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New X-Men #130

 
  

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The Natural Way
08:29 / 17.08.02
I don't really think either Jean or Charles believe Mutants are superior to humans. They can read minds - they know how fucked up we ALL are, including the "pretty things"..... And, as for stuff like Charles' comment about "monkey politics", well, in that instance I'm pretty sure he's bemoaning the persistance of the primitive, emotional-territorial mindset (see RAW), not human beings themselves. He could level that particular complaint at Magneto and it would ring just as true. In fact, I'm sure that was his main complaint re that pesky, Genoshan trouble maker. And that's why, as far as the X Mansion's concerned, Magneto's death heralded the beginning of a new way. A pro-active way, sure, but one that isn't defined by us/them. It's the ape-mind that perpetuates that whole, fucked up paradigm.

I think Grant, for all his chaos magic pretensions, is a bit of an old mystic at heart and really understands consciousness as existing on a vertical scale from terrestrial, ego driven (monkey) awareness, to, weeelll, a kind of heavenly mind that enjoys a more panoramic, extra-terrestrial view of earthly affairs. So...that might make him a "zen fascist (tm)", but it's an inclusive, loving kind of fascism, mainly manifesting as hardcore altruism.

"Make friends w/ them until they beg for mercy...."
 
 
Seth
11:00 / 17.08.02
Isn't that part of the problem, though? The removal of the problematic mutant element while the human lefties are non-existent. In fact, the humans only seem to be enlightened through direct contact with the X-Men, who now seem to be both spokepeople for all mutants and humans, who have no positive representation in the text (ie: individual characters prepared to enter serious debate with them). Don't get me wrong, the themes that Morrison has used for humanity have been nice and complex, with opposition, mutant fetishists, opportunists - a whole range of responses to mutants, but none of them represented by individuals who last longer than a couple of panels, with no characters with a tolerant stance to use as an ally. At present, humanity is the antagonist simply because GM doesn't show even just a few individuals in any kind of positive light - and he needs to, if this is about "making friends until they beg for mercy." Where are the friends? Are we to assume that there are no tolerant people until the X-Men can persuade them to be tolerant? I'd love to have seen a few of Xaviers press conferences and negotiations in more depth, for example, or to have human characters genuinely approach mutants for mutual understanding.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
13:16 / 17.08.02
I'd like to see Prof X recruit a human.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:24 / 17.08.02
Igor Kordey inks all of his art, and that's why his work looks so poor - if he slowed down, and had a better inker do his work, all of his errors would likely be smoothed out, especially the times when it seems like there is no depth of field to his backgrounds. You know that one panel when Fantomex is looking outside of EVA and it looks like there's a poster of the Paris skyline under his feet? A good inker could have fixed that. Still, the fact that Igor inks his own work is what makes him so incredibly fast, and that is the entire reason he got the NXM job. I remember someone like Cameron speculating that Igor was inking straight from very rough pencils - that's fucking insane. No wonder he's so hit-or-miss, and that every character has a different face from panel to panel and page to page.

About Xavier - I'm pretty sure that Xavier's growing intolerance/"Zen Fascism" is a subplot that's probably going to go somewhere that we all won't see coming. I'm not going to speculate, but I'm wondering how this will relate to Jean's Phoenix power and how it will play out in Frank's storyline later on.
 
 
CameronStewart
16:23 / 17.08.02
>>>Igor Kordey inks all of his art, and that's why his work looks so poor - if he slowed down, and had a better inker do his work, all of his errors would likely be smoothed out<<<

I have heard that Igor Kordey refuses to have an inker. They've asked him, but he won't have it.

>>>I remember someone like Cameron speculating that Igor was inking straight from very rough pencils - that's fucking insane.<<<

Wee-ee-ee-eell....yes and no. I ink myself on Catwoman, and I only draw very rough and loose pencils to work from. What's the sense in drawing everything out in its entirety in pencil, and then drawing it all AGAIN when inking it? The monthly schedule simply doesn't allow it - a penciller who has a seperate inker can afford to put in more detail because that's the only part of the job he's doing - and since it's being handed off to someone else to complete, more pencil detail means more influence over how the final artwork will appear.

