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A question for the pride parade people

 
  

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Ganesh
10:53 / 11.06.02
Traz: I'd love to maintain my reasoned approach and calmly point out exactly where your 'gays would be more likely to achieve equality if they acted nicer' argument falls woefully, woefully short. But right now, I'm having a Pride Moment.

Fuck off, het.

[insert ONLY JOKING!!! OR AM I??? smiley du jour right here.]
 
 
Traz
11:25 / 11.06.02
Haus: Oh, yeah. Oops.

Ganesh: Your suave, silver-tongued rationale has won me over...I'll admit I have a tendency to be nasty that is eminently hypocritical. And you did it without threatening to burn down my house or stick your penis in my ear! Bam! Cooler heads prevail and rational discourse triumphs again!
 
 
Traz
12:24 / 11.06.02
Seriously, though: I apologize. I was being far too pedantic for such a volatile topic.
 
 
that
12:33 / 11.06.02
Arrrgh. Unctuous rather than pedantic, methinks. Now I shall go, for many people have covered the topic well, and Ganesh just said all that I would have said. Strangely, I find I have nothing polite to contribute.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
13:37 / 11.06.02
Thus spake Kegboy: and dont get me started on the ninja
Good God, man, there's a Ninja Pride? I thought their entire ethos was stealth and cunning and lightning-quick reflexes. And monochrome clothing, concealing their whole persons. Have they no shame?

The very antithesis of Gay Pride and surely easier to live with since Ninja Pride will pass by in a blur, silently and barely perceptibly performing ancient martial arts at top speed on the back of their floats. And they will be looking for a fight, so pity the poor non-Ninja bystander, casually remarking that they don't see the point... Ninja burger in no time.

I bet they'll abandon the parade after a few years and just cut to the drink and dance tents in a public space with lots of advertisers and merchandisers pursuing the Ninja Pound fearlessly. & the older Ninjas will *sigh* and remember when there were only a few dozen rebellious souls parading themselves through more hostile streets in the 70's, pathetically grateful for the odd supportive and vocal bystander.

My attachment to Pride is probably more about what it was once than what it is today, but it's still one hell of a party, whatever new guise it morphs into. I am really surprised you perceive it as some sort of threat or offense. Maybe it still has a political point after all...
 
 
grant
18:27 / 11.06.02
We finally had a local Pride parade about a month ago here in Palm Beach County. It closed a bridge down, making it impossible to get to my parents' house. Those damnable inverts, stopping the traffic!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:34 / 13.06.02
Kegboy, Traz - look at it this way: the vast majority of Western culture and society is one big Straight Pride parade...
 
 
Margin Walker
10:00 / 14.06.02
I figured this as as good a place as any, as it really didn't need it's own thread...

BRITISH marines returning from an operation deep in the Afghan mountains spoke last night of an alarming new threat - being propositioned by swarms of gay local farmers.

Quote: "It was hell," said Corporal Paul Richard, 20. "Every village we went into we got a group of men wearing make-up coming up, stroking our hair and cheeks and making kissing noises."

At one stage, troops were invited into a house and asked to dance. Citing the need to keep momentum in their search and destroy mission, the marines made their excuses and left. "They put some music on and ask us to dance. I told them where to go," said Cpl Richard. "Some of the guys turned tail and fled. It was hideous."
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:43 / 14.06.02
Why was it "as good a place as any"? Because it highlights the same underlying homophobia as could be said to inhabit Kegboy's "confusion"?

Because it demonstrates that some straights, even if they are quite happy to wade through the guts of their enemies, are simply unable to deal with anything remotely outside their own extremely naff little sexual purlews?

Because the same inability to cope with the "exotic" is manifested in the absurd and prejudicial picture painted by the Scotsman and by the description of Pride Parades as "something out of Mad Max 2"
 
 
Margin Walker
11:00 / 14.06.02
Fine, make a new thread for it if you want to. It's just a news blurb. It's not so earth-shattering that it needed it's own thread. But if you want to, go ahead. You've got the URL now go to it, haus of hemorroids. Or is that too plebian for you?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:12 / 14.06.02
*ahem*

This is one of my fifteen permitted posts of the day. I am spending it providing subtitles for a Fucking Moron ™. Right now, Margin Walker, you are that Fucking Moron ™. You are wearing the Fucking Moron ™ hat. Comfortable fit?

I. Was. Asking. What. The. Relevance. Of. The. Article. Was. To. A. Discussion. Of. Pride. Parades.

Furthermore, I gave you three perfectly logical options, or the chance to make one up yourself. The fact that you haven't managed to do so merely makes me suspect that you put it in here because you thought "Hey, this is the thread about queers! Let's drop this in here and have a good giggle at those effeminate Afghanistanian wierdos!".

