BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


The Ultimates #6

 
  

Page: (1)234

 
 
The Natural Way
12:02 / 15.08.02
FUCKING GREAT BIG SPOILERS.

I have to admit, I could dig the whole Hank-shrunk-Jan thing, but her 'Wasp Sting (tm)' had me scratching my head. When did Hank have time to design that shit? How easy is it to knock up designer super-heroes anyway?

Simple, elegant rationalisation. Nice one, Millar.

Well, the "nasty streak" was back big time this ish. I love the way all the solicitations were like "it's Giant Man versus the Wasp! etc..." as though 6's spousal beating sesh was gonna be like some kinda team-up ish straight outta the 80s. The old cliche of the super-scrap bubbling around in my head just made the fisticuffs all the more horrifying. And FLY SPRAY! WRONG! EVIL! PERFECT!

And the ants.... brrr....



Ummm...she'd better not stay with that fucking wanker.

Loved the nod to "Alfred".

Tumors?

Book 2?

Where do we go from here....?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
12:06 / 15.08.02
eh?
 
 
The Natural Way
12:11 / 15.08.02
Well everything's all fucked up, isn't it?

Banner fucked (and I knew out of the two science types Banner was the better man. In every respect), Stark terminally ill, Hank going to town on Jan....

Cap must kick that fucker's arse. Now.

I hate that fucker w/ his "I'm turning inside out!" eviljokes.

Millar really gets the balance right between soap and widescreen w/ this one. I love this comic. Between the Ultimates and The Filth I'm having a lovely afternoon.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:13 / 15.08.02
Whoops! Can the moderators please change the title to "6".

Having to dodge the boss. Brain not working rite.
 
 
CameronStewart
13:27 / 15.08.02
I honestly can't remember - has there been any sort of indication at all in the past 5 issues that Hank and Jan had a bad marriage, or that he had violent tendencies? The fight was vicious and effectively unsettling but came out of nowhere - it seemed to be very out of character for both of them based on what we've seen so far.

I'm also confused as to where this photograph that's mentioned of Wasp kissing Cap came from - we haven't seen that either, have we? I don't accept the "it happened between panels" excuse - a trigger incident for something that big deserves to be seen, I think.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:38 / 15.08.02
She probably pecked him. Hank was angry and exagerating.

And there have been subtle hints. The idea (tho' now proved false) that Hank shrunk his wife, and the made himself *bigger* ("Giant Man" for fuck's sake); the sadistic jokes about "turning inside out"; his immature, insecure competetive streak (which, though not aimed directly at Jan, wafts off him like cheap perfume) and Jan's refferal (in ish 2) to the "new start" the Ultimates is gonna provide them.

It's been bubbling under the surface for ages, Cam. In fact, I really like the way it's been handled.
 
 
Tamayyurt
14:06 / 15.08.02
Yeah, me too. I don't think it came out of nowhere. It's always been lurking about. I do agree about the picture of Wasp kissing Cap, they should have shown it.

Great issue... kinda made me sick though. It was the ants. And the, "you should've never made me feel small" line. ::chills::
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:07 / 15.08.02
Well, I never noticed any sort of foreshadowing about this - it seems like Millar is jumping into the "Hank Pym is a wifebeating sad sack loser" a little too early on, I think.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:21 / 15.08.02
However, I just listed some of the foreshadowing soooo....

Pay more attention, lad!
 
 
CameronStewart
14:27 / 15.08.02
I just had a scan through the earlier issues and I still don't see any previous indication of Hank as a (now over the) borderline wifebeater. Aside from the one line about "a new start" Millar's portrayed them as a happy loving couple throughout, almost always addressing each other with cutesy pet names and so on. Even the "inside-out" prank you reference isn't, to my eyes, particularly sadistic - Jan's reaction to it isn't angry or upset ( e.g "you sick bastard, you think that's funny?"), she's got a big broad grin on her face.