But if I'm inking myself, I see no reason to pencil everything out perfectly and then merely trace over it in ink - I think that often kills the spontaneity and life to a drawing. I give myself just enough pencil lines to know where everything is supposed to go, then do the majority of the actual *drawing* with the brush, and the results tend to be far more vivacious. I love when "happy accidents" occur, some unexpected flourish of the brush that produces a line quite unlike anything I would have deliberately contrived to produce, and certainly would never have happened if I'd meticulously planned everything out. If I'm particularly paranoid about getting a certain facial expression correct or whatever, I'll do a tight pencil drawing, but otherwise it's rough pencils all the way. There's nothing insane about it...unless you can't draw.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:51 / 17.08.02
Obviously, yr right - I sort of meant that it was insane that Igor is doing it. He's just so sloppy and haphazard about it, I can't believe that he's getting away with this on a top selling title.
 
 
Seth
22:47 / 17.08.02
Originally posted by Yawn:
I'd like to see Prof X recruit a human.

That's such a great idea.
 
 
Trijhaos
23:06 / 17.08.02
Am I just seeing things or do Fantomex's bullets have faces?
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
06:44 / 18.08.02
Either they are extentions of himself like eva and an earlier character Random did... or he is using grant's Magic mirror as a weapon as people predicted in the bomb.
 
 
some guy
00:30 / 19.08.02
I'd like to see Prof X recruit a human.

Maddy Pryor was an active team member for a year or so. Storm was essentially human for a few years, and Doug Ramsey probably falls in that category. Lots of support staff has been human over the years in the Moira/Sharon/Tom/Stevie vein. It's sort of been done, but it's a good enough idea to revisit...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
04:07 / 19.08.02
Madelyne Pryor was never a member of the X-Men, she was just someone who ended up stuck with the X-Men due to poor circumstances and her failed marriage to Cyclops. Also, she wasn't really a human after all.

Doug Ramsey was a mutant, with the ability to understand any language or code intuitively - for some reason, this power which would be amazingly powerful and useful in the real world, was always considered some kind of non-power when compared to people who can blow things up and smash things. Silly comic books. But no, he was certainly a mutant even if he just seemed like a smart kid.

To be a stickler, Laurence, none of the characters you mention except for Storm (who was still genetically a mutant when she lost her powers to Forge) were X-Men, they were simply supporting cast members.

The only non-mutant X-Man to date has been Longshot, who was an alien.


Christ.


I am such a dork.


Anyway, I think adding one or two non-mutant, non-superheroic characters to the teaching staff would be a very logical choice. Surely they must be willing to hire human teachers who are full qualified, right? The main cast members of NXM seem to be a little too busy to be teacher all of those kids full time, you know?
 
 
fluid_state
05:45 / 19.08.02
Am I just seeing things or do Fantomex's bullets have faces?

I read them as (hastily-rendered) reflections of of their hapless victims. But the magic-mirror-bullet theory is So Much Better. It would explain why he's got so damnned many of them.

posted by Flux
The only non-mutant X-Man to date has been Longshot, who was an alien.

didn't they retcon that out? I only picked up a handful of X-Comix in the 90's, and it seemed every non-mutant had some sort of weak backstory add-on that made them mutants by proxy. "Oh, longshot's a mutant on his world. And Captain Britian was always a mutant, honest. Talking to Merlin? that was his psyche, agonizing over the pain of his mutation. No, really." I could be mistaken, though.

Originally posted by Yawn:
I'd like to see Prof X recruit a human.

Yeah. The Prof's right though: us humans do seem to play a lot of chimanzee politics. I expect to see Xavier realize that his methods, while further evolved, amount to Neandertal politics : further evolved, but still bound by the rules of the base primate.
 
 
The Natural Way
07:39 / 19.08.02
expressionless: YOU, good Sir, are on the money. Thoughts moved on from where they were previously: intelligent humans ARE sorely lacking and ARE necessary.

