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What's Love Got To Do With It? (Defining Bisexuality)

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:06 / 13.07.05
Um, I'm not sure everyone did say she was talking crap, did they? See Dread Pirate Crunchy on page 1 and others...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:35 / 13.07.05
She's not talking crap, she's defining her own sexuality.

Didn't I say that? I think it's much more interesting to look at why and how she is defining her sexuality, and whether that and talking crap are, for that matter, exclusive.

Also, when you define your sexuality, you can't really avoid defining other people's sexuality as well, can you? Take pansexuality above; that has the complementary effect of defining what bisexuality (for starters) isn't - just as for Cameron's friend bisexuality isn't sleeping with men and women (or more precisely, the male- and female-identified), but having relationships with both, so a pansexual has to start by identifying what bisexuals don't do, which I have to say doesn't tally with my experience of people who identify as bisexual. That may, of course, just be because bisexual is a handy umbrella for people who do not feel comfortable as "gay" or "straight", and so if more taxonomical groups existed people would move out of identifying as bisexual and into a more comfortable or accurate taxonomy.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:46 / 13.07.05
hmm. Yeah, I'd agree, Quantum, that there isn't much 'she's talking crap' in the responses. There's a certain amount of critique and investigation into what she's doing by not identifying herself as bi, and why she might (aware or not) be doing that, which is a very different thing.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:54 / 13.07.05
bisexual is a handy umbrella for people who do not feel comfortable as "gay" or "straight", and so if more taxonomical groups existed people would move out of identifying as bisexual and into a more comfortable or accurate taxonomy

Indeed. As this thread and others have demonstrated, often when biseuxality is discussed several things often happen:

a) people whose behaviour might be considered to fall within the category of bisexual discuss why they don't ID that way.

b) people who do id that way discuss the extent to which it's an imperfect/incomplete description and that to an extent 'bisexual' functions as Haus describes above

c)people who *do* identify as bisexual explain where they stand

and then sometimes, (the bit I really like!) these tensions/variations lead on to:

d) Deva's lovely notion of bisexuality as being 'that which queers' existing definitions.

This does not mean that 'everyone's bisexual', but can mean, that along with other discourses, an undoing of the strength/narrowness of existing categories for those who are interested in this.
 
 
Quantum
16:42 / 13.07.05
Cameron Stewart who started the thread- 'Is she talking as much rubbish as I think she is?'
Grame McMillan- 'yes'
Iszabelle- 'Yes, it's rubbish. Very fragrant bi-phobic rubbish that's just reeking of het privilege.'
Our Lady of the two towers- 'Yes she is'

Sorry if my post was a little late in the game, it's mostly aimed at those early posts decrying the girl as a biphobic idiot who's deluding herself- that gets my back up. Excuse me while I politely bow out of the bi-theory debate, my 'most people are bi to some extent' position is pretty much redundant.
 
 
fuckbaked
18:15 / 18.07.05
I think someone ought to do a study wherein they ask bisexual guys to bring in porn that turns them on, some of which features men and some of which features women. By doing this, they would only get men who are turned on by porn to participate, and I'd be willing to bet a hell of a lot of money that they'd find that the bisexual men are indeed turned on by both men and women. I'm bisexual, and I think the women in the average straight porn are butt-ugly. If I were in Bailey's study, he'd have decided that I'm gay, I just know it. I know I'm not gay.

That said, I wouldn't be caught dead in one of Bailey's studies.
 
 
HCE
18:34 / 18.07.05
Quick informal poll among my lesbian friends finds a marked preference for gay male porn because it is 'pornier'.

Go figure.
 
 
This Sunday
20:29 / 18.07.05
I think the response of the study would be: you/they are faking it. Fooling yourself. After all, there's been a study and everything, rigorous constructed situations of science... sort of like someone bakes a terrible cake, and when you decline a second piece, they're "I thought you liked chocolate cake? You said you liked chocolate cake, but you must be mistaken," and if you take a slice of oh, strawberry cake instead, they latch onto that, not because it just isn't as shit as their mangled chocolate cake with the ipecac taste, but because, obviously, subconsciously, you really like strawberry and have convinced yourself you like chocolate for social reasons or something.
And, yes, someone needs to start using, "Sorry, your chocolate cake is shit and does nothing for me," as a rejection line. To ugly pornstars or whomever needs it.
 
