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The Wrong Bastard: Midnighter, moral self-sacrifice, and September 11th

 
  

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We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:03 / 02.09.02
A black-clad man stands at the end of a long corridor. He has seen his home destroyed, his family and friends hurt and killed, his life, ruined. He is not, by nature, a good man. He is intemperate, prideful, stubborn. He tries hard to hold onto a rage which frightens even those he loves, and his broodiness, his emotional inaccessibility, and his didactic, inflexible understanding of good and evil is sorely out of whack with the world in which others move. He has fought battles, perhaps done dark deeds dirty cheap, but he has put aside the tools of his unsavoury trade and sought a better life, something to calm the barking demons of his soul.

Until now.

Because someone just Pissed Off The Wrong Bastard.


It's a familiar scene: someone who touches the dark side on behalf of the rest of us, does bad things so the good can rest easy, without confronting the awfulness of the world. In Tolkein, it's the Rangers who fight orcs in the darkness. In mid 20th Century America, it was the fantasy the CIA had about itself - they did the unspeakable so that the unthinkable could not occurr. It's a rationale still at work today. It's a favourite of movies and comic books. It's a construction of the male from Westerns (Shane) to spy movies (James Bond) to modern thrillers (The Last Boy Scout). Someone lives in the shadows so that we don't have to. "A man's gotta do..."

The notion is simple: one person sacrifices his or her moral virtue so that a greater moral standard may be maintained. That person does wrong so that a society of right may be preserved. Except that this is spurious. A 'right' society that depends on wrong actions is dirty.

Briefly: the man for whom it has all become too much, and the man who knows the seamy underside - are both archetypically male and profoundly American. He (though these days, it isn't always a man, even in fiction) can be seen in the Gangster movies of the Depression, the man striking out to stand high. In those early movies, they Gangster got his just deserts, and society struck back - public morality demanded no less. In the early westerns, a similar character could be found - a drifter, a gentle, regretful man who can't settle, who turned out to be the Wrong Man to Cross - though not yet the Wrong Bastard. This character would do what was right without doing what was wrong. He drew second, never shot anyone in the back, and he fought fair. He was just better. Later, we have the Dirty Harry movies and other, bleaker films like First Blood, where the lawman or justice-seeker was outnumbered and alone against an inimical society. That character began to draw on the Gangster, and the lawless but just westerner, and in a resurgeance of noir, the Wrong Bastard was born - Schwarzenegger, Stallone, and later Bruce Willis in Last Boy Scout and Last Man Standing. Clint Eastwood put the seal on it with the nihilistic and fascinating Unforgiven.

This is the cultural heritage on which America now draws in search of a self-definition after the massive attack of last September. The sense of right-thinking which accompanies the earlier films bleeds into the newer identity. There is no history, there is only the inversion of the world, the natural state - September 10th last year - and the response to it.

The cry goes up - You Just Pissed Off The Wrong Bastard.

[This is far from complete. Help me.]
 
 
Seth
21:32 / 02.09.02
Interesting that you start by using so many characters from film and television. I've just finished re-watching the final ten episodes of Deep Space Nine, which has a great deal of characters who perform unspeakable acts for the "greater good" (Kira, Garak, Sisko, Damar, Sloan): people who defend their way of life by any means necessary (Kira's defense of the need to kill people who are loyal to her cause - but haven't taken up arms - in order to hurt her enemies is one example amongst many. In her eyes, she fights for the freedom of her countrymen, even if she has to kill them to obtain it).

These are quite distinct from the other type you hint at. For example, Clint in Unforgiven lost his values when he returned to his inner darkness - I don't think his actions constitute those of a man who is able to go to further extremes than most because of his values. Remember - this is an amoral vicious psychopath who left his brutal past behind because he was in love with a woman who made him a better man.

So are we talking rabid gun-totin' mother/fatherfuckers who just so happen to be identified with a cause we agree with/sympathise with/understand (or exist in such an ambiguous world that it's impossible to take sides), or rabid gun-totin' mother/fatherfuckers trying to justify what they do as right? Or both?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
07:33 / 03.09.02
Clint in Unforgiven is reformed. That's sort of the whole point. He's married a good Christian girl, had kids, he's off the bottle. He's got the dream. And then his wife dies and he needs the money for his kids and at the wrong moment exactly, he's presented with what appears to be a Just Cause - the torture of a prostitute. All the same, he holds onto his temper and his salvation until...they kill his friend. They push him too far and in doing so, unleash the hell within.

They piss off the Wrong Bastard. And whilst he may still be morally empty, his actions have the ring of justice to them. And his fall is presented as tragic rather than evil.

What I'm talking about on the one hand is the self-image these characters offer: the model of a person with a breaking point, beyond which the engagement is total - and I'm sure you can see why I'm think about that in September 2002.