Which, ironically, demonstrates precisely the idea that perhaps giving queers one day into which they have to crowbar all their "queerness" and then snarking about how *wierd* it is is not a terribly good way for the Straight Pride march that is society to behave. There isn't a single hopper into which you can dump all the Queer Stuff ™, to keep the rest of the world nice and normal. Well, all right, maybe the second series of Popular, but apart from that.

Jeee-zus. Between this and your much-celebrated observation that it's always the Black homeless people who are loudest and rudest, I'm really beginning to suspect that you don't "get" Morrissey because you're a character in one of his songs.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
11:22 / 14.06.02
man, some of you folks would really freak out if you went into a bar on pride night.

i posted similar questions, but not about parades, which i generally ignore (im more of a march person myself) but about the in the club activities.

See, in The Pulse, the local "gay" bar on an average thurs night is goth night, friday and saturday are whoop it up dance dance dance gay nights. i havem at 1 time or another, been there on all of these nights, and they were all fairly standard club scenes.

On pride night, it was way over the top. I dont have a problem with over the top, but i dont like seeing anyone grop eeach other on a packed and sweaty dance floor, even if it is the hetero male fantasy girl on girl (which never got me going, but it could be all fruedian being my mother is gay...). But man, if leather clad, clit lolli handing out women freak you out, DONT GO INSIDE, cause you might ruin my awesome buzz i get off $1 jello shots.

no on a side note i do think it would be way uncool to hand out anything shaped like genitals to children, but i doubt they were doing that. Dykes aint stoopid.
 
 
grant
14:54 / 14.06.02
There's a T-shirt slogan there.
 
 
Logos
12:07 / 15.06.02
And remember, if you see a homophobe at a pride parade, that just means they need a hug.

Maybe more than one.
 
 
Ganesh
13:57 / 15.06.02
While I remain slightly dismayed at the recent, somewhat moronic turn this thread has taken, I'm still keen to help Kegboy "understand" Pride.

So. Kegboy: you've used a couple of sporting analogies. Let's take your original one, baseball. Try to imagine the following:

You love baseball; you have done for as long as you can remember - or, at least, as long as you were aware of its existence... Baseball, y'see, was only recently decriminalised and some older people still view it as a mental illness of sorts. Your family never talked about it - or, if they did, they did so sneeringly - and 'baseball fan' was a popular term of playground abuse. There were even periodic whisperings that so-and-so killed himself because he was into baseball and couldn't admit it to his loved ones...

In any case, things are different these days, aren't they? A penchant for baseball is much more accepted - in the larger towns, anyway, and as long as you're careful to avoid anything offensive or confrontational - wearing your cap in public, say, or 'promoting' baseball to children. Some cities have specialist bars or clubs where you can wear baseball gear and even watch (expensive, extremely poor-quality) baseball videos. Going there is a risk, certainly - they're not infrequently raided by the police (and you wouldn't want your employer to know you visit THOSE places) - but it was a revelation to discover there were other people, LOTS of people, equally into baseball. You just have to be careful not to be too 'obvious' in public; you wouldn't want to invite a beating, eh?

There are still areas where baseball fans face discrimination: you can't get married, and there are problems buying property or getting a pension. On the whole, though, things are much better than they were. There's even a day - one day out of the year - when you and your fellow baseball fans can emerge blinking into the daylight to march through the streets being open, honest and up-front about your love of baseball. Okay, you still can't actually PLAY baseball in public yet, but there's something liberating about putting on the gear and enjoying the company of your fellow afficionados. Just be sure you're polite and don't go deliberately causing offence to the non-baseball-loving majority...


Doesn't really work, does it? Even stretching your own analogy to the (ludicrous) limit, Kegboy, I'm finding it impossible to convey where us "pride parade people" are coming from and why we value the opportunity to act - for one day a year - in ways you evidently find baffling. If you're still unable to see the point, and baseball remains the nearest common reference point you can muster, I don't think I can spell it out any more clearly. I'm afraid you may never "get it".
 
 
The Monkey
16:15 / 15.06.02
Of course, one could also consider the way that a Pride March flies in the face of that ground-in deep shame and fear of open expression of sex and the sexual act (except by way of very tired innuendo and childish titillation), the naked body and genitalia...I mean, most heterosexuals are afraid, ashamed, intimidated by their own naughty bits. So how dare homosexuals not drag out the sackcloth and ashes in a sign of solidarity for their fellow hell-bound sinners?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:23 / 15.06.02
Point, my simian friend. I've occasionally wondered how much antipathy towards gays is generated by the fact that they admit to having actual sex. With a het couple, everyone can pretend that you're just playing house.
 