 
macrophage
20:22 / 25.07.05
I consider myself as a bisexual man I'd rather prefer straight hardcore porn anyday. My ex once put on gay male porn when we were having a good shag she was well into it I wasn't that bothered. She was bi as well & I have to admit I'd get jealous of her looking at Lesbian Porn when I went to night school. Maybe I'm an uptight bi who conforms to the stereotypes of the heterosexualised world. Some women love gay male porn and others don't. I consider it a must to go out with bi women as straight women sometimes think you will shag men behind their back or get caught getting a blowjob from the next man who lives within sweaty BO distance. Each to their own. Of course there seems alot of people about who can't get to grips with other people's bisexualities. Homophobia resides as a sick fucking disease, some people that seem part of so called alternaculture seem just mirrors of the so called society that they apparently stand up for. Bisexuality appears as a win-win situation on all grounds. Depends on how you want to label it whether around spooning, penetrations, oral sex, etc. Some men fear penetration up their arse and also social standings depends on what their parents or peers were like.
 
 
Kirk Ultra
10:53 / 29.07.05
Why do people need to label themselves at all? Would people who call themselves gay still have sex with people of the same gender if they didn't go around calling themselves gay all the time? Would straight people still have hetero sex if they didn't call themselves straight? Doesn't most "sexual confusion" and "identity crises" come from not being able to live up to the labels they've placed upon themselves? The thought boxes they've put themselves into? Look at the movie Chasing Amy for example (yeah, yeah, no need to bash it, its just the first movie that came to mind), the whole movie is just that girl crying over how she can't be with Ben Afleck because it goes against the word "lesbian" that she'd labeled herself with.

Earlier in this thread, one person actually said something like, "Without a label I don't exist, and certainly can't find community," but that's rediculous. Of course you exist. Of course you can find community.

I've rejected all labels of myself (not just sexual labels) since high school and its only made me happier. I like men and i like women even more, and i'm also quite fascinated and turned on by hermaphrodites and transexuals; not to mention sci-fi sex robots, space aliens, and tentacled amorphous lovecraft weirdies. Does that make me bisexual? Pansexual? Omnisexual? Who cares? Why do i need to call myself any of these things? They're just parts we play.

The sooner we do away with labels like straight, gay, bi, left, right, republican, democrat, black, white, man, woman, American, European, etc etc the better off we'll all be. Labeling ourselves just segregates us off into seperate groups and makes it easier to hate each other. I like to be zen with it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:46 / 29.07.05
Thanks for that, Kirk. Now, as a thought exercise, could you tell us some reasons why you think somebody might want to identify as bisexual? For that matter, as somebody who generally is attracted to and forms relationships with women, might you feel up to discussing how labels might operate without yoour conscious involvement?
 
 
Kirk Ultra
12:21 / 29.07.05
To indicate that they like having sex with both men and women, or as a general description for oneself that doesn't involve going into all the specific likes/dislikes a person has (like the kinds described all throughout this thread). I'd say another reason was to form community or group yourself with other bisexuals, but there doesn't really seem to be a bisexual community in the same way that there is a "gay" community. Or if there is its on a much smaller scale. Many bisexuals seem to pride themselves on their independence from the straight and gay communities.

Its also good for light conversation. Most people, when they ask if your straight or gay or bi aren't actually that interested in your whole philosophy on sexuality and gender, they just want to know who you like to shag. When people ask me that question I usually tell them i'm bi or omni, mainly because i can't be bothered going into in any more detail with them. Especially if its somebody i don't know very well or don't care about. "I don't like to label myself, but basically I'm bi." It lets you gloss over it quickly without having to make a big thing out of it. And a lot of people just don't care very much about the different interpretations of the label and are just happy calling themselves bi.

Another reason is our culture in general has a very strong fear and obsession with sex and sexuality, so such labels do exist in part because of outside persecution.

My dislike of labels is more of a zen/philosophical thing. Dissillusion of identity and all that fun Invisibles stuff. And as I said before, its not just sexual labels I don't like, its all labels. As harmful as I think they are to our society as a whole though, it does seem to be our natural instinct to segregate ourselves in this way.
 