And then there's the notion of the 'tame bastard': the avenger whose peronal moral standing (say "I won't kill civilians") is sacrificed on behalf of the greater good - more what you're talking about with Deep Space 9. The Tame Bastard is a national option - when states get pissed, and they want to demonstrate that they are the Wrong State to piss off, they send in their Tame Bastards. As it were.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:52 / 03.09.02
Maybe of interest, maybe no: DC forced Millar to change the Midnighter's line from its original incarnation, "You just pissed off the wrong faggot." Which line pushes through into yet another territory, I think.

It's Nietzsche, isn't it—"When you gaze into the Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."

And the caution against fighting monsters lest ye become one yourself—though I can't recall who said that one originally.

The Wrong Bastard story is a story about scrifice—the Bastard sacrifices his own shot at happiness and peace of mind for the greater good—and it finds its highest expression in the Christ—a literal bastard, a Man of Sorrows and acquainted with grief, suffering untold agonies, fighting cloaked battles with the Devil himself, sweating blood with the weight of the world's sin upon his shoulders, a bitter man, difficult to know, given to anger (ask the moneychangers) and tears, racked by torment and temptation and eventually descending to the dead and kicking Satan's arse, breaking down the gates of Hell and saving the souls of the living—and all of it done in secret, in the silence of the desert or in the darkness of the afterworld.

It's no accident, I think, that ubermachbadass comixdude Frank Miller is working on a graphic novel of the Jesus story.

More coherent response when I've had more time to think.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
17:26 / 03.09.02
Jesus has the inestimable advantage in this situation that his grip on morality is rather stronger than the average. It's a fascinating line of thinking, Jack, but it's one you'd have to work to convince me of. Christ is not 'pushed too far' - rather, he comes with a mission. He's not sacrificing his salvation or his grip on morality, but rather his bodily existence.

This is a rather more mithraic image - the warrior goaded past endurance - Sampson, perhaps, if you want a Bible story.

The 'wrong faggot' is interesting, but I don't think it alters my position in this context: it's a Rambo's headband moment. It signals that the worm (Wyrm?) is turning. It signals the moment where our hero will reveal his just wrath.

"What are you expecting?"

"World War Three."

(From 'Commando')
 
 
grant
18:04 / 03.09.02
How much of this image is tied to the end of the Cold War - the idea of Mutual Assured Destruction becoming fictionalized and mythologized....
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:36 / 04.09.02
And the caution against fighting monsters lest ye become one yourself—though I can't recall who said that one originally.

Uncle Friedrich again; BGE, I think.

Jesus as the ur-wrong bastard is an interesting one, but might I suggest instead that the wrong bastard is a confection of the epic? Achilles is very definitely "pushed to the edge....pushed to the limit", and his rage assumes daemonic proportions, which I think might be one of the key ideas of the wrong bastard.

However, I would suggest that John Rambo and, say, Johns McClean (sp?) or Matrix are doing different things, in a way. Matrix and McClean are indeed, as is traditional, pushed to the edge...pushed to the limit.... but are pushed by being innocently dumped into situations where extreme reactions are required to reestablish the status quo. McClean just wants to be with his wife at Christmas. Matrix just wants to be living in happy retirement with his daughter. It so happens that in order to achieve this they have to kill an *awful* lot of people, but essentially the mise-en-scene is lowered around them by evil stagehands.

Rambo, from the eponymous film onwards, is a civilising hero in the mould of Theseus or Heracles. He seeks out or is directed to the problem (Communists), and methodically destroys it. In a sense, this seems far closer to the idea fo the state-sponsored wrong bastard, the man who undertakes to destroy, kill, cheat, lie and torture in the interests of his country. His behaviour may resemble that of a "mad dog", but his perception is moderated by a set objective, and the knowledge that he walked into this situation; Rambo parachutes into Hell, whereas Hell parachutes *onto* John Matrix.

So, is there a difference between the man who is pushed too far (beyond the capacity for "normal ethical behaviour"?)and the man who undertakes in the service of his country to behave *like* a man who has been pushed too far (ignoring "normal ethical behaviour"?), on behalf of a state seeking to advance its self-interest.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:15 / 04.09.02
Haus: I wouldn't put Die Hard into this category. Maclean doesn't rage, he's not pushed too far, this isn't about revenge for him, he's just in the wrong place at the wrong time. He's much more in the vein of the Sherif in a Golden Age western. Maclean is good wholesome US values fighting back in the pinch. Importantly, he's a cop, not a soldier.

Rambo in 'First Blood' is absolutely the 'pushed too far' guy - in fact "Don't push me" is his signature line. After that (and extremely interestingly in the context of the link I was making between the individual and the state being the Wrong Bastard) Rambo is taken on by the intelligence services to go and do the bad things which need doing for America's overall good. The State identifies a Wrong Bastard, and deploys him to make the point that it, too, is the wrong entity to cross. He enters a moral and a physical dark for the good of the state.

