BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


The Tipping Point

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Tom Coates
08:32 / 04.05.02
I've just finished Malcolm Gladwell's "The Tipping Point", and frankly it was fascinating, and in many ways it was a much better read and a much more proactive approach to memetics and thought contagion than any of the other books I've read on the subject. Has anyone else read it? Are there any good critiques you know of?
 
 
Tom Coates
11:57 / 04.05.02
Here's the official site: The Tipping Point
 
 
the Fool
23:22 / 05.05.02
I'm wondering if this thread has any relation to this. I haven't read the book myself, but the 'teaser' sounds very interesting. I'm particularily interested in the way ideas can 'manufacture' reality at the moment, and this contagion idea of meme transferal sounds like it might fit in with this concept.
 
 
SMS
00:50 / 06.05.02
I've always had this feeling that these memetic theories must be testible in some way. Does he address this?
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:02 / 06.05.02
Re Memes: and the Tipping Point - Gladwell doesn't mention anything about meme theory and its proponents in his book. This was a huge "sticking point" for me, as Gladwell is obviously a very educated man, well read in a variety of different fields, and so he must have at least heard of memes. But, no mentions of Dawkins, Blackmore or (ew) Rushkoff.

Why wouldn't Gladwell mention these memes, as it is probable that he knows about them? I suspect there is a patina of pseudoscience about the meme phenomenon (the way it has been latched onto in dubious ways by "countercultural" forces like Rushkoff, on one hand, and the advert industry on the other). About a year ago I read a good critique of the state of meme science by (I think) Tom Wolfe. Will try to dig it up.

About the Tipping Point itself, the thing that struck me most was the "Broken Windows" theory of criminal (societal) control. A thumbnail sketch for those who don't know about it: Instead of concentrating on "big" crimes, police forces crack down on so-called "quality of life" kinds of crimes in order to instill an aura of lawfulness in a municipality. Cops are instructed not to look the other way for crimes such as jaywalking, vandalism, fare-jumping, etc., the rationale being that if the "criminal underclass" sees people getting caught for these minor offenses, they're less likely to commit major offenses. In the example in the Tipping Point, this strategem had the added affect that a high percentage of those arrested on these small crimes had warrants outstanding on more major crimes, or were carrying concealed weapons, drugs, etc.

Of course, there are critiques of Broken Windows out there as well. I must go search arts and letters daily for these articles.
 
 
grant
15:24 / 06.05.02
Synopsis for the lazy?
 
 
Tom Coates
16:41 / 06.05.02
I think you'd really have to be fairly lazy, actually! It's a very easy read and one of those zeitgeist-defining books that seems to have really caught on in the popular imagination. But essentially it goes a bit like this:

One year Hush Puppies were very unpopular - the next they were huge. How come?!
One year New York was one of the most crime-ridden cities in the US, the next it wasn't. How come?!
One year Micronesia had almost no experience of suicide, the next suicide was incredibly common. How come?!

Gladwell talks about contagion as a model for idea transmission which would be entirely familiar to those of us who've read about memetics. An idea is spread to another person in some way, and the most dynamic ideas spread fast and effectively throughout a group of people....

What Gladwell does is interesting is talk about two things - firstly the specifics of how ideas or information is passed around and secondly the concept of a 'tipping point' where things that were previously done by a few people suddenly become done by millions...

He addresses the specifics of what is essentially meme transmission in this way:

1) People who spread ideas quickly can be subdivided into three main groups
a) Mavens - people who collect information and compare prices and read a lot and basically are the people who either start or discover new memes. Their expertise is valued, so they spread ideas well.
b) Connectors - people who are good at talking to other people and enjoy doing so and may have huge extended networks of acquaintances or friends. They are the people who facilitate the distribution of ideas (perhaps in a diluted form) from the mavens through to everyone else...
c) Salesmen - communicators who's strength may not be in uncovering the best information but who's strength of personality or charisma means that people who hear ideas from them are likely to remember them....

You can think of this system of inter-connected individuals like some kind of network diagram. Imagine a pulse that is fired from one point into one other. The first point - the pulse-firer - is the maven. Imagine that this hits a normal person, who sends it to their two friends in a slightly diluted form, who send it to their friends in a slightly diluted form. Sooner or later, the pulse is barely perceptible.