 
This Sunday
17:58 / 29.07.05
The only sense I can make out of someone establishing a named identity for themselves is that a word-cage can keep you restrained but it can, like a shark-cage, protect, too. In a purely political sense, rallying under THIS ONE THING I AM can appear strengthening and beneficial, which I don't believe it is, but enough people do to make it a common practice.
The problem, to me, is when people label themselves,they get all panicky and identi-crisised when they feel an urge to step outside the boundaries of that word. Guys I knew before they'd announced themselves gay, still collecting copies of 'Maxim' and obviously interested in women sexually, adopting an 'eeewww, no, I could never, well, not anymore' stance, because now they are GAY. Now, my inclination is to call bullshit, sure, but it's not my call. They put the name on themselves, and it's like saying somebody can't say they're a christian and then do whatever the hell they like and justify it, or a hippy, republican, godzilla.
Getting labeled... well, everyone gets labeled, and it restricts you socially (and thus, economically, et cet.) but that's out of your hands, and I tend to just ignore the label and keep going. Be they socially acceptable (homosexual, African American, et al) or the more - a lot of peopl might say/think but not in front of just anybody (fag, bitch, republican) - and terms from one person to another do greatly shift meaning because of who is saying and who is being labeled - they are all socially constraining.
If it weren't for the fact that, in my experience, as soon as you swear off something - usually by taking a label that means 'I do not do X' - that thing, within a short period becomes horribly attractive, and the resultant identity crises I've seen too many go through warring with what they are, what they want, and what they are and want is called, maybe I wouldn't be so down on the label concept.
Other times, as especially in terms of sex(uality) or tactile issues, labels just don't make a whole lotta sense: the plethora of trannies used at random often (transsexual, transgender, trans music ^_^) and iterations, or the give-vs-receive not all-the-way-gay. I've, over the years, been told by at least five different people who had no contact with each other, male and female, that I 'kiss like a girl' which, when you get down to it, manages to label me in way that is semantically confused if not outright empty. It doesn't even have the social history to draw on for a meaning, like 'you throw like a girl.' In the same way, it's been argued that Euro-cultures haven't had homosexuality in the current sense for more than, what, a hundred years and some change?
Where I grew up a lot of my childhood, being called 'white' was about the most insulting thing you could have thrown at you - and being light-skinned and under certain circumstances, loudmouthed, I got it a lot - but in the greater context of the world, it doesn't matter much. I self-identify when forced to check a box on stupid forms, as 'mixed' and that's a cheat to avoid limiting myself to A, B, or Y - so, I'm thinking maybe that's the best answer to a lot of these identity questions, sexual or what have you.
"Are you gay, bi, straight, or someone's seat cushion and tea-fetcher?"
"Let me check my calendar... Oh, yes: a little from section A, a little from section B." Sexual preference defined by quoting Homer Simpson.
If I wasn't so braindead tired, this'd be half as long, but I'm posting it rather than deleting, just to see if I can escape it later.
 
 
*
18:04 / 29.07.05
Kirk, it's all very well to say that labels hinder us in certain ways, of course they do. But they also open up certain ways of organizing and creating change that are currently impossible without some kind of group identity, because of the labelful way all of society is constructed (which indeed springs from the fact that this is the way humans process information). And while you're being zen, there are reasons why there appears to be less bisexual community than gay community.

In my experience, bisexuals don't pride ourselves on independence from the gay and straight communities. Some of us do, perhaps. I rather lament the fact that I can't be included in either the gay or the straight community without sacrificing a part of myself or being rendered invisible (in the negative lower-case "I" sense, fanboy *grin*). The gay community has historically not been very kind or receptive to bi people, and the straight community is willing to tolerate us only so long as we pretend to be straight. For this and other reasons, bi people often go underground or integrate themselves with one or the other community, rather than forming a strong community of identity of our own. Some of us are trying it, with things like the Fencesitter's Ball, but I don't think that counts as being proud of our independence from the gay and straight "worlds". After all, many of the people we love and fuck are gay and straight— Dan Savage's recent advice that bisexuals should stick to just dating other bisexuals notwithstanding.

Opposition to labels is fine in a philosophical sense. But in the world of maya, the world outside comic books (I can't believe I just said that), there are social realities which have to be acknowleged before they can be changed.
 
 
Kirk Ultra
04:03 / 30.07.05
When I said independance from gay and straight communities, what I actually should have said was independance from the rules and restrictions of those communities. And its our obsession with labelling that makes people believe that the straight and gay communities are seperate entities that only exist apart from each other, which couldn't be farther from the truth. Gays and straights and everybody inbetween walk the same streets together on the same planet. We could start a whole other thread on what we even mean by the word community.

