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Beyond Anti-Psychiatry

 
  

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Ganesh
23:52 / 26.06.02
Over on Lyra's 'Weirdo revulsion' thread, Abigail Blue (who I hope won't mind my quoting her) argued persuasively against psychiatric diagnosis/labelling:

Once someone's been diagnosed with a mental illness, they internalize that label, and become a Schizophrenic, say, instead of a person suffering from schizophrenia.

Being told you're 'mentally ill' is a brutal process, if you believe the diagnosis. It's sort of like being emotionally eviscerated. That sort of inner turmoil tends to show up externally.

...I always viewed my diagnosis as crap, and my supposed illness as a natural reaction to unnatural circumstances (years of emotional abuse). I think that, sometimes, 'mental illness' is a process of coping with really big and unpleasant things, and that coming out the other end as a whole human being is possible.


On Rage's 'Identiopathic Personality Disorder' thread, in the Laboratory, Iszabelle expressed broadly similar concerns:

I understand what they're getting at (kinda), can point at a couple of folks I know: "Do you mean like that?" but I hate how this appears to be another way of pathologizing/marginalizing subcultures and dissenting viewpoints.

Rage, never one to mince words, was blunter in her criticism:

Personality disorders are bullshit. They're the most ridiculous thing around

(I love you, Rage...)

These are only the most recent expression of Barbelith's seeming-familiar (to me, anyway) tendency toward anti-psychiatry. The Anti-Psychiatry sociopolitical movement was most popular in the late 1960s and early '70s; its best-known proponents were R D Laing and Thomas Szasz. Put simply, it was a rejection of the methodologies and underlying assumptions of 'traditional' psychiatry. Laing, in particular, argued strongly against the 'demoralising' process of psychiatric diagnosis, while Szasz went so far as to decry mental illness as a 'myth'. He made a distinction between 'brain' disorders and 'life problems', implying that doctors should have no role in attempting to address the latter.

Personally, I find the anti-psychiatric worldview extremely seductive, with much to recommend it - not least the fact that it maps fairly well onto the 'stop whining and adapt' school of dealing with life problems. In seeking to empower the 'mentally ill' individual (who, argue the anti-psychiatrists, would typically be treated as a blameless-but-powerless object within the psychiatric system) the anti-psychiatry philosophy implies the existence of responsibility on the part of the individual...

... which, anecdotally, would make a refreshing change from the more common air of entitlement in those who present at psychiatric out-patient clinics. As shrinks go, I'm a relatively reluctant prescriber and like to explore other avenues first - self-help groups, counselling, practical (Citizen's Advice Bureau) help with day-to-day stressors. I'd estimate that around eight out of ten people to whom I don't prescribe medication are unhappy about it, feel (and usually tell me) I've short-changed them. Talking to colleagues in General Practice confirms that the pressure to provide a Universal Panacea in tablet form is stronger than ever. Makeover culture: we all want the quick fix.

And therein lies the problem, as I see it, with anti-psychiatry - or, at least, the modern variant. People get stressed, unhappy but don't want to be diagnosed as psychiatrically ill... yet they approach a doctor for help and, more-often-than-not, want that 'help' in prescription form. We reject the stigma of being labelled 'mentally ill' while demanding to be treated (in terms of pharmacology, psychotherapy or other 'support') as if we are. We want to have our cake and eat it too...

Abigail Blue again:

... other than MDs or Psychologists/Psychiatrists, there aren't a whole lot of resources for people who don't want to be medicated or subjected to analysis. I had a really hard time finding someone who shared my opinion that I wasn't ill, rather that I was dealing with something and didn't quite know how to go about it.

It might surprise some to learn that the majority of doctors share those sentiments. In every study of the factors underlying low morale within the medical profession (and GPs in particular), 'inappropriate demands' is up there in the top three collective gripes. Whatever the reason (rise of 'victim culture', media-fed expectation of 24-hour happiness, fragmentation of family and traditional Church/community-based support networks, etc.), more and more people are insisting that their doctors help them cope with the stresses and unhappinesses of modern living. Faced with such unrelenting demand, doctors either dig their heels in and point out the limitations of medicine (difficult, unrewarding, unpopular) or give in and reach for the prescription pad (easier, but contributes to the overmedicalisation of Life In General). No-win.

We don't like the situation either. We know there are precious-few resources out there. We know it's not 'illness' but you've come to us expecting some sort of help, haven't you? We're doctors - what do you want us to do?

To summarise on a more constructive, less 'Us & Them' note:

1) Whose problem is it? How should we, as a society, deal with that mass of suffering humanity which cannot cope, wants 'help', but is not (or does not want to be viewed as) 'ill'? Who should be responsible for providing such help? Can 'paid strangers' ever fill the role of friends, family, loved ones?

2) Do doctors have a role to play? What, and why?
 
 
SMS
05:20 / 27.06.02
I heard somewhere that quite a few people with certain mental illnesses essentially cure themselves. I don't know if that is true or not.

A couple years ago, I kept describing my own feelings to other people and kept getting the advice that I sounded like a classic case of depression, and that I'd better go see a doctor. So I didn't. I eventually ended up combining fractions of things I'd read, heard, and observed in life to try out different behaviours. I used The Divine Comedy, The Lucifer Principle, The Meme Machine, and various readings on Shamanism. I tried meditation and similar things. I don't think I did anything special, really. It kind of feels as though I had a kind of system to repair the problems.


