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Christ, Christians, and Christianity

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
Jack Fear
14:59 / 16.07.02
Solipsism is great. Everyone should try it.
 
 
Seth
17:17 / 16.07.02
Grant: one of the modules on my theology course centred around the Kingdom of God, so I'll do some digging and see what I can turn up regarding that particular claim of Jesus. Won't be for a while yet though, as I'm pretty busy.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
19:50 / 17.07.02
Homeward bound to bash my philosophy books to remember what the bloody hell I was werbling about.

Try Spinoza's Ethics. I'm currently reading it, and I think it'll at least help you a bit.
 
 
the Fool
23:00 / 17.07.02
Solipsism is great. Everyone should try it.

Everyone does, don't they?

A question. Is god everything? Is everything god? Is god in the machine or outside of it. Is god an alien or a native?

If everything is god, then there is no external 'god', we are all part of it. Everything is, every rock, every tree, every grain of sand, every drop of water, everything. This sort of implies we humans are part of god's mental process. We are neurons in the brain of god. All religion would seek to achieve in this paradigm is to inform us of this fact. All religions become equal, in that they attempt to describe something, and are not anything of themselves. A sign that points. Just looking at the sign doesn't show you what its pointing at.

If god is external to the machine, then god is not everything. We are an infinitely complex lab experiment for the unknowable. Or maybe not. If god is truly external it means it is not in the machine. It is alien. It is not part of the functioning of this reality and comes from elsewhere. All religion would seek to achieve in this paradigm is to inform us of this fact. All religions become equal, in that they attempt to describe something, and are not anything of themselves. A sign that points. Just looking at the sign doesn't show you what its pointing at.

For god to create the universe, god must be in the machine (for creation is emanation of energy, is it not?) and therefore be in everything. An external god is not god.

Thus, there is no evil. Evil is a human construct. A minature dellusion in the mind of god. Suffering is not evil. Suffering could be equated to change. Not all change is good, but not all is bad. Suffering teaches. I am cold, I suffer - I learn to make warmth (clothes, fire, shelter), I am not cold, I nolonger suffer. If there was no suffering there would be no change. God would stagnate.

And so I believe we worship god by living, learning and growing.

Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed were all just signposts. We never left Eden.
 
 
higuita
14:27 / 18.07.02
To a greater extent I agree, but not on the point that all religions become equal (I use religions to mean organised or orthodox, where deviation from the standard line turns into heresy).

For god to create the universe, god must be in the machine (for creation is emanation of energy, is it not?) and therefore be in everything. An external god is not god.

An external god is not god in the sense that it is used in the first sentence, but to many people, it is god is the sense that they understand & believe. I agree with the point that Buddha, Jesus and Mohammed can be taken as signposts, (and believe it myself) but is this the interpretation that the churches that have built around them would accept?

A great many of the arguments used are the natural and rational results of the application of reason to the subject of god, but do all religions ask for that thought? Many ask simply for faith and the signpost has, in a way, become the destination.

One of the ways that one particular theologian described the christian church, for example, was 'getting people to think in right way'. They didn't ask that people understood why they were asked to trust that they were doing the right thing, that they were doing the right thing was good enough.

•And apologies for not doing anything on the objective doo-dad I mentioned above. I've been drunk for the past two days, but I promise I shall have a look about tonight. I shall start with dear old Benny S. Enjoying the thread though.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:37 / 18.07.02
When discussing God, I find that logic is a dead-end street.

Who says God can't be both inside and outside the machine—and be the machine, as well?

God laughs at your distinctions.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:50 / 18.07.02
Part of the problem being that its pretty hard to say what god is. the Fool's attitude to religion is all embracing, but its not accepted by all. I wish it were. But I've definitely met many a christian who would strongly reject it as being too close to a form of spiritual atheism.

Even the enlightened Jesuits I've known would agree with the sentiment, but not the road that took you there. To them, I suspect, god is more external than it is for you.
 