As for this: "Opposition to labels is fine in a philosophical sense. But in the world of maya, the world outside comic books (I can't believe I just said that), there are social realities which have to be acknowleged before they can be changed," I'm going to have to ask you to expand on what you mean by social realities and what those realities are because I think you're wrong. It's our obsession with grouping and labeling ourselves that create these social "realities." It doesn't have to be that way. Did gays and straights even exist as different social entities before the sex hating Christians came along 2,000 years ago? The Ancient Greeks seemed to be pretty open and relaxed about who they shagged. I'm writing from Tahitti right now and almost nobody cares about it here.

You talk about bisexuals going underground to integrate themselves into one community or another, and i know this does happen with certain people but that just seems sad to me. Why would anybody want to limit who they're friends with just based on who they have sex with? And what would be the point of forming a bisexual community? Do we really need more social segregation? The only reason any of this is a social reality is because so many people want it to be. Its in our nature to segregate ourselves off into groups so that we can fight each other (there must be a thread on the book Lucifer Principle somewhere on the board), but this is something that has to be overcome if there's ever going to be any kind of peace and togetherness in the world.

Anyways, there's a thread that's just been resurected that's essentially saying everything i've just been saying, so i'll bring this back closer to the original topic and Cameron's first post - I think that girl he was talking to was completely right to call herself heterosexual. Gay, straight, and bi are all very general terms that mean very different things to different people. Each has as many possible different meaning as the other, so who am I to say she's incorrect in how she chooses to define herself?
 
 
This Sunday
07:21 / 30.07.05
I'd like to say - and have before, maybe incorrectly - that it's the individual's choice to identify as X, Y, or M, but... that only works if sexual preference isn't engineered at a genetic level. I don't think it is, but a lot of people do. As a genetic factor, it's like the white person who claims to be black without any evidence, physically, geneologically, et cetera. I'll buy that anybody can call themselves a christian or a buddhist, because those are choices, but if sex isn't....
Enough playing devil's advocate, for now.
Thinking on community and sexuality: I know people who engineer their parties (formal dess-up dinner in parts sequenced out inexplicably and more relaxed party-type parties) around sexuality, when deciding who to invite, who to invite as what time, and so forth. I know one guy who seats his guests by sexual preference, often using bisexuals as a buffer for the straight guests because he feels it makes them less nervous.
This all strikes me as unnecessary and somehow not-right, but maybe it's not a widespread thing. Most of my life since fifteen has been centered around LA, and I'm thinking maybe it's just a SoCal thing. Maybe not. Are these sexually-segregated plans common at dinner parties everywhere, then? And, furthermore, are they indicative of greater bias/awareness and judgments based on sexuality and sex/gender-preference?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:55 / 30.07.05
It doesn't have to be that way. Did gays and straights even exist as different social entities before the sex hating Christians came along 2,000 years ago?

Just FYI, yes, although concepts and definitions of sexuality are fluid - Foucault argues that "the homosexual" has only existed as a concept since 1870.
 
 
*
14:31 / 30.07.05
Did gays and straights even exist as different social entities before the sex hating Christians came along 2,000 years ago? The Ancient Greeks seemed to be pretty open and relaxed about who they shagged. I'm writing from Tahitti right now and almost nobody cares about it here.

Not everyone in Tahiti is as privileged as you are, if I don't miss my guess; I would hesitate to say that your experience in Tahiti is equivalent to that of every Tahitian. However, I don't know from Tahiti. I do know you're extremely wrong about the ancient Greeks. I assume you are referring to the system of paederasty, eromenos and erastes, which prevailed in Athens for a couple hundred years and which most people take as a model for what was going on all over Greece from the time of Homer to the rise of the Roman Empire. In this system, boys were expected to allow sexual activity— the 'rubbing of thighs'— with adult men who could give them a hand up the social ladder. This sexual activity did not extend to penetration. A son of a citizen who allowed anyone to penetrate him was considered corrupted. Adult men who were not yet married were expected to chase after boys. Still later, they were expected to marry a young girl and produce heirs for the family. Note that this is explicitly an age- and class-based system, divided into the active and passive partners in sexual intercourse. The passive partner— the boy who too willingly accepted his erastes' affections, the woman, the adult man who still sought the company of other adult men— were generally treated as second-class citizens. Extreme cases— the eromenos who was willingly fucked, the adult man who was willingly fucked— could be deprived of citizenship. So much for not caring; this is a more hierarchical society along terms of who you can fuck and how than we have today in the US.

