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No books matter

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
the Fool
23:08 / 29.08.02
I'd rather get to know a real person who is present with me than some fictional character.

Is getting to know someone over the internet in the present or real? Are we fictional? To respond to people via a message board requires reading, a lot of it. What difference is that to a book? The book of barbelith has many characters, some real, some fictional and new pages are written everyday.

And Auszilla, you have been reading this book, and other books like it, for some time now. Pot kettle black you immoral virtual book reader you...
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
04:08 / 30.08.02
This thread reminds me of when you get the people who are to protect us from what they feel is wrong...they don't like it, so they think YOU shouldn't do it. Here, it's the absurd example of reading books (like eating babies was for people in the 1700's...) is used to make that point. The same arguement "I don't do it, but I know it's wrong" is the basis of our drug policy in the US, most censorship, and a lot of laws based on morals rather than ethics.

Or am I Thomas Paine-ing it too much?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
06:17 / 30.08.02
Aus: Personally, I'd rather get to know a real person who is present with me than some fictional character.

You don't know that. You've never read a book, remember? So you're talking about a preference you cannot yet have established. It's like saying 'I don't like chocolate' on the basis of having had kiwi.

If it is a description of a real person, what makes you think authors are any less likely to know someone for an extremely long time and get only the vaguest sense of who they are?

Well, for fictional characters, there's the simple fact that no one else can know them until they're on the page. In non-fiction, the person concerned may be dead, or not accessible to you. And finally, that's part of the skill of being a non-fiction writer - gathering the impression and conveying it. What they show you and how they show it should create a body of understanding which goes beyong what you see to an ability to speculate about the moments not covered in the book.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:52 / 30.08.02
aus... "a Catch-22"... what's one o' them?
 
 
Tom Coates
10:45 / 30.08.02
Aus: "It's easy for the privileged and wealthy people on our planet to consider their own pleasure over the health and lives of others." Emma Goldman: "If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution" The implication being that dedicating one's existence to the purely mechanical at the expense of the aesthetic, pleasurable or edifying makes one robotic or animalistically inhuman - like a thing, rather than a person. In essence you're advocating puritanism at best and slavery at worst.

Interesting debate this one - particularly because it's a reductio ad absurdum. Don't know whether we'd want this kind of debate going on all the time though, because it could get quite dull after a while, particularly as it's based on assertion rather than argument.

Still, I am reading a stunning book on orality and literacy by Walter J Ong at the moment that should present a couple of interesting insights into this debate. I shall now quote at length... (this might be a useful subject for a separate Head Shop topic at some point - obviously if approached a little more seriosuly)...

On writing Writing, Plato has Socrates say in the Phaedrus, is inhuman, pretending to establish outside the mind what in reality can only be in the mind. It is a thing, a manufactured product. Secondly, Plato's Socrates urges, writing destroys memory. Those who use writing will become forgetful, relying on an external resource for what they lack in internal resources. Writing weakens the mind. Thirdly a written text is basically unresponsive. If you ask a person to explain his or her statement, you get an explanation; if you ask a text, you get back nothing but the same, often stupid, words which called for your question in the first place. Fourthly, in keeping with the agonistic mentatlity of oral cultures, Plato's Socrates also holds it against writing that the written word cannot defend itself as the natural spoken world can: real speech and thought always exist essentially in a context of give-and-take between real persons. Writing is passive, out of it, in an unreal, unnatural world

On print Hieronimo Squarciafico, who in fact promoted the printing of the Latin classics, also argued in 1477 that already 'abundance of books makes men less studious': it destroys memory and enfeebles the mind by relieving it of too much work, downgrading the wise man and wise woman in favor of the pocket compendium.

