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The Ultimates #6

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
The Natural Way
09:30 / 27.08.02
Just thought someone might be interested in Hitch's response to some of the criticism the book's been getting:

"It would be a shame if you did give the book a miss now, Dave. Your reaction to the last couple of issues is EXACTLY what we wanted; not of course to the extreme that you would feel forced to give up the title, but certainly your aversion to the situation and some of our character's behaviour.

It comes down really to "what makes a hero?" We have seen this subject debated on this and other boards recently, especially in light of Hanks actions in this issue. When Mark and I set out to create this book we knew it would be approached by most readers (especially those with previous Marvel experience) with a number of preconceptions, most notably the assumpton that these characters are familiar or the same as the ones seen since the sixties or earlier. When early publicty of the series showed this to be true, it also showed us that there was an expectation in certain quarters of Mark's "cynical" approach to deconstructing the heroic myth. Rather than trying to fight such preconceptions, we thought would could instead play on them to our advantage.

We have plotted very carefully through our first 24 issues not in story terms, though the broad strokes have been in place since inception, but in the charcter strokes. It sould be obvious to all by now that these people are not heroes. Yet. They have not made that journey. Yet. they are not the same as their MU counterparts. Yet. they do not have the same legendary status. Yet.

These stories and events are what will make them heroes, these are the things that will shape their legend. We start from the beginning, and right now, they are selfish, egocentric mercenaries who fight because it's their job. Without the preconceptions of the existant Marvel Universe, would anyone be so appalled? Is it through that comparison that our people's motivations pale? Probably, yes. Which is what we wanted. We need that cynicism now, a cynicism Mark is playing with. because without it the journey that is to come over the next eighteen or so issues will have less meaning as these people find themselves walking a path none of them expect. Right now they are cocky and arrogant, basking in glory and attention, however ill deserved it maybe in some cases. This can change. They will change. If they start as heroes where is the journey that defines them? It would be the same as the other books, and that is something we most definitely don't want.

Your reaction to Cap's response to Tony is interesting, as almost nobody else picked up on the subtletly of it. You're right, Steve did seem to let it go too early, that wouldn't have been the response of the Hero of Omaha Beach. This is one of those instances where we get to trade on the preconception of who Cap is, but believe me, he didn't let it go. Most of these sorts of moments are going to have huge pay-offs in the second year and they have not been inserted without reason. We have worked carefully to begin laying the foundations for what is to follow, and this is one of them. There are others in the early issues too, that will have greater significance with hindsight.

Not every hero begins his journy orphaned in an alley attack or sent to earth from a doomed planet. Not every soldier is a hero. We will find out which of The Ultimates are heroes over the next year as we build towards our climactic arc.

Millar and I aren't trying to fuck with the legends in the MU, they are intact and the same as they have always been (part of the problem!) We are trying to fuck with the preconception, though. Without the build up to issue five and the appalling events in issue five and six, what comes next will have much less meaning.

It's a shame you aren't sticking around because I really think you'll find what happens next interesting, and besides which,we have a couple of grocery lists and address books we are trying to sell to Hollywood.

Hitchy"
 
 
sobel
12:03 / 27.08.02
funny old medium is comics where the artist will build a case in order to keep hold of a reader or too.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:23 / 27.08.02
That's "two".

And The Ultimates really is a joint effort. They're both writing the book. And revealing the shape of the narrative arc is hardly "building a case" - it's simply explaining where the creators know the book will go.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
13:11 / 27.08.02
It's nice to hear what the creators say, and I'm glad they have a plan for the next two years on the book. I just don't think it's worth it for me to pay $54 for them to get their plans in place.

Your milage may vary.
 
 
sobel
13:58 / 27.08.02
thanks dassyrunce - i did mean two - but then that's me, U N D O!

I've noticed a lot of talk about the price of comics and 'bangs for your bucks' - a rather crude catchphrase, no?

I don't think comics are overpriced at all.

These are high quality products (the good ones: 100%, filth, ultimates, x-statix, loegP2, promethea, stray bullets, cumwad's revenge) with the work of many people involved - the paper quality is good and it's regular - once a month generally - thas all good stuff.

if you cant afford 54 dollars over 2 years then you don't know what entertainment is.
 
 
CameronStewart
15:50 / 27.08.02

>>>I don't think comics are overpriced at all<<<

Heh.