But to answer your question more directly, no. The sexual preference and behavior has always been there, but the labels are new as of approximately the 19th c. (at least in public discourse; uncritical references to the idea that "some people are just like that" occur fairly regularly before this time.) With Haus I'll suggest that you might read Foucault if you haven't; he seems to agree with you that by participating in the labeling you participate in the oppression. However, he had no opportunity to see how labels are being used today to organize people for activism.

You talk about bisexuals going underground to integrate themselves into one community or another, and i know this does happen with certain people but that just seems sad to me. Why would anybody want to limit who they're friends with just based on who they have sex with? And what would be the point of forming a bisexual community? Do we really need more social segregation?

As I said in the labels thread here, you think I mean something different by community than I actually intend. I am a member of the queer community. This does not mean I don't interact with straight people, have straight friends, live with straight people as flatmates, date straight people, concern myself with the oppression of straight people of color and straight people of economic disadvantage. It means that, beyond this broader society, I also have a more intimate society with whom I can (for instance) talk about things that are unwelcome in straight and mixed company, and with whom I can organize to create change in laws and policies that affect my communities. Thanks to the label I can say to someone whom I otherwise might never meet, "We have a common interest in protecting certain rights. Therefore, please help with this activity designed to protect those rights." This does not remove me from the rest of the world, it makes my living in it more effective.

The only reason any of this is a social reality is because so many people want it to be. Its in our nature to segregate ourselves off [blah blah crabcakes], but this is something that has to be overcome if there's ever going to be any kind of peace and togetherness in the world.

Sure, I'll get right on that. I figure I can have that done by Tuesday, at the latest. More on that in the labels thread here.

One further thing relating to labels and sexuality: The criminalization of homosexual activity happened long before there was a label to describe it (in fact, before Christianity in many societies). So the oppression existed before there was that label.

Now getting back to bisexuality.

Thinking on community and sexuality: I know people who engineer their parties (formal dess-up dinner in parts sequenced out inexplicably and more relaxed party-type parties) around sexuality, when deciding who to invite, who to invite as what time, and so forth. I know one guy who seats his guests by sexual preference, often using bisexuals as a buffer for the straight guests because he feels it makes them less nervous.

I've not yet encountered this but I'm sure I will soon, as I'm moving to the San Francisco Bay Area. I expect it will annoy the crap out of me.

It seems to me that the belief that bisexuals make straight people less nervous is contrary to evidence I've seen. That is, I think I've seen straight people more nervous in the company of people they know to be bisexual than in that of people who are exclusively gay. I think this has something to do with thinking "if a person can have the kind of sex I like to think about and also the kind of sex that makes my skin crawl to think about, what's to stop me from having desire for that kind of sex too?"
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:43 / 31.07.05
I'd like to say - and have before, maybe incorrectly - that it's the individual's choice to identify as X, Y, or M, but... that only works if sexual preference isn't engineered at a genetic level.

But sexual attraction and sexual identity aren't necessarily the same thing - the one may be programmed in, but the other certainly isn't. So, it's possible that Cameron's friend, who started the whole ball rolling, is predestined by her genes to find women sexually attractive, but that hasn't, I thiink, compelled her to decide that she doesn't from romantic relationships with women or to decide not to identify as bisexual.
 
 
*
22:39 / 31.07.05
There's this Nerve article I don't know if people have seen yet.

Some excerpts:

...in other moments I've talked about it seriously, that I feel attraction and love with both men and women. A friend of mine got angry, saying, "I just hate the idea that a gay man will hit his mid-thirties and suddenly decide to date women. I struggled so long to come out that it just pisses me off."
...If people ask me, I tell them I'm gay. It's easier.
The hardest part now is coming out as bi to people with whom I am, or would like to be, intimate. I've talked about bisexuality with men I've dated after we've been going out for a while. They usually just laugh it off as crazy talk. It's harder with women. I met a girl not too long ago; we hit it off and hung out a few times. "At first I thought you were straight," she said, "and then my friends told me you were gay, but it feels like we've been going on dates." I said, "Well, I know this sounds retarded, but I identify as bi, and I kind of think we have been going on dates." There was a pause and she said, "That's cool." But I could tell that it wasn't.
...I've found that rather than increasing my life-partner options (as would seem statistically probable), my bisexuality has done the opposite, limiting the people who are interested in me to an open-minded and progressive few.
 