But interestingly in response One weakness in Plato's position was that, to make his objections effective, he put them into writing. Writing and print and the computer are all ways of technologising the word. One the word is technologised, there is no effective way to criticise what technology has done with it without the aid of the highest technology available. Moreover, the new technology is not merely used to convey the critique: in fact, it brought the critique into existence. Plato's philosophically analytic thought, including his critique of writing, was possible only because of the effects that writing was beginning to have on mental processes. In fact, as Havelock has beautifully shown (1993) Plato's entire epistemology was unwittingly a programmed rejection of the old oral, mobile, warm, personally interactive lifeblood of oral culture (represented by the poets, whom he would not allow in his Republic).

There's something for everyone to chew on...
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
13:43 / 30.08.02
Tom: is that Orality and Literacy by Ong? That's the only theorybitch book to have stuck in my head since university... I may be forced to go dig it out...
 
 
Tom Coates
14:42 / 30.08.02
Yup - that's the one. Stunning book. Thoroughly enjoying it. Whole vistas of 'ooooh!', and 'i seeeee'!
 
 
Justin Brief
15:58 / 30.08.02
I take it no-ones interested in discussing my telemorphic field concept, then?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
08:14 / 01.09.02
Does this 'books are bad' impulse also cover magazines, CD inserts, theses, newspapers, roadsigns, web pages, maps, billboards, comics, scripts or journals?
 
 
aus
14:34 / 01.09.02
No, I'd consider them on a case-by-case basis.

Newspapers and journals are better in principle because they express a far more recent past and are therefore more contemporary. Discussion with colleagues is better again, because their experiences and learning is current. People tend to report what happened yesterday or last week. Journals report what happened last month or last year. Books report what happened last century. Facts and social circumstances change but a book does not.

Books are comparatively expensive to produce and physically last longer, but the information in them is usually no more resilient than the information in other mediums. If books were created more cheaply - in a similar format to a newspaper, for example - perhaps books would be worthwhile. You could pay a dollar or fifty cents for a book completed yesterday or last week, scan through it or use the index to find the information you want, and share the interesting or useful bits with friends or colleagues. When the book became outdated, it could be recycled rather than collecting dust on a shelf for several decades.

Libraries could afford many more books in this format. They would require no more space because they would get worn out over time and recycled, thus reducing accumulation.

Do you think they'd still be called "books"? Would the word "book" adhere to the physical format or the length of the literary composition?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:44 / 03.09.02
auszilla for dummies Newspapers and journals are better in principle because they express a far more recent past and are therefore more contemporary.

So what, you're up for burning them after a week? A month? And what about the broadsheets, the Grauniads and the Thunderers that often have articles that may not necessarily be current, especially in their Sunday editions?

Discussion with colleagues is better again, because their experiences and learning is current.

What is this fascination with currency? Any scientific theory that is current wouldn't be considered valid or useful until it has been peer approved, which takes time. 'Nature' may publish new research, but every article has been peer reviewed for accuracy (normally) which would make it old.

People tend to report what happened yesterday or last week. Journals report what happened last month or last year. Books report what happened last century.

When (and why) is your cut-off point? When do old-facts become bad-facts? And by your criteria all work about and around Newton's theory of gravity should be chucked because that's simply ancient. And what about film and archive material from the 1920s? That's older than a lot of books. How come that gets to stay and something published in 1995 goes in the bin?

Books are comparatively expensive to produce and physically last longer, but the information in them is usually no more resilient than the information in other mediums.

I think the Muslim population of the word would want a word with you.

If books were created more cheaply - in a similar format to a newspaper, for example

So, you want a book that looks like a newspaper? What would we call it? I know, a newspaper! And we could give it a glossy cover and call that a magazine! A whole range of opportunities are opening up to me...

- perhaps books would be worthwhile. You could pay a dollar or fifty cents for a book completed yesterday or last week, scan through it or use the index to find the information you want, and share the interesting or useful bits with friends or colleagues.