Regarding your question about family/loved ones, I don't think a paid stranger can replace them if that is what is needed. A stranger can perscribe them, though.
 
 
Ganesh
06:09 / 27.06.02
SMS, when you say

I heard somewhere that quite a few people with mental illnesses essentially cure themselves.

I'm not certain what you mean, and I'm not certain how to react to such a vague assertion. It's certainly true that many 'cast-iron' psychiatric disorders would, if left well alone, eventually remit. It's also true that, in some cases, the sufferer's behaviour can help or hinder the process. It's equally true that the line between 'illness' and 'crappy situation' (or, for that matter, 'bad day') is often blurred, and many people have a tendency to diagnose illness in themselves where a psychiatrist might well say none exists.

Also, the fact that a disorder will eventually sort itself out does not necessarily negate the need for treatment, particularly during periods of acute relapse. Psychiatric input would then focus on containing the phenomenon (stopping a manic individual trying to fly from the tops of buildings, or giving away his property), avoiding regrettable decisions (a depressed person deciding, at their lowest point, to kill themselves) and attempting to hasten the process of recovery.

Are you willing to generalise from your own experience? I'd agree that much of what is presented to doctors (particularly general practitioners) as 'depression' could essentially be dealt with (as if not more effectively) in other ways: falling back on family supports, spending time with friends, altering one's life circumstances or, as you did, developing new interests/philosophies in order to 'reframe' the ennui.

Naturally, this is a double-edged sword: there will always be a significant minority of those presenting as 'depressed' who are so severely unwell that they can only be helped by medical intervention. Studies of attribution show that people have a tendency to view their own problems as largely outwith their control ("Nothing I can do about it, it's my brain chemistry") and the problems of others as being potentially soluble ("It's her own fault; she's just lazy") - and this should always be borne in mind when attempting to diagnose oneself and others...

Finally, I don't understand your last point, SMS. Assuming that's a typo and you intended to say "prescribe", what do you mean?
 
 
SMS
07:06 / 27.06.02
Yes, it was a typo. I just meant that a doctor (stranger) could prescribe friends and family as part of the treatment. That's great if the family is willing to help in the treatment, or if they're at least available. Of course, for someone without friends and family, it's not very helpful.

Am I willing to generalize from my own experience? To some extent. I would do so only enough to say that there are others like me.

To my vague assertion, about which you didn't know how to react, you reacted very well. I have no other comments on the matter at this time.
 
 
Jackie Susann
08:16 / 27.06.02
First off, I think it's a little unfair to lump in anyone who's critical of the current system with 30 year-old anti-psychiatrists. I think any of us could write off psychiatry pretty effectively if we stuck with what psychiatrists said/did in the 60s...

Anyway, I don't think there are practical solutions as long as you're limited to addressing problems in the specific field of 'mental health'. As long as we live in a sick society, people will be sick - yeah yeah I'm on a marxist kick at the moment. People are alienated from decision-making and the products of their labour, is it any wonder we're ambivalent about medical authority and our relationships to it?
 
 
Persephone
14:02 / 27.06.02
I do always have my marxist goggles on at the doctor, and especially the dentist, and also would have on at the psychiatrist if I ever went.

Funnily enough, I am unable to see the economic machinery behind self-help books...

Personally, I am not comfortable with the idea that other people know more about my body, my brain, and my mind --in ascending order of discomfort-- better than I do, even acknowledging that they probably do! But I also hate that I don't understand this stupid computer on my desk. Or how my car works. Or how my house was built & where it's leaking from.

So to me, it's not psychiatry. It's not just psychiatry, that is. It's the friggin' mystery of life, the fact that so many parts of my life have been farmed out to others to take care of & I'm not to worry my little head; but I do worry. I don't know if in this modern world we've gotten overspecialized or if we're just as specialized as before and just don't trust others as much as they were trusted, say, pre-capitalism.

My solution, such as it is, is to try to take some of my life back, which means living a smaller life and learning more about what's in hand. I speak only for myself... I think I am probably not sick, just spoiled.

I don't know! I don't envy you! But on the other hand, I do.
 
 
Abigail Blue
14:44 / 27.06.02
First off, nice abstract, Ganesh. And thanks for starting this thread: It was getting a little off-topic over there.

I tend to be of the 'it takes a village' (thanks, Hilary) mentality about most things, and this issue is no exception. Without the (somewhat unexpected) full-out no-questions-asked support of my father and step-mother, I don't know that I would've been strong enough to stick to my beliefs about treatment. I agree with SMS that folk can, and usually do, cure themselves. As he said though, both he (and I) had systems to deal with what we were going through, and we had knowledge of those systems because of having done a lot of reading, and/or because of our privileged status as intelligent people.

Before everyone jumps all over that poorly-phrased remark, what I mean is that I can't expect my mother, say, a well-educated and intelligent woman, yes, but older and living in a small town and coming from a very North American Christian background, to think to herself when diagnosed 'Oh, my MD says that I'm depressed, so, instead of filling this prescription, I'm going to meditate and balance my chakras.' She, and her generation, are a wee bit more likely, I think, to accept the diagnoses and the treatments offered. And I'm not questioning receptivity to alternative methods of coping and treatment (thanks to Oprah, and her ilk, average folk are much more receptive to that kind of thing these days. That sounded tongue-in-cheek, but wasn't meant to be.)I just think that most folk are scared shitless when diagnosed with something (cancer, depression, what-have-you..) and need help in seeing the diagnosis as a challenge to change the circumstances of their lives in order to deal with it.