Now replace the second point with a connector rather than a normal person and suddenly the idea has gone from one maven to one connector to forty or fifty of their friends. It's still getting weaker, but because it had that sudden explosive burst earlier, each one of those friends may send it to one of their friends. Rather than reaching seven people (in the model above), suddenly it reaches a hundred and fifty of them.

Now replace one of the connectors forty or fifty friends with a salesman, and the 'signal strength' is suddenly bashed right up to full again. And if one of the salesman's friends turns out to be another connector, then suddenly you have a completely new large-scale branch of the idea spread out into the world...

Network them all together and suddenly ideas and impulses are spiralling all over the place - with the mavens who know the best connectors and / or salesmen having more impact on the ideas spread within the system than those who don't....

______

Anyway - next he talks about 'stickiness', which is about how memorable an idea is or how attractive a trend. He talks a little about manufacturing stickiness. But basically what you're talking about is an initial signal dropped into the mesh of connectors, mavens, salesmen and normal people that's of higher strength than any others.
______

And then finally he talks about context - and about how context can transform situations and hence the spread of ideas within it...

The other idea, the 'tipping point' is probably best explained by a brief adaptation of one of his own analogies. Imagine creatures who mate once every twelve months and lay exactly two eggs. When the temperature drops beneath zero in the winter the adults die, and then in the spring the eggs hatch, they feed over the summer and lay eggs of their own in the autumn. Assuming nothing else either good or bad happens then they'll always have a steady population decade after decade.

Now imagine that the temperature raises by one degree, which means that in the winter it doesn't quite reach freezing, and ten percent of the creatures somehow survive through into the next year and are able suddenly to mate again. At the end of the first year one thousand creatures may have laid 1000 eggs, but at the end of the second year one thousand creatures (joined by 100 who survived) will lay 1100 eggs. The next year these 1100 creatures will be joined by another 110 who survived, and will lay 1210 eggs. By the end of the next year there will be 1311. The year after that 1442. Then 1596. Then you're getting to around 1700, then 1870, then over two thousand. The population which was stable for thousands of years has doubled in less than ten. And why? Because the temperature rose by one degree. That was the tipping point....
 
 
grant
19:20 / 06.05.02
Damn - I'm wondering if he had an article on "connectors" in New Yorker a couple years back. A friend showed it to me, and said he just realized what I was. I'm obsessed with introducing people.

There was an example of a "connector" in the piece, an old lady in New York who introduced Isaac Asimov to Arthur C. Clarke, I think. "You'll like him, he just loves science fiction."

I wonder if this is the same fellow, or if the magazine writer was just borrowing from Gladwell.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
19:24 / 06.05.02
(check Gladwell.com, Grant. It has all of his New Yorker pieces (he's the science writer there), so it's probably the same guy.)
 
 
Persephone
22:24 / 07.05.02
Heh. I flunked that Connector test... but I'm one degree away from Lois Weisberg.

Here's my question. Does this theory have to be (scientifically, statistically) true to be valid? I am thinking about the whole Kuhnian idea of the paradigm shift, which --correct me if I am mistaken-- has been misapplied all over the world, and Kuhn himself was mortified at how it caught on. A professor I was in contact with did a fairly thorough proof that showed that there's no "shift" and no "paradigm" --at least vis-a-vis literature. Yet I love the paradigm shift as an idea, and I would swear to you that that's how my head works.

So the thing I worry about the Tipping Point is, is this "popular science" pretty much not science? And if it isn't science, do I have to not believe in it? At my local Barnes & Noble, this was shelved under "Business and Marketing" whereas The Selfish Gene was under "Science, Evolution."

Oh well. Someone run with that.

Different question: doesn't this book make you *want* to be a Connector, or a Maven, or a Salesmen? Looking at the abstract here, I am focusing on the word "proactive." Also I saw this quote by Gandhi on a refrigerator magnet at the art store: Be the change that you want to change the world. (Sorry. That's not right, I'm sure Gandhi said something better.) But yeah, I'd *love* to start some epidemics... so I lay in bed thinking, of these three types that I'm not close to being, which do I have the best chance of success of transforming myself into?

What about you?
 
 
Tom Coates
22:31 / 07.05.02
Grant - the example you site of the woman who introduced people to Arthur C Clarke was in the book, so I'm going to guess it is the same guy. The book is very easy to read and I would heartily recommend it to all barbelites...
 