Again, you've just reinvented newspapers et al. Second, what need does fiction have to be current? Third, do you have any idea how long it takes to come up with something? If I were to write even an article about the lives of Prostitutes in Argentina, for starters I need to organise a plane ticket, make some enquiries to see if there are any English speaking agencies over there that could help out, travel there, fit into other people's schedules for when they could see me, do the interviews, get them translated, come home, organise them, possibly contact the organisation if I have supplementary questions, collate it together, then write it. How much time do you figure that's going to take?
Fourthly, if you bitch about how much you'd have to pay for a book then I couldn't write a book about prostitutes in Argentina because no publishers will take on anything but the cheapest crap they can find, like Mills and Boon. Books aren't expensive just because publishers are evil multinational profit-driven scum.

When the book became outdated, it could be recycled rather than collecting dust on a shelf for several decades. And of course if I were more together I could come up with a book that is several decades old but hardly outdated.

Libraries could afford many more books in this format. They would require no more space because they would get worn out over time and recycled, thus reducing accumulation. You would be amazed how many requests we get, from all ages, for stuff you are dismissing as 'old'. Someone wanted the full transcripts of the Nuremberg Trials. Not on the internet to the best of my knowledge and even if it were he doesn't have a computer.

Do you think they'd still be called "books"? Would the word "book" adhere to the physical format or the length of the literary composition? Well, traditionally it's been used to refer to the physical format on the grounds that non-fiction is also published in book form and some books contain more or less than one story.
 
 
deja_vroom
17:59 / 03.09.02
I've been here for a year or so, and this is the stupidest thread I've seen on the board. More stupid than the "My ear is burning" thread. More stupid than the "I'll make a video of people dying to the sound of macarena" thread. I'm truly amazed.
 
 
aus
18:15 / 03.09.02
You ask questions and make comments on fragments of my post, but some of them have already been answered in other parts of my post. For example, I wrote:
Facts and social circumstances change but a book does not,
which at least begins to answer some of your criticisms of my ideas.

Your comment, I think the Muslim population of the word would want a word with you, completely fails to address my point. In fact, it highlights one of the issues I have with books - the idea that somehow just because something is published in book form it is valid or useful, particularly if it is old, regardless of it's validity, usefulness or truth from a broader perspective.

Our society seems to have a value hierarchy of communication media with spoken conversations at the bottom (somewhere near TV sitcoms) and old, old books at the top. I don't agree with this hierarchy. I think books are an inefficient method of sharing information and ideas.

If I were to write even an article about the lives of Prostitutes in Argentina, for starters I need to organise a plane ticket, make some enquiries to see if there are any English speaking agencies over there that could help out, travel there, fit into other people's schedules for when they could see me, do the interviews, get them translated, come home, organise them, possibly contact the organisation if I have supplementary questions, collate it together, then write it. How much time do you figure that's going to take?

And what patronizing nonsense it could be, despite the enormously wasteful cost and effort. The best person to write about the lives of prostitutes in Argentina would be a prostitute working in Argentina, not someone who doesn't even speak Spanish well enough to do without "English speaking agencies"! Thank you for again illustrating my point on the inefficiencies of book writing and publication.
 
 
aus
18:30 / 03.09.02
Jade, sorry we cross-posted.

Could you provide links to the "My ear is burning" and "I'll make a video of people dying to the sound of macarena" threads? I did a search for "My ear is burning" and couldn't find it. I'm curious.

What do you mean by "stupid" and how does something being "stupid" or "the stupidest" amaze you? Perhaps you could start a new thread on this, as it seems off-topic here.
 
 
deja_vroom
19:25 / 03.09.02
The "my ear is burning" thread was started by Pin, ages ago, I think. and it was funny, at least.
The other one is here

And by "stupid", well, I mean you.
 
 
aus
19:38 / 03.09.02
So your post was merely a thinly-veiled personal attack.
 
 
deja_vroom
19:38 / 03.09.02
Define "thinly".
 
 
aus
21:08 / 03.09.02
Considering you are a moderator, I can only say that I'm surprised at this. You haven't made a single comment of substance here. All you've done is managed to use the word "stupid" three times in three lines. I'm guessing you disagree with me on this subject, although you haven't made this clear. Chances are we agree on many other subjects, yet you have decided that I am "stupid" on the basis of this single disagreement.