The problem is that, under Capitalism and the system of the Nuclear Family , broad bases of support don't exist for a lot of people. I work with a segment of the population who are more socially isolated than most (people with intellectual disabilities), and most of them are very trusting of and dependent on traditional Western medicine, largely because they've never been presented with other options, and because many of them are not in contact with their families. Hence, they have very little support other than paid caregivers. (This goes for a lot of senior citizens, too.) No one's ever told them that meditation might help their ADD, or that their depression might be helped by working to balance their chakras, or that yoga or pilates might be effective in dealing with health problems. They haven't been given those options, and they don't know where to start looking for them.

To answer your question, I think (surprise!) that this is a really broad social issue which extends beyond doctors and their patients. I think that the only way to really fix this schism of Us and Them is to work to build community whenever possible, to strive to care for each other as human beings, and to overthrow Captitalism (just thought I'd slip that last one in, all unnoticed-like... ) That's a tall order, I know, but, in the meantime, I'd settle for hearing some options from my MDs. Instead of "I'm a medical doctor: All I can do is to prescribe you drugs", I'd like to hear "Have you tried meditating? Have you thought about quitting your nasty stressy job? I can give you drugs, or refer you to a Psychologist, but I want you to know that there are other options out there." More heart, kids, that's what I want.
 
 
Abigail Blue
14:49 / 27.06.02
Oh, and, for the record, I have a few friends for whom the existing system has worked just fine. I just want to clarify that I'm knocking the system itself, and not the folk who use it or work within it...
 
 
gravitybitch
14:56 / 27.06.02
Generalizing from my own personal experience: I've been subtly stigmatized by my boss (an MD who should know better!) for how I've chosen to deal with intermittent depression and for how I react to the occasional doses of oral steroids that I need to manage my asthma.

Prednisone gives me nasty mood swings and occasional problems with confusion and memory lapses, and shuffles me automatically into the category of "patient" - it's scary to watch my boss's professional mask solidify while I'm explaining that I'm going home because I'm just not able to do productive research and don't want to waste time, reagents, and precious samples while I'm zonked on meds. That mask will pretty much stay put for the next couple of days, until I'm a fully productive employee again. There doesn't seem to be a category of "employee taking care of herself" ....

And, as for "mental illness" - it seemed to be ok that I would occasionally show up to work after 10 am having obviously spent a while crying my eyes out. But, when I re-evaluated how I was managing (not!) my mood in the context of a family and a personal history of depression and decided to commit to 6 months to a year of antidepressants, it suddenly seemed like I needed to be micromanaged or completely ignored, and my decisions are suddenly suspect and subjected to intense scrutiny and argument. I don't think the quality of my research has changed at all; I'm still capable of running several projects at once. But this former lab manager (different lab, different boss- I haven't been officially demoted over this) is now a bench-bot....
 
 
Abigail Blue
15:01 / 27.06.02
Oh, and Ganesh, I'm not suggesting that the lack of heart is the fault of the doctors. Hell, my own mother treats her doctor as a confidante, and I can understand that a) it's not her job, and b) that being on such personal terms with every patient who uses your overburdened clinic is perhaps asking a lot of an individual. Again, the wider system is the culprit here!

(Ass safely covered, I retreat to my hole and wait for responses...)
 
 
gravitybitch
15:25 / 27.06.02
Whee! I obviously took too long to post the previous.

I'm reasonably comfortable using the HMO health management system I have here in California. I've managed my asthma with and without health insurance, and use the system primarily for the drug benefits and occasional illnesses.

However, when it comes to mental health, the HMO sucks. They're set up only to deal with crises that threaten a member's physical health, and their idea of treatment is to prescribe meds. They freely admit that they don't have the staff to do anything else. (I'm paying for therapy on my own.)

I'm not sure what the solutions are. We definitely need more of a "village" attitude to take care of everybody, and a national health inusrance plan of some sort could help immensely. "We" need to get away from the take a pill/instant fix mentality, and the healthcare system needs to acknowledge that just because they're good at prescribing meds doesn't mean that meds will fix everything. The system (and individual doctors) need to give up some of their "authority" and be willing to suggest things that aren't within their realm of expertise. (I don't remember the HMO psychiatrist asking me about my exercise habits or if I meditated when I went in for help with my crisis. It may have happened, though - my memories are a little foggy.)
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
15:45 / 27.06.02
Prednisone gives me nasty mood swings and occasional problems with confusion and memory lapses,
that is actually quite common, nothing to stygmatize over. Your boss sounds like he has a classic case of assholeitus.

My view of the issue is that people seem to use the psychological zeitgeist as an excuse. "I'm not a bad mother, i have clinical "

I think we are overmedicated and I agree with Bill Maher when he says that america, at least, should be more on edge. Paranoia these days is normal, and likely a bit healthy.

I say, deal with it, suck it up.

I speant the greater part of my life busting open my knuckles on solid objects, then moved into 'self medication', and back to violence after i got bored of drugs.
Guess what? I got over it. I found a more healthy outlet for my feelings and move on. I do sometimes backslide and hit a wall or kick a chair, but i'm not a vegetable popping prozac and xanex all day long.

Drugs are fun, but drugs prescribed for being sad, thats just silly.
 
 
Abigail Blue
15:52 / 27.06.02
I dunno, Elijah. I see your point, and I agree that folk need to take responsibility, but, just 'cause we were able to deal without meds doesn't mean that everyone will be able to.