Matrix (the main character in Commando) also acts in anger. He is a dangerous man who has retired to the desert/heartland (very much in the US dramatic tradition) to find his peace. Then his house is destroyed, his daughter kidnapped, and he must act. Matrix has more than one goal, however: he intends not only to rescue the girl, but also to remove the threat for ever. Total war is declared. Where Maclean is reactive - he doesn't set out to execute every single hostage-taker - Matrix announces his intention to kill every one of his enemies. Not only is he conducting a rescue, he's also both destroying his enemy - for practical and personal reasons - and making a point that he is absolutely not a man you can mess with.

I'm looking at a link between the Wrong Bastard, and the state deploying him, acting itself like a man who has been 'pushed too far'. This ties in, I suppose, with the threads about national identity and masculinity also running in the Head Shop at the moment. A State will be a reflection of its notions of individual conduct, after all. So the prevalence of the Wrong Bastard in popular literature is a significant thing.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
13:15 / 04.09.02
I'm kind of surprised nobody's mentioned the Saint of Killers yet, but never mind.

As for State-sponsored Bastards, I always worry about stuff like that. The problem is that the morality of the actions is kind of kicked around between the two. The Bastard depends on the State to define the bad guys(...only following orders...), while the State can similarly wash its hands of the morality of the acts employed ("...we didn't expect..."). Ultimately, it is all too easy for everybody to avoid thinking about what is happening. The Solo Bastard, however, makes the decision independently however oversimplified the reasoning. Incomparable, methinks.

Swinging back to the topic for a bit, I'm still thinking about the "Wrong Bastard corrupts what ze tries to defend" question. But I was wondering if it makes a difference if the Bastard knowingly gives up his place in society in order to get justice or whatever. In other words, can the Bastard create justice by confining the corruption to himself?

Hmmm, I'll try to work on that.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:23 / 04.09.02
To bring it right back to the beginning again: all of these male action bound figures, including Maclean follow the American dream, they are part of the frontier, survivalist aspect of US culture, they don't exist in reality but the culture requires them to be real. Francis Ford Coppola on why bad American cinema continues
'It isn't the films which are the stuff of dreams; it's America, which has become a kind of huge Hollywood' (Virilio, The Information Bomb)
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:47 / 04.09.02
The alternate model to "The Wrong Bastard" is the "Black Hawk Down" model, wherein the Special Forces (those who do the dirtiest jobs) are portrayed as ultra-compentent, egoless team players. I haven't seen the movie for BHD, but in the book (and its semi-sequel, Killing Pablo, which might be more apposite) much is made of the battery of psychological testing candidates for Special Forces must go through*. In stark contrast to "The Wrong Bastard," the model for these guys is a church-going family man who enjoys chess, whose job just so happens to consist of killing people in dubious circumstances.

"The Black Hawk Down" team (and it isn't just one person) have no doubts about the morality of their actions. From where they're standing, they're not doing anything "bad" or evil. It's just a job that someone has to do. I think this is the mentality of the Bush admin. overall, that they're the only people with both the moral clarity and power to Do the Right Thing. This model is even more prenicious than the Wrong Bastard model precisely because of the lack of the psychological conflict the Bastard goes through before he's "pushed to far."


* the four recent wife-killings by Spec. Forces ops based at Fort Bragg might give the lie to this image of the men as rocks. However, reports are tending to link this violence not with the "bastardy" these guys do/are trained to do, but rather with the well-known side effects of anti-malarial drug they were probably exposed to.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
14:10 / 04.09.02
t.o.d.d.:
the model for these guys is a church-going family man who enjoys chess, whose job just so happens to consist of killing people in dubious circumstances.

I haven't read Black Hawk Down, but I've known some Special Forces guys and the above is definitely a gloss on the actual criteria. They choose guys who can be relied on to follow orders and who really want to kill people -- their morals don't really enter into it.

As for The Wrong Bastard... isn't it important that no one know what he did (except the audience) and perhaps his devestated love interest? Because if anyone found out and could accept this, then he wasn't the Wrong Bastard, he was the right one. Compare John McClean with Jake from the Chinatown movies, or perhaps Snake Pliskin.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
14:23 / 04.09.02
well, yeah Qalyn, the reality is surely a lot more complicated than the portrayal, but we're talking about portrayals and archetypes here, not reality.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:38 / 04.09.02
Mmm, we're talking about both.

Morlock:

The Solo Bastard, however, makes the decision independently however oversimplified the reasoning. Incomparable, methinks.

I'm not saying they're the same, I'm thinking the existence of the Wrong Bastard as a shape in popular fiction and culture lends itself to a State (deploying the standards shapes individuals have access to within that culture) behaving in the same way. You bomb my fleet? Right, then the gloves are off! You pushed me too far! It's not that they're comparable, but that the state version is possible because of the individual figure. Rambo is an American legend - he embodies something America likes to believe about itself: that it's a peaceful nation, but you better by God not cross the line...

Continuum. They feed one another, they evolve out of each other.