Although I suspect you express yourself more capably and sociably in other circumstances, I will be ignoring you for at least a few days.
 
 
the Fool
22:32 / 03.09.02
Our society seems to have a value hierarchy of communication media with spoken conversations at the bottom (somewhere near TV sitcoms) and old, old books at the top. I don't agree with this hierarchy. I think books are an inefficient method of sharing information and ideas.

Is writing inefficient in communicating ideas? Why are you trying to communicate via writing then? What is inefficient about writing?

Is it just the word 'book' that troubles you?

At what point does collected writing become a 'book'? Over 22 pages? Does that make collected comics a book? If I put a couple of newspapers together do they become a book? If I put together a really short book (3 pages say)is it not a book,

If a book is a spoken word CD is that less inefficient? There is no reading involved, but its still a book?

If I put lots of pretty pictures of buildings together is that a book? I don't have to read anything, the pictures do the communicating.

If I write down a story that someone told me that I thought was funny so I could remember it, am I destroying the story?

If a TV show is based on a book, will you watch it?
 
 
aus
02:28 / 04.09.02
I think I've asked much the same sort of question, perhaps answered it in part. Read back a few posts. I find it ironic that the thread is only on its third page and already people are consistently asking questions that have already been addressed. Perhaps this is an illustration of one of the issues with books (here writing of "books" broadly defined as a literary work of some length - generally greater than the length of this thread). Many people cannot adequately absorb information at length. Information and ideas are more readily absorbed in smaller doses.

You might find something that you define as a book that is an exception to the issues I raise, but here are some other general negative aspects of books:

1. Cost and the use of resources - could some books be considered a wasteful luxury of the world's wealthier inhabitants? One person spends a fortune on a personal library while thousands remain illiterate and hungry.

2. Inefficiency, the use of materials and time - for example, often a small amount of information is required, not the entire book, and it can be very time-consuming to find that information in the book format. Indexing is of mixed quality, some books don't even contain indexes. My view is that on balance our time is better spent in other ways, and information better shared by more personal and social means.

3. False value and related educational isssues - many people and institutions value information from books much more highly than information from various other sources. Merely putting information in bound form with a cardboard (or even leather) cover does not make that information any more true or valid. I think this false value is behind the unreasonable reactions of some people on this web site. It can be almost as if the concept of Book is a god. Attached to this is the issue that while book-reading is difficult or of limited value to many people for a whole range of reasons, yet the god-like status of the Book means that many people are forced to use this medium even when it is inappropriate for them and other media would suit them better.

4. Social issues - I have observed people becoming unsociable and even anti-social through their infatuation with books. Often, book-reading is a solitary activity during which interaction with others is avoided. While this can also occur with other activities, that does not make it any less true in regard to the role of book reading. This overlaps with the false value issue where information obtained from books is valued above experience of social interaction and other aspects of the world around us. Humans are social animals, book-reading does not fit with this basic characteristic of our species, and this has consequences.

5. Socio-political issues - as a matter of principle (for me), the very fact that very few people dare to question the concept of books is a sure sign that the concept is due for re-examination.
 
 
the Fool
04:04 / 04.09.02
here writing of "books" broadly defined as a literary work of some length

That's a pretty narrow idea of what constitutes a 'book' don't you think? Most of what I read falls outside this definition.

I'd like to know what informational container you would prefer? If I want to find out about Japanese Origami where should I turn to???
 
 
deja_vroom
10:58 / 04.09.02
(sigh)
Ganesh: You can't be serious.

Auszilla: Re: Ignoring me: Please do.
 
 
aus
12:31 / 04.09.02
That's a pretty narrow idea of what constitutes a 'book' don't you think? Most of what I read falls outside this definition.

That's good. Does your reading material fall outside the issues that I raised in my previous post?

If I was looking for information about origami, I'd probably do a search on the Internet.
 