 
Loomis
14:56 / 18.07.02
Spinoza's Ethics - yes oh yes! The gist of Fool's post is on that track iirc? It's been about 10 years since I read it, but it still informs a lot of my thinking on the subject. Need to read it again soon. However, he considered himself a Christian did he not? Changed his name to make it Christianized? Can someone remind my tired brain how he held one faith higher than another while maintaining his pantheistic view that the world and God are one substance?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:38 / 18.07.02
When discussing God, I find that logic is a dead-end street.

Who says God can't be both inside and outside the machine—and be the machine, as well?

God laughs at your distinctions.


Question: does logic dictate that if God were capable of the irrational (like making square circles, or drawing a triangle on a 2-d surface that had more than a single right angle), then all rational debate regarding Him is useless?

However, he considered himself a Christian did he not? Changed his name to make it Christianized? Can someone remind my tired brain how he held one faith higher than another while maintaining his pantheistic view that the world and God are one substance?

I can't remember anything for that last part, but I do know he had a bit of a time trying to find a country that wouldn't kick him out for his writings, and that eventually a christian community let him stay with them.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:49 / 18.07.02
Question: does logic dictate that if God were capable of the irrational (like making square circles, or drawing a triangle on a 2-d surface that had more than a single right angle), then all rational debate regarding Him is useless?

If God is "capable"? An all-powerful God is, by definition, capable of anything.

And who defines "irrational" but God Himself?

If God is the maker of the Universe—if He writes the code of our operating system, as it were—then surely these questions are academic.

In other words: a square circle is irrational because God says so. Should He choose to say differently, then it's entirely rational.

Maybe.

Because my argument is based on logic, too. And is therefore useless.
 
 
the Fool
22:39 / 18.07.02
If God is "capable"? An all-powerful God is, by definition, capable of anything.

then God is everything, no? God is in everything.

And who defines "irrational" but God Himself?

humans define irrational. The irrational is but a subset of God.

If God is the maker of the Universe—if He writes the code of our operating system, as it were—then surely these questions are academic.

Why is It He? If the questions are academic, why do they keep getting asked? My idea on this, God wants us to ask these questions.

In other words: a square circle is irrational because God says so. Should He choose to say differently, then it's entirely rational.

A square circle is irrational because humans say so. Why is it irrational to an entity that encompasses all permutations and possibilities. For it, there is no irrational. How can there be? It is everything (this would also include nothing as a subset of the equation).
 
 
Yagg
05:13 / 19.07.02
"A square circle is irrational because humans say so. Why is it irrational to an entity that encompasses all permutations and possibilities. For it, there is no irrational. How can there be? It is everything (this would also include nothing as a subset of the equation)."

EXACTLY.
 
 
higuita
10:13 / 19.07.02
...and back to Wittgenstein.

But are these things that sit well with a relatively orthodox christian theology though? That's what I'm trying to get at. All of this works in relation to the enlightened individual, thinking about/experiencing God. The ideas can certainly be shaped around religions, but are these things that could be acceptable to a religion in terms of say, the edifice of the catholic church?
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:32 / 19.07.02
A pedantic point about square circles is that the concept may not just be irrational, but also meaningless. I mean, can god freiufbevb his erveirvbrfb? Is it a restriction not to be able to?
 
 
Jack Fear
13:46 / 19.07.02
Meaningless to your tiny ape-brain, maybe. In the same way that a sphere is meaningless to a denizen of Flatland.

See how hard it is talking about an Infinite Intelligence?
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:53 / 19.07.02
Granted, I am a pretty limited being. But I'm not sure that a sphere is meaningless to a flatlander. At least they might understand it in some abstract platonic sense. Still, the division between depth and meaningless one is tricky.
 
 
Seth
09:58 / 20.07.02
Originally Posted by grant:

Christ, on the other hand, was all "Only through me/my words shall ye achieve the Kingdom," (or whatever it was he said exactly). Which is a thought that really troubles me.

I've spent a little while looking, but still haven't been able to provide a scripture that exactly matches that. I haven't been exhaustive, but my search has been through materials that have focused exclusively on the theme of the Kingdom of God throughout the Bible. Chances are if Jesus had actually said this it would have been considered one of the key references.

