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No books matter

 
  

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the Fool
00:52 / 29.08.02
Earmuffs Auszilla, earmuffs!!! And blindfolds!!! In the world of value and purpose everyone and everything will have new and improved comodity ratings. Things such as fun and entertainment will be banished in favour or banal argumentation and denouncements. Public executions will be reinstated due to their high comodity ratings. People will have off switches installed to reduce waste and possible intrusion of entertainment thus increasing their comodity ratings!!!

Boredom will be reduced by increasing levels of spite and irratibilty. Thus also increasing banal argumentation's comodity rating!!!
 
 
Spatula Clarke
00:57 / 29.08.02
But then, no other animal uses earmuffs or blindfolds. It's a doozy of a conundrum and no mistake.
 
 
aus
01:00 / 29.08.02
It's easy for the privileged and wealthy people on our planet to consider their own pleasure over the health and lives of others.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
01:05 / 29.08.02
Isn't it just. Tell you what, why don't you get rid of your Internet connection and send the money that you spend on it to charity instead?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:57 / 29.08.02
You know I've been reading your sweet one liners for two weeks now Auszilla and I think I'm madly in love with you. Is it your beautiful speech, your rampant intelligence or your Wildesque wit, I couldn't say. Possibly it's your troll like demeanour or maybe the incoherent and positively inane posts you send out. I bet IRL you ride a motorbike and wear a leather jacket and spend your time creating radical debate with terribly intellectual people. Could I be the Harriet Vane to your Lord Peter Wimsey? The Maree to your Rupert? The Joey to your Jack or the Mikage to your Yuichi? Oh. Wait. You've never read a book, you don't know who any of them are.
 
 
—| x |—
03:22 / 29.08.02
"Modzilla, as you wish to contend against the reality of book reading...

Only in so far as it is likely that people read books, but not that they really read them. I mean, they appear to read books, and I seem to be reading books now and then, but I don't know if there is a real reality to book reading, or if it is mere appearance. So, while it might be true that there isn't a reality of book reading, I will say that I can't be absolutely certain that people who appear to be reading books are actually reading them in reality.
 
 
YNH
06:07 / 29.08.02
I'm ashamed. I have more books than friends.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
06:27 / 29.08.02
You and me both, YNH.

'nesh- "Knodwin's Law", perhaps?

I love books. But then I'm just a weak-willed literature junky.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
07:44 / 29.08.02
auszilla for dummies Personal attacks do not help your argument, My Misheard Lada of the Flowers, if that is your real name.
I hate my parents sometimes. At school all the other girls would beat me with hockey sticks while screaming "what kind of middle name is 'Misheard Lada of the' anyway?"

I tried arguing with you. Still haven't seen any response to my points. So far you've only replied to one person's point. You failed to provide much by way of proof for your thesis other than 'go look at people reading and see what happens'.
 
 
DaveBCooper
08:40 / 29.08.02
Coming in late :

What the jiggins is all this about, then ?
Try sitting near someone who’s doing ANYTHING and openly watching them, and they’ll look embarrassed, or uncomfortable in some way.
There may indeed be preferable ways to experience things, but for most people they aren’t possible; Hawking can’t go into space (despite the Specsavers ad), I’m unlikely to ever meet Richard Feynmann, but science books are a cheap and easily accessible way of accessing information about this subject.
It’s a question of effectiveness, surely; books are one of the most efficient ways of conveying information about a wide variety of subjects, and their form is a result of trial and error. The form may delight some, but at heart it should be a case of being interested in the content.

Don’t really know what you’re driving at here, Auszilla. You could probably argue just as well/poorly that any medium of communication is unnatural, but surely it’s through communication that we develop ideas, and through ideas, as a species ?