 
Bad Horse
13:11 / 04.09.02
This thread is not useless or stupid although I do disagree with the basis of Aus's argument. Just because most members of this board read books and many, myself included, love them does not mean we should never question their worth.

I find books are THE most convenient method of storing information on how to do things. They are small, use no power source more complicated than light and human interaction, they are robust, they do not take long to boot up, random access and are on the whole comparatively cheap and readily available.

As one of the few books I know you own Aus is a reference work do you continue to deny their usefulness in this field?
 
 
aus
15:33 / 04.09.02
Books use power sources aside from light - in production and distribution. They aren't as "clean" as they appear.

I have a dictionary. It is excellently well indexed in strict alphabetical order, unlike most books. I'm prepared to make exceptions! However, I'm more likely to use dictionary.com or the Macquarie Dictionary online.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:29 / 04.09.02
Well, it's a shame you couldn't find anything approaching the time I took to answer your post to do the same to mine. And the reason I made all those points and asked questions was because I didn't feel they'd already been covered.

auszilla for dummies You ask questions and make comments on fragments of my post, but some of them have already been answered in other parts of my post. For example, I wrote:
Facts and social circumstances change but a book does not,
which at least begins to answer some of your criticisms of my ideas.


Oh I see. That answers ALL the points I raised that you couldn't be bothered to answer? Urge to kill rising... Current facts and social circumstances change, historical facts and social circumstances don't. So what's wrong with books reflecting that?

Your comment, I think the Muslim population of the word would want a word with you, completely fails to address my point.

Now you know how it feels. It was also meant as a joke, note the smiley.

In fact, it highlights one of the issues I have with books - the idea that somehow just because something is published in book form it is valid or useful, particularly if it is old, regardless of it's validity, usefulness or truth from a broader perspective.

I'd agree with you that just being old is hardly a valid reason for treating something as more important than any of that new fangled learnin'. But, and this is definitely something you have not addressed, your posts in this thread give the impression that you think some groups of things are always old and other groups are always new.

Our society seems to have a value hierarchy of communication media with spoken conversations at the bottom (somewhere near TV sitcoms) and old, old books at the top. I don't agree with this hierarchy. I think books are an inefficient method of sharing information and ideas.


I would challenge you to find a better way to communicate the complete works of Philip Larkin, £14.99, Faber and Faber.

If I were to write even an article about the lives of Prostitutes in Argentina, for starters I need to organise a plane ticket, make some enquiries to see if there are any English speaking agencies over there that could help out, travel there, fit into other people's schedules for when they could see me, do the interviews, get them translated, come home, organise them, possibly contact the organisation if I have supplementary questions, collate it together, then write it. How much time do you figure that's going to take?

And what patronizing nonsense it could be, despite the enormously wasteful cost and effort. The best person to write about the lives of prostitutes in Argentina would be a prostitute working in Argentina, not someone who doesn't even speak Spanish well enough to do without "English speaking agencies"! Thank you for again illustrating my point on the inefficiencies of book writing and publication.


Is that really the best you can do? Ignore everything I say about time and effort and criticising the fact I can't speak the language? Alright. I live in London. I want to write a complete history of the London Underground system, including the semi-secret information about it's use during the Second World War. I also want to include photo's of stations including the now disused ones. Now, will you answer the original question?
 
 
DaveBCooper
12:53 / 06.09.02
Apparently not.

In much the same way as the comments made by myself and Undocumented Feature about books being one of the most efficient ways of conveying information about a wide variety of subjects have been ignored in favour of ... well, tangential stuff ('books consume power').

For some reason, I'm reminded of Mark Steel's comment : "If you only read one book this year... keep your mouth shut".

DBC
 
 
Ganesh
13:13 / 06.09.02
Aus: do you consider 'factual' books (reference, etc.) less pernicious than 'fictional' ones?
 
 
Bad Horse
13:26 / 06.09.02
To clarify my point on power sources (though I am sure you understood) when you have no power source but there is some source of light (the sun?) you can still read your book. This is extremely helpful if the book contains instructions on how to repair your power source.