The Kingdom of God is one of the most central themes throughout Bible, and is of particular importance in Jesus' teachings (it doesn't take much looking to find a reference in the Gospels: just look at the ampount of parables that are illustrative of the Kingdom). The Hebrew word used is malekut (based on the verb malak, meaning "to be king" or "to reign." It refers to a power, not a geographical area. A realm or sphere of influence). The Greek word is baileia (The position or power of the king. The office of king, kingly rule). The term usually means three things:

1 - God's reign.

2 - The realm into which Christians enter to experience the blessings of his reign.

3 - The future realm, the fulness of God's reign.

Like many Christian terms, there is a vital element of process built into the concept of the Kingdom. It is present now, and has been present from Creation, but it is not yet fully formed, and its complete aspect is yet to come. In this respect, it could be seen as the wider societal dimension of the individual Christian process. For the individual, becoming a Christian consists of the dual commitment of accepting Jesus as both "Saviour" and "Lord." The commitment, however, is both immediate and based in process, salvation and coming under lordship increasing throughout the remainder of the term of one's life. The term "Kingdom of God" covers a group of individuals committed to this process (although this isn't the extent of its meaning. One could do a fascinating study on the use of the term throughout the Bible. One thing I'd like to do for this thread over the coming couple of weeks is explore the theme of the Kingdom of God as it relates to "As above, so below").

Although the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are intrinsically linked as theological concepts, there is a distinction in that the Kingdom of Heaven has no implication of process. I don't intend to get into a lengthy description of the Christian take on the afterlife (although I probably will rise to the challenge if requested). What I do intend to point out is that there are a lot of people who term themselves as Christians who do not fulfil the two-step process described above, and therefore cannot be described as part of the Kingdom of God. Who those individuals are is not my place to say, but the dividing line is quite explicit - people who self define as Christian but the cap doesn't fit. On the reverse side of this, there is a theological precendent for people who wouldn't self define as Christian or as part of the Kingdom of God who may well be elligible under God's Judgement for the Kingdom of Heaven - you don't have to use the same linguistic terms as "salvation" and "lordship" to be under the same kind of processes. See for example the follower of Tash in C S Lewis' The Last Battle, who is welcomed by Aslan/Christ into Narnia's Heaven equivalent despite his self-definition as a worshipper of Narnia's Satan equivalent (in Aslan/Christ's eyes, they were worshipping him all along).

The two-step Christian process could be loosely defined as (using terms which do not make them exclusive to Christianity):

Salvation:
Recognising the mistakes of the past, atoning where necessary, and looking to use these to improve oneself in the future. A process of change and self growth in which we burn away imperfections and make peace with ourselves.

Lordship: More difficult to define in terms that are applicable to those who do not believe in Christ. In this case I'd refer back to the Biblical theme of inverted servanthood in the Bible (loosely touched on in this thread). Jesus came to serve Mankind (and Mr Socko) - he describes the joint most important commandments as "loving God and Man (your neighbour as you love yourself)." It follows that these two commandments are fundamentally linked, and that it is impossible to do the one without doing the other, and that serving/helping/loving Man could be an act of worship in the eyes of God regardless of the person's belief regarding Him.

So, to conclude, I'll give you Christian Theology's stock answer: God will judge all of us as individuals, and based on our heart and motives. Some who self define as Christians or as part of the Kingdom of God will not be elligible for either Heaven or Paradise (see Matthew 7:21), some who don't self-define as Christians or as part of the Kingdom of God may well be elligible. It is, however, not our place to judge. As for Heaven, Paradise, Purgatory, Hell, the New Earth... opinions vary as to what they are. This post is already too long, but I'll get to all that if you like.

There were a couple of scriptures that partially matched the troublesome stuff you mentioned, grant. The first that I found is this:

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

However, this may be qualified by the Trinity's deferring nature; one of the Holy Spirit's primary roles is to teach us about Jesus; who teaches us about the Father; who defers honour to the Spirit. The Persons of the Trinity live in a state of constant honour and love for each other, fictionsuits working in partnership to display the nature of God. The following scripture is illustrative of this:

Matthew 11:25

At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes: yea, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight. All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him.

Interesting that scripture states that it is impossible to state that Jesus is Lord apart from through prior action of the Holy Spirit. Implications!