 
SMS
23:05 / 07.05.02
So the thing I worry about the Tipping Point is, is this "popular science" pretty much not science? And if it isn't science, do I have to not believe in it?

It is possible not to be science and still be true. Most every topic in philosophy is not science. Logic, ethics, epistemology (including the episteomology of science), all fall into non-science, but they still ask relevant questions. I think a lot of popular science has the potential to become science, or may become a kind of social study. Marxism claimd to be a science for a while, and is now more of a philosophy. It doesn't make a Marxist wrong.
 
 
Persephone
03:24 / 08.05.02
Then why do you care if it's testible?

Tsk grant, it wasn't an old lady in New York; it was Lois Weisberg, in Chicago. That means you are three-degrees separated from both Issac Asimov and Arthur C. Clarke.
 
 
No star here laces
09:44 / 08.05.02
This book is the bible of the ad industry at present.

Everyone in marketing is feverishly trying to work out how you can get 'connectors' to selectively prefer your product in order to spread it faster.

I think there is clearly a lot of truth in the thesis, and there are a number of studies which have attempted to provide a statistical basis for the theory, with some success (I believe). Of course most of the 'tipping points' identified by Gladwell are really examples of the instability of complex systems (not that it invalidates his thesis, but I'd be interested in what someone who was more familiar with chaos theory would think of the book).
 
 
Tom Coates
15:31 / 08.05.02
I think the fact that it's the staple of the advertising industry is exactly why we should be reading it. There are a wide number of political implications in this - particularly for activism for example... Is it possible to make another person's horrible idea non-sticky. Is it possible to make antibody agents that spread faster than bad ideologies - and if so, how do you disseminate them. What kind of medium would you need which would spread ideas of tolerance, self-reliance, human rights, imagination and creativity but which BY ITS VERY NATURE doesn't easily spread evil vibes... Etc.

Mutual Advertised Destruction - they have read it, so we have to...
 
 
Persephone
15:51 / 08.05.02
(Perhaps you would like this in the Books Forum? People have been wanting to read more non-fic than we tend to do. You can advertise in Book Personals & set up a schedule for reading with folks... then, perhaps, back to Head Shop for more theorizing or to Switchboard for organizing to action?)
 
 
grant
18:16 / 08.05.02
Persephone: Heh. I flunked that Connector test... but I'm one degree away from Lois Weisberg.

Weird. I only got 17, but I think one of them was my ex-girlfriend. Meaning: my ex-girlfriend has the right last name and lives in Manhattan, where I think she's in the phone book.

The think about Weisberg living in Chicago points out a flaw in the test - I'm terrible with last names and peripheral concrete facts. I'm only good with things that interest me.

I don't know if that might point out something about the theory - it works on an erotics of information rather than a logical structure. Sort of imposing (or uncovering) structures onto our desires and passions.
 
 
Persephone
21:05 / 08.05.02
I don't know if that might point out something about the theory - it works on an erotics of information rather than a logical structure. Sort of imposing (or uncovering) structures onto our desires and passions.

Don't stop, say more!

And sorry, Gandhi: "Be the change you wish to see in the world."
 
 
grant
03:25 / 09.05.02
Well, what if "signal strength" in the meme-transmission is regarded solely as "excitement" or "enthusiasm" or "joy"?
Wouldn't this maven-connector-salesman schema be mapping the way desire moves through society?
 
 
Tom Coates
09:10 / 09.05.02
That's a really interesting point, but perhaps I'm missing the point. Isn't it rather more like speed and a car? Signal strength could be viewed like speed - the higher the rate the further it goes - but at the end of the day the speed is merely an attribute of the car, rather than the thing in itself. I could be missing the point of course...
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:53 / 09.05.02
A random thought.

Aren't there two ways you could view strength here? One is in terms of virulence - how strongly are the ideas taken up and incorporated into belief structures. Do they overturn what was already there or simply form an interesting but minor facet to existing structures?

And the second would be speed as Tom points to. How quickly does an idea get taken up and how quickly does it spread from person to person.
 
 
No star here laces
12:03 / 09.05.02
Isn't 'strength' a measure of how appealing it the idea is to the salesman types? But as salesmen will represent a very diverse range of interests, there will always be a certain number of salesmen who will like any particular idea...
 
 
grant
14:48 / 09.05.02
Well, I'd counter that by saying "speed" is just an element of "power."
F=ma.
Force = mass times acceleration.
Signal strength = meme times desire.