And, hell, I'm not here to judge folk who feel that they need paxil to get out of bed in the morning. Like I said, some of my best friends have needed a pharmaceutical helping hand. And, not having experienced first-hand the psychological and emotional pain that they were in, I can't say that I wouldn't have needed it too, if I had found myself in their situation.

It's just a matter of encouraging folk to deal in whatever way is best for them, and providing them with all possible supports and options.
 
 
Ganesh
16:32 / 27.06.02
Thanks for your replies, folks. This is a topic dear to my heart, and I'll get to y'all bit by bit...

Dread Crunchy Pirate said:

First off, I think it's a little unfair to lump in anyone who's critical of the current system with 30 year-old anti-psychiatrists.

I don't think I did: I opined that beliefs expressed on Barbelith commonly tended toward those of the Anti-Psychiatry movement - which is true. My intention is and was not to "lump in" anyone with anyone else; I merely find the anti-psychiatrists' approach a useful tool with which to frame recurring concerns about the doctor-patient relationship. If you disagree, feel free to disregard it.

...I don't think there are practical solutions as long as you're limited to addressing problems in the specific field of 'mental health'.

In this thread, I'm not. Although its starting point - my dialogue with Abigail Blue on the 'Weirdo revulsion' thread - was the power balance in mental health care, I'm keen to widen the discussion. Feel free to generalise: how do you think society as a whole should be reconfigured?

As long as we live in a sick society, people will be sick.

What do you mean by this? What kind of 'sick'? Are you referring to human suffering, unhappiness, 'stress', ennui? Why, at this historical juncture, do we (apparently) choose to view suffering in terms of 'health' and 'illness'? What are the alternatives?

People are alienated from decision-making and the products of their labour, is it any wonder we're ambivalent about medical authority and our relationships to it?

You tell me. I'd certainly agree that the modern doctor-patient relationship is ambivalent in the extreme, and creates a great deal of dissonance in both patient and doctor. On the one hand, we feel resentful and disenfranchised, our doctor is perceived to be arrogant, paternalistic, overbearing; on the other hand, we approach him (and I'm intentionally using 'him' here) in a state of passive(-aggressive?) over-expectation which is frequently - if not invariably - disappointed. Result: both parties, more often than not, pissed off.

As I read it, you're saying the doctor-patient relationship is symptomatic of a wider societal malaise. It certainly needs updating. How would you update it? What should you expect from your doctor? What should your doctor expect from you?
 
 
Ganesh
17:07 / 27.06.02
Persephone said:

Personally, I am not comfortable with the idea that other people know more about my body, my brain, and my mind... better than I do...

Do they? I'd say yes and no. Medical training enables one to view physical (and, to some extent, psychological) anatomy through the filter of the prevailing orthodoxy. Okay, it's a powerful (if somewhat defensive) orthodoxy but it's still just one way of conceptualising the world inside and around us. The psychiatrist cannot get inside your head; he cannot know you better than you. His strengths are his knowledge of diagnostic frameworks which have previously proved helpful, his experiential database of similar 'cases' and (if you're lucky) his willingness to be flexible, to develop a relationship which plays to your own strengths and minimises your weaknesses.

If you bring a problem to a doctor he'll view it, first and foremost, in terms of 'health' and 'illness'. I'm not convinced this is always - or even usually - the most appropriate or helpful way to approach the problem. Not all suffering is 'illness' and should not, IMHO, be treated as such.
 
 
Big Talk
17:57 / 27.06.02
Ganesh (hail! hail!)-

first, I'm on a pop pyschology kick right now so I'll understand + even appreciate it if you show me the bigger strands behind what I'm saying . . .

sickness and depression definitely have to be considered, at least partially, as socially constructed concepts. I think its Foucault's bit that 'mental health' as a normative concept in the west appears concurrently with capitalism's demands for a regimented and rationalized workforce. so . . . "anyone who lies around in the park all day is crazy + gets locked up. you don't want to get locked up, do you? so get to work!" and obviously, mystical experiences aren't desirable traits for the average textile worker . . .

but, regardless of these terms' relation to 'objective reality', I'm inclined to be concerned with people who communicate to me unhappiness with and professed inability to change their:

alcoholism
major depression
anxiety
obsessive/compulsive behavior
etc

so the modern/pomo quandry is how to give these people treatment and relief that is not a function of capital and social capital. (not least, b/c doing so risks inflicting worse pain thru self- and social-stigmatization due to the negative associations of therapy, mental hospitalization, anti-depressants, etc.)

(BTW Elijah, keep in mind that all the good drugs, + all the good emotions and experiences as well, have heavy brain chemistry aspects to them. no different than prozac.)

to cut to the chase, I'm really feeling Neuro-Linguistic Programming these days- it seems to slice that gordian knot pretty well. dig:

1) NLP is quite vocal in not being interested in The Truth, but merely what works. it's radically skeptical + empirical- so, no normative view of personality.

2) NLP assumes that no one is sick- that everyone is making the best choices available to them from a limited set of options. an NLP therapist doesn't 'fix' or 'cure', but adds more choices and empowers you to make them. arguably, its free-will pyschology.