There's also this section of John, which is pretty mysterious and upon which I'll meditate on later. Don't want to post before consideration...

John 3:1

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."

In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "
"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
 
 
Seth
13:29 / 20.07.02
The Fool: one quick thing. If the assumption is that God is capable of anything, why do you then assume that He is in everything, and that this then means He is everything? And why does God have to choose between internal and external? I've never known any other entity being forced to make that choice

Sorry. That turned into several quick things.

Mr Fear: To paraphrase Yancey when asked to account for his love of Chesterton, I take it by your contributions that you find the mysteries of God more satisfying that the answers of Man. Are you always so unashamedly mystic?

I do too, BTW
 
 
Jack Fear
15:34 / 20.07.02
Are you always so unashamedly mystic?

Well, duh. Hven't you been paying attention at all for the last three years?
 
 
Seth
16:15 / 20.07.02
Make that year, singular. And while I've seen you post a lot about Christianity, I've not noticed you revel in the mystical nearly so much as you have in this thread... you've always seemed more about apologetics up to now.
 
 
SMS
01:50 / 21.07.02
I started a discussion 29 May 2001 called "Infinitely Intelligent Being." I saved most of it on my computer, but it appears not to be available on the web anymore. The central idea discussed was that an infinitely intelligent being would have to look like the universe itself (a map of perfect detail is indistinguishible from the city).

We could argue that an all powerful being must be all knowing (ignorance limits power), and that therefore, he must be everything.
 
 
Seth
12:47 / 21.07.02
I'm still not clear on the link between being omnipotent and omniscient and actually being everything. Of course, you'd have to have the option, but surely being everything without having a choice limits omnipotence?
 
 
SMS
03:43 / 22.07.02
Imagine a perfect computerized map of a city. It has every detail of the city from street names to locations of individual people to the thoughts and feelings of all these people. The map contains every bit of information that is in the city. It may be that the information in the computer is arranged differently, but this doesn't mamatter, because the relation between a kid and his basketball is the same in both the city and the map.

Now suppose I decide to walk into the city, and I say something like, "There is a copy of me now in my computer back home, but I am not that copy." If I were to say this, I would be speaking nonsense. It is impossible for anyone within the city to test whether xe is "really" in the city or "really" in the computer. For one thing, if xe were to come to the conclusion that xe was not in the computer, the computer counterpart would come to exactly the same conclusion by exactly the same means. For those of us outside the city, able to observe both the computer and the city itself, we conclude that one of the computerized person is wrong, while the real one is right. We are able to do this only because we see have a distinctly different relationship with one than the other. If I wish to walk to the 7-Eleven in the city, while I'm watching the computer map, I have to walk a great distance, but if I am by the city border, I am much closer. If, on the other hand, the city is the whole of the universe, there probablly isn't any distance relationship between the computer and the universe. We have no reason to believe that there would be any similar relationship, and, therefore, we don't have any reference by which to distinguish between the two. From the human perspective, the universe and the map are equivalent. From the Divine Perspective, the number of concepts of the universe might be more than two (map and universe). So we go with the human perspective and call it one.

I don't mean to speak for the Fool, though. Xe may be talking about something else. And I'm sorry to spend so much time off-topic.
 
 
grant
16:01 / 22.07.02
expressionless:
John 14:6 - that's the one.

Echoed (or foreshadowed) in John 3:16-18 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
and John 3:36 - "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

it freaks me out.
I get the bit about the Trinity deferring to each other, it just seems odd that there's only one way up and it's through this singular, historical person.
Unless we can decide "Son" doesn't mean exactly what we think it means. (As a category of being imbued with Spirit-made-Fleshness).

in John 14 - what does it mean to "come to the Father"?
 
 
Seth
18:28 / 22.07.02
One of the things that interests me in John 3 is the use of the three terms that Jesus is using for himself (or is He?). Son of Man, Son and Son of God. Notice that Jesus stops using the term Son of Man before He apparently refers to the exclusivity of the Son and the Son of God in freeing oneself from condemnation.