And Prof X should recruit a human. Nice one, yawn.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
11:30 / 19.08.02
woah - thanks for all the praise regarding the recruitment comment.

the reason I mentioned it is cos what with all these mutants popping up, it seems to give more focus to humans and the skills we have as a race or whatever - just as there are lots of different mutant powers, so there are different human powers/skills etc.

and as far as dissolving thresholds between oppostites etc - it just seems....

right.
 
 
some guy
11:44 / 19.08.02
Madelyne Pryor was never a member of the X-Men, she was just someone who ended up stuck with the X-Men due to poor circumstances and her failed marriage to Cyclops. Also, she wasn't really a human after all.

She lived with the X-Men, she fought with the X-Men. Unless there's some secret induction ceremony required for admission, she seems to count in my book. She also had no powers, making her effectively human - which is the same point with Doug and the de-powered Storm. That's three basically human members of the X-Men/New Mutants, unless we're going to wallow in pedantry.

Sharon, Tom, Moira and Stevie were support characters, yes, but what I gather Yawn was pressing for is human representation among the school's teachers rather than active combatants. My point was that it'd been done, more or less, by Claremont. Teachers will necessarily be support characters until the book massively changes focus away from action heroics. But it's a good idea that's well worth revisiting, and hopefully Morrison will head down that path before the X-Men fall even more vulnerable to accusations of elitism.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:56 / 19.08.02
I'm not sure Claremont and co. ever used a human to express the point we're discussing here, though.

But, otherwise, yeah - those guys were, as far as I'm concerned, part of the team.
 
 
sleazenation
12:15 / 19.08.02
heh - I thinka conversation about the previous use of human characters within the x-men has nowhere to go, but pedantry.

for example storm, cypher and maddy pryor were all mutants. Cypher's abilities were non-combative, storm lost her powers and maddy was a clone of jean grey who eventually became the superpowered goblin queen (!) - they all had the x gene.

Sharon and Tom were humans, but were dumped into native american bodies as soon as they were introduced, rendering them something more than human. Moira and stevie were both humans without additional powers, but i don't believe either were on the teaching staff of the school.

so yes, while there have ben some humans that like mutants and who have worked with, for the school in some capacity we have yet to have a human teacher who is there to teach.


In the background of newxmen there has been mention of 'mutant fashions' becoming popular. This is something i'd like to see developed - all the human kids trying to be mutant cool. Unfortunately - i'm not sure where it'd fit in a 32page book...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:25 / 19.08.02
This is something i'd like to see developed - all the human kids trying to be mutant cool. Unfortunately - i'm not sure where it'd fit in a 32page book...

This was one of the main points of Joe Casey's run, it came up in his first and last storylines. The second story involved a special street drug which somehow allowed humans to temporarily have mutant abilities.

I know it's stupid, but I really resent the notion that a guy who has a mutant gene that allows him to understand any language or code intuitively is not a mutant because his power isn't much good in a fight and he's not disfigured. Cypher/Doug Ramsey had probably one of the most amazing powers in all of the X-canon - if he and Forge (a man who can invent ANYTHING!) got together, they could change the world in drastic ways.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:29 / 19.08.02
Pranny's ideas for Cypher are brilliant. Esp the one where he gets so caught up in the language of the thing that he forgets it's a fight and he just stands there staring and smiling....
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
13:32 / 19.08.02
wait a minute

I don't give a fuck if the humans fight or teach!

just thought it'd be cool to have a human as part of the team.

Being human in the x-men world is increasingly looking like just another mutation.

in fact what'd be really cool would be if it became apparent that there was no such thing as a human - that we are all in fact mutants.

That the very defining aspect of being human

is one's mutation.

still awestruck by the end of the tv series of Martian Chronicles which i saw when I was 6 OR 7 years old.

the dad (famous actor) takes his human kids to see the martians and points at their reflections in a watery pool.

I like variations on this theme.

oui-R-u
 
 
some guy
18:30 / 19.08.02
Getting my geek on for a moment, Stevie was a teacher, in charge of both the New Mutants' and the X-Men's physical fitness. As she has her own studio, she presumably did this on a contract basis, although IIRC she is shown teaching at the school as well.