Heheheh.

Hahaha...HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Oh, dearie, dearie me...let me wipe my eyes.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
16:35 / 27.08.02
Hitch said: "Blah..."

Well, I'm sold. Where do I sign up?

I was somewhat icked by issue the last. Glad to know that the ick will be rectified (or that an attempt will be made, at least).
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
16:43 / 27.08.02
I've noticed at my newsagent recently, UK reprints of Ultimate Spider-Man. It has a glossy cover, and is larger than your "standard" comic (these are A4). It is printed on paper of the same quality. Every month it features three issues (and some little article things, I think).

It costs £1.95.

The latest flimsy little copy of Ultimate Spider-Man from the comic store costs £2.20 - £2.50.

And what of your normal kind of magazine? About £2.50? Every month? How many pages? Paper quality?
 
 
Sebastian
02:55 / 28.08.02
Oh, dearie, dearie me...let me wipe my eyes.

¿Uncle Cam?
 
 
rakehell
03:46 / 28.08.02
I can't believe that my first post for years is going to be a whine about the Ultimates, anyway...

I don't buy it, but read all the borrowed issues last night after following this thread. Several things bothered me.

Tony Stark being gay or bi-curious just smells of "ohhh shock" to me. Calling everyone "darling" or "sweetheart" and wearing those dressing gowns in pastel colours. The thing that actually bothered me the most is that in one of the issues he gets dressed for a meeting in a green shirt and red tie. What the heck is that? The third richest man in the world with advisers galore can't coordinate an outfit?

The domestic violence came across as completely un-foreshadowed and thus incongruent. Anything would have been better than nothing, a teary phone-call, an unbelievable excuse for a suspicious bruise. Perhaps my views were tainted by the point expressed here, but it seemed very out of place.

The Thor character seems straight out of Ben Elton's "This Other Eden". Though that really could be me reading too much into it and I actually liked his portrayal but then I have a soft spot for characters who are environmental activists - especially (semi)militant ones.

The constant and forced pop-culture references. Everyone throwing TV show and movie references around. Every time I read one of those I cringed.

I also don't like the way that Nick Fury is the only character who speaks casual and street. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the "hip black guy" schtic is...

I guess my problem with the entire book is that it seems very cliched. Nothing new, nothing different, also; nothing happened. Same old superheroes dressed in new clothes.

All those points above illustrate why I'm not buying the book, or have any intention of starting. Just thought I'd add my thoughts to the pile.
 
 
Sebastian
13:30 / 28.08.02
~De Jade wrote: Anyone can provide a link to someplace with page previews? I'm interested in the art mentioned in this thread, and I don't think The Ultimates will be published around here so soon...

Though of you when I ran into The art of comics. Except for the coloring, its most of the book there without the script.
 
 
Graeme McMillan
14:51 / 28.08.02
Hitch said "These stories and events are what will make them heroes, these are the things that will shape their legend. We start from the beginning, and right now, they are selfish, egocentric mercenaries who fight because it's their job... the journey that is to come over the next eighteen or so issues will have less meaning as these people find themselves walking a path none of them expect. Right now they are cocky and arrogant, basking in glory and attention, however ill deserved it maybe in some cases. This can change. They will change. If they start as heroes where is the journey that defines them? It would be the same as the other books, and that is something we most definitely don't want."

Oh dear God, please do not let Millar go "Well, Giant Man beat up his wife, but that was before he saved the world, now he's a hero". That would be fucking repugnant.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
15:17 / 28.08.02
I think the intent here is to explore the previous notion of heroes being flawless. I have the feeling that there will be consequences to Hank's actions. I see no reason why we can't simultaneously condemn him for being a wife-beater and commend him for saving the world, or why Hank couldn't begin to redeem himself through selfless acts. Shades of grey are being added to the paradigm here. We might just have to start judging super-books on the same criteria as we do w/more complex works of fiction (gasp!).
 
 
The Natural Way
15:25 / 28.08.02
Yeah, it might be even worse to keep him as a fucked up "baddy".
 
 
Graeme McMillan
19:36 / 28.08.02
"Shades of grey are being added to the paradigm here. We might just have to start judging super-books on the same criteria as we do w/more complex works of fiction (gasp!)."