Found some interesting stuff on the use of term (and it's primary earlier use in referring to Ezekiel) here. Here's an excerpt, which seems like it might be the start of a lead towards a better understanding of the text:

The employment of the expression in the Gospels is very remarkable. It is used to designate Jesus Christ no fewer than eighty-one times -- thirty times in St. Matthew, fourteen times in St. Mark, twenty-five times in St. Luke, and twelve times in St. John. Contrary to what obtains in the Septuagint, it appears everywhere with the article, as ho huios tou anthropou. Greek scholars are agreed that the correct translation of this is "the son of man", not "the son of the man". The possible ambiguity may be one of the reasons why it is seldom or never found in the early Greek Fathers as a title for Christ. But the most remarkable thing connected with "the Son of Man" is that it is found only in the mouth of Christ. It is never employed by the disciples or Evangelists, nor by the early Christian writers. It is found once only in Acts, where St. Stephen exclaims: "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God" (7:55). The whole incident proves that it was a well-known expression of Christ. Though the saying was so frequently employed by Christ, the disciples preferred some more honorific title and we do not find it at all in St. Paul nor in the other Epistles. St. Paul perhaps uses something like an equivalent when he calls Christ the second or last Adam. The writers of the Epistles, moreover, probably wished to avoid the Greek ambiguity just alluded to.

The expression is Christ's, in spite of the futile attempts of some German Rationalists and others to show that He could not have used it. It was not invented by the writers of the Gospels to whom it did not appear to be a favourite title, as they never use it of Christ themselves. lt was not derived by them from what is asserted was a false interpretation of Daniel, because it appears in the early portions of the public ministry where there is no reference to Daniel. The objection that Christ could not have used it in Aramaic because the only similar expression was bar-nasha, which then meant only "man" -- bar having by that time lost its meaning of "son" -- is not of much weight. Only little is known of the Aramaic spoken in Palestine in the time of Christ and as Drummond points out special meaning could be given to the word by the emphasis with which it was pronounced, even if bar-nasha had lost its primary meaning in Palestine, which is not at all proved. As the same writer shows, there were other expressions in Aramaic which Christ could have employed for the purpose, and Sanday suggests that He may have occasionally spoken in Greek.

The early Fathers were of the opinion that the expression was used out of humility and to show Christ's human nature, and this is very probable considering the early rise of Docetism. This is also the opinion of Cornelius a Lapide. Others, such as Knabenbauer, think that He adopted a title which would not give umbrage to His enemies, and which, as time went on, was capable of being applied so as to cover His Messianic claims -- to include everything that had been foretold of the representative man, the second Adam, the suffering servant of Jehovah, the Messianic king.


I'm typing as I think and research here. No answers yet. Of course, it's very possible that the unpalatable meaning apparent on first reading is the only correct one, and I don't intend to dilute the text just because I'd like it to be inclusive of everyone. But I'll keep looking.

As far as the meaning of John 14: 6, it seems to be clearer in the context of the verses that follow. Jesus appears to be stating that He is illustrative of the nature of God, that knowing God's human face the same as knowing Him.
 
 
Seth
10:37 / 06.08.02
OK, this is where I nail my colours to the wall. My conception of Christ, not fully completed, but my evolving understanding:

Christ is a symbol of the self (amongst other things), as identified in some Gnostic sects (and in alchemy, for that matter, where he is identified with the lapis). Moreover, He is the symbol of the process towards a fully integrated, whole self (it's important to grasp that He symbolises both the process and the end result, the journey and the destination, the coming of the Kingdom and the Kingdom here and now). This is the divinity within Christ, that He is the refining, transformative process of becoming the reflected image of God, at the same time as being the culmination of that process and fully reflecting that image.

This belief is not so much a researched, Biblical interpretation as one which has sprung from instinct (although it is an instict shared with many other people, so nothing particularly new), particularly from a dream I had on Monday morning:

I am in a large church, and I hear whispered, "it is best to always avoid the wrath of Jesus." The church seems ancient, maybe close to Jesus' time. Then Jesus himself walks in, a strange figure: He keeps repeating, "Who will escape My Wrath?" while looking at everyone in turn, constantly in motion, addressing everyone with eye contact. Everyone avoids His gaze. Finally He reaches me in my position by the alter at the far end of the isle. He asks me to look into His eyes, repeating the phrase He has uttered since His arrival. I stare deep into His eyes; the right eye is a deep crystal blue, and I am struck in the dream by the resemblance to my own eyes; the left is devoid of white, iris and pupil, but instead forms a cosmic cross of many colours, filled with an unimaginable amount of sacred symbols, more than it is possible to count, from all cultures. I look deep into His eyes, and I cannot tell whether He is laughing... His shoulders shake and His mouth is open, but there is no sound. He is very beautiful.