Swinging back to the topic for a bit, I'm still thinking about the "Wrong Bastard corrupts what ze tries to defend" question. But I was wondering if it makes a difference if the Bastard knowingly gives up his place in society in order to get justice or whatever. In other words, can the Bastard create justice by confining the corruption to himself?

No. That's precisely my point. There's history, there are relationships. If action is needed which requires dirty deeds done dirt cheap, to save a society, that society is directly implicated, however unknowing it may be. You can't voluntarily divorce yourself in this way.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
16:06 / 04.09.02
"If action is needed which requires dirty deeds done dirt cheap, to save a society, that society is directly implicated, however unknowing it may be."

Hmm, I beg to differ. I believe that an individual who takes "dirty deeds" on in the name of protecting their society (i.e. "sinking to the level of the enemy") can exile themselves from that society, thus taking the implication wholly unto themselves. That is to say - they exit the society, protect it, and can never go back. The society itself remains whole - the "hero" is corrupted.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
16:24 / 04.09.02
Are we assuming that there is an actual moral 'material' here to be stained, corrupted, or otherwise affected by the actions of Our Antihero? 'Cuz it kind of sounds that way. If the portrayed Wrong Bastard does his dirty deed and no one finds out about it, then the axiom in the thread abstract doesn't seem to work -- something bad happened but didn't drag 'good' anywhere.

I have some trouble leaving that unexamined, anyway. How can you have anything good without having bad things, too? What if good deeds have bad consequences? Does that ruin the good deed?
 
 
Jack Fear
16:37 / 04.09.02
Ray Fawkes saith:

...an individual who takes "dirty deeds" on in the name of protecting their society (i.e. "sinking to the level of the enemy") can exile themselves from that society, thus taking the implication wholly unto themselves. That is to say - they exit the society, protect it, and can never go back.

Which is the archetype of the shaman, isn't it... outside the society that he ostensibly serves/protects: paying a terrible price for his power, and part of that price is isolation. The sin-eater: who will dare to bury him when he dies?

Maybe that's it? The Bastard descends to the depths and gives up moral purity in exchange for Power?

God, I'm getting embarrassing flashbacks to the Stephen Donaldson's Thomas Covenant books—the argument is that innocence is wonderful, but it's impotent: perfect innocence = perfect inaction—that to take effective action is in itself to lose innocence—because we cannot possibly know all the ramifications of our actions for good or ill before we take them, and so run the risk of inadvertently doing ill.

Which actually takes me back to Nick's original post, where he talks about the Bastard's "didactic, inflexible understanding of good and evil." That doesn't ring true to me: surely the Bastard, of all people, understands moral relativism, ends justifying means, and the greater good served by his individual heinous actions?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:59 / 04.09.02
Ray/Qalyn: in the context of a society deploying bastards on its own behalf - if a government sends assassins to kill a foreign leader, as the US has done with Castro several times - that society cannot then help but be besmirched. The self-perception which says 'I descend into the moral mire so you don't have to' is nonsense. Sponsor an action and be party to it. If that sponsorship is granted blindly by a person or a public - 'I allow my government to do these things but I don't wish to know about them' - more fool they.

In the context of the original Wrong Bastard, then yes, the moral decay is their own - unless their action is necessary to preserve a society which has generated its own nemesis, in which case, again, the link is made.

Jack: the moral rigidity thing applies in some cases and not others. I'm not (yet) propounding a solid theory, here. Yes, the Bastard gives up purity in exchange for power - in exchange, actually, for the power which is derived from total committal. But the 'greater good' is not served, in the sense that his victory for 'good folk' includes the fall of those folk from 'goodness'.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
17:02 / 04.09.02
Which is the archetype of the shaman, isn't it... outside the society that he ostensibly serves/protects: paying a terrible price for his power, and part of that price is isolation. The sin-eater: who will dare to bury him when he dies?

Yes, exactly.

In modern western society, there are several professions mapped onto this archetype - the soldier (ref: countless films, as discussed here, in addition to actual treatment of late twentieth-century veterans of war) - the agent of espionage (ref: films again, and the well-document isolation of cold-war operatives) - and the research scientist (ref: those who undertake animal testing for pharmaceutical advance, for one). Whether or not those professions ought to be mapped onto the shamanic mold is a matter of deep import to this discussion, I think. Can they do bad in the name of good? Can they do it without implicating those of us who benefit, but do not directly participate? Are they exiles? Should they be?

In my opinon, the matter is more complex than a "didactic, inflexible understanding of good and evil" - nor is it, as Mr. Fear suggests, a matter of moral relativism. I believe that one thing these people must set aside, when choosing the self-imposed exile, is the terms of moralistic function. A soldier cannot conceive of good and evil in relative terms - they must address battle in terms of "destroy or be destroyed". Facing a potentially deadly threat is a situation devoid of morality. This is precisely why the truly proficient warriors (many of which are the subject of the discussed films) can never rejoin the society they defend - they have unlearned morality, even if only for a time, and their actions cannot withstand the moral scrutiny which a responsible society must engage in.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
17:06 / 04.09.02
Nick posted while I was in the midst of my last post. I would like to address one of his points:

in the context of a society deploying bastards on its own behalf - if a government sends assassins to kill a foreign leader, as the US has done with Castro several times - that society cannot then help but be besmirched.