When Hank slapped her it made my eyes widen, and I found it genuinely surprising and shocking. However, his sudden shift to outright malevolent sadism (spraying her with bug poison and making gleeful comments when doing so, siccing his army of ants on her - and the suggestion that this has happened before) didn't have any foundation - as I said, I thought it was a very frightening scene but also very inappropriate in the context of the characters as they've been established so far. It didn't read to me like the inevitable extension of their relationship - it seemed, like much of Millar's writing, to be thrown in for shock value.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:51 / 15.08.02
Cam, I don't think it matters how Jan responded to Hank's "joke". It was nasty, deliberately hurtful and in VERY bad taste.

Look, I do agree that there was an Element of BANG! to the wife-beating thing, but there were clues. I've had a nasty feeling about Hank for ages (as did impulsivelad, pranny and glassonion). This ish forced me to qualify what that nagging feeling actually was.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
15:00 / 15.08.02
well I'm a bit surprised at everyones reaction to the wifebeating thing: firstly - a lot of couples who are seemingly happy are locked into this kind of shit and secondly the violent one usually snaps over very small incidents, remarks etc and act psychotic 'all of a sudden', so even tho I've not read it yet, it sounds as if millar's got it right.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:01 / 15.08.02
I just looked through all those issues, and I can see what Runce is saying, but it's so throwaway, and I think that this is definitely a typical lame-brained Millar shock value stunt. I think that anyone who wasn't familiar with the original Avengers comics would be scratching their head and be VERY confused by this sudden, tacked-on bit of misogynist violence.

Ever notice how women are always victims of the most brutal and hateful violence in pretty much anything Millar writes?
 
 
Jack Fear
15:43 / 15.08.02
Or faggots.
 
 
CameronStewart
15:51 / 15.08.02
>>>Cam, I don't think it matters how Jan responded to Hank's "joke". It was nasty, deliberately hurtful and in VERY bad taste.<<<

I guess...but as Flux says I don't think that, as written, it was really meant to be a significant piece of character exposition - I think it was just a throwaway thing that Millar thought was funny.

I think if you're going to argue that it deliberately reveals a sadistic streak in Hank, Jan's reaction is crucial - sadism is about inflicting pain on others and so Hank would be looking for her to be angry or upset. Instead she laughs at the joke - "Oh, you big silly."

Had Jan reacted as I suggested above, annoyed at Hank for playing such a juvenile stunt and hurt that he'd play with her feelings like that - then I'd have zero argument with you. It's a small thing but I think it makes all the difference.

I'd also have liked one line, just one, somewhere previously that indicated that he'd hit her before, or that sometimes she felt scared of him, or whatever. Just one line would have justified the violence in this issue, I think (from a story standpoint, I mean, not justified him hitting her - before the Barbepedants pull out the knives).

>>>I think that anyone who wasn't familiar with the original Avengers comics would be scratching their head and be VERY confused by this sudden, tacked-on bit of misogynist violence.<<<

This is interesting Flux - I'm not terribly familiar with all the Avengers history - does this whole thing have roots in the old comics? Please explain...
 
 
Jack Fear
15:55 / 15.08.02
Yup. Hank was written as a wifebeater beginning in the 1980s, in a vain and ham-fisted attempt to turn him into an interesting character. He and Jan ended up getting divorced and blah blah fishcakes, in the best soap-operatic tradition.
 
 
CameronStewart
17:35 / 15.08.02
Ah....see, I didn't know this. If I had, the scene in question might have been a lot less jarring. This is meant to be accessible to new readers, right? With no previous knowledge of the characters necessary?

I still maintain that there should have been more foreshadowing. This is a comic about giants, rampaging monsters, magic hammers and flying suits of battle-armour. I don't think painting with broad strokes is such a bad idea. A few well-placed and revealing lines throughout the previous five issues (in place of the scene where they discuss who would play them all in the movie - possibly the most needless and wasteful pages of this or any other series) would have set it up nicely.

I do like this series, by the way, in spite of all my bitching about it. Byan Hitch is a spectacular artist and I find it compelling enough to keep coming back every month - I just see huge-ass problems with it that make it a bit frustrating to read at times...
 