For the bearing that this has on your concerns, grant: if Jesus is the symbol of the united, whole self, it follows that the passage “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him” means that the process of salvation is one of personal growth influencing global growth, that as we realise our potential as a species we will by necessity have to face the darkened areas of our own nature and work towards restitution. The Kingdom of God on Earth. By logical extention, anyone who does not commit to the transforming and evolving of themself referred to in the scripture “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.” The wrath of being outside of positive change, of continually making the same mistakes, of being tortured by a misunderstanding of one’s own nature. The scripture makes symbolic rather than literal sense, the exclusivity of Jesus as the means to salvation attributable to the thing signified (the transformation process) rather than the sign (the Godman, Christ).

As I am now firmly in the heretic camp, I’d like to place a denominational flag in my heresy and thus continue the great Christian tradition of the pissing contest (or is the natural conclusion of a Church in the continual procress of transformation?). This is more from a sense of fun than wanting to start a new sect of the faith. I’ve drawn on influences from Charismatic Christiaity, Gnosticism, Alchemy, Magick and Pop Psychology. Anyone who can come up with a snappy one word name for it wins my their name tattooed on my penis.

More on this as the ideas develop...
 
 
Seth
10:43 / 06.08.02
SMS: Your theory seems (to me) appears as though it's saying that there is nothing outside of creation, and that a divine intelligence would not consist of anything outside of reality. But if I were to write a story, I'd have unlimited power and knowledge of events inside that story, as well as being a pre-existing being in my own right, without, and therefore not resembling something over which I have infinite knowledge and power, as I am large enough to fully contain those worlds and many others. Or am I missing your point?
 
 
SMS
03:57 / 07.08.02
The most important thing that I was saying has to do with the perspectives of the people in the story. You, as the creator of the story, are completely indistinguishible from the story itself. This is only true for the characters in the story. Nothing about you has any implication except what you put there, intentionally or unintentionally. Even a fictionsuit doesn't change that.

So we might say that, from God's perspective, He and the universe are completely different things, but, from ours, they are equivalent.
 
 
the Fool
05:26 / 07.08.02
So we might say that, from God's perspective, He and the universe are completely different things, but, from ours, they are equivalent.

But if I were to write a story, I'd have unlimited power and knowledge of events inside that story, as well as being a pre-existing being in my own right, without, and therefore not resembling something over which I have infinite knowledge and power, as I am large enough to fully contain those worlds and many others.


But by creating, imagining these worlds into being, you actually create complexity within yourself. They are not separate from you in any real way. They can only become separate if there is an 'other' to experience them. If I write a book, it only has existence beyond me if someone else reads it. If there is only one god, how can there be an 'other'.

Conversely if can be God separate from reality, what else is separate from reality? Why aren't these things God? Why didn't God make them, and be extension who did? Are there other Gods? If God is not infinite it is finite, which means there is something beyond it. One could say the god of god, which leads us back to God being everything. Division is illusion of reality, nothing more. Brahman, Atman, Jiva.
 
 
Seth
05:29 / 07.08.02
Gotcha. The knowable part of God being that which is observable, all all else is pure faith on the part of the observer. To be honest, even looking at the observable universe is a faith experience anyway.
 
 
—| x |—
16:55 / 07.08.02
Wow. This thread is fantastic. Cheers to Johnny O for such a sweet start. Sorry to jump in late, but better to jump in and sink than to not jump in at all? Before I begin let me note that when you see an ‘I’ I am using it as standing in for interpretation in the logical sense—it is an I which provides the meaning and/or truth value of strings of symbols, but also, a little less rigorously, the meaning of, well, whatever. And yes, {sadly, happily} it will likely be in an m3 style. I am, btw, an optimistic pantheistic agnostic monist with nihilist solipsistic leanings , in case you’d care to know. And my Mom tells me I threw my blue suede shoes at the minister one Sunday morning when I was still quite young, at least, young enough that I don’t clearly remember this incident.