I disagree. Hypothetically, let's imagine a member of society who engages in assassination without the knowledge or consent of their citizenry - with the end result of protecting their way of life. Is the citizenry then besmirched by that individual's action? What circumstances would allow for the continued innocence of the society?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
17:43 / 04.09.02
I believe that one thing these people must set aside, when choosing the self-imposed exile, is the terms of moralistic function.

I'm sure that's true - and it's true, not only of soldiers, but also of business people, party functionaries, bureaucrats, and so on. These people are asked to set aside human constraints and the full spectrum of responses to become specialists in one arena - the implication being that the organism they serve will take care of the others for itself, or that it does not operate on a moral level (for example) and need not concern itself with such concerns. Vide the recent ruling that the job of corporate execs was to feed the company - and no other goal legitimate - so any attempt to bypass legislation hampering the company was not only acceptable but expected.

However - any organisation which calls upon functionaries to set moral standards aside to serve it must be suspect. The State is the sum of its actions, as much as anything else. You cannot claim to be a just state if you do not function justly. You cannot claim to be an innocent state if you engage in activities which are not innocent.

And organisations which require functionaries to narrow their field of reference to a single task must fulfill their tacit promise to look after the others, be those organisations nations, companies, charities, families, or whatever.

Hypothetically, let's imagine a member of society who engages in assassination without the knowledge or consent of their citizenry - with the end result of protecting their way of life. Is the citizenry then besmirched by that individual's action?

If the citizenry sponsor the activities of a secret service who in turn sponsor this assassin, they are complicit.

If the job actually was the only way for that way of life to be protected, then that way of life must answer for this need in its make-up, and any who hew to it must give account.

The moral argument preceeding the crime is in all cases false - if this thing genuinely must be done in order to safeguard that society, that society is not innocent of the crime. If the thing does not need doing, then it's just a murder.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
18:02 / 04.09.02
Mm, I'm not making myself clear, I think. When did a good thing ever happen without a more-or-less-equally bad thing happening in some relation to it (either preceding it, rising from the same circumstances, or consequent to it)? If there's anything interesting about the Wrong Bastard, it's his inevitability. It took a Civil War to get an Emancipation Proclamation -- which brought about the Reconstruction, with all the strong-arm economics and terrorist action that entailed. Society is not implicated when some military faction tries to assassinate Castro, because "society" has no personal honor and "society" doesn't make decisions. It's a reactive organism, like a sea anenome, and produces what it needs to compete -- or doesn't, as the case may be. Our personal morals only effect society when enough of us make the same moral determinations that it moves society in a particular direction. "Good" doesn't get dragged anywhere; "bad" is good's shadow -- that's why it's said that both good and bad actions generate karma.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
18:06 / 04.09.02
The moral argument preceeding the crime is in all cases false - if this thing genuinely must be done in order to safeguard that society, that society is not innocent of the crime.

I believe that is an unrealistically harsh assessment - one that does not allow for the survival of innocents in the face of violent outside forces.

This is my response:

The society can be innocent of the crime if they abhor the activity as a crime and acknowledge that he who commits the crime cannot be considered an innocent.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:58 / 04.09.02
Nick: our base assumption, as stated in the abstract--that "You can't do bad in the name of good, you just drag good down with you"--puts us in some rather "rigid and inflexible" territory from the get-go. For one thing it sets aside the notion of progress, of making horrendous bloody gains at tremendous expense so that future generations may reap the benefits--of fighting war to end all wars.

All those Bastards are fighting for the hope of a better future, born out of the blood and stench of the present. Any Utopia will end up being built on human bones: if you can't accept that, you are either crushed beneath the wheel of Progress like Rorschach, or you opt out, like the Ones who Walk Away from Omelas.

The notion we're being sold, of course, is that the larger society can remain somehow innocent of these things. But would it be even desirable to remain innocent, to remain children forever? The mythical society of Omelas, an empire of splendor and decency built on a foundation of human misery, has as its rite of passage the end of that innocence: its dark secret is an open secret. One by one, its children learn of their society's dark underbelly and so become adults. Their initial shock and anger is the beginning of wisdom: their eventual acceptance is its flowering.

I keep straying from the topic here, returning to the scapegoat, the sacrifice, rather than the exile: I can't seem to bend my thoughts properly in that direction without first exploring this one. As a result, I've a feeling we're on close-but-parallel paths. Yet more thought required.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:23 / 05.09.02
Qalyn: "Good" doesn't get dragged anywhere; "bad" is good's shadow -- that's why it's said that both good and bad actions generate karma.