 
The Monkey
18:40 / 15.06.02
Oh, I'm guessing there's plenty of old-fashioned non-sexual fear of the different. But I really think part of the intensity of homophobia is that fear of people who *aren't* afraid of appendages and orifices and their interactions, and admit to it too boot. I mean, think of all the indoctrination about sex and the sexual organs being nasty and dirty and shameful. Even sex talk and TV, as they sell sexuality and sexiness, engage in a process of keeping it "naughty."
So what could generate more in someone ashamed of their physicality than someone whose identity (in a fingernail-caricature type of way) is based on their strategic use (or misuse, from from a Jerry "Fuckhead" Falwell standpoint) of the naughty bits?

And have I mentioned recently how much people suck?
 
 
Ganesh
11:00 / 16.06.02
You may well be right. Other than a generalised fear of overt references to sexuality, I can't think of many reasons why someone wearing chaps might be considered to be doing so "in the hope of pissing people off". Classic projection: I feel intimidated therefore that individual is being deliberately intimidating...
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
11:48 / 16.06.02
Bingo.

I'd suggest that there's also a bit of "Hey! If I'm OK with the idea... does that make me one of them?" stigma, too. No, it doesn't, any more than watching Deep Blue Sea will turn you into an icthyologist.

Kegboy: I'd suggest that this

Zocher: See the first section of my post? It said: "Seeing as how I know some people will immeadiatly go on the offensive/counter attack mode..STOP IT! "

was a bad way to start the thread and reinforce your views. It's the equivalent of "I'm not racist, but..." and thinking that that enables one to then spout off round after round of offensive jokes and then have to carry no responsiblity for it. Chances are, if that was attached to a rant about, say, America, or X-Men readers, or [insert topic that you feel passionate about here - I don't know you] then you'd feel justified in tearing a new arsehole into the poster. Something, I note, that's not really been exhibited here as harshly as it could've been.

Other than that, I have no useful Pride statement to give. I think it's important, and I think people should get used to it and the ideas behind it. The goal is acceptance (in the legal/social frameworks already explained better than I could), but if you really want to take it at its most blinkered way, it's a small period of time out of your year that's different to the rest of the taken-for-granted-due-to-background year. If you can't handle that brief incursion - fuck knows it's small compared to what's owed - then I shudder to think how the concept of change or confrontation is dealt with.

(Apologies for any rotting, folks.)
 
 
Tom Coates
11:48 / 16.06.02
Surely the whole thing is very simple? Gay teenagers can feel incredibly isolated from the world - like there is no one alive like them because no one talks about it, because gay people are encouraged to believe that if they talk about their sexuality they are pushing it in people's faces, and that they should secretly be quiet and ashamed. Pride is about visibility - about not being ashamed - as is as much (if not more) important to make individuals feel less isolated, less weird and unnatural, more part of a community than it is to get straight society on-side.

As far as I'm concerned, silence equals teen suicide - and if Pride offers a space in which people feel safe to declare themselves publically gay, then all power to it and to all those who march in it. As to the straight people who don't like it, well fuck 'em - hopefully by the power of having lots of fun in public and showing ourselves to be visible, fun-loving people rather than secret deviants at least as many people will think of gay people in a more positive way as would think of them in a less positive one. And in the meantime, at least for a moment gay people aren't entirely invisible.
 
 
The Natural Way
10:26 / 17.06.02
I really wish the Kegmonger would respond to this thread. People are frustrated and pouring out their feelings....discussing their alienation.....and I feel that should at least be acknowledged.

I know last week was a shit one for old keggers, but c'mon mate....
 
 
Ganesh
14:17 / 30.06.02
Worth bumping this one to the top, I reckon, as London's Pride/Mardi Gras takes place next Saturday, and we could have some sort of unofficial Penis Watch...
 
 
Persephone
01:25 / 01.07.02
Am having a lie-down after walking four hours in close to 100-degree heat.

Lord it was fun.

The chariots rocked.

Pictures soon, maybe.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
02:34 / 01.07.02
I understand the frustration being poured out in this thread (since I said early on that the parades make me confused) and I KNOW that being gay can makepeople feel alienated, depressed and other horrible things. And I think it is a GOOD thing for gay people to be out and open with their feelinngs. Hell, I have said for years that anyone who finds anyone else to love should be celebrated, since it's rare, and people who don't end up blowing other people up.