3) NLP openly recognizes and uses the hierarchical, topdog-underdog aspects of doctor-patient relationship. they don't build a relationship in order to convince patients to entrust them with painful histories or dark fantasies- they expressly (and sometimes overtly) try to hypnotize + swindle patients into new patterns of behavior in order to 'model' alternatives to the patient's complaint. therapy is meant to be short + to address patients' wishes as directly as possible.

so, tell me what's wrong with this picture Ganesh.

Peace
 
 
Ganesh
18:18 / 27.06.02
Big Talk: nothing; I'm not especially familiar with Neuro-Linguistic Programming but, from your description, it sounds near-identical to good Cognitive Behaviour Therapy. More shortly...
 
 
Abigail Blue
18:57 / 27.06.02
< threadrot > When I worked in a bookstore, creepy men used to come in all the time looking for books on NLP, and would talk to me about how it was going to help them "hypnotize women into sleeping with them". That's been my only experience with it, but I'm glad to hear that it's used for something positive... < /threadrot >
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
19:16 / 27.06.02
im not saying that people shouldnt do prozac because of side effects, hell, if i didnt want side effects i wouldnt do much.
My point was, if you want drugs for fun, more power to ya.
If you NEED drugs for any reason, thats not healthy.
 
 
gozer the destructor
19:24 / 27.06.02
I wonder if I can bring the new mental health bill into this discussion if I may? The new bill going through parliment, of which there is a consultation being run (get in touch if you wanna know more), will be the biggest change in British Mental Health legislation for the last 50 years, no longer will you have to have a 'disorder' that is deemed 'treatable' for you to be 'sectioned' ( that's forced to comply to medical advice against your will for your own of others safety). Previously asomeone who was deemed anti-social but untreatable could refuse treatment on the grounds that is was a waste of time basically, this will change if the new legislation goes through (and for yuor information they reckon there's between 300-600 people in this category in England, so they are changing the law to effect this minority).

As regards the mistrust of Psychiatrist, I don't think that it is limeted there, I think there is just a general mistrust of the medical proffesion at the moment, especially in Britain. Y'see the last post-war generation appreciated the NHS a lot more as something to be grateful for, free health care led to a dramatic rise in the standards of living for the majority of people whose previous life expectancies had been extremely low. People got used to this and demanded more, it couldn't be provided and so the relationship between doctors and patients (or users as we are now being told to refer to them) changed, whereas the doctor was all knowing, we now distrust them.

I have always been intrested in Psychology and there is a history of mental illness in my family and my opinion has always been that support either from friends, lovers, family goes along way. I personally would like to see a more obvious move away from pharmaceutical treatments to disorders like schizophrenia and the users I work with generally feel the same, although it must be realised that the types of schizophrenia range dramatically but also that most grow out of it. Drugs have a place in the treatment of mental disorders but one of my main concerns is the fact that there is so little concern for the rehabilitation of the sufferer to leave the institutions and live a normal life, to misquote someone above, to make them think of themselves as autonomous entities rather than labeled and pigeon holed objects who have no control over their own future.

Another point I would like to raise is the ECT thing, last time I saw Ganesh we had a chat about it and i'm still not decided on the subject as I got an opposit point of view from another friend whose a psychiatric nurse. Discuss. To start off though, and go full circle I suppose, the new legislation being debated at the moment alows for 'emergency' ETC's to be performed without the pre-consideration of the Tribunal set up to deal out these new powers. Concerned?
 
 
Ganesh
21:54 / 27.06.02
Gozer: both the Mental Health Act and ECT really deserve threads of their own. I appreciate that both are relevant but I guess I'm trying to cast the net more widely, think beyond immediate grass-roots mental health issues. I'm interested in whether the views of the anti-psychiatrists (broadly, that classifying certain people/situations in 'illness' terms is not just misguided but harmful) fit with a more modern dissatisfaction with doctors in general. If X, Y and Z were to be declassified, seen as something other than 'illness', how would/should we address them? Whose responsibility would they be?

Both Abigail and Iszabelle touched on this. I agree that alternate systems are useful in overcoming unhappiness and adversity - whether reading, meditation, yoga, pilates, chakra-balancing or even, God forbid, the potential support of a "North American Christian background". Research comparing a whole range of psychotherapies, counselling styles and complementary treatments has tended to show that the strength and quality of relationship (whether with one's analyst, counsellor or ayurvedic masseur) is what's paramount. I'm not sure I'd agree that reading and/or intelligence automatically correlate with 'self-help' skills, though: esteem-boosting interventions as simple as taking on voluntary work or spending time with supportive friends can be just as effective.

Okay, so pending the overthrow of Capitalism, Abigail Blue suggests:

... in the meantime I'd settle for hearing some options from my MDs. Instead of "I'm a medical doctor. All I can do is prescribe you drugs" I'd like to hear "Have you tried meditating? Have you thought about quitting your nasty stressy job? I can give you drugs or refer you to a Psychologist, but I want you to know that there are other options out there."

Iszabelle (sort of) echoes this, with:

The system (and individual doctors) need to give up some of their "authority" and be willing to suggest things that aren't within their realm of expertise.

Mmmm. Reasonable, common-sense stuff - and fairly close to my own approach - but doctors assuming a more advisory/educational role in areas that "aren't within their realm of experience" is potentially problematic. Not only does it lay the individual practitioner open to the worst excesses of our increasingly litiginous society (and paychiatrists are already expected to read minds and predict future dangerousness with 100% accuracy) but it would necessitate a broader, shallower style of medical training. Perhaps, given the more common trend toward overspecialisation, that wouldn't be a bad thing. I'm not sure.

As far as surrendering 'authority' goes, I'd gladly adopt a more equal footing with my patients if the new doctor-patient compact made my "nasty stressy job" more pleasant too. It'd be nice, for example, if there wasn't the constant pressure to 'cure', to improve (or, at least, take responsibility for) every shitty job, awful childhood, hellish relationship or crappy living situation which comes my way - preferably within forty-five minutes. It'd be nice if the media saw fit to portray my work realistically, rather than parading a succession of saintly fictional martyrs (besides whom I cannot help but disappoint) or 'blundering' Government-spun sociopaths (for whom I feel the need to apologise). It really would be nice to have the space to be more human...

What do you think? In reshaping the doctor-patient compact, what are the rights of the doctor? What are the responsibilities of the patient?
 
 
gravitybitch
05:16 / 28.06.02
I wish I could say that doctors had a right to reasonable and intelligent patients. Unfortunately, doctors get people who are sick, hurting, unhappy, and wanting a change they don't think they can create on their own.

And in cases of flu, food poisoning, broken bones, etc, I think patients are justified in expecting the doctor to do something. For things like stress-related high blood pressure, diet-related heart disease, etc, the patient has some responsibility for the illness and can and should have an active role in getting healthier; I think the doctor should have cooperative patients willing to change unhealthy habits when they request treatment. (But then, I'm an allergic asthmatic who keeps cats.... I can't yell too loudly about other folks' unhealthy habits!)

I think patients need to be responsible for their own health to a larger degree than what I see as common practice. At work, I see veterans with the little cart for the oxygen bottle in one hand, and the cigarette in the other hand... I know a woman who had her stomach stapled and is still unhealthily overweight because she still gorges on junk food. I'm more than a little queasy about the idea of liver transplants for actively drinking alchoholics.

I'd like to see more doctors be willing to embrace empowering their patients. I mentioned accupuncture to an MD after my last asthma attack requiring hospitalization 7 or so years ago, and the response was just short of him rolling his eyes. Things are better now (or I have better doctors) but there are still lots of MDs who don't want to give up that bit of power/control, don't want to tell the patient, "There's an introductory class on meditation down at the corner independent bookstore next Tuesday; you might want to take a look and see if it helps your blood pressure."

Personally, I go in with the knowledge that the MD's primary weapon is probably going to be the prescription pad (especially in my HMO!); and I have questions ready, as well as the usual list of meds I'm taking and what I've been doing lately that might be good or bad for why I'm there. And if it looks like I won't be a compliant patient, I'll be honest about that.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
15:54 / 28.06.02
I've had three experiences with therapy/psychiatry and I've learned from all of them.

I've had different experiences each time: the first time, I explained what was going on with me and why I'd decided to visit therapy to the doctor, after which he wrote me out a prescription for Prozac. I didn't really want prozac, and I didn't think that was the answer; I didn't return for a second visit, and essentially worked through what was troubling me on my own. But that experience put me off psychiatry for some time.

Next time I visited the therapist was because I was feeling extremely insecure and felt that my self-esteem had really plummeted. I did attend quite a few therapy sessions this time around, and my therapist kept trying to connect something bad that had happened to me in childhood to my current low self-esteem. I kept telling her I didn't think that was the problem - I'd never felt very lacking in self confidence so what was the problem now? Later, I realized she'd missed the fact that my abusive relationship was the cause of my low self-esteem. When I told her this, she disagreed. And again, that was the end of therapy.

I don't know if I really blame this doctor for missing the point; I think she just wasn't looking for this and probably hadn't studied the effects of abuse on people as much as another doctor would have. But it still irks me that she told me I was wrong about the cause of my pain (wouldn't I know best?).

Last experience was group therapy; immediately post-abusive relationship. I'd decided I needed help healing, and although my friends and family were wonderfully supportive, they simply couldn't understand what I was going through. So I joined a support group for abuse survivors. This was by far my best experience with therapy; it was hugely beneficial, and I attended until I felt although not fully healed from trauma, that I had gotten what I'd needed.

Looking back, I think that was the most positive experience probably because I had made the decision that I was responsible for healing myself; therapy could be a tool but not a panacea for the issues I was dealing with. I was looking for support rather than a magic potion.

I think that's kind of key; of course you don't have to agree with what your doctor tells you; part of healing yourself is listening to yourself. Psychiatry and therapy provide a framework that can be helpful to you, but you the individual are not absolved from work just because you have a framework in which to put your issues.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
19:34 / 29.06.02
Gah. just lost what was already a quick and sketchy post.

Briefly... I'd say that our society is sick by symptom, in that it seems for many to be disempowering and to produce fear. (and better people than me round here to do the marxist analysis of why)

This conditions the doctor/patient relationship on both sides. The doctor is trapped within a system that is inflexible, due often to a demand for easily obvservable results/the need to be able to tick boxes... even if ze wants to, fear of the response, both from this system and from clients/patients who want them to provide this tangible/easily measurable solution, prevents doctors from exercising authority beyond a sharply proscribed field.

Patients operating out of these conditions are of course resentful at any exercise of power that they don't have. Even if this power is being exercised in their service, it is likely to seem like 'power over' rather than 'power with' and be resented, even as it is demanded.

(that's v.quick and I'll try and be a bit more precise when I have time.)

To chuck something into the solution mix that seems on my really brief acquaintance arises out of a desire to build these conditions out of the process, I just want to mention the Expert Patients Programme . (what's your slant on this, 'nesh? be really interested).

Briefly the EPP is a patient-led approach to chronic disease management, developed in the States over the last twenty years
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
19:39 / 29.06.02
gah... to continue... a quick quote from the intro to The Expert Patient: a New approach to chronic disease management for the 21st century (Dept. of health: check the link for free copies/further info)

"Research and practical experience in North America and Britain are showing that today's parients with chronic disease need not be mere recipients of care. They can become key decision-makers in teh treatment process. By ensuring that knowledge of their condition is developed to a point where they are empowered to take some responsibility for its management and work in partnership with their healthy and social care providers, patients can be given greater control over their lives"

Have lots I want to say on this, but woolly headed and in a hurry.
 
 
Gibreel
15:51 / 30.06.02
Ganesh: "What do you think? In reshaping the doctor-patient compact, what are the rights of the doctor? What are the responsibilities of the patient?"

Well, obviously they have to be negotiated. But that negotiation requires trust, honesty and maturity on both sides. Which I think is often missing. I have had some very positive encounters with the medical profession - but do most patients have the emotional vocabulary to articulate their needs/wants/problems properly. Come to that, do most doctors? Do people need to learn how to be sick properly?

If they don't have it, then how do you encourage people to develop it?*How* is the compact reshaped? Any suggestions?
 
 
Ganesh
16:09 / 30.06.02
Right here, on this particular thread, entirely theoretically. We're talking about how things should be. By 'compact', I mean the implicit expectations, rights and responsibilities on both sides of the doctor-patient relationship. What is it fair and realistic for each party to expect of the other?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
01:21 / 01.07.02
Just to add to my line above about disempowerment, doctors are also increasingly disempowered as the system within which they work becomes more and more determined by political policy rather than evidence-based investigation/evolution, as 'nesh says elsewhere.

and the other thing i wanted to highlight about the EPP is that the aim is not only to benefit the patient, but that by providing such alternative spaces, pressure on existing services would ideally be eased. Thus having 'hard' effects in that doctors and other healthcare professionals would see fewer patients, but those see those in need more quickly and be able to apend more time with them, and 'soft' effects (thinking in terms of hard and soft data here) in that a more empowered patient would be an easier patient to work with, eventually, as if the doctor (for eg) was part of teh empowerment process, this would breed trust, and make it more likely the patient would recognise a doctor's intervention as 'power with', rather than 'power over'

Doctors and patients alike can expect to be treated with courtesy, and with teh respect due to their positions on the medical issue in question; the doctor's from long training and experience of similar situations, the patient's from their unique position as the sufferer, and from their far greater knowledge of where the problem in question intersected with the rest of their life.

how's that for a starter?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:20 / 03.07.02
There are a lot of binary oppositions here. "Doctor" and "patient", "pro-psychiatry" and "anti-psychiatry". It seems that on one level the Expert Patient programme may be a way to attribe the division between doctor and patient, where the patient becomes better informed, better able to make judgements about their own welfare, and better able to continue a discourse of equality with their doctor ("you spent 10 years training. I have spent 35 years with this problem. Both our inputs are informed", sort of thing).

Is it possible also to attribe the distinction between psychiatry and anti-psychiatry. The two tasks are probably intertwined - a doctor with a relationship of greater equality with a patient may be more able to act as counsellor and the two could cooperate on assigning other support mechanisms most effectively. Is there also something in the idea of acclimating to symptoms rather than attempting to suppress or eliminate them. I am thinking here of the schizophrenic who taught himself to have a reasonably amicable relationship with his most frequent voices, apocryphal as that tale may be. Is it also possible that an approach based on a series of steps, including public awareness, "social skills" training, adaptive therapy and other fun stuff could be effective in "harmonising" personality disorders...

Or is that just psychiatry simple?
 
 
Ganesh
12:52 / 03.07.02
Briefly:

Plums, I agree that the basis of the doctor-patient compact should be mutual respect (the patient is an expert in his symptoms; the doctor is an expert in interpreting symptoms generally) but I was thinking a little more specifically of the implicit (sometimes explicit) assumptions we make when we enter into the doctor-patient relationship.

Historically (since the beginning of the NHS, anyway), the relationships has been very much a child-adult one: the patient expects the doctor to 'make things better'; the doctor expects the patient to passively 'take his medicine'. More recently, an increasing demand for doctors' services (probably resulting from increased expectation/entitlement via television and other media) has put us under pressure to provide tangible, measurable 'results' - while an increasingly litiginous ('victim') culture discourages personal responsibility on both sides. From this side of the fence, doctors appear more pressured to provide solutions but patients - while keen to be as 'informed' as humanly possible - are less inclined to passively follow advice.

It seems to me that, for any truly equal compact to work, there'd need to be a fairly massive shift in public and governmental thinking on health issues. If doctors are to discuss treatment options on an equal, adult footing, we'd need some acknowledgment that we may not hold all the answers, that not everything can (or should) be 'cured' through medicine, that resources are finite and rationing a necessity. One can reasonably expect one's doctor to do his best within these limits. One should also take responsibility for not abusing the available resources...

Haus: acclimatising to symptoms rather than attempting to eradicate them altogether is not a particularly new idea, but it can be difficult (for both doctor and patient) to accept in practice.
 