 
macrophage
21:16 / 05.08.05
Bisexuality seems a wierd one for alot of people to grasp, some people don't get it. Having endured the worst moment of my life at Glastonbury festival when me and my girlfriend were shagging a group of hecklers were outside who knew I was Bisexual but were homophobic decided to try and confidence destroy us well me by shouting loads of homophobic things because I came out to them that I was Bi and have went out with blokes as well as women, some people seem stuck in some quaint Victorian Semblance of an Ideological Prison, my girlfriend stuck up for me but it ruined our relationship. Basically I can't handle people who claim to think like anarchists but seem in fact slaves to a Family Bred Socialisation that may as well join the Nazi Camps in their Imaginations.
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
16:40 / 06.08.05
...decided to try and confidence destroy us well me by shouting loads...

You were having sex in front of people?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:33 / 06.08.05
Presumably in a tent considering that the word outside is clearly written.

I think a lot of relationships conducted by bisexuals fail under perceived social pressure. Whether that pressure actually exists locally (in your social group for instance) or is something created by the person engaging in the relationship as a pressure placed upon themselves is a question that can only be answered in view of specific situations. What I do know is that the length of time that people around you have been aware of your sexuality and their awareness of the identity issues that surround bisexuality are very important factors. A lot of people perceive sexuality as a very polar thing, as has been clear in this thread that's regarded by many bisexuals (and other people of course) as a misconception.
 
 
macrophage
03:26 / 10.08.05
Me and my then girlfriend were having sex in a caravan trying to get with our business. There were people outside who were from the next caravan along. It did not do much to our esteems.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
06:58 / 10.08.05
Macrophage, make your next post relevant to the topic and demonstrative of having read it or it will be deleted as threadrot.
 
 
*
15:54 / 10.08.05
I brought up the issue of sovereign sexuality a couple of fora down (here) but it's probably more relevant to this thread.

Here, again, is the relevant quote: ...being sovereign means that I have absolute power to determine the boundaries of my own sexual self, without question or appeal, at all times. It means I have not only the right, but the obligation, to defend my boundaries -- boundaries are not pre-existing natural features like mountain ranges or oceans, they are lines we draw in the sand... It means that I may choose to form allegiances and alliances with other sovereign entities based on their willingness to enter into a contract of mutual support of one another's sovereignty. It means that I may characterize my sovereignty in whatever manner seems most appropriate, using any and all of the words and names that seem to fit: bisexual, pansexual, queer, kinky, polyamorous, femme, right-handed, female, feminist, whatever. —Hanne Blank

Sovereign sexuality is a concept which seems to me as useful to straight and gay people as it is to bisexuals. Everyone has an interest in establishing that they and they alone have the right to define and defend their sexual boundaries. Is it possible/desirable to use sovereign sexuality as an identity movement, similar to pansexuality, which says nothing about the person's sexual attraction other than that it is self-defined?

Bisexuality seems to imply a sort of indecision between two polar opposites (which are themselves surely fallacious; does "gay" really apply equally well to MSMs, Daddy/boy dynamics, twink-fanciers, bear-loving-bears, drag queens and their chasers, assimilationists, the downlow, and the leather scene? similarly, as a "straight" friend asked me, is it really a "straight" relationship if it's linearly polyamorous and D/s?). Pansexuality implies that a person will do anything that moves/consents. There isn't really a movement for picky omnisexuals. 'People of sovereign sexuality' (soverisexuals?) could cover all people who consider the right to define their own sexual boundaries of great importance. It implies that these boundaries are flexible to varying degrees depending on the person, giving (for instance) heterosexual people permission to occasionally find people of their same gender attractive, and to act on that or not however they choose, without invalidating their identity. It also places great emphasis on consent as the defining line for what is and is not acceptable sexually speaking, an emphasis I am always happy to see.

Discussion?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:39 / 11.08.05
sentimentity, firefly fancier Bisexuality seems to imply a sort of indecision between two polar opposites

Well, to you, obviously. On first reading I see nothing that shouldn't exist if people act like adults about their sexuality and nothing that would persuade those who do have problems as to how to deal with it for the good of their mental health and the health of society at large.
 