With respect to the pedantry of labels, I would suggest that the prime charactertistic of a mutant is not the X gene at all, but rather the exhibition of so-called 'super powers' for use primarily in combat situations. Thus Maddy, punk Storm, Doug and Forge are effectively human characters in the fabulous world of mutantdom (and Doug and Maddy were explicitly used in this manner as bridge characters for new readers). I'm not saying "Doug was not a mutant," I'm just saying that in essence he functions as a human character. With study, I could be Doug or the depowered Storm. I could never be Colossus.

Tom and Sharon have strange things happen to them, but they are nevertheless human characters with roles at the school.

I expect Grant's run will culminate with the opening of the school to humans in an integrationist move, and wouldn't be surprised if he adds a human to the team somewhere along the line. Through Maddy, the depowered Storm, arguably through Doug and the school's support staff, it's been done before. Do I think Grant could do it better? That's a difficult one, because it would be flashy and Making A Point, whereas in Claremont's day it was done without a second thought. I'm not sure which better represents 'progress.'

UXM 201 would no doubt be praised as a revolutionary masterpiece had Grant written it - for those who haven't read it, this is the issue in which an essentially human Storm (ie: no powers) defeats Cyclops in battle for control of the X-Men.

Adding a human raises some interesting points, though. What is the moral dimension in willingly placing a human in combat with some of the X-Men's more powerful foes? Would it be irresponsible to accept a human combatant?

I also wish Grant would focus more on the school (I'd love to shift the heroics to UXM and use NXM in the original New Mutants role, as the school-based book examining the students' lives). Who exactly teaches what? Few of the X-Men appear qualified to teach anything, and there are so many students now that the early Xavier/Magneto as headmaster/tutor paradigm can't possibly work.
 
 
at the scarwash
19:00 / 19.08.02
I liked Kordrey more on this issue than I usually do. There were even some panel layouts that really impressed me (Fantomex's mass murder of the hosts of XII), but does the man ink with a grease pencil? I thing his lumpiness could be kind of cool if the inks were sharper. (Although much higher class)Ted McKeever really makes weird bodies work, mostly because he does have such sharp, defined edges. And then there's that whole he-can-draw thing.

testpattern
 
 
at the scarwash
19:04 / 19.08.02
Doug Ramsy died, right? Whatever happened to Forge? His power could make for some interesting stories, even if he was such a ninny of a character.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:30 / 19.08.02
Yeah, Doug Ramsey died. He was shot while saving one of his teammates.

I just can't even begin to understand why Laurence is being so thick about this - Ramsey was a mutant, but not a real superhero. The X-Men is about a school for mutants, and Ramsey was a student there. He was just as much of a mutant as every other character in that school, but he was no good in a fight. It doesn't mean he was a human. Now, even before Grant Morrison wrote the X-Men, the premise was still about a school for mutants - the superhero thing was secondary. If Cypher was in the comic now, there's no way he'd be sent out in 'combat situations'. None of the students are. The point of the story in which he died was that those kids did not have any supervision or teachers at that point, and failed horribly because of that.

Still, it doesn't make that character any less of a mutant than Colossus or Professor Xavier or Wolverine. You could never get Doug Ramsey's power from lots of studying, because he could understand EVERYTHING. Without having to think about it. That's pretty amazing, really - a lot more amazing than turning into metal and smashing things.

The most interesting thing about characters like Forge and Cypher is that it suggested that being a virtuoso or a prodigy was a mutation in the X-Men sense of the word - and it's a mutation that makes a lot more sense than most of the super-powered characters. Havok might be able to blow things up with his hands, but a guy like Cypher could decode the human genome in three minutes. You tell me who's more powerful and useful, okay?

No one would have praised UXM 201 for anything, cos it's mediocre no matter which way you look at it. It's backwards too - the comic has long since ditched the notion of a 'team' leader. There isn't really even a 'team' to begin with. It's not football. If you want football with superheros, you read The Avengers, you know?
 