 
Ganesh
13:26 / 03.07.02
Didn't realise, on first reading, that your latter paragraph referred to personality-disordered individuals, Haus. Basically yes, what programmes do exist to 'modify' or 'socialise' severely personality-disordered people do tend to rely on the approaches you describe. That sort of regime is notoriously difficult to enforce in an open community setting, though, for more-or-less the same reason it's proved difficult for Barbelith to operate a unified approach to Mr C***. 'Therapeutic communities' - (usually) closed 'hothouse' environments in which ground rules can be more easily enforced - do exist, but they're thin on the ground. Also, no matter their effectiveness, Mr or Mrs Dyssocial PD will eventually have to return to 'normal' society...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
18:49 / 03.07.02
Gah. short of time and money, but agree utterly with your point, nesh, about the culture of the doctor-patient relationship... the nhs is based on a paternalistic ideal, on the state caring for its subjects.... and does I'd say, have a child/parent dynamic as its basis rather than child/adult, which is a lot more tricky to maitain. Hence the expectation of beneficient authority/certainty/'solutions to all problems' while the simlultaneous resentment of this positioning.

And was thinking as I was answering the 'what can we expect' question, about the fact that this *would* require a staggering change in attitudes on both sides... and indeed a recognition that there are more sides than two here, that both 'players' are also responding to all sorts of pressures from outside of their roles as doctors and patients. The kind of co-operative, realistic, honest process we're talking about is not one that either is liekly to have much experience of in the 'outside world' either.

Gotta go, but do you think there's a tension between the desire for such a relationship and a neccessity for the doctor to be the authority at times? are there situations where we need to be told what to do? And doctors are not the only healthcare professionals in this equation, the different relationships are determined by the different jobs and they ways theyt condition this relationship? ie is looking at GP/patient, Specialist/patient, nurse/patient, therapist/client work perhaps useful?
 
 
Gibreel
03:15 / 05.07.02
(1) Whilst Laing et al are quite well known, I just thought I'd throw in this character:
http://www.balint.co.uk/
and ask what people think of his work. Is it useful? Does it focus too much on the dr's viewpoint? Do drs see it as having relevance to their working lives?
 
 
Ganesh
15:20 / 16.08.02
Always meant to return to this thread. For various reasons, I've been thinking about the dynamics of my own doctor-patient relationships (the ones with me as doctor, that is).

My current job involves acting as psychiatrist to a large-ish caseload of patients who have been referred on by other community teams because they're considered 'difficult' in some way, either because they won't/can't engage, over-engage in a dependent manner, are frightening, violent or generally non-compliant with treatment. Almost all of them have longstanding diagnoses of personality disorder as well as psychiatric illness, and the majority are too chaotic to sustain an unsupported tenancy. I work with a team of nurses and social workers who visit at least weekly, often daily. My consultant is incredibly committed, and seems to relish the challenge of working with this particular patient-group.

But not me. I've gradually come to the conclusion that, while it's occasionally rewarding, this isn't the sort of psychiatry I want to be doing in the long-term. The patients are rude, aggressive, occasionally physically hostile... and my consultant often ends up having to resort to a paternalistic 'hard line' because they don't respond to reason, compromise or cajoling. I find it all quite stressful - and what I think I'm missing is positive feedback, the feeling that I can discuss things rationally with my patients and agree mutually on a course of action rather than having to overrule them 'in their best interests'. In some ways, it's a personal weakness: I like agreement, I like to be liked. I don't like being the Bad Cop but I can do it when necessary, just not all the time - and the flipside of overruling someone's consent is that the doctor-patient relationship reverts wholly to the parent-child model, with the doctor possessing all the power and all the responsibility.

So... once my time here's over, I won't be sorry to move on.

The other thing that can destroy (the illusion of?) an equal-footing doctor-patient compact is detaining the patient under the Mental Health Act. I had to do this a few weeks back, the subject being a patient with whom I shared a particularly good, confiding relationship and who really trusted me. Unfortunately, he became both unwell and suicidal (he's fractured his spine and pelvis jumping from an upper-floor window in the fairly recent past, in response to 'voices', and he's broken his legs walking out in front of traffic with the same motivation), talked to me at length about his certainty that we would end his life "soon" then promptly disappeared for a couple of days, having stopped his medication, packed his bags and withdrawn the contents of his bank account.

Anyway, this guy returned briefly - unshaven, haunted-looking, more troubled by voices - and I ended up having to detain him under Section 3. It was pretty horrible: he was very angry with me, and felt totally betrayed. He couldn't see why I'd done it, and told me he's never trust me again. And I felt like shit for doing it - but assured myself I'd rather he was alive and hating me than my friend and dead.

Sectioning someone like that can often completely annihilate a good doctor-patient relationship. Any sense of equality is lost as the dynamic flips into authoritarian-victim, parent-child - and often trust is never completely regained. In this circumstance, that didn't happen: I left it a week and went to see him again, and he acknowledged that he'd been "all over the place", and I'd been right to keep him in hospital - and he could see why I'd done what I'd done. Other similar Sections have not ended as well...

So... given the occasional need (IMHO) to overrule a patient's opinion of 'what's best' for them, treatment-wise, can any doctor-patient compact ever be truly power-balanced?
 
 
grant
15:45 / 16.08.02
I don't think so, ever, no. At best, it's an expert/novice or helper/needer relationship.
One of Tim Leary's first things, before he got into psychedelics, was in using game theory to try to subvert this power structure, even temporarily. I don't know if he was the first. And I don't know if he was ever successful or not.
 
  

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