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YNH
04:31 / 03.05.02
Attention moderators: Please leave in Conversation

So I was wondering, what with all the hullabaloo about a suit that fancied hirself an iconoclast among 'em, and with the uproar about the proposed low rent housing developments and safehouses, what's happening here? And really, what oughtta be happening?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
05:49 / 03.05.02
I dunno- strip Twister? With baby-oil and forfeits?

My take on the main prob. is pretty simple. Barbelith, by-and-large, is informed by left-wing libetarian principles. Inasmuch as we got consensus, the consensus is mostly along those lines.

Now, everyone wants to be a rebel. This is a Good Thing; yay rebels. Unfortunately this has lead to people "rebelling" against the general principles of Barbelith, which is two shades of crap: 1) Nobody's actually making you do anything except show a tolerance and respect; and 2) because as far as I can see the rebellion consists of standing around and screaming "FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGS!" at the top of your lungs until someone tells you to shut the fuck up, and then writing 94 pages of self-piting bullshit about Why Yelling FAGS! At The Top Of Your Lungs Is Dead Clever And Naughty And Liberated And You're All Nazis.

But whaddayagonna do? It'll keep coming up, rearing its ugly head whenever someone's feeling a little put-upon. And when you get right down to it, we're really only talking about one or two individuals here.

Now, who wants to go and get the baby-oil?
 
 
w1rebaby
06:27 / 03.05.02
I own Twister. I'm, like, hyper-flexible. Play forfeit Twister with me and you'll all be hopping down the street with carrots up your arses.

No offence, but haven't we seen this thread before somewhere? There's a time for self-analysis and there's a time to let organic growth take place. Besides, I don't see any recent events as actually being significant changes in the nature of things.
 
 
the Fool
06:39 / 03.05.02
Now, who wants to go and get the baby-oil?

I'll get the baby oil, if you get the whipped cream!!!!!
 
 
w1rebaby
07:52 / 03.05.02
Ugh, you don't want to mix baby oil and whipped cream. Baby oil tastes disgusting.
 
 
Dao Jones
08:04 / 03.05.02
I'm always curious as to why I'm not the Barbelith rebel. It's the one thing no one's ever called me. Fascist (and 'facist'), Crypto-communist (or something), smart-ass, prevaricator. Never 'rebel' - always 'reactionary'.

But if Mordant is right and Barbelith is predominantly left-libertarian, then my occasional journeys into Paternalist Humanism and political pragmatism must at least put me in the running.

I've always used this place to look for good ways of being in the world, and to catch glimpses of other people's. Well, that and the occasional rant directed at muddle-headed ideologues.

You know, YNH, if you could spare the time, I'd love to see a postcard sketch of what line an intelligent Marxist actually takes through the world and the historical process (?) these days. Make a lovely zine article, too...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:39 / 03.05.02
Werl, that was obviously "left-wing libertarian" in the loosest possible, political compass test-y-est sense, not in the sense of a properly thought out ideology or anything.

(And I fear that there's been some misunderstanding: I shall not be playing twister. I shall be reclining on a silver couch, being fed peeled grapes and co-ordinating the live webcast.)
 
 
Jack Fear
15:25 / 03.05.02
A renewal of focus.

Barbelith is not the be-all and end-all of message boards, and should not try to be. We cannot be all things to all people, and to try to be such is a sure path to disaster.

The key, I think, is to play to our strengths—to determine what Barbelith offers that cannot be found elsewhere—and, in all honesty, I think it's the politics, the theory, and the magick.

Gather 'round, O Best Beloved, and Uncle Jack will tell you all about the early, early days of the board, when there were only about eight of us here, and there was practically no discussion of pop culture, and what little there was, was refracted invariably through the lens of "revolution." There were lots of earnest (and, in retrospect, silly) discussions of How is Movie X 'invisible'? but, in the end, it was something we couldn't find anyplace else.

In opening up to the discussion of media for their own sake—i.e., enthusiastically rather than analytically, criticizing the art itself rather than its broader societal implications—there was some dilution of purpose, and some movement towards homogeneity with the zillion other message boards out there. There was some agonizing over the decision, way back when; but it seemed like a good way to grow the board and attract new posters who might otherwise be too intimidated to join.

Now the pendulum has swung the other way, and there's a very real strain of anti-intellectualism on the rise here—just as there is in the larger culture. And thus another bit of Barbelith's specialness is eroded, as it assimilates and in turn is assimilated. The march toward homogeneity.

It's probably too late, now: the genie is out of the bottle, and there's no going back. But (and I've said this before) I think it's worth considering that perhaps Barbelith was never meant to flourish forever, and perhaps it would be better to make our three brilliant albums and then break up at the height of our powers than to end up squeezing our fat middle-aged arses into leather trousers and doing the rounds of football stadia reprising our long-gone "greatest hits."

All that being said:

There are lots of other boards out there for the discussion of movies qua movies, of music qua music, for RPGs qua RPGs—that is, for their own sake. There are other collaborative writing fora out there, other conversation pits.

But there is still no place that blends politics and theory quite the way this place does.

Our strength. What we do best. Play to it. Leave the rest (inasmuch as it's possible) to those places which do them better.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:34 / 03.05.02
[sigh]

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water...Jack comes along and says stuff you sort of knew but hadn't really thought of and wouldn't necessarily have been able to express...

Good call.
 
 
Sax
15:57 / 03.05.02
I have a tear in my eye. Honest. Just thinking about the old days...
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
16:00 / 03.05.02
so jack, thrown any molotov's in the name of revolution lately?

what i am asking, really is this--Are we about revolution anymore?
if so, who is our enemy, and who are our allies?
is this a violent revolution? if so i'm ok with it, lots of pent up work related rage here.
who is in charge, or is the revolution just how we want it, out of control?

I just want to know what the deal is. This was the 1st board i ever posted to, back in freshman college year when i was doing a report on the invisibles for a class and i found the bomb and then the nexus.
Even then, it seemed like a cool place with smart people who would talk about comics and movies, and also the occasional revolutionary plans.
Why hasnt anyone made Cocksmoker-The Anti Fanzine yet?
Im rambling, because i am at work and cant think straight with the drone of the company roaches all around me, but please, someone tell me why this place should even be here anymore.
 
 
Sax
16:03 / 03.05.02
I think Jack would be the first to say that revolution doesn't mean you have to heave a milk bottle full of burning petrol at a Starbucks.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
16:22 / 03.05.02
im just grouchy
and i cried when i found this, mostly cause none of my posts are there
http://wonderkid.4t.com/nexus.html

ban the bomb
 
 
Captain Zoom
16:32 / 03.05.02
See, I always thought, after The Invisibles ended and the discussion of it kind of dried up, that the next logical step was to take all the cool and wonderful things we'd talked about here and bring them to the outside world. I'm trying not to sound messianic here. I remember the days Jack speaks of, though maybe not quite that far back. And I remember the excitement we all felt when Grant made the occasional appearance on the board. And I remember the final issue of the Invisible where, in postscript, Grant said he'd shown us his, now we should show him ours. And he said that if the Invisibles was continuing anywhere, it was here.

For my part, I've opened a comic store, and I try to expand people beyond super heroes, beyond sterotypes. I try to suggest things to people to read that they might not usually. I flog the Invisibles like crazy, because it had a really profound effect on me. And I live my life for no one but me. That's the real revolution, and it can be quiet or it can be loud. Think for yourself and question authority. And if you think for yourself, what would you need authority for?

This weighed on me recently and I determined to leave the board and go and actually do things. Publish a collection of poetry (complimentary copy to Billy Corgan ), record an EP, get people interested enough in comics to have a reading group, that kind of thing. But revolution by one's self is a hard thing to do. Barbelith for me is a support system. I can bounce any outrageous idea I have off someone here and get feedback of many different kinds. I enjoy talking about games and comics and movies and collaborative creation and all that, but I think if Barbelith is still really about revolution, it's about taking these ideas and applying them to people and situations outside of the board.

The only person you can ultimately change is yourself. If you don't think you're serving your own personal revolution, change. But don't try to force others.