I still don't much get the parade, but then I don't get ANY parades or displays like them. When I see the obligitory World Champion parades for sports teams I want to say, Yeah, your fucking team won, can I please just watch you on TV at the stadium going nuts?

If the parades are theraputic for people, then go ahead and have them. Maybe it's because I grew up so isolated from people that I don't understand the alienation in a crowd. But here's another question that pops into my head:

How long until it is so accepted that a separate but equal parade is no longer needed?
 
 
Persephone
12:07 / 01.07.02
You don't think that's today, do you?

The second-to-last block of our parade is reserved for anti-gay demonstrators. For some reason, they have bigger signs than anyone. My favorite was the one that said FAGGOTS GO TO HELL and in smaller lettering in the corner, the chapter and verse in the Bible where that supposedly comes from. And they have megaphones, and for about three minutes you walk by a chorus of electronically amplified voices saying YOU'RE SICK, YOU'RE CONFUSED, YOU'RE GOING TO BURN IN HELL, etc.

Until those people don't show up anymore, that's how long feels right to me.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
12:13 / 01.07.02
But those people show up for EVERYTHING. They still show up for Juneteenth celebrations, Asian celebrations, etc... There will always be people who have a need to hate people because they are different. I almost think it has to be genetic, since it sure isn't rational.

And remember, the first reason that conservatives hated Clinton that they could say wasn't based on the Party he was with was that he changed the rules on gay in the military. The haters are always louder, but they always look stupid when they do it.

No, I don't think it is today, but I think it's sooner than later.
 
 
Ganesh
22:18 / 01.07.02
Until there's social and legal equality, there's a need for the parades. Didn't any of my overstretched baseball analogy hit home? It's not so much 'yay my team won' but 'yay my team which isn't allowed to play unfettered any other day of the year is on the pitch'...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:44 / 02.07.02
Question for the gay contingent: How do you feel about sraight people such as myself attending Pride? Mardi Gras is held pretty close to my home and it looks like fun, but I feel awkward about going. On one hand attending could be seen as an expression of solidarity; on the other hand, I'm going to go home to my boyfriend, who I can hold hands with in the street and snog in the pub without getting the shit kicked out of me, etc. I'd feel sort of like a gatecrasher.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
08:52 / 02.07.02
i have always been totally into allies attending either the march or the pride festival (well, when it was free - wouldn't particularly recommend it to anyone these days, but the march has a real buzz). my parents and my sister - all straight - have been on the pride march. you are most welcome to come, to show solidarity and to have a good time.

just don't dress up as a penis, okay?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:02 / 02.07.02
I have to say I know how Mordant feels on that one... a gay friend of mine at my old job was always trying to get me to attend with him, and while I really wanted to I had this nagging sense that I'd be intruding.
God knows why. He dragged me to Pop Stars enough times and I didn't even like the music...
 
 
Ray Fawkes
18:27 / 02.07.02
I think anybody who assumes that outrageous behavior at Pride is an intentional shock tactic is more than likely erring on the side of self-absorption. As far as I'm concerned, these people are partying on a day that allows them to express themselves any way they want to (and encourages it), without fear of being shouted down. Damn, I love it. They love it! They don't really care if it bothers you and why should they? This is their day to party (and, I'd say, more importantly: to be seen), and you're invited if you want to celebrate with them.

If you'll forgive the somewhat inadequate comparison (simply because it's a subject admittedly closer to home for me): it reminds me of the behavior of goths on Hallowe'en. A day to let loose with your preferred (and often put-upon) aesthetic among compatriots, friends, and well-wishers.
 
 
grant
21:05 / 02.07.02
I'm getting an awful mental picture of a goth in a penis costume with a frilly lace collar right now, Ray.

Thanks.
 
 
Ganesh
21:19 / 02.07.02
Here in the UK, the vast majority of penises have 'collars'...
 
 
Puzimandias
23:32 / 02.07.02
One of the biggest complaints last year about the Brighton Pride march in the local rags wasn't about the costumes or the people but the amount of traffic that got held up. Anything that causes that is OK in my book especially since the last time the police let us reclaim a street it was in a pedestrian precinct.(Ok, slightly OTT)
As a practising asexual (I'm trying to convince myself it's a viable life choice and not, obviously, caused by ugliness, laziness or a lack of confidence) I find myself in a minority of one every time I sit down with my friends in a social situation and find I'm the only person not holding hands with anyone else.
I also tagged along in a couple of local Pride marches a few years ago because it was a great chance to wear my Rocky Horror costume without going to a theatre. And, yes, I did feel guilty because I still didn't belong.
It was great fun though.
 
  

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