 
This Sunday
15:57 / 11.08.05
Any time anybody postulates two 'polar opposites' somebody else simply isn't going to see the dichotomy, the need for the dichotomy, or the use/validity/reasonableness of it. Apples and oranges; I mean... what are you supposed to respond to that? Yes, please? Bananas? Blue rubber ducky number twelve?
Is it any more reasonable or definitive to say 'I like men' or 'I like huge teats' than to say, 'I tend to be attracted to people with skin' or something? Indecision implies not choosing something... not *not* choosing one thing over another based on the single or limited qualifier some outside person places as the central concern whether you think so or not.
But, yeah, omnisexual or parasexual seem to imply an urge to immediately start getting it on with absolutely anybody, everybody, and whoever's standing on the corner of your block.
You only have to decide between having X or Y *right now* not, ever or at all. And usually only then if you're paying and on limited funds. I mean, I may have to decide, sitting in a restaurant, between cheesesteak or chicken pasta... but I don't have to abide that decision every time I eat, and if I have enough cash and a big enough appetite, what's wrong with ordering both? So, basically, if you're paying for your sex, this might be a concern, but otherwise....
 
 
*
16:50 / 11.08.05
Well, to you, obviously.

No, I meant to the contingency of people who believe that bisexuals are fencesitters who can't decide whether they are either gay (at one extreme) or straight (at the other). I don't share that belief, but to most of the people I talk to who are not bisexual or self-defined as queer (and to some who are) this seems to be the immediate assumption. I also don't think this is right, but there you go. And we have researchers such as J. Michael Bailey to support this %ever so accurate% construction of bisexuality, to boot.

I think if you glance back at some of my other posts in this thread, it will be clear that that's not how I experience bisexuality nor how I expect others to. Nonetheless I should have been more clear.
 
 
Quantum
13:35 / 19.08.05
So I was reading about Foucault and the construction of sexuality, and he apparently attributes the creation of 'sex' as an entity to the Victorians.
For example Homosexuals didn't exist prior to that era, people engaged in acts (e.g. sodomy) but weren't defined by them, labelled as homosexual.
By that interpretation, bisexuality was constructed in the same way- there were people who lay with men and women but they weren't 'Bisexual'. When did that identity come about I wonder?

I was discussing this with Goodness Gracious Meme last night trying to work out when Bisexuality (the word) came about but we didn't know. We thought probably the Twenties was a good guess, but does anybody know?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
18:47 / 22.08.05
Well, Anais Nin was fairly active in the twenties, but I'm not actually sure if she -identified- as bisexual. It'd have to be before Kinsey, wouldn't it?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:27 / 22.08.05
Well, it's one of those mildly tricky things where the people who used it in that sense may not have written it down much, on account of the whole social condemnation bit. "Bisexual" in the sense of somebody with sexual characteristics of both genders in 19th Century - "bisexuality" in the sense of being attracted to both genders is used in an English translation of Kraft-Ebbing, I think, which would be fin de siècle. Bisexual as an adjective meaning "attracted too both sexes" occurs before "bisexual" meaning "somebody who is attracted to both fishcakes", which is indeed early 20s. Lord knows what Anais Nin called herself. The term was, however, not popular until the 50s, which I think might have something to do with Kinsey.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:01 / 22.08.05
It's been a few years since I've read Nin's journals, but I suspect she probably didn't label herself as anything specifically, unless it was during her psychoanalysis phases - she tended to be very alchemic / emotional about the whole sex thang and the act was more important than the labels. "Bisexual," I think would have been a bit too scientific for her to favour it.

The waters were - probably - a lot muddier back then, with the question of whom you slept with distorted by public perception versus intimate perception and I suppose that hasn't really changed, but being able to differentiate sexualities and sexual expressions more specifically - with labels being as much tools as constrictions - means that people are (hypothetically) less likely to sleep with an same-sex partner because they want to in secret, and sleep with an opposite-gender partner more openly to save face, and are more likely to be doing it because - shockingly - they like both equally (or differently or, or, or).

This is all thinking outloud, could be fishcakes, I'm not sure. I quite like the idea of being a sex-sovereign, especially where virginity is something given up or taken away, and sovereignty is something claimed or asserted.
 
  

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