 
Seth
19:37 / 19.08.02
I think the present debate about humans connected with the X-Men is kinda missing the point. Regardless of the standing on whether or not they're human or mutant, they cannot be used as examples of intelligent human characters who just-so-happen to identify with the mutants' struggle, because they're intrinsically linked to the X-Men. I can only remember Madelyn Prior's introduction to the X-World, but I certainly remember her mildly freaking out at the strangeness of everything before adjusting. What we're talking about is the need for the X-Men to encounter sympathetic humans who already have a tolerant, progressive stance, rather than having gained it through contact with enlightened mutants.
 
 
some guy
21:02 / 19.08.02
I just can't even begin to understand why Laurence is being so thick about this

It's very simple. This is a comic book, with bright colors and shiny spandex and Zip! Bam! Pow! flashy super powers. In the larger context of this Doug is no different than you or I (and in fact a huge part of his characterisation hinged on this, that he was basically just a human, that he had no business engaging in conflicts, that he was an outsider who didn't identify with the X-Men or even mutants).

Now, even before Grant Morrison wrote the X-Men, the premise was still about a school for mutants - the superhero thing was secondary.

Now who's being thick? Even The New Mutants was about superhero action, no matter how hard Claremont tried to shoehorn it into being primarily about "a school for mutants." And let's not even discuss what happened to the two titles after Claremont left. What issues of UXM would you point to as evidence that a "school for mutants" was the core premise of the series, rather than superheroes or soap opera?

You could never get Doug Ramsey's power from lots of studying, because he could understand EVERYTHING. Without having to think about it.

Returning to geek mode, Doug did have to think about it, and sometimes he could only grasp pieces of meaning. It takes him a little while to be able to communicate with Warlock, for example. But again, we're discussing a 'power' that is not far removed from human ability (I'd put Forge in this camp as well). Let's not forget that Doug didn't even know he was a mutant for a while - he just thought he had an aptitude for language. To stress the mutant thing in his case - an obvious gateway character made as human as possible on purpose - seems to me as silly as claiming Maddy doesn't count as human pre-Inferno, or Storm is still a mutant between UXM 185 and 227. True, but Missing The Point thematically.

a guy like Cypher could decode the human genome in three minutes.

No, he couldn't.

No one would have praised UXM 201 for anything, cos it's mediocre no matter which way you look at it. It's backwards too - the comic has long since ditched the notion of a 'team' leader.

If it had Grant's name on it and was called NXM 131 we'd all be lauding it for its bold theme of human/mutant equity or some similar rubbish. And has the comic really ditched the leadership notion? It wouldn't appear so. When would you say this change occurred?

I think the present debate about humans connected with the X-Men is kinda missing the point. Regardless of the standing on whether or not they're human or mutant, they cannot be used as examples of intelligent human characters who just-so-happen to identify with the mutants' struggle, because they're intrinsically linked to the X-Men.

But often they are linked because they are precisely the "good" human characters you wish the books would depict. I'm thinking of people like Lee Forrester, Gaby Haller, Stevie again. The thing I found interesting about the first Claremont run wasn't just the relative rarity of mutants (now they're everywhere), but the fact that he took pains to show the good humans along with the bad. There's a great scene in UXM200 IIRC where Kitty bitches out some protesters, only to be told that they were pro-mutant demonstrators (she couldn't read their placards without glasses). You've got the full support staff at the mansion (ie: any other teacher role after Charles), you've got mutants made human, you've got human lovers for many characters, we run into people like the cop in UXM206 who's happy to give the X-Men a chance in San Francisco, the working class guys who stick up for mutants in the Nimrod storyline and UXM210, the crux of the X-Men/Alpha Flight mini. At some point that aspect of the books disappeared, as more mutants crept into the storylines and writers like Scott Lobdell chose the easy route of angst. So yeah, I can see why pro-mutant human characters independent of the X-Men would be a refreshing change these days, let alone a human team member.

But it's been done before. That's all I'm saying.

In some ways the level of anti-mutant feeling in the books nowadays just seems very out of place, as though a large backwards slide has occurred since the late UXM 270s. Even Claremont seems afraid of human characters, pointlessly revealing the latest X-Men in EXM to be mutants after all..
 
 
glassonion
21:05 / 19.08.02
the humans are all going to die soon! it's xavier's responsibility to help each one of them learn the necessary techniques to turn on their x-gene and make the leap into the next evolutionary playground.

and what's all this 'With study I could be...the depowered Storm'? your challenge is accepted. go study and come back when you're an african girl.
 
 
The Natural Way
07:21 / 20.08.02
In the special universe, where my wish comes true, Doug Ramsey would be as weird and as interesting as any mutant (possibly more - pattern identifier? "decoder"? Oooh, the weird, psychedelic fun one could have). Secondary mutations would see him get really strange.....
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:31 / 20.08.02
[Geek on, because I'm feeling left out]IN the Age of Apocalypse storyliner, Doug Ramsey was still alive and had developed his mutant power so that people all around him for a considerable distance could understand each other regardless of the language they were speaking. The combat applciations of this are obvious (people would be able to understand Rogue, for starters), although it would put Claremont out of business completely.

Loving the idea of human/mutant equity, though - two competing races united byt a common desire for property ownership. It's an odd copule-style condo-sharing comedy in the making...
 
 
Tom Coates
08:27 / 20.08.02
Doug Ramsay always seemed to me to be a profoundly interesting character - this is a guy whose powers were essentially super-human pattern recognition. He could comprehend spoken and written languages - which is one kind of skill, but he was also good at decoding stuff, and computer languages. So it's not a telepathic power as such - it's a particular type of mental aptitude - a particularly developed savantism. Now seems to me that the sheer scale of ability that this would represent would be tremendous when developed - the ability to determine meaning and interpret behaviour in a Fantomex kind of way would be fairly obvious, the ability to determine whether someone was lying - in a sense he would have a heightened appreciation of communication at least. To him, after a while, you would think that standard human communication based around intuitive interpretation of body stance and posture as well as inflection, language etc would seem simplistic or even primitive. This is a man who could be as world transformative as Professor X - based purely around the comprehension of behaviour, meaning, interpretation, language etc. etc. etc.

Essentially what I'm saying is that such a profound mutation would inevitably come to represent a transformative change in the way an individual interacts with the world and with other people - a change that would eventually push him far from basic humanity.
 
 
lentil
08:59 / 20.08.02
I obviously haven't read anywhere near as many x-men comics as some of yo. Cypher sounds very interesting though. Anyway, Fantomex's facey bullets - didn't notice that at first - I go for the "extensions of himself" rather than "sloppy reflections" theory. When one corner of his mask is unhooked and Jean begins to pick up on his thoughts he says "our minds are leaking" and continues to refer to himself in first person plural until his thoughts are taped up again. he says that he is an entirely new form of life, we know that he has other cool toys that are extensions of/grew from him, and it makes sense that Weapon 13 would build on the work of Weapon 12, which as we know has a bacterial consciousness. All of which points to Fantomex as some kind of swarm/composite entity and his bullets are groovy little lethal parts of it.
 
 
The Natural Way
09:01 / 20.08.02
Doug: Dune: Mentat. But Mentat plus.

I want to write him, damnit!
 
 
The Natural Way
09:17 / 20.08.02
Pranny suggested Reed Richards as an ambassador for human culture. Afterall, he is Mr. Fantastic; a kind of Bob Dobbs-y, pipe-smoke-y, all-round regular guy (the "Mr." component), but he's also his family's gateway to a whole world of reality bending weirdness (the "Fantastic").

He's got one foot in the mundane, the earthly, the human and the other in the stars. The perfect bridge.
 
 
some guy
11:53 / 20.08.02
Wow - some of you have great ideas for Cypher. It's a pity he's not around for Grant to write...
 
 
Spaniel
18:08 / 20.08.02
Glad to see Cypher is loved in these quarters. I've wanted to use him in my fantasy comic for the longest time.
 
  

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