And the path that the idea would take would be the path of least resistance to enthusiasm....
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:53 / 09.05.02
Desire makes sense, but how is one meme more so than another?
 
 
grant
15:06 / 13.05.02
Maybe certain memes are more "massive," and certain memes more "streamlined."
But I think the reason Gladwell doesn't use "meme" as a concept is that he's interested in the role certain people play in moving ideas.
In other words, certain memes make it because they appeal to certain carriers: connectors, mavens, & salesmen.

They're sparkly. They're hot. They turn some people the fuck ON, man.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:26 / 13.05.02
Yes indeed. I can't help picturing a catholic priest being turned on by the meme of celibacy. But thats a twisted fantasy that has no place here.

I like the idea of carriers, but what about innate (?) vulnerability. So I mean when people are ready for an idea to take hold and it quickly takes off.
 
 
YNH
18:07 / 13.05.02
Not much to add at this time.... but it might be worth Tom checking out The Ideavirus. The site allows free download of the entire book (a proposed strategy for extending its reach, even, as the print version was $40 US). It's been awhile since I went thru it and it reads more like how one would pitch a marketing idea at a meeting, but covers similar ground discussed above.

Funny, I thought of grant immediately when I read the connector definition, too.
 
 
grant
17:18 / 14.05.02
I wonder if this message board (and any message board) would act as an attractor for connectors. It seems like it would: maximum networking in minimum time.

I wonder what attractors for mavens or salespeople would be like.
 
 
Tom Coates
21:44 / 14.05.02
I think that messageboards facilitate the transmission of memes, but I certainly don't consider myself a connector. In fact that lugubrious ease with other people is something that I think a lot of people who come onto boards like this are precisely lacking. I'm probably over-generalising. I suspect this is a board that attracts primarily Mavens - people interested in ideas and conclusions, and happens to facilitate transmission of memes so as to make Mavens into Connectors...
 
 
grant
02:57 / 15.05.02
Well, Tom, if you meet somebody in the blog community who is a/interested in altered brain states, b/a devout Christian and c/a drum machine programmer, I'd hope you'd send hir in the general direction of expressionless, or Lothar, or Mordant.
I'm not sure you need to be smooth in person in order to make those connections - as long as they're made in some sphere, where the meme can travel.

Interesting, though, that Mavens could become Connectors. Maybe it's like ayurvedic body types - nobody's purely one type, most are a combination of all of them. Hmm.
 
 
Gibreel
12:58 / 15.05.02
Lyra> No doubt everybody in advertising is going apeshit for it. A snazzy, semi (pseudo) scientific model that reduces conscious human beings to programmeable/controllable mechanisms? Yah, waydago!

Not that human consciousness isn't a set of mechanisms - but do they really have to be so basic that the Marketing Department can succeed where religion and philospohy have failed?

How does this differ from traditional word of mouth or less traditional viral marketing?

I think your point about complex systems is a good one. But complexity is also *the* hot business topic of the moment.

I probably better read the book before ripping into it cause I am sure that it has a lot of useful points (and a few banal ones doubtless) to make.

grant> well, yeah - people may fall into different categories for this model with different kinds of ideas. I may tell 50 people about how good my travel agent was, I may create lots of funky musical ideas that catch on and become hit songs, I may relentlessly sell my love of The Tipping Point.
 
 
Fist of Fun
14:00 / 14.06.02
Picasso Triggerfish I think that Dawkins is mentioned in the book, albeit only in the footnotes. I cannot be sure, because my fiance managed to leave my copy somewhere in Suffolk where, no doubt, it is starting an epidemic as we speak.

More generally the stuff further up the thread about something being 'valid' even if it is not 'scientific', and questions about whether it could be 'tested'.

A.J.Ayer and the Vienese school of philosophy did a lot on the philosophy of language and the test of meaning being whether a statement was verifiable. This had quite a lot of impact on the whole Popper-ian philosophy of science in turn. But there was really one major problem with the 'test meaning by means of verification' - how do you test that statement? And if that statement is meaningless because there is no method of testing it, how can the whole concept work?

