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What's Love Got To Do With It? (Defining Bisexuality)

 
  

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CameronStewart
12:20 / 06.07.02
Was having a conversation with a female friend of mine last night, in which it was revealed to me that on occasion she has had sex with other women.

"I didn't know you were bisexual," said I, to which she very violently protested she was not - using as her main point of evidence the belief that she could never fall in love with or decide to marry another woman. She finds both women and men sexually appealing (though her preference is tipped towards men), has had (and will again) sex with both genders, but yet says she is not bisexual, claiming that sex with women is merely an extension of "girly" things like doing each other's hair, and lacking in the element of "love" that in her view legitimizes and defines one's sexual preference.

Is she talking as much rubbish as I think she is?
 
 
Graeme McMillan
12:53 / 06.07.02
Yes.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:45 / 06.07.02
Christ. You're living inside a het porn movie.
 
 
Ganesh
17:35 / 06.07.02
I'm entirely heterosexual. ZoCher and I doing things with each other's bottoms is merely an extension of our having been 'flatmates' for the past seven years. And I'm just an extension of my parents' marriage which, in turn, is just an extension of their having sex, which, in turn, is just an extension of their having done 'boy/girly' things for twenty-odd years.
 
 
gravitybitch
17:39 / 06.07.02
Oh, my. If the magazine Anything That Moves wasn't on indefinite hiatus, I'd ask the panel of experts there to weigh in on this....

But since they're not available, I'll have to weigh in all by (bi?) myself. Yes, it's rubbish. Very fragrant bi-phobic rubbish that's just reeking of het privilege.

In the thread "questions for the Pride parade people" (or whatever it was called), one of the conclusions was that a source of discomfort for a lot of straights was just the open acknowledgement of sexual behavior - "Yes, we have sex, we're open about it, and we define ourselves in part by who we choose as partners." Sexual preference labels are applied based on practice (or who you want to practice with...) and it sounds like she's definitely a practicing bisexual.

There's nothing wrong with expecting different things out of different relationships, and it's not unreasonable to expect more bonding behavior and "girly" stuff from her female partners. (My relationships with women have been more emotionally supportive and intense, but my longer relationships have been with men.) But I don't think that invalidating an entire set of relationships just because they're with women is honest or healthy.

Are her female partners just "fuck buddies" or do they go out for shopping and movies and friend/date type stuff as well? Does she have any male "fuck buddies" or does she go into every relationship with a guy looking for romance and that magic ring and white picket fence?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
19:06 / 06.07.02
Yes she is and I'd like to know if her female partners set as low a value on whatever they did together as she does. And does she only have sex with men when she fancies some penetration and then be ignored for the rest of the evening while he watches telly?
 
 
Ganesh
20:43 / 06.07.02
Cameron, is your female friend Adele from 'Big Brother'...?
 
 
Mystery Gypt
21:07 / 06.07.02
there is an endless parade of heterosexual-identified people in the world who place no value on "love", have heterosexual sex, and don't therefore identify as "asexual." this is the thing about identification -- it comes from outside, it is determined by the complicated web of language and culture, it is not simply determined by what we'd like to call ourselves.

you're going to cut and paste all these responses and deliver them to her in a big "i told you so" box, aren't you?
 
 
Jackie Susann
05:20 / 07.07.02
No, she's not. Or, alternately, yes, but so are the rest of us.

First of all, you can't 'define' any identity with any degree of precision. You can describe them, but any identity is more or less fuzzy around the edges - even more so when it comes to sex.

Your friend has different interests in and relationships to men and women. She's trying to describe them using a pretty anexact language in which, basically, your choices are 'straight', 'gay', or 'bisexual'. I think identifying as a straight woman who sometimes has sex with women is at least as realistic as identifying as a bisexual would be.

Bisexual covers a lot of territory. It ranges from people who have sex exclusively with one sex, but identify as bisexual for reasons to do with fantasy, pretension, opportunity, etc.; to people who have relationships with men and women without distinction; to people who form relationships more or less exclusively with people of a particular sex, but have casual sex with others; people who swing; people who only have sex with one gender, but enjoy SM play with others; people who enjoy threesomes; people who prefer partners who aren't classically gendered as male or female; and many, many more possibilities. But not all those people are going to call themselves bi, and not just because of bi-phobia - partly, for example, because it could be hard to get a date using such a general term.

Now, it's possible that your friend is genuinely bisexual and suffering the horribly repressive terrors of heterosexist society (i mean, aren't we all?), but i don't think she is necessarily being dishonest or talking rubbish.
 
 
grant
17:41 / 08.07.02
I imagine she's as straight as the Latino men who are straight even though they have sex with other men but "giving, not receiving."
A vexed heterosexuality.
I wonder if she thinks of herself the way prison toughs or old fashioned sailors do/did: scratching the itch with whatever is at hand, although (avowedly) preferring the company of the ("correct") opposite gender. Admittedly, this is an explanation which probably doesn't say much about the available men in her hometown.
 
 
ill tonic
23:49 / 09.07.02
I'm with the Crunchy Pirate on this one.

Here's Dan Savage's take on bi-sexuality ... a reply to a letter about a hetro guy who likes to suck the occasional cock but doesn't think that makes him bi-sexual :

"Sexual orientation may not be a choice, but sexual identity is. The more closely a person's professed sexual identity reflects his behavior, and the more closely his behavior reflects his desires, the less fucked-up and conflicted he's likely to be. So if a guy is attracted to men and women equally, and he sleeps with both men and women, and he falls in love with men and women, he should identify as bisexual, since the bisexual label most accurately describes who he is and what his partners can expect from him.

If a guy's sexual and emotional desires are overwhelmingly hetero, on the other hand, but he likes to suck cock once in a great while, then identifying as bisexual is rather misleading. A guy who's exclusively into women emotionally and 95 percent into women sexually probably shouldn't tell anyone he's bi. Better he should round himself up to 100 percent hetero in casual conversations and tell people he's straight--not because it's convenient or safer in the closet, or because Dan Savage doesn't think bisexuals exist. (Believe me, they do, and I'm going to hear from them this week.) No, he should tell people he's straight because "straight" most accurately describes who he is. See how that works? "
 
 
gravitybitch
01:10 / 10.07.02
?? My take on the opener was that the woman in question actively enjoys sex with both men and women and is slightly biased towards men as far as physical desire goes, but is completely biased towards men emotionally (and culturally). She's using this bias (that she "can't" fall in love with another woman) to claim a heterosexual identity in spite of her admission that she's had and enjoyed and will continue to have and enjoy sex with women. I think Dan would classify this gal as a closet case...
 
 
Jackie Susann
05:58 / 10.07.02
i don't know that how Dan would classify her is the most important thing. and i'm distinctly unconvinced that how any of us might classify her based on cameron's summary of one conversation in a pub has anything much to say about, well, anything.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:21 / 10.07.02
'Bisexual' is a bit of a crude term, isn't it? Given that many of us here reckon there are more than two genders? Why only three classifications?

1. 'No one has sex. Especially not women.' (Victorians)
2. 'Men have needs. But only regarding wifely women. Women do not enjoy sating these base desires.' (1st half 20th Century)
3. 'Oooh, sex, yeah. With everyone, you know? Men, women, aliens...' (1965)
4. 'There are normal people and homosexuals. We like normal people.' (Margret Thatcher, 1980, may unpleasant conditions assail her age)

Which leads to the creation of a middle band when anyone isn't one or the other. But most people chose to identify with one or the other, because this middle band (no more homogenous than the other two) is seen as something bridging a gap between fundamentals.

Ain't none such place, surely?
 
 
The Natural Way
08:45 / 10.07.02
Pirate: for that good, clearheaded crunch.
 
 
cusm
19:50 / 10.07.02
I do see a linguistic problem here. Does Xosexual refer to sexual or emotional preference? It seems that it means one to some and the other to others, or both to still others.

Here's a similar example. I know a fellow who in inarguably homosexual. However, he's not against sleeping with women now and then, including the emotional relationship that comes with this. However, what he wants in a serious relationship is only a man. Thus, his identity is as a homosexual, even though sexually he's quite bi.

The titles don't seem to cover this sort of thing well, especially as some understand the word to mean one's choice in a relationship and others as what one gets off on. Its almost pointless to argue it any further unless there's a better way to express these sorts of cross situations.
 
 
gravitybitch
00:58 / 11.07.02
Yeah, the labels suck. But thought processes (mine included) haven't caught up to the labels we've got... I found myself being more forgiving of the "gay" male than of the "straight" female, simply because he was identifying with another oppressed minority group. Not cool, especially as some of the worst bi-phobia comes from gays and lesbians!

I think most people apply labels to other people based on behavior and apply labels to themselves based on philosophy and/or belief systems, probably because they know their own philosophy quite well and can more easily see the behavior than the philosophy when dealing with other folks. Possibly also because people are accustomed to rationalizing their own behavior, explaining away all the ways the things they do don't match up to the things they believe in: "Yes, I want to protect the environment and I think global warming is awful, but I'm still going to buy and throw out more food than I eat because I like stuff fresh and I don't want to run out of anything!" "Yes, I was raised Catholic and am a staunch supporter of the heterosexist norm of one man, one woman, and the white picket fence; but the last time I was in a threesome it was such a turn-on!! Excuse me while I make a few phonecalls and set up my next group date!" (/rant)...

Given that labels are somewhat necessary, and truthful labels are a good thing, what sort of labels would you like to see? Kinsey stickers don't quite cover the butch/femme spectrum or the dominant/submissive/switch possibilities.
 
 
Jackie Susann
02:09 / 11.07.02
am not at all convinced that 'truthful labels are a good thing'. labels are good insofar as they increase your prospects for more agreeable kinds of pleasure. it's contextual.
 
 
grant
02:48 / 11.07.02
I'm not sure truthful labels are even possible.
 
 
gravitybitch
03:46 / 11.07.02
? How so?

Yeah, sure, on the internet, nobody knows I'm a log... but why are truthful labels not possible as opposed to "all labels are equally true"? I'm not sure I follow that.

"labels are good insofar as they increase your prospects for more agreeable kinds of pleasure. it's contextual." I was speaking within the context of being open about who you choose as sexual partners, and I agree with you that wearing the appropriate labels makes a pairing more likely to be mutually satisfying. (If I'm honest about being bi, I'm much less likely to end up with a lesbian who's convinced that her principles will be contaminated beyond redemption if she sleeps with another woman who's enjoyed sex with a man; we'd be at each other's throats in less than a week).

Within this limited context, are truthful labels good?
 
 
Jackie Susann
06:09 / 11.07.02
okay, but whether or not you are a log is easy to decide. whether or not you are, say, a bisexual is not so easy, as this thread has surely made clear. a truthful label of one's sexuality isn't possible because sexuality is not a stable object or quality you either have or don't have, are or aren't. they are slippery areas of probability. context: choosing your label tactically, in response to situations rather than an ideal of honesty.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
07:43 / 11.07.02
Just wanted to say this is one of the most enlightened and accepting discussions I've seen on the topic.
Thank you, everyone!
 
 
Cat Chant
09:05 / 11.07.02
The thing with labelling 'bisexual' everyone who doesn't fit 100% into "straight" or "gay" - that is, everyone who has ever fantasized about, had sex with, and/or found emotional comfort in a relationship with, anyone of a gender not commensurate with their self-identification of 'straight' or 'gay', ie EVERYONE IN THE WORLD (at a rough guess) - is that it ends up containing precisely no information and therefore becomes an unhelpful label. Except possibly in terms of building coalition politics, which is an important exception, of course...

There is something annoying to me, I'll admit, about absorbing non-heteronormative activities/desires into a "straight" - that is, socially privileged - identification. It seems to me to reinforce the idea that 'straight' is a normal, universal and flexible category with room for infinite (sexual/emotional/political/social) variations *within* that category, and hence to suggest that anything which falls outside 'straight' must be abnormal, particular and determined.

Having said which, it's tactically/strategically a good idea to open up definitions of "straight" which don't automatically mean "monogamous, never sleep with anyone not of the opposite gender, want kids & mortgage...", but to pay attention to the diversity within the category.

I know I'm contradicting myself.

I'd be interesting in hearing from people who do identify as 'bisexual' as to what the content of that description is for them. (I don't identify as bi because it seems to me to suggest that sexual attraction is determined by gender, and that there are only two genders).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:13 / 11.07.02
I think I fall somewhere between or around Deva and Crunchy. I don't think my sexual experiences can mark me out as "straight" or "gay", or indeed "male" or "female". I would further suggest that, in a sense, "straight" is not really a descriptor of one's sexuality. It's a descriptor of *what one wants to be*. So, by saying "I am straight", you're not actually saying "I have never been attracted to a person who fits the gender profile I apply to myself, sexually or emotionally", but rather "I wish to behave, and be treated by the world, as if blah blah blah heterocakes". Which is a good and useful thing, as "straight-identifiers" can identify with the social consensus about what qualifies as acceptable or non-acceptable behaviour. Which saves a lot of time.

So, Cameron's friend is in effect reserving her status as straight - she's saving her place on the straight bus so that if things get awkward she can hop on and drive on out of there with a happy "Care about you? But I'm straight! Ta-ta!" At the same time, she can appropriate some of the exoticism of queerness by doing the "I shag women, me" thing also. But she is still, in effect, emotionally pure. She has drawn a line and contrived to put herself on one side and the Other on...um....the other. It's a pretty common thing to do, though normally the line is drawn before naughties rather than before love, or perhaps before second date, or before kissing on the lips, or *what-ever*.

So yes, she is using a terminologically inexact set of descriptors, whioch makes life difficult, and if she has sincerely been led to believe that feelings of love are necessary for the identification of a "sexuality", she is by her own lights correct. She should also not be allowed to cross the road unaccompanied, but that's not really the point.

What is the point is that she is not necessarily talking rubbish per se, as far as I can see, but she is allowing ideas of what creates "valid sex" and "valid sexuality" to construct her in a fashion that "naturally" privileges her position as normative.
 
 
Cat Chant
10:56 / 11.07.02
I think I fall somewhere between or around Deva and Crunchy.

Fnarr.
 
 
Cavatina
11:12 / 11.07.02
"But she is still, in effect, emotionally pure. Haus

Just what does this mean? Sounds like old coddies to me.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:16 / 11.07.02
Yeah, I didn't like that - sounded too accusatory. As though Cam's mate was boasting and then attempting to protect her straight ass.... I don't think you've got enough info to go there, Haus.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:38 / 11.07.02
That's not generally a problem for him.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:05 / 11.07.02
Surely there is some emotional, rather than purely physical, aspect to defining sexuality. What about a gay man, married to a woman who feels disatisfied. While heteronormative pressures have skewed such a person's sexuality, sex can take place in these relationships. Sex, and therefore the sating of the physical need, are possible so that the identification of beng gay is not simply about physical desires.

Im not sure if the emotional aspect is occupied by feelings of love, or if the woman in question desires to be "normal", but I can imagine that her emotional preference for one gender might be enough to justify her rejection of the bisexual label.

BTW. Deva, I think I understand your not wanting to be called "bi", but arent you rejecting a quite convenient, if limited, description of sexuality?
 
 
The Natural Way
13:14 / 11.07.02
TBH, I hardly know any biguys that feel comfortable w/ the label. Hmmm....maybe a couple of people....

I suppose, when you really feel yrself out on the peripheries, the stable categories spawned in the straight vats just seem a little limited.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:31 / 11.07.02
Sure I can't tempt you with that grown-up smoothie, Nick? Just a taste? How about some grown-up lemonade?

It means exactly what it says. Power works through individuals in various ways. One way that power works through individuals is by orientation to become a more effective conduit of power. "Straight" is a highly effective conduit of power, because it has an awful lot of circuitry built up behind it to conduct more effectively. As we have learned from the "A question for the pride parade people", queer sexualities get to express the sort of entitlement that straight sexualities (plural, although the natural impulse of the straightening imperative is to create a set of polar oppositions between "straight" and "gay" or "straight" and "queer", or in this particular case "straight" and "bisexual") get to channel pretty much all the time (quo vide Ganesh's sudden ability to wolf-whistle the motorcycle cops, and thus cross-refer the "Oh, you are naughty, but I like you" thread - I love it when a plan comes together) only on one day a year along a predetermined route.

Now.

"Emotionally pure" means, as I may have implied above, exactly that. Cameron's friend is unsullied by the emotional attachments to other women (dodgy there, but for the sake of economy we move on), or indeed the social and legal attachment of marriage, but fortunately that decision is largely out of her hands anyway, that would mark her out as "bisexual" or, if she lacked the redemptive capacity to attach emotionally to men (dodgy there, but for the sake of economy we move on), "lesbian", and certainly "queerosexual".

So, Prunce, Cameron's mate was not necessarily "boasting" - I have, as you say, no idea of the context. She was, however, promptly and clearly establishing that any attempts to place her in the "bisexual" set, where the instinctive societal expression of power through sexuality becomes complicated and resisted, would be invalid. She lacks the component to be thus identified - think of it as a rheostat, if it helps.

That's not a criticism of her, theories of sexuality extending beyond the close focus on a single conversation in a single bar (the Head Shop, no postcode). It's a comment on how sexuality may be structured, and how individuals fit and are fitted within that structure.

Although I am again interested that "yes, she's being bloody stupid" is not considered judgemental, but when the structures informing the concept of bisexuality are scrutinised it becomes suddenly unfair...not really thought about the implications of that yet.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:33 / 11.07.02
You just have sharper claws, dear.

Given that sexuality is not a matter of choice, and we in the UK live in state where non-heteros aren't lynched, to what extent is choice of sexuality structured in our society?
 
 
grant
15:21 / 11.07.02
Dude, look at any beer commercial and you'll see how sexuality is structured in society.
Off that dominant image-discourse, you get the choice mutations, some of which fit in with the desires in the viewers' heads, and some which don't make it.

-----------

The thing I was getting at (that Crunchy summed up nicely, and that even overlaps with the Foucault on sex thread) is that the "structure" is barely that - it's a shifting, polymorphous blob creeping over a rather unsteady scaffolding, and we often mistake the scaffolding for the blob. The construction-around for the actual thing itself.

The personal example: I'm straight. Ish. Some boys are cuter than others. Can't say what might happen on a desert island. Or even a particular good White Party. And even *something happening* isn't a good indicator of sexual orientation. (Rape being the extreme example, but shading into sex out of obligation, or pity, or out of social fear of exploring other, more desired options.)
So I'm straight and monogamous today... except in certain corners of my imagination. Which is where sex comes from, I suppose, at least in part. I'm partially straight. Mostly. Well, not right now, while I'm typing this, but for the rest of the day. Probably.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:31 / 11.07.02
Given that sexuality is not a matter of choice


Well now. That's a very interesting question. Isn't Cameron's friend doing exactly that, though. She is "choosing" a sexuality, that sexuality being "straight", or certainly "not bisexual".

It may be the case that who you are attracted to is not a matter of choice, but is that the same thing? Which sort of leads us back to the question of whether someone who has slept with both men and women must be considered "bisexual".

Which also leads back to how choice of sexuality is structured in our society...
 
 
cusm
15:55 / 11.07.02
So say then a straight has a homo encounter. Does this make them bi? Does it make them Gay? Can they retain their original label and justify their actions? Or is this call for a crisis of identity?

I think there's some allowable wiggle room in any of the standardized labels. Everyone has the capicity to try new experiences, or those outside their personal norm. There are always exceptions. I think if someone was upfront with something like "I'm straight but like gay sex sometimes" their potential partner would be equipped to deal with the situation without hurt claims of misrepresentation afterwards.

So in this context, allowing for variations and kink (even and especially for those who claim to be "straight"), the labels of hed, homo and bi indicate more the overall likely behavior. Or better, how one is likely to behave publicly. One who identifies as straight is not likely to be seen publicly with a homo lover, even if they regularly find partners of this sort.

The label is the public image you present. It doesn't define who you are likely to sleep with so much as who you are likely to take to dinner. Everyone is kinky to some degree. Not everyone is comfortable with their office mates knowing about it. These labels are a product of society, not sexuality. When not in the eye of society, in a dark corner of a busy nightclub, its a bit of a free-for-all.

So what does bi mean as a social statement? In this context, I think of it as a way out of the two standard labels, a label that says "you can't predict what I'm likely to do," or "I refuse to be categorized." Of course, bi is in itself a category, due to misunderstanding and the usual offense those adhering to standard categories have with a rebellious stance. Perhaps omni-sexual would be better for that sort of thing, avoiding categorization altogether?
 
  

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