And I don’t know if not having read a book (or maybe having read one) necessarily grants a degree of objectivity. Sometimes being external to something can manifest in a degree of hostility to it, and there are suggestions of that in your comments, to be honest. And I don't think that constitutes objectivity.
Example : I’ve never been fishing. Can’t see the point. I need convincing it’s a worthwhile way to spend time. And that position is not an objective one.

DBC
 
 
w1rebaby
10:54 / 29.08.02
How can you have more books than friends? Books are friends. Except Dean R Koontz.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:56 / 29.08.02
Dean R. Koontz. What a Henry Kelly.
 
 
Justin Brief
11:43 / 29.08.02
Anyway. Someone, somewhere way up there mentioned learning words through genetic memory. May I humbly suggest that this is the only interesting thing to have happened thus far?

Animals learn many of their societal functions through genetic memory, and simple observance of their parents. Biologists, as far as I'm aware, deny that there is any possibility that humans experience 'genetic memory'.

Now, I was thunkin'... them thar people that see ghosts (images of people dressed ye olde style, for example), and claim to have memories of past lives (more often than not as Cleopatra).

What if these phenomenon could be explained by genetic memories, passed via those little gene fellas?

Any thoughts?

Oh, and books suck, yeah, yeah, they're for squares and swots. Yeah.
 
 
I, Libertine
12:13 / 29.08.02
Thoughts:

I'm thinking of "genetic memory" as a sort of afterimage projected onto humans at a molecular level by their passage through time. As such images accumulate human beings and our cultures grow ever more "complex" and "advanced." We also begin to go mad, in the socio-cultural sense, due to the accumulation of too many memories. Inevitably, some kind of apocalypse happens and the valence is reset to accept more data, "genetic memory" or whatever you want to call it--it's a cosmic Estate Tax for the inheritance of our genes and there's no way around it.

Proof: the Gobi desert.

Obligatory thread comments: Books are the only medium yet devised that transmits information directly to the brain by way of the ocular nerve. The only energies required are reflected light and human caloric output, and the received information manifests in the imagination. A supremely subjective medium. A portable solipsism (not perjorative). The mind is enriched by books because it works to create them. Fuck what matters.
 
 
Justin Brief
14:29 / 29.08.02
Hmmmm. Interesting, not quite what I was thinking, but...

Do you believe in some kind of Jungian group mind, which telepathically transmits these memories backward and forward in time?
 
 
Justin Brief
14:30 / 29.08.02
A 'telemorphic' field, to coin a phrase?
 
 
Panda.
14:33 / 29.08.02
I 100% agree. The sooner we stop dreaming and start doing the better.
 
 
Justin Brief
14:39 / 29.08.02
Start doing what, oh black-eyed non-real bear? You've lost me.
 
 
I, Libertine
15:08 / 29.08.02
Justin: Do you believe in some kind of Jungian group mind, which telepathically transmits these memories backward and forward in time?

Mmm...not sure I'd say I believe in the collective unconscious mind, but I think there's quite a bit of evidence out there that hasn't yet been explained in any better way. It's a handy framework. And I'm open to the idea that time is best described as a quaquaversal field rather than an unidirectional anything.

Plus, given a choice between Freud (everything mental begins with sex) and Jung (everything mental begins with dreams), I'll take Jung!

Panda: The sooner we stop dreaming and start doing the better.

Can one exist without the other?
 
 
Justin Brief
15:25 / 29.08.02
Hey! Look! I'm over here.

What do you mean by quaquaversal?

I'm entirely open to the idea that we experience space-time in an illusory and arbritary forward direction, merely so that our puny mortal minds can make better sense of it. I've recently experienced a series of dreams which could be described as precognitive; nothing major, no plane crashes or impending armageddons, just teensy little things that could be coincidences if I'm wearing a rational hat. For example (this is an odd one) dreaming about going to see a gig by Jonathan Richman and the Modern Lovers (a band for which I have no love or particular interest), waking up puzzling as to why I would have such a dream about a band for which I have no love or particular interest, and then later that day, finding a Jonathan Richman and the Modern Lovers CD in a charity shop. Just silly little things like that. Anyone else?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
16:27 / 29.08.02
No. Books matter.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
17:39 / 29.08.02
Nothing matters except that we make it so. People attach value to ideas and books - in fact, they are often repositories of notions of value. Therefore they matter - often they define the notion of mattering.

This is a silly thread. But it is not silly enough to be true.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
19:06 / 29.08.02
And Panda/Auszilla/Justin, please stop agreeing with yourself. Speaking with three voices doesn't mean you win the argument.
 
 
Ganesh
19:28 / 29.08.02
A little less of the multi-suit accusations, please...
 
 
Mourne Kransky
20:05 / 29.08.02
Some books matter. Some books just don't. The thing is, you have to read the fuckers to work out which is which.

auszilla, the Memoirs, Volume II, is a work of breathtaking brilliance, btw. Particularly the photographs of him in Aussie football shorts.
 
 
aus
20:21 / 29.08.02
I am not Panda or Justin. I have no other suits. I don't even have a spare pair of pants. I think Tom now has the technology to confirm this and to discover multiple suits.

I ran out of posts yesterday, so I will now address questions and comments one by one.

Tell you what, why don't you get rid of your Internet connection and send the money that you spend on it to charity instead?

Because I don't pay for my Internet connection and I don't have a choice in the matter. I do, however, live simply - though not as simply as the average Londoner, from what I've read.

You know I've been reading your sweet one liners for two weeks... Is it your beautiful speech, your rampant intelligence or your Wildesque wit, I couldn't say...

You're the only person who could answer this question.

I bet IRL you ride a motorbike and wear a leather jacket and spend your time creating radical debate with terribly intellectual people.

I wish. However, I couldn't justify to myself the cost of a motorbike. How could I argue against the solitary and costly nature of book-reading if I had a motorbike? Randy could really get me for that one!

Could I be the [whoever to your whoever]? Oh. Wait. You've never read a book, you don't know who any of them are.

Correct. I have no idea who you are talking about. However, you could tell me about them and that way I wouldn't need to read a book. Don't you think that would be a much more enchanting experience?

Modzilla, you seem to have missed the point.

[Your Name Here], that's exactly the sort of issue I was driving at, the loss of social experience, the breakdown of social values through isolationist individualism and so on. I also have a problem with the social consequences of personal motorized transport, like cars. People don't seem to be people anymore to a person who is behind the wheel of a car. Most cars only contain one person, so they are socially isolated and feel insulated from peer influence or observation. Have you ever noticed how selfish and bad-mannered some people are when they are driving, though when met face to face they might be remarkably considerate and well-mannered?

Flowers, I'm not arguing with you because I didn't come here to argue or become involved in the flinging of personal insults. This is another example of the regrettable results of social isolation. You probably would be much more pleasant in person.

Some books matter. Some books just don't. The thing is, you have to read the fuckers to work out which is which.

An excellent point. It's an irony, a Catch-22. Perhaps there are a few books that are worth my time and attention, but finding them through all the pulp, crap and nonsense that is published eliminates the value in books for me.

My view is that on balance our time is better spent in other ways, and information better shared by more personal and social means. The vast majority of books have been mass-produced. They're not designed for you personally, for your own particular personality and circumstance. I believe there are means of deseminating information in more personally and circumstantially appropriate ways. These means don't have the pitfalls of putting a human being more intimately in contact with an inanimate object that they are with any other human - the "nose in a book", as you have probably heard said.
 
 
w1rebaby
20:30 / 29.08.02
So, letters would be acceptable reading?

Except that, y'know, even though it's addressed to you, a letter is not really to you. It's to the version of you that the writer has in their mind, which is hardly the same at all, and it's gone through the brutal filter of language and social codes. In fact, the same is true even when they're talking to you face to face. Their behaviour is modified by the surroundings, what they think you might tell others, what they want out of you...

I feel so alone, now. At least Morrissey understands the real me.
 
 
aus
21:08 / 29.08.02
That's all part of social interaction, Fridge. Personal letters and conversations are far more dynamic and adaptable than books. Also, there is that person-to-person social discourse. You can write a response to a letter and the person is likely to read it, perhaps even reply or modify some of the thoughts they expressed in the letter.

The other issue is finding the most helpful use of time. Books are often very long in comparison to most letters, and they can be very inefficient in providing the specific information that will be helpful to an individual. Think about the last book that influenced you. How many pages would it take you to express the ideas or information that actually made a difference to your life? I expect you are capable of expressing that same information in a few pages, and I'd much rather read your two or three page summary than the entire book!

What we need is more precis. I'd like authors to serve humanity a little by sharing their information without expecting us non-book-readers to slog through 250,000 words. Let us spend our time in society rather than isolated from each other, producing what we choose to produce rather than bowing to their product.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
21:12 / 29.08.02
Many books are about conveying a character, an experience or even an ethos. Such things are, in life, constructed over many years. You can know someone for an extremely long time and get only the vaguest sense of who they are, even given the vast quantity of data you might amass over that period. What is amazing about good writing is that it can convey that mood, that person, in such a stunningly condensced form that it requires only 250,000 words - a smallish computer file.
 
 
aus
21:37 / 29.08.02
Maybe, but the computer files to which you refer are not intended to be read. Personally, I'd rather get to know a real person who is present with me than some fictional character. If it is a description of a real person, what makes you think authors are any less likely to know someone for an extremely long time and get only the vaguest sense of who they are?
 
 
w1rebaby
21:39 / 29.08.02
Think about the last book that influenced you. How many pages would it take you to express the ideas or information that actually made a difference to your life?

Actually, the last book that influenced me (My War Gone By, I Miss It So) was pretty condensed and I'd be surprised if it could be condensed much further.

Reading, being influenced by reading and acting in society is as much interaction as any "direct" contact - just it takes longer, though in the end it influences more people. It may take years to influence a million people but I wouldn't be able to do that face to face. So, really, books are more efficient forms of communication. Particularly since they can keep on working once the author is dead.
 
 
—| x |—
22:13 / 29.08.02
"Modzilla, you seem to have missed the point."

No, no auszilla--I think you've missed my point.
 
 
Ganesh
22:18 / 29.08.02
(Oooh! Clash of the Zillas!)
 
 
Seth
22:51 / 29.08.02
This is a dumb thread, which I initially just thought was a joke until it went on for just that bit too long. That and the fact that no-one laughed.

The problem with "just doing" stuff before you've read anything? You don't have access to the mistakes that good people have made before you, you don't have a facility for wiser people than you to tell you what works and what doesn't, because you're limited by the experience of the people within your immediate social circle. You're ill-informed, underequipped and you'd have to be a fool to deny yourself available resources rather than use the shit out of them to accomplish what you need to. Let's face it, no-one in their right mind would say you can't take an active role in the culture you're a part of and read at the same time.

As far as music goes, I use it to enter trance states in order to heal myself and those around me. I use it to help myself and others blow off tension, have fun, dance and to feel a fleeting sense of wonder. It's a vital factor in the social circles I engage in. It's celebratory, communal and spiritual. It doens't seem related to what you think it is at all.

As I said, dumb thread. I'm only responding because I've just spent an evening having fun and meeting people in a pub while listening to my friend's band play, and I'm still a little tipsy.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:54 / 29.08.02
(Oooh! Clash of the Zillas!)

So, I guess the big question is, will you be seeing each other again? No? Awww, that's such a shame, you're both lovely people. Well, I wish the both of you the best of luck. Come on - give them a big hand. That's our auszilla and our Modzilla.

Next up, we'll find out which suit gets to choose from these three lovely lasses.
 
  

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