I've got no problem doing that. I just have a problem with Mark Millar being the one to proclaim that he's going to do it, as his work so far has shown nothing resembling subtlety, which is what doing the above would require.
 
 
glassonion
21:23 / 28.08.02
it doesn't feel unsubtle, it only looks it. point above: ironman's mismatched shirt/tie combo he's a wacky billionaire right? crap shirts? would rather have folk snigger at him for being gay than them know he's a shiftless thrill-addicted dying alcoholic? none of what we've seen in the ultimates feels wrong - dialogue in the wifebeaty bit implies strongly that their fun in the past has been a bit rough, but this time the bipolar genius with an inferiority complex hits a new low. so much of this spectacle book is about what it doesn't show us. maybe i just look too close. i'm keen to see thor's dark side - they're all alien lizards from skrullos i tell ya!
 
 
sobel
08:00 / 29.08.02
natch
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:38 / 29.08.02
Thought on the Hank/Janet dust-up - I'm with g-onion. The fight looked very much like a superhero one, all surging from the ground with fists clenched mightily, using powers and equipment and shit, and appeared to be something they've done before. I'm no expert on the series or the (basis for) characters' previous Marvel history, but I felt as though we were watching the preliminary to something saucy gone wrong... and I felt that was what Janet thought, too... at first "should I use the safe word?" and then "no safe word is going to cut it here".

But the 'head in hands', "Dear Gahd, what have I done" was bad seventies comix. Very bad.
 
 
sobel
11:36 / 29.08.02
and didn't his feet look huge, too!
 
 
Sebastian
20:51 / 30.09.02
Yeah, yeah, I know I'm late on asking this, but have any of you actually solved that line from Hank:

"There's a picture of you with your tongue down Captain America's throat in every newspaper in the world. You've turned me into a laughinghstock."

I am just looking at a new fresh TPB and it sort of throws the whole thing down the toilet, unless it is Hank's delusion, but Wasp doesn't react in any way to support this.

My take is that she did kiss Cap while playing the celebrity game so much commented upon in this last issue. Otherwise, it just doesn't make much of a sense to have it missed in between pannels, precisely because most of this celebrity game that is going on is indeed being missed between pannels, and we only learn about it from comments of Fury, Stark and Thor.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
21:07 / 30.09.02
at the time of reading I took it to mean that wasp had been flirting bigtime with cap america: rehabilitating him, coaxing him into the 21st century, basically spendinhg a ot of time with the big block.

And Hank was just being a severe, jealous, exagerrating male twat-stuffer when he said what he said.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:56 / 01.10.02
And maybe she gave him a big adrenalin fueled peck after the fight, the cameras caught it and yet again w/ the twat-suffering.

Why has this been such a source of confusion for so many people?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
09:34 / 01.10.02
Runce - I think you've worked it out there - that's what's happened.
 
 
CameronStewart
12:21 / 01.10.02
>>>Why has this been such a source of confusion for so many people? <<<

Because it's not shown in the comic, and as the trigger incident for Jan and Hank's fight, it bloody should have been. Hitchy should have drawn a newspaper on the table somewhere, with the photo clearly visible. Even if it wasn't described in the script, common sense says he should have put it in. He's allowed to do things like that, you know...
 
 
moriarty
13:08 / 01.10.02
"Yes, Cam, Stan and Jack were able to toss both action and drama into their super-hero stew, but you have to admit that it was pretty one-dimensional on both counts."

Funny. I didn't hear the alarms in my head go off.

The Jan/Hank thing. I had the same impression as Glassonion and Jack the Bodiless. I thought tossing each other around using their powers was something they did for kicks, and it got out of hand. Or maybe it didn't, and the extreme nature of this encounter is something that they've enjoyed before, but now Jan might be getting sick of it. Or not.

Increasing the page count in comics is a pretty brilliant thing to do, I think. One of the reasons comics aren't on the newstands anymore is because their price is actually too low. The amount of profit that can be generated from them isn't worth it for the sales they have or for the space they take. A thicker, slightly more expensive comic would make a lot of sense, and is something a few companies are working on. The problem? Most people want it botrh ways, with a huge monthly of original material by one art team. In the past when this kind of project would be done (DC's Dollar comics), you would find an original story or two and a whole bunch of reprints. Sometimes all the stories would be themed (all Batman tales) and other times you'd have a few Superman stories with Rip Hunter and Vigilante.

I agree that the Ultimate line has lost its way from its original concept, but I long ago gave up expecting Marvel to change the industry for the better. They're in it for themselves, and no, I don't see anything wrong with that. But if they aren't going to take the chance and stick with it, someone else will, and Marvel, DC and all the rest will have to play catch-up.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:09 / 01.10.02
Say, do they still publish this comic? People were freaking out about NXM being off-schedule, but I don't think it was ever as late as Ultimates #7.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
13:39 / 01.10.02
Did anyone else notice that CSN had Hawkeye on the cover, but skipped past it in the 'coming attractions' section inside?

what was that?

Is it THAT late??
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
13:40 / 01.10.02
Also, anyone else seen the prelim art for 'Ultimate War'? Avengers vs X-Men?

I dunno what I think of this, but... it would be the first strike if it sucks.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:54 / 01.10.02
Yeah, Hitch is on the record over at Millarworld (urrgh) promising to pull his socks up. It's shocking how many people over there DON'T view the book's consistent lateness as a problem.

Cam: I guess I've never really understood the Steve/Jan kissing thing as the catalyst for the scrap. I figured it was a whole bunch of stuff. I agree that Hitch should've shown something (and I'm surprised he didn't: The Ultimates is, along w/ the League, one of the most...umm...collaborative comics out there) , but I don't think it's hard to figure out what happened.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:03 / 01.10.02
The art for Ult war's Bachalo. Sometimes I like 'im, sometimes I don't. Used to enjoy his stuff on Gen X (which, I have to admit, is my one guilty concession to evil90's X-books). From what I've seen the preview stuff looks alright.
 
 
CameronStewart
14:14 / 01.10.02
>>>I don't think it's hard to figure out what happened. <<<

It's not entirely incomprehensible, you can figure it out, but the relatively large number of people here and elsewhere who have commented on it ("What did Hank mean when he said that? Did we miss something?") suggests that keeping it "off-camera" didn't work all that well.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:24 / 01.10.02
Yr right.

Off panel stuff really screws w/ some readers.

No wonder the Invisibles left so many readers shaking their heads.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
15:16 / 01.10.02
we need a word for 'between panel' shtuff, don't we?

maybe something with 'gutter' in it.

dunno.
 
 
Sebastian
16:33 / 01.10.02
Moriarty wrote: A thicker, slightly more expensive comic would make a lot of sense, and is something a few companies are working on.

Again, The Ultimates has brought the discussion of format to the table. I grew up reading Asterix, Tintin, Lucky Luke, which were released once or twice a year, with a story, a plot, and artwork that would motivate revisiting it each month for the following ten years, and I also read Spiderman, Hulk, and others, which in my country were published monthly, but with two or three issues per book if I remember correctly.

If monthly books do turn thicker, I would definitely fear a loss of quality in artwork, as we have come to suffer collectively in many recent cases. I definitely don't push this for Ultimates, unless you are talking about Archie.

For example, I felt like an asshole having bought the released individual issues of the Ultimates while browsing through the TPB to find out that artistically it was almost a new book, with much more inked detail, and a lot care towards the coloring, revealing things that are decidedly missing in many gloomy and rough passages of the individual issues, no to speak of issue #5. For me, it wouldn't have mattered if they had started soliciting the title two months ago and then they release "the book", vol 1, and six months later vol 2. This has some creative pits that are cowardly being avoided now with the monthlies and all the ongoing fuzzing in web-boards, of course, but Alan Moore doesn't need that, in any case.

Also, Bendis said Ultimate Spider-Man's story arcs are being written as graphic novels that, of course, read better once collected. And he says he also has not to plan in advance how many issues will take for a story arc, 'cause the deal is to get them collected in TPs whatever they take, something I doubt anyway, 'cause they are all consistently the same amount of "chapters".
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
21:37 / 01.10.02
People were freaking out about NXM being off-schedule, but I don't think it was ever as late as Ultimates #7.

I subscribed to all of the Marvel titles I buy about a month ago, and they told me that I could expect to receive The Ultimates starting w/issue 9. It kind of sucks that I'm going to have to wait six months for my subscription to start, but it seems like a pretty good deal to have The Ultimates delivered to my door for the next three-and-a-half years...
 
  

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