Yes computers are useful for reference and I do not own a dictionary (obvious from my spelling perhaps) they continue to be inconvenient and expensive in respect of portability, intrinsic safety, product manuals (how more convenient to find the manual for the photocopier inside the photocopier than look it up on the web), bus books (every one at my office has to sign a policy forbbiding the use of the firm's portable computing equipment in public places and I am not about to get my Palm out on a bus to Salford), beach/pub reading and you guessed it power.

Why read at all (some respondents here think you don't, not even replies in your thread)? Reading is a way of exchanging ideas, even fiction contains useful information. It gives you something to talk about other than the sporting event you nearly participated in at the weekend. It stops you staring intently at the breasts of the large woman opposite you on the bus. It stops me having to do some work when I have nothing left to say here.

I still have no doubt there is a good case for abolishing books as we know them but I don't really think you are making it.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
13:52 / 06.09.02
Is this thread still going?

I have no shame in claiming the 100 post of this thread, that's for sure. I claim it for book reading perverts everywhere.
 
 
deja_vroom
14:21 / 06.09.02
Ganesh: Of course you know it's humanely impossible to be corteous *all the time* to *everybody*. I'm sure you have your own pressure points, too. You, telling me to "give [courtesy] a try sometime", is perhaps an example of unnecessary abrasiveness, of over-reacted response (and I'm not complaining, by the way. Confrontation can be good, as long as both parts have a steady supply of grown-up juice to sip from once in a while).
 
 
Sax
14:28 / 06.09.02
Can I suggest the arguments about courtesy and stupidness are clogging up this thread, which I'm sure many people are finding very interesting. If anyone wants their comments deleting to clean up the thread, please click on the moderation button and I'll be happy to do it.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:58 / 06.09.02
I second that motion. Come to think of it, this thread doesn't really have a point that anyone actually believes in (including the author), so it's merely an argument exercise. Which is perfectly fine, if you guys feel you want to work out the ol' debatin' muscle. I'd join you, but...

...But if you're going to do this exercise, get rid of the smartass remarks and retorts. Stop trying to be clever. All these witticisms and attempts at cleverness are repugnant. They have no use in an exercise, and if they did, they should be required to be a lot more clever than any I've seen in this thread. Except the "define thinly" remark, which was gold.

And until you all manage to start talking about the same thing all at once, maybe it would help to reduce this argument to it's most basic form and treat it as a "if p then q" kind of equation. Just to seperate the people who know what they're talking about from the people hiding their ignorance behind snappy phrases that really aren't all that funny.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:58 / 06.09.02
Sorry, I'm in a real pissy mood.
 
 
aus
00:10 / 07.09.02
Sorry, I have had other things to do in the last few days that I prioritize above this discussion. I don't believe anyone's likely to stop reading books entirely on account of my argument. Also, I'm not suggesting books be "abolished" - that would be ridiculous. Who's going to abolish them?

I also don't think "define 'thinly'" was a clever response. It was not enlightening and neither did it further the progress of the discussion.

I honestly believe that the written word is overvalued by many people in our culture, and that value is sometimes ascribed almost completely on the basis of length. I remember realizing in my last year of high school how little teachers valued my spoken contribution shared in class with the other students, by comparison with my written contributions that were less accessible and certainly less vital. I also realized that quality counted for surprisingly little - that 3000 words of padding will impress most people more than a concise, well-constructed 1500 word essay.

Furthermore, I've glanced through a top-selling, highly-acclaimed, recent novel and found it full of mundane descriptions of everyday activity, such as the step-by-step process of making a cup of tea right down to opening such-and-such a kitchen drawer to fetch a particular spoon. I don't see this type of writing particularly entertaining, compelling or informative, but critics go "ooh ah" and the book is given plenty of shelf space so that it sells.

I'll come back to this later and answer some specific questions. Right now I have projects with tighter deadlines. Perhaps in the meantime someone can try to directly address some of the points I have made throughout this thread. I think that could be interesting.
 
  

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