Karma in the spiritual sense isn't worth much to politics - it focuses on the individual, and carries across lives, rather than manifesting in the present, so it will seem random to anyone inside temporal existance.

Karma in the rather more Californian/Rule of Threefold Return sense may or may not be a reality, but if it is, all it says in this context is that if a society is protected by violent 'Bastard' actions, they will in turn be visited on that society. Which makes my point rather strongly.

Ray: The society can be innocent of the crime if they abhor the activity as a crime and acknowledge that he who commits the crime cannot be considered an innocent.

If the only way for a society to continue to exist is the committing of a terrible crime, and that crime is committed, and the society continues to exist, that society is guilty. That's the genesis of "It's dirty work, but someone's got to do it." The society's formulation is criminal by definition - its condemnation of the crime - and the agent - is merely a condemnation of itself.

Jack: Any Utopia will end up being built on human bones

Utopia will not be built on human bones. Utopia will be built after those bones have been laid to rest, if at all. The timeline of horror reaches forward to repeat itself. Progress comes when someone says "we're breaking out of this pattern - we're going to respond with tolerance, not vengeance" - when someone opts not to become the Bastard.

One by one, its children learn of their society's dark underbelly and so become adults. Their initial shock and anger is the beginning of wisdom: their eventual acceptance is its flowering.

This is the same rather pernicious notion in another form - that you can't be a grown-up until you accept that the world is a place of suffering. I believe that's the first step to 'acceptable losses'. Your wisdom here is realpolitik on a domestic level.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
11:19 / 05.09.02
Nick, you've fixated on the wrong image from my post. Society isn't harmed by bastards because it has no 'karma' (in the Californian sense). It doesn't make decisions or want or do things. Or deserve things, for that matter.
 
 
Jack Fear
11:50 / 05.09.02
This is the same rather pernicious notion in another form - that you can't be a grown-up until you accept that the world is a place of suffering. I believe that's the first step to 'acceptable losses'. Your wisdom here is realpolitik on a domestic level.

...

I'm going to have to cut my losses and opt out of the conversation at this point.

It's been grand, all.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
12:33 / 05.09.02
The society's formulation is criminal by definition - its condemnation of the crime - and the agent - is merely a condemnation of itself.

You do realize that by your rather strict attribution of guilt, it is entirely impossible for a morally innocent or upstanding society to survive unless it is exclusively in a world of peers. If there is one "bad" group in the bunch, the rest are implicitly doomed to corruption or extinction. A pretty hopeless view of the world, if you ask me.

Progress comes when someone says "we're breaking out of this pattern - we're going to respond with tolerance, not vengeance" - when someone opts not to become the Bastard.

I'm beginning to get the feeling that we're talking about two different scenarios here. Where I am (and have been) discussing the perception of the exiled hero, set apart to perform morally unacceptable acts in order to protect an essentially moral society, you seem to be breaking it down further - into a tolerance/vengeance duality. What about acts that don't fall into those divisions? What about simple destruction of an aggressive foe in battle?

Furthermore, I would like to put something forward for consideration. In your hypothetical society of tolerance, how can anything be a crime? If all threats - including the exterior threat of aggression - are to be tolerated and thus, one would hope, subdued (or subsumed?) then doesn't the question of crime and guilt become moot? Doesn't a person who commits murder earn and deserve as much tolerance as any "guilt-free citizen"? In that case, is this discussion not rendered moot, since differentiation between "good" people and "bad" people serves no practical purpose? A tolerant society, to extrapolate from your statements, must be guilty of that which it tolerates. Hence, as I stated before, the "innocent society" is fundamentally impossible in anything other than a static world - impossible and, in fact, irrelevant in terms of aspiration.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
13:44 / 05.09.02
...

Nick, it sounds like you want us to accept your initial (demonstrably) arguable statement quoted above from the thread abstract, and then to discuss how your Wrong Bastard concept is promulgated and accepted, specifically by Western societies. Strikes me that by refusing to accept that the premise is faulty, or even arguable, you're barring the only interesting discussion to come from the idea.

However - in the interests of trying to stay on topic - what about Pearl Harbour, and the sleeping giant? That's early Forties - long before most of your quoted cinematic archetypes kicked in. Where's the difference... unless you're saying that the reaction of the US to Pearl Harbour, leading inexorably to Nagasaki/Hiroshima, was in some way less of a 'Wrong Bastard' style response?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:45 / 05.09.02
Jack tb: I'd appreciate it if people would take that as a working supposition, but if they won't, I don't mind. I just won't argue it terribly strenuously, because that's not a discussion which interests me right now. It's old ground - especially between you and me, if I remember.

On the other hand, the abstract isn't a very accurate summation. I was throwing ideas out left and right and hoping someone would help me formulate some kind of pathway through it - as should be very apparent from the first post. I simply didn't know what to write in it, so I wrote that. In retrospect, perhaps a mistake, but there you are.

The Pearl Harbour bombing took place long before Rambo, but not before the Depression and the resultant gangster chic in film, or the western, which provides much of the other material. And of course, there are any number of earlier heros of mighty rage. But actually, the Pearl Harbour experience may well be formative of the Wrong Bastard. If so, it bodes ill for the present situation. As has been pointed out, Pearl Harbour took place off US soil, and the casualties, though significant, were largely military. The US response was comprehensive, to say the least.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
17:33 / 05.09.02
Hmm...if we're looking for the origins of the "Wrong Bastard" motif, I think we'd be remiss if we assumed the phenomenon began in the twentieth century.

Right off the top of my head, I can think of three Shakespearean tragedies that examine the "Wrong Bastard" from different angles: Titus Andronicus, Romeo and Juliet, and Hamlet all have elements of this archetype in their leads (excepting Juliet).

The Furies of greek myth were "Wrong Bastards" of a sort - they exacted vengeance in the name of law. Do they qualify?

To imagine that the phenomenon is either exclusively modern or exclusively Western is false. These immediate references leap to mind from my experience. No doubt there are world-wide myths showcasing the vengeful protector, exiled from morality, "doing bad in the name of good".
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
07:39 / 06.09.02
Ray:

Not convinced by those references. Hamlet was tortured all the way to the end, had to be shunted along by the ghost, and there's no sense of his being 'pushes too far' and going outside the bounds of ordinary behaviour - this is in many ways he would be expected to behave, given the circumstances. That his programme of revenge also includes pretending to be mad and ruining his own life is due mostly to the emotional damage inflicted on him by the notion that his mother is untrue. He's not all that stable.

Romeo and Juliette, similarly, is a story of emotions out of control, and of plots and counterplots tripping over one another. Romeo is pushed too far by the death of Mercutio, but he retains a desire for Juliette and his anger is rather locally directed at Tybalt. There's no danger of his marching into the Duke's throneroom and taking him down, nor even of his going after House Capulet all by himself. His rage is a thing of his own doom, not everyone else's.

I don't remember Titus, so I can't comment.

But Ray, all of these are Tragedies. They're presented as disasters, unlike the modern stories of the Bastard, where we're being sold the mayhem as a positive, albeit with a gloss of "don't try this at home".

The rage of the Wrong Bastard is perhaps more like the rage of a God - "this thing has happened, and here I will lay waste to anyone and anything which prevents me from my just but terrible revenge."

Familiar?
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
08:12 / 06.09.02
Ok, I see what you're getting at... I'm not familiar with many Westerns of the period which were concerned with the 'Wrong Bastard' idea, though, and you'd have to explain where gangster chic comes into the equation - possibly with something on how you can measure the extent to which fictive discourse affected the culture of the US, for example, before the advent of the blockbuster. I'm not convinced the equation isn't the other way around... as you suggest, if this is a fairly recent phenomenon, then perhaps it's formed from and through the... comprehensive (wonderful euphemism. I'm nicking that for use in other areas of conversation, if you don't mind)... response to the Pearl Harbour assault. The nuclear threat that had a massive part in spawning the Cold War was for a little while purely from the USA. And there's always a certain swagger from the US Government in response to any sort of threat, in terms of the military or purely to the collective ego. Hence the insistence that they can and will, if necessary, act unilaterally...

That's following in line with your own assumptions. Isn't there another assumption implicit in the word 'wrong', though? Which actions are symptomatic of a (temporary) abdication of morals, and which are justifiable actions in response to the (so far nebulously defined) element of being pushed too far? Is any kind of declaration of war in response to an event like Pearl Harbour or the World Trade Centre a 'Wrong Bastard' solution?

(I was thinking of Titus Andronicus myself, by the way, Ray... Titus is pushed too far, and then we have a gleeful black comedy of cannibalism and mutilation as revenge. I've always had a hard time seeing Titus as tragedy, myself... it's enjoying itself far too much, in a grand guignol sense.)
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:53 / 06.09.02
Huh. Maybe I should go see Titus again, then. Or better, read it, since I won't get a stage version which hasn't been affected by the culture we're in.

...the experience of the gangster as an experience of art is universal to Americans. There is almost nothing we understand better or react to more readily or with quicker intelligence...the gangster speaks for us, expressing that part of the American psyche which rejects the qualities and demands of modern life, which rejects "Americanism" itself.

The gangster is the man of the city, with the city's language and knowledge, with its queer and dishonest skills and is terrible daring, carrying his life in his hands like a placard, like a club. For everyone else, there is at least the possibility of another world - in that happier American culture which the gangster denies, the city does not really exist; it is only a crowded and more brightly lit country - but for the gangster there is only the city; he must inhabit it in order to personify it; not the real city, but the dangerous and sad city of the imagination which is so much more important, which is the modern world. And the gangster - though there are real gangsters - is also, and primarily, a creature of the imagination. The real city, one might say, produces only criminals; the imaginary city produces the gangster: he is what we want to be and what we are afraid to become.