Speaking of Popper - I think his philosophy of science might have something to add to this discussion. His view (and this is a MASSIVE simplification, I know, don't shout at me) was that a scientific theory is just that - a theory which can be tested against data. The moment you can prove something logically it goes beyond being a scientific theory and becomes a logical necessity, and in the physical world there aren't many of those around because of the necessity to have a priori assumptions which render the 'necessity' suddenly only theoretical. On the other hand, if you cannot test it against something it may well be a theory, but it doesn't really count as scientific because that term implies a degree of 'testability' (and particularly, objective 'testability').

The way you test a scientific theory is twofold:
(i) Check it logically - make sure it doesn't have mathematical errors and the like; and
(ii) Check it against the physical world - make sure that experimental data conforms with it, and/or that it can predict experimental data. (The same thing theoretically, but the latter is sort of better because it tends to suggest that you have some sort of fundamental understanding of the problem rather than a description of the situation. The wider in application a theory is, the more useful a theory it is, the 'better' a scientific theory it is.)

The big problem with science is that you never prove a theory is the case - you just don't disprove it and, in the process, eliminate situations where you think it won't work and the theory becomes more and more useful. Obviously, there is a stage at which a theory becomes so unlikely to be proved false that it becomes thought of as true in the sense of 'proven absolutely' but all that it ever is really is 'proven on the basis of the evidence'.

{I suspect that many times there is a paradigm shift in science it is a case of persuading scientists to remember this last thing, and accept a new theory as being better. If only they remembered that the old one was not Gospel, things might be easier for the innovator.)

Finally, getting to the point, if during the test the theory doesn't work you have three options:
(i) Discard the theory.
(ii) Check the data
(iii) Amend the theory - possibly so it encompasses the data, or possibly so it excludes the sort of situation where the data is provided.

As to the Tipping Point theory - it probably doesn't come under my understanding of Scientific Theory because it is too broad-brush and therefore testing it would either be almost impossible or would result in so many false results that one would be constantly refining it until it became either unrecognisable or entirely unusable.

Rather, it is what I would call a Social Science Theory - useful, because it gives us a handle on certain complicated structures that are not easily susceptible to testing or analysing, but at the same time not so strong as to be anything more than a loose guide to the future.
 
 
Fist of Fun
14:02 / 14.06.02
Ok, sorry my last post was so long - I got carried away.
And sorry I haven't read Popper for about 10 years, so I might have got it all wrong.
And sorry I mucked up the HTML stuff.
Sorry, sorry, sorry, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
 
 
Persephone
01:58 / 19.06.02
Have had a few takers in Books for a discussion of Tipping Point, which we have been invited to the Head Shop for & here we are.

The above discussion I find totally interesting; but I'd like to ground the discussion a little more in the book soi-meme (so to speak), if that's all right. Tom has already done a neat precis above, and I would like to provide more detail about what Gladwell calls "the three rules of the Tipping Point" --i.e., "The Law of the Few," "The Stickiness Factor," and "The Power of Context."

But also I have a certain amount of insecurity about liking this book, which ynh just dubbed as "great for the bathroom" and I don't know what that means! I don't think this book is the holy of holies. But for me it contains a very sexy idea, which is stated right on the cover: "How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference." I am inordinately interested in little things. I believe that all big things are kept inside little things, and incidentally I think that doing a little thing is as hard as everyone imagines doing a big thing is... and that doing a big thing is flat-out impossible --but by doing a little thing, you will have done the big thing that's inside. But I digress. That is not in the book.

The thing is, I wish that this book would not just be for marketers to sell things. In my dreams, I would that this book be used as a practical manual for revolution. Which means, the mechanisms Gladwell describe must really work. Otherwise the book is no use, and therein is my personal burning question about this book. Because if this book is just an opiate, I need to start my withdrawal right away & waste no more time.

So.

The Law of The Few

One of the frustrating things about revolution --or perhaps I should more modestly say, change-- is that one seems faced with so many minds to be changed, and minds being fairly resistant to change ...c.f. sfd's recent comments about banging one's head on a brick wall. "The Law of the Few" posits this very seductive idea, which is that you *don't* have to change all those minds... you just have to *get to* a few key ones --e.g., your Connectors, your Mavens, your Salesmen.

Do you buy that?

If you do buy that, don't you think that it would be worthwhile to cultivate yourself as one of these --whichever is closest? And just out of curiosity, which of these are you close to?
 
 
Persephone
02:31 / 19.06.02
And by the way I am thinking over my questions following Fist's schema, which is very useful --thank you. And my post is even longer than yours.
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply