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A question for the pride parade people

 
  

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Saint Keggers
02:31 / 10.06.02
Seeing as how I know some people will immeadiatly go on the offensive/counter attack mode..STOP IT!

Ok..now that we can (hopefully) get a open conversation going. Can you people explain it to me. Whats the purpose. I have gay friends who say they just want to be treated like everyone else and then I see them in what I can only describe as a cross between a Carnival parade and Mad Max. To me,its the same thing as saying how you love the game of bseball and then showing up flaunting a beer gut painted with your team slogan screaming "Were #1!!!"
I dont get it.
Please explain it to me.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
03:02 / 10.06.02
I'll get jumped on too, but I get uncomfortable when people are dressed like penises walking down the street (as they do in the MPLS parade). I understand being pround of who you are and wanting to be accepted, but that always strikes me as just plain rude, no matter WHAT orientation you are.
 
 
Traz
03:48 / 10.06.02
Gay-Pride Parade Sets Mainstream Acceptance of Gays Back 50 Years
 
 
Shortfatdyke
06:11 / 10.06.02
well i don't want to be treated like everyone else. i don't want mainstream acceptance. fuck the mainstream, there's more to life than striving for assimilation. i want people to respect my difference.

i suspect just a touch of 'yes it's okay to be queer, just don't flaunt it' in this thread.

queers spend nearly their whole lives being told they're bad/disgusting/wrong. as far as i know, baseball fans don't have this problem. for many queers, a pride march is a rare occasion where they can be in the majority and celebrate, rather than be told they're bad/disgusting/wrong. heterosexuals get to flaunt their sexuality 24 hours a day if they please with no fear of having the shit kicked out of them or being killed.

i've never seen anyone on a pride march 'dressed as a penis'. some express themselves in a more 'outrageous' way. that's their thing. pride marches are the friendliest and most open political demonstrations i've ever been on. london gets 70,000 odd, maybe more. and there's no trouble, no hostility, no intimidation of people who aren't like us. i see that as being rather the opposite of 'rude'.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:24 / 10.06.02
..nonetheless, if they only took Kegboy's advice, they would be able to present their sexuality in a far less confrontational and alienating way.

But that's the thing about queers. No common sense.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
07:41 / 10.06.02
well if i had the time i'd love to break down the entire article that was linked. but here's one extract: "Among the parade sights and sounds that did inestimable harm to the gay-rights cause: a group of obese women in leather biker outfits passing out clitoris-shaped lollipops to horrified onlookers"

why were they horrified? because fat women shouldn't be out on the streets? enjoying themselves? that giving out lollipops is suddenly a bad thing? would it have been easier on the eyes of the poor onlookers if the dykes had been skinny, long haired and therefore more acceptable as the way women 'should' look. as well as better for the het male wank fantasies a few no doubt went along for - chicks getting in on etc.

best bit was the quote from lady labia, one of the organisers: "we'll give those breeders something to really look at next year".
 
 
w1rebaby
09:02 / 10.06.02
I have gay friends who say they just want to be treated like everyone else

i suspect what they may have been saying is that they want to be treated as equal to everyone else, rather than like everyone else. Y'know, equal but different.
 
 
Ganesh
09:08 / 10.06.02
Speaking for myself, Kegboy, I spend the vast majority of my day-to-day life ensuring that I present myself and my sexuality to those around me in a way which doesn't a) offend their sensibilities, and b) result in a verbal or physical kicking.

Pride is one day when I don't have to worry about sanitising, packaging or tailoring myself for the heterosexual majority - I can appear in public dressed however I want, holding hands, hugging, kissing. My. Boy. Friend. It's pretty much the one time and place I feel safe enough to do so.

So I overcompensate, go a little overboard? Wouldn't you?
 
 
The Natural Way
09:36 / 10.06.02
Excuse me?

"I get uncomfortable when people are dressed like penises walking down the street (as they do in the MPLS parade). I understand being pround of who you are and wanting to be accepted, but that always strikes me as just plain rude, no matter WHAT orientation you are."

Should've signed it "OUTRAGED of Tunbridge Wells."
 
 
Traz
09:57 / 10.06.02
shortfatdyke, did you happen to notice that the article was from The Onion? You know, the online newpaper that parodies everyone and everything?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
10:02 / 10.06.02
oops! i'm at work and didn't look too hard at where the link was from. although it seems the article is almost too good a parody - the worrying thing is that i've read so much similar stuff in the press that it read like the real thing.

will look more carefully next time. excuse me while i slope off in embarrassment.
 
 
Rage
10:23 / 10.06.02
Maybe the reason for pride parades is similiar to the reason for concerts, political events, and message board gatherings? Something like entertainment, unity, meeting others like you, etc. etc. etc.

Is it really about the cliche "wanting to be treated as equals by seperating yourself" as much as it's about the things mentioned above? Ever been to a gay pride parade? If not, how do you know what's going on with them anyway? All you know is what you hear, read about, and watch on TV. Try attending before you speculate, maybe? Just a thought.
 
 
Rage
10:24 / 10.06.02
And of course political events can also be for political purposes...
 
 
Traz
10:29 / 10.06.02
Sorry. I wasn't deliberately trying to lure anyone out on a limb so I could saw it off.

Good points from both sides, but I think that we may be judging the parade by its most militant participants, which is equivalent to judging the feminist movement by the actions of the Society for Cutting Up Men.
 
 
bitchiekittie
11:27 / 10.06.02
I dunno, I think dressing "outrageously" gets the attention. if they were all dressed in business suits or khakis, would joe blow pay any attention? maybe theyll never notice the underlying message, too keen on the attire. but who knows? and hell, Id think it would be easy for absolutely anyone to see the fun in having an excuse - any excuse - to dress up and "act out" a bit (not that this is the only or even *a* reason, only that I cant see how someone could miss that bonus).

but really, even if everyone was dressed in work gear, there would still be people saying something along the lines of "gawd, why do those people have to keep rubbing our noses in it?". some people are perpetually repulsed by anything that they cant personally get thier hands into. while I cant speak for why the people who dress up (or down!) do so, Id have to say that actively annoying this sort would be sufficient motivation for me
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
13:58 / 10.06.02
so a militant few are spoiling the party for ... who, exactly? You're comparing people dressing up in costumes with a manifesto advocating violence (one I happen to think is worth reading, certainly). A wee bit hysterical? As 'nesh says, however you present in your 'everyday' life, Pride is about being able to do what straight people do every day of the year: hang out with your friends/partners and present exactly how you want to, with no compromise...

At the risk of being obvious, we don't hear very much about straight people being asked to tone down their flagrantly hetrosexual ways to save *our* blushes, do we?
 
 
Persephone
15:15 / 10.06.02
Hm. What's the purpose. Well the purpose for me and my friends is expression. Your gay friends say that they want to be treated like everyone else, but what do you think that means? I think that one thing that could mean is that they can express who they are and feel pride not shame. It's no fun to be treated like everyone else, if the condition is that you have to act like "everyone else" ...and it's far better to expand that idea of "everyone" in my perfect world. Who do you think of as everyone? White shirts and khaki dockers, with penises neatly tucked away? That's not everyone. Pride is about letting people see that there's more to everyone than that.
 
 
Fist of Fun
15:35 / 10.06.02
I'm all in favour of a good bit of Pride being extreme - a good bit of humanity (straight/gay, omnivore/vegetarian, whatever dividing line you want) is extreme. And who's to say that the extreme section isn't merely avant garde? If you didn't have the extreme section, the next section in would be 'extreme' and we'd have the same discussion about whether this was 'acceptable' (by whoever's standard) or 'too extreme'. I remember being ticked off by numerous older members of society as a teenager for snogging in public (and I'm straight). OK, so it was probably partially a reflection of my technique, but it just goes to show - what is today unacceptable may strike the next generation as laughably mundane BUT if nobody takes the first step in that direction then the next generation gets to fight all the same battles.

Nah, so long as one's action doesn't actually infringe on another's physical safety / basic human rights, I cannot see the difficulty, and I can see some potential benefit.
 
 
Traz
16:32 / 10.06.02
bitkit, I agree and I disagree. Yes, people who are shocked by two members of the same kissing could benefit from occassionally being jolted out of their own numb little reality. On the other hand, deliberately trying to bait a bigot into giving you a reason to be indignant isn't really a step towards harmony and understanding, is it? It's something you have to weigh on a case-by-case setting.

plums, the word "militant" doesn't always pertain to those who are engaged in or who advocate physical violence; it can be used to describe anyone with an agressive or combative attitude. I'm just saying that heterosexuals shouldn't judge the homosexual community by their angriest, most bitter members. You know, the ones who add a bishop's miter to their costume in the hopes of antagonizing someone.

Some of the folks who dress up in leather chaps are doing it because they want to have fun. Some of them are dressing it up in the hopes of pissing somebody off. It's the latter group I have a problem with. It's not the costume so much as the motive behind it.

Also, I ought to point out that only rarely do I see heterosexuals acting as flamboyantly, joyously, openly sexual as homosexuals do during a march. Maybe the scantily-clad straights are feverishly groping each other on every street corner in your town every day, but they don't here. (Where are you again? Maybe I'll move.)
 
 
Shortfatdyke
16:38 / 10.06.02
traz - i see hets holding hands, kissing, wearing wedding rings, i hear them talking openly about their partners, their marriages, showing one another affection.... *all* of these things are either illegal or potentially dangerous for queers to do. hets don't have to be fucking on street corners to be waving a banner about their sexuality. they just take it for granted that they can do these things.
 
 
Traz
16:43 / 10.06.02
I'll concede that point.

You know, it just occurred to me...the last clear memory I have of seeing a couple kiss in public dates back over two months ago. This town isn't that uptight; I definitely need to get out more.
 
 
bitchiekittie
16:44 / 10.06.02
"Yes, people who are shocked by two members of the same kissing could benefit from occassionally being jolted out of their own numb little reality. On the other hand, deliberately trying to bait a bigot into giving you a reason to be indignant isn't really a step towards harmony and understanding, is it? It's something you have to weigh on a case-by-case setting."

I was only speaking for myself: I personally would find such irritation incentive enough to do something outrageous (and again, in my opinion, something seemingly very fun). for me, the idea of saying to a bigot "nyyyaaaaaaah, lookit me and you cant do nuttin!" is a pleasant one. granted, Im not the most adult or sensitive person in the world, so Im in no way comparing my (potential) motivation to that of others

I also dont think dressing a certain, legal way to participate in or attend a parade (for example, "a group of obese women in leather biker outfits") is sufficient cause for outrage, regardless of the wearers intentions
 
 
Ganesh
17:25 / 10.06.02
Traz: do you know how much leather chaps cost?! Much as I might crave a good queer-bashing, I'm not sure even a comparitively wealthy pervert like myself would invest that much merely "in the hopes of pissing somebody off". Aren't your assumptions here just a tad narcissistic?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
21:48 / 10.06.02
God, I really hate it when people get dressed up and have fun doing their thang, especially when they make a lot of noise. Thank God they crawl back into their foul-smelling lairs and only do it one day a year.

No, Kegboy, you stop it. Long enough to think it through, in a world that's full of war, hunger and hatred, I think the odd queer in a frock (or chaps, yum) might pass below even your radar.
 
 
Traz
23:31 / 10.06.02
Ganesh, are you honestly suggesting that there's no such thing as a homosexual who's looking for a fight? Sure, the vast majority of gays and lesbians don't have to, since fights come looking for them, but that doesn't mean that there aren't a few out there who are impatient and feisty enough to start their own.

This guy, for instance, looks a tad hacked off, but his message is rational and purely defensive; I don't have any problem with that. This person, on the other hand, is just trying to hack somebody off. That doesn't necessarily mean his views are wrong, but the attitude he's bringing to the bargaining table could use a little fine-tuning, in my opinion. A little less Emma Frost, a little more Jean Grey, you know?
 
 
Saint Keggers
23:41 / 10.06.02
Zocher: See the first section of my post? It said: "Seeing as how I know some people will immeadiatly go on the offensive/counter attack mode..STOP IT! "

I never said I was against anyone doing their thing. Im rather ambivalent to the whole thing. All I was saying was: "I dont get it. Please explain it to me." I dont get sumo wrestling. To me its a bunch of fat guys groping each other. Does it mean I think its a bad thing. No. It means that I dont understand it. Not that its good or bad but solely that I dont understand it . Hell if I wanted to judge people for doing their thing I think I would have offed a few million mimes before a gay parade even entered my radar....and dont get me started on the ninja.
 
 
Persephone
01:27 / 11.06.02
Ah Traz... you don't want to go there, do you? I think you started off saying that you were fine with Pride?

I'm afraid I don't see patience as much of a virtue. Do you know, I think patience is what waits as impatience goes out and get the job done.

That guy holding the church organ sign looks mild to me, which makes it seem like you're setting your margins pretty wide. Why pick on that guy, as opposed to the casual vicious homophobia that you stumble over, say, in an Internet chat about the new Spiderman movie?

The "far out" aspects of a Pride parade, in my experience, are just not really that far out. Everything that I've seen --not that I've seen everything-- falls well within the realm of presentation and expression, and those can go to great lengths before I'm even going to think about curtailing them.
 