Robert Warshow, The Immediate Experience.

For Warshow, the gangster is a product of the Depression, the period where America was forced to confront the possibility that mere hard work would not always assure your American dream. Sometimes, the world just came back at you with disaster. The fictional response to this was a number of shapes who lived outside the conventional world, who defied the rules. The gangster stood head and shoulders above other men, stood out, one way or another. In order to be successful, he was prepared to do anything to anyone. He narrativised himself ("Mother of God," says the dying Rico Bandello in 'Little Caesar', "is this the end of Rico?") and made a stand against a world which did not care, a system of crushing odds. For his crimes, and for his standing out, he had to be cut down, lest he become part of that oppressive landscape from which he rose.

Divorced from his architecture, moved into the future, you have a character who will not quit, won't back off, and will do anything, who is somehow laudable even as he is reviled. Naturally, one looks for situations where this attracted and cathartic evil might not have to suffer the gangster's ultimate fate - just execution.

...[The gangster] appeals to that side of all of us which refuses to believe in the "normal" possibilities of happiness and achievement; the gangster is the "no" to that great American "yes" which is stamped so big over our official culture and yet has so little to do with the way we actually live our lives.

Ibid.

The city is a place of confusion and corruption in American film, and protagonists must frequently refresh themselves by taking a trip to either Washington, to engage with the political heritage (the Constitution, the Washington Monument etc.) or the heartland, where the soul, rather than the intellect, is healed. The creature of the heartland is the Cowboy, ultimately a man of repose, without ambition, yet possessed of qualities of his own:

...he can ride a horse faultlessly, keep his countenance in the face of death, and draw his gun a little faster and shoot a little straighter than anyone he is likely to meet. These are sharpley defined acquirements, giving to the figure of the Westerner an apparent moral clarity whci corresponds to the clarity of his physical image against his bare landscape...

Ibid.

The Westerner has no ambition, he simply is - a natural force, responsive, powerful. Where the gangster is out of control, and likely pre-emptive, the Westerner is unshakable.

There is no suggestion, however, that he draws his gun reluctantly. The Westerner could not fulfill himself if the moment did not finally come when he can shoot his enemy down. But because that moment is so thoroughly the expression of his being, it must be kept pure. He will not violate the accepted forms of combat though by doing so he could save a city.

Ibid.

The Westerner does what he has to do.

Arguably, it is the merger of these shapes - the Westerner's control and his purity, which requires that he shoot second, and the Gangster's rage and lack of control, his unpredictable, scattershot fury, which produces the Wrong Bastard. The transformation of the Westerner's calm into the Gangster's vengeful, shotgun deadliness produces a fearsome opponent: one who will wait until a line is crossed, then engage in a conflict which is total, without restraint, and pure in its execution.

I'd say there was always a hermeneutic reinsertion in the arena of media and society. Each feeds shapes into the other. America reinvents itself with each generation; it is, at root, a nation founded on words, on the American Way, on an ethos, rather than a history of land and conflict and kings. So the movies are more important than they might be elsewhere - and have become so; there's nowhere else in the world where the movies wield such power, as we know.

Gotta go - hope that's interesting stuff to chew on.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
13:00 / 06.09.02
Wait a minute - it feels like the focus of the conversation is shifting here. Are we talking about whether or not bad can be done in the name of good (and how the notion that it can is "sold" to us), or are we talking about exclusively positive portrayals of revenge? They aren't the same thing.

I would argue, by the way, that Romeo and Juliet is indeed a portrayal of your "Wrong Bastards". Romeo, having lost a friend, commits a thoughtless murder - but one that spares his house further humiliation and bloodshed at the hands of (the established aggressor) Tybalt. Mercutio, mortally wounded, strikes out at the system of conflict that surrounds him and (some would argue) utters the curse that brings down its two proudest children. It is stated explicitly that this tragedy ends the conflict. Both "bad acts" with "good ends", no? Just not for them...

Hamlet, likewise, plots and executes the destruction of the "bad" man - his uncle - and in the process takes down everything that stands in his way. It ends badly for Hamlet, yes, but has he "done good" by removing a usurper from the throne?

You'll note that in many of the examples you've cited (most notably Westerns) the hero often suffers in the end. Even John Rambo is unable to escape his life of violence - recall that all he wanted in the first film was to pass peacefully through town and maybe stop for something to eat - and is forced back into a warrior's existence. In "Unforgiven", the nihilistic frenzy of the climax hardly seems to lead to happiness for anyone involved.

To return to the abstract for a moment, I would state that the notion can only be "sold" to us if we aren't inclined to believe that bad can be done in the name of good. I'm still convinced that it can, and believe that a worldview that does not accept that is extremely limited.
 
  

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