 
The Natural Way
18:22 / 15.08.02
Okay, I concede. It could've been foreshadowed better.

But I really don't see what the big problems are, Cam. I love the pacing, the economy, the art, the Ultimate's rationalisation and the big, bad military/industrial complex feel to the thing. Equally get off on the soap operatics and, inspite of the grouches above, I do get a strong feel for the characters. It's a good soap and a good movie/big budget TV show and I really think it's the funnest thing Millar's pulled out of his hat yet.
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:40 / 15.08.02
well, aside from the vague recollection of the 80's version of the wife beating thing, what I would consider a clue was the focus on Meds hat accompanied the introduction of Hank & Jan. Prozac was it? So there was some indication that this guy was a bit unstable. The then recient successes entering into the Ultimates along with the "new" medications seemed to be the basis fo their new start. So "we" as well as the rest of the Ultimates team only saw their best behavior... obivious to the dark secrets they both had... Her being a mutant & him being a nutjob.

So after the embarisment of his "defeat" he probably stopped taking his meds... instead throwing himself into his work. Granted this wasn't mentioned, but it seemed inferred to me when Jan comented on how cranky he gets when he spends so much time working... Combined with his shaggy appearance... the first thing that occured to me was:
"uh-Oh... this guy's depressed & probably stoped taking his meds"

So while shocking, the violence seemed to be somewhat in context. Then on that final page we see hank sobbing & regretful... and in the corner of the mess we see an open bottle of pills. Might he have swallowed a few of them between panels once ther was no more fight?

I agree the "Jan-kissing-Cap" should have been shown somewhere... on the cover of a magazine on someone's table... something.
 
 
Spaniel
20:27 / 15.08.02
Kiss missing. Bad!

While the foreshadowing was slight, I maintain that it was present. Regarding Cam's point about sadistic gags: it is more than common for our actions to have unintentional results. Just because you miss with the knife, doesn't make your intentions any less hurtful. Granted, however, for a reader of fiction hurtful results could have made for a clearer message.

It is also worth pointing out that the whole Jan's a mutant revelation operates as a pretty slick bit of retroactive storytelling. The guy's been expoiting his wife for months (if not years); all those cheeky grins and comments about how "he's the best" begin to take on a very different light.

And another thing. Okay so Millar's a bit of a shock-monger. So what? The wife beating coming out of nowhere trick's as old as the hills. It may be slightly clumsy in some respects, and it sure as shit is unoriginal, but it's pretty effective when it comes to the - pardon the pun - punch. Ultimately (ignore pun), the question of whether Millar's shock tactics are problematic or not can only be answered further down the road. If Hank and Jan's relationship is handled sensibly, and perhaps sensitively, from this moment on, then we have a winner, if on the other hand we don't, then issue 6 is gonna look more than a tad tasteless.

Other stuff:

Jarvis the poof. Good Good.

In fact lots of good.

Love Ultimates. Best superheroes.
 
 
Spaniel
20:30 / 15.08.02
Ever notice how women are always victims of the most brutal and hateful violence in pretty much anything Millar writes?

V unsure about this. I can think of many many example of hateful violence being perpetrated against men.
 
 
CameronStewart
06:05 / 16.08.02
>>Jarvis the poof. Good Good.<<<

Not just Jarvis - there's a couple of sly indicators that Stark might also be gay and/or a transvestite...
 
 
houdini
06:06 / 16.08.02
Say did anyone see the one page "Ultimate Peanuts" written by Brian Michael Bendis in the latest issue of 'Powers'? In which it is revealled that Woodstock has been reinvented as a bi-curious leather biker...?

Let's face it; Millar is slacking.
 
 
The Natural Way
10:01 / 20.08.02
So...missed Millar chat last night, but here's what I gleaned this morning. No Skrulls, no Kree, no Doom (wait for Morrison's Ultimate FF, kids), no Ultron ("in any way you'd recognise"), but there'll be terrorists and something wicked this way comes for book 2.

And here's a bit more on book 2:

"The next story I'm writing at the moment. Besides the big plot stuff, we've got a flashback to Cap fighting aliens on the roof of a moving train in ww2, we've got reprisals from the Hank and Jan fight, we've got Hawkeye playing golf (hole in one every time), we've got Iron Man shagging Black Widow in a broom closet when he's showing her around the Triskelion. Lots of good stuff. More Banner too-- though not necessarily more Hulk."

Oh, and it seems The Red Skull's still on the cards.........
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
10:07 / 20.08.02
good stuff.

really enjoyed ish 6 tho some of the trialogue between cap, tony and thor was a bit weak - I'll go into morwe detail if threatened - despite this, I enjoyed seeing these three massive men 'swordfighting' so to speak.

the words that bothered me:

so thor.........or a big guy with a hammer?
 
 
The Natural Way
10:19 / 20.08.02
Why?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
10:49 / 20.08.02
It didn't feel like dialogue.

It felt like Millar was setting up his parameters for what cap, thor and stark would say but then forgot about characterisation, intonation etc.

That whole scene (which i enjoyed - the panel layout was fantastic, the depth of the art, the panning into the big room - all very spacious and beautifully executed) read like one voice spilled over three characters.

it seemed a bit hollow.

minor niggle
 
 
Sebastian
11:55 / 20.08.02
On Hank, Jan, and Cap, I remember how insistently praising and flattering was Jan to Cap when they did the shopping, which was some sort of an indication of her being finally in contact with what she would perceive as a more "real" man than her husband. I have to re-read that scene anyway and judge back, but I take it was sort of an indication.

It would probably be quite emotionally destabilizing for anyone to hang too close among super-men, not to imagine if you are a woman married for too long to a frustrated scientist obsessed with size.

Anyway, I wonder how is the whole thing going to read as collected in TPB, but in a sense I feel already biased to appreciate the-story-as-a-whole.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
12:29 / 20.08.02
Strange that hank should be obsessed with size when millar’s given him a healthy seven inches.

(from millar chat last night – honest)
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
01:29 / 22.08.02
My memory is not in its best shape lately, my first issues of Ultimates are with a friend, and #6 has not arrived here yet. But I remember that scene on the hill when Hank first tests his giant costume. Janet said he looked like a pervert or a psycho, didn't she?

Guess Yawn has a point about domestic violence coming 'out of nowhere' a lot of times.
 
 
the Fool
04:41 / 22.08.02
Not just Jarvis - there's a couple of sly indicators that Stark might also be gay and/or a transvestite...

I noticed that as well. He seem to be coming on to Thor during the dinner...
 
 
bio k9
06:35 / 22.08.02
Yay! The new Vertigo.
 
 
The Natural Way
07:10 / 22.08.02
I didn't get that Stark as gay/tranny thing at all. He keeps his Mum's clothes...so what? My Mother kept all my Nan's clothes. The only purpose that sequence serves is to illustrate Jarvis's sexual bent. And where the fuck is he "coming on to Thor"?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
07:17 / 22.08.02
there was a certain erotic frission to the mighty menage a trois, non?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
07:33 / 22.08.02
Admittedly, it’s a bit obvious (and tired?) to infer homo-action whenever three uber-muscled power mongers get together for a meal (lets at least remember that this was circum-chance: the other Ultimates were expected but didn’t show) but it was difficult to ignore the undercurrents– much in the same way that WWF (wrestlers not pandas) inspires such thoughts. A rather simplified viewpoint of ‘Iron-Man’s’ penetrative targeting of the Hulk in the vast cavern of Grand Central station renders the act as a metaphor for Stark’s underlying desire for control through sex and violence. (see me after class, yawn – this sentence is simply too long and quite frankly, a lot of bollocks)

Despite this retro-fit, I didnae spot the pheromonic dance ‘tween Stark ‘n Thor.

And any such development would damage millar’s credentials.

He’s done it before with Superman and Batman – why do it again with these guys?

Unless he’s a money-slut……
 
  

Page: (1)234

 
  
Add Your Reply