 
Traz
03:32 / 11.06.02
Persephone, there's a time for immediate, no-holds-barred, in-your-face action, and there's a time for a building bridges of trust and respect. When it comes to acquiring civil rights, I wholeheartedly agree with the former approach: fuck what the Bible-thumpers say, let's ram this bill through Congress now. But if gays and lesbians want to be able to kiss in public and not have people scowl and mutter, that's going to require the latter approach, the soft touch. You can force someone to grudgingly tolerate gays, but you can't force someone to honestly accept the notion that homosexuality is perfectly normal.

That said, yes, I must admit that I am whining about a small and relatively mild group of participants. I've been thinking about how Malcolm X sabotaged his own attempt to deal with racial inequity by claiming that all white men are descended from the Devil, but, to be honest, I don't see anyone even remotely analagous in the Gay Pride movement.

In the long run, I am convinced that gentle persuasion will be of more value to the gay community than a show of force...but, yeah, I suppose I have been an exaggerating the severity of the situation to make my point. A few people who march with scowls instead of smiles aren't that big of a deal; they may even be necessary for these early stages of the movement.

I guess I drop into Devil's Advocate mode automatically; tainted demonic blood, you know.

No hard feelings?
 
 
The Natural Way
07:35 / 11.06.02
Kegboy: if you can't understand pride by now there's probably no point trying to explain it to you. I know, try something weird like sensitivity or, y'know, empathy....

I hate yr fucking annoying "reasonable" tone. Put yrself in someone else's shoes.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:35 / 11.06.02
plums, the word "militant" doesn't always pertain to those who are engaged in or who advocate physical violence; it can be used to describe anyone with an agressive or combative attitude.

Aksherley, ze is referencing a previous comparison between Pride marchers and the Society for Cutting up Men, who *did* advocate violence.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
09:11 / 11.06.02
Personally, I hate Pride March. In this town it's an excuse for every pink-dollar-chasing telecommunications company to advertise for free for a whole day, in the streets. It's an opportunity for all the political parties to get out there and look like they give a fuck about queers when we all know that they just want our votes. Let's be a little realistic here: Pride March is not militant. Not even close. Not here, and (I suspect) not in London. Traz, Kegboy et al -- you're about ten of fifteen years too late, baby. As far as I can tell, hardly any gay militancy actually happens in Western countries anymore. Everyone's too busy having sex and getting IVF and having babies and getting nice jobs.

(And really, darling, the chaps are not to piss people off, they're actually more to enable pissing *on* people... There's a difference...
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:25 / 11.06.02
"And really, darling, the chaps are not to piss people off, they're actually more to enable pissing *on* people..."

Yeah, but that's the whole point! They could piss on each other through zip flies like normal people, but no, they have to invent a whole species of pants just to highlight their oh-so-flashy yellow arcs. How do they expect to be taken seriously like that!>?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:31 / 11.06.02
Il Discino sideswipes a very good point. To wit, queers are allowed to express themselves as they wish to *that one day* and *as long as they are polite* and the rest of the time they can, as Zocher suggests, disappear off to their stinkholes and toss each other's salad by guttering lamplight.

Or, to look at it another way. I fucking hate pink hair and dreadlocks on white people. Hate hate hate. And piercing, except for earrings on girls. One hole in each ear maximum. I realise theese things are legal, but that doesn't make them any less repulsive. Why do I have to tolerate that grotesque display of abnormality every May Day in London?

I'm not condemning it. I just don't understand it. Like Sumo.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:12 / 11.06.02
Mmmmmm... guttering...

To be honest, Kegs, the reasonable tone pissed me off too... no offence, but all it does is say "I know what I'm about to say will be seen as inflammatory, but that's just because I can't be arsed to think about my phrasing for more than the time it takes to type this post."

Sensitive issues can only be debated sensitively by people prepared to be sensitive. Take the time to do so, or what you'll get is (at best) world-weary ROLLEYES and a wee bit of contempt, and at worst, the argument you claim you're trying to avoid.

And I find suited and booted casuals with their neatly cropped hair incredibly disturbing, personally. It's something about the way their eyes follow you around the room... (shudder)
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:23 / 11.06.02
Pride is a celebration not an apology. An assertion and not a plaintive request for approval. Though this has arguably been corrupted in recent times.

I think he whole problem may be, Kegboy, that you sound as if people should pander to your sensibilities. That can get people's backs up, no matter how reasonably you phrase it...
 
  

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