What can I/eye/I say that is unsaid or not said or already said? Certainly, I/eye/I have sometimes/never/always focused my sights on the idea of the location of the Kingdom. Where is it that X would have us place it? Abigail reminds us, “It’s still considered blasphemous, to a lot of Christians, to suggest that Jesus’ purpose was to remind us all that the kingdom of God is within us, ie. That we all are God right now.” Ah, but the rub and the rue is {within, without}, at least/most as I/eye/I can/’ t see.

“The Kingdom of God is here on Earth,” said the Son of Wo/Man, at least/most that’s what I/eye/I heard. That’s what “they” told me, anyway. But why not? Why not believe it’s not to deceive, but to heal or steal the heart to give to {self, other}. {Heaven, Hell} are strange concepts indeed, but only with the planted seed that these are not here but somehow over there—on the “other side.” Other side of what?!? I/eye/I am fond of the song that flows from the heart, the head that heals/heels on the feet that we must wash. As Jack insists it is more how we treat the {self, other} that shows the road to the Kingdom as {within, without}. We are here, and here is all there is, at least/most as I/eye/I can/’t see. The Hell or the Heaven is what we can make of this life here on earth, here in birth, here in death. The Key, you see, is/n’t in you or me, but in {you, me}. Brother and Sister {all, none}.

If God/dess is everything, then un/surely (I am squirrely) s/he’s nothing too. And where can s/he non/exist but {internal, external} to the world (Anglo-Saxon: “man’s time” )? One gives rise to the possibility of the other: if we see the universe as “in” something, then there surely is something “out” there. It is a dualistic trap of {transcendent, immanent}, but un/surely (I am squirelly) it is/n’t {either, neither}. Keirkegaard reasoned that the divine was at the limits of reason, where the coolness of logic folds into the warmth of emotion: a leap of faith that may require the reason to expire/retire in rapture? Capital C christ almighty, God {laughs, cries} at our distinctions!

“Only through me,” may mean only through you, or only through me, but likely only through Christ in the heart, a fire in the hearth. Or it could merely be something added, appended to better serve conversion and excursion. And how could we separate the Christ from the (hu)man? The life of Jesus is the living example of the Christ in concept. As with other bits and pieces I/eye/I do nay see how we could have one without (within) the other.

A twin Christ of {good, evil}, a snake in the garden, the garden itself. We’ve never left Eden because Eden never existed: we’ve merely exited through a door of our own ignorance—a construction yay a barrier, a wall built with hands of selfish desire for fire, but not light to see. It is no matter, it is every matter that we need only to knock and X sayeth the door shall open. But you gotta’ have the courage to knock, you have to want the Kingdom to unfold around you: a {beautiful, ugly} sight indeed!

{0, 1, B}
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:46 / 08.08.02
Instead of saying "anti-christ", I like saying "reverse-jesus". 'cause he's jesus, but going the opposite direction. You know, instead of feeding the five-thousand, he just eats the kid's lunch and dissapears (witnesses say "I know he wasn't even hungry, he just wanted to screw us,"), and at the wedding at Canaan, he turns all their wine into water and laughs at 'em. And instead of the miraculous catch of fish, he makes an entire catch of fish dissapear into the sea. "He's just an asshole," peter says.

I just wanted to throw that in for fun. In all seriousness, while I have little to add at this point, I'm having a hell of a time reading everyone else's posts.
 
 
Tom Coates
15:30 / 09.08.02
Aside: I'm getting very tempted to see if we could move this conversation into the Magick - I know it seems like a dumb idea, because of the very very specific and slightly closed-off atmosphere of that forum, but maybe it would be a move in the right direction towards reconnecting it with the rest of the board?
 
 
Jack Fear
18:43 / 09.08.02
Spoken like the atheist you are, Tom.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
20:21 / 09.08.02
Go for it, if you think it's best. I'd feel just as comfortable there as here.
 
  

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