Rant finished.

Zoom.
 
 
Saint Keggers
16:35 / 03.05.02

"I think Jack would be the first to say that revolution doesn't mean you have to heave a milk bottle full of burning petrol at a Starbucks."

Ofcourse not..where's the style, the flair ,the penasche the je-ne sais quoi????
What you wanna do is drive a milk truck full of starbucks finest into an oil company headquaters! While blairing "What The World Needs Now" on the
truck mounted PA system!
 
 
Captain Zoom
16:45 / 03.05.02
Elijah, thanks for that link. That was excellent.

Zoom.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:21 / 03.05.02
Zoom, part of the problem was, by the time Grant decided to namecheck us, I think we were already part of the way on the journey away from what we were like when we were defined by the comic, 'we'd aready finished those 'am I, are you, is X' invisible (www.amIinvisibleornot.com?), certainly I felt a little embaressed by it being plugged then, but anyway...
I've taken things from the comic, but as the main vibe I get is essentially a peaceful inner-revolution one I'm always a bit surprised by those that see the Invisibles as promoting a cocktails and Kalashnikofs featurelength special.
 
 
YNH
17:29 / 03.05.02
Jack is my daddy.

Now, I'm not saying anything's wrong, mind; I'm just curious about some of what I've seen goin' on. There's an excommunication and ostracism vibe in the Policy, our closed borders, and a (well justified) snipe hunt. There's also a species of geek struggling for acceptance, and as Uncle Jack said, there's bad money driving out the good. So how do we, as a collective, play to our strengths? Who holds responsibility? Are we willing to say "this is what we want!" even in private? Or do we sacrifice structure in the name of "organic growth?" [losing the accent for a moment, organic growth as a farming concept has severe rules, certifications, and a deep emotional commitment from many of its proponents... whereas what this suggests is more of a deep ecology wild growth sort of thing]
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
18:20 / 03.05.02
The key, I think, is to play to our strengths—to determine what Barbelith offers that cannot be found elsewhere—and, in all honesty, I think it's the politics, the theory, and the magick.

I have to agree and disagree to varying extents on this one. I think there's a lot of room here for a lot of different types of people. I feel quite at home posting in several areas of the board, and the magick certainly isn't one of them. Mind you, I wouldn't mind discussing hockey with some of the good friends I have here - especially since I'm not in London, and I never get to meet you all in person and shoot the shit. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about the Lesser Well Read things in life on this board, because I do consider many of you 'friends' to some extent, even though we've never met.

What Barbelith offers that can't be found elsewhere is a certain demographic. One that enjoys politics, theory, and magick. Perhaps admitting that those are the strengths is a good thing; but how about giving this demographic a chance to talk about other things with each other? I don't post musical questions here because I think Barbelith is a great music forum, but because I want to know what people here are thinking, and I don't have any other way to contact all y'all. I find that just as important as knowing why vegetarianism is revolutionary and how to build a golem. I really wouldn't want to pare down any subjects. Just because I'm not interested in Magick, I don't want it to disappear.

Could this become a question of screening new members? An invite-only kind of board? I'd hate to be kicked out because I don't know the first thing about Derrida and feel like I can't participate in those discussions, but I also find the trollery vexing to the extreme. **Almost** everyone really does have something to offer, and I think we should capitalise on that.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:40 / 03.05.02
So it's a question of sentimental attachment, then? There's a whole wide world of hockey-related boards out on the Great InterHighWeb, but you'd prefer to post hockey talk here because, well, we're your mates... even though we may not know a hell of a lot about hockey...

Or is it fear? We're your mates, and the folks and those other hockey boards aren't... even though the quality of hoickey-related discourse there is presumably higher than it is at Barbelith, you can't be assured of the social acceptance you've got here... or, even presuming they're generally friendly, you're back at Square One re: figuring out the hierarchy and your position in it...

Or is it (and I'm as guilty of this as anyone) laziness? Compartmentalizing our web-surfing—music at Site A, comics at Site B, movies at Site C, vegetarianism at Site D—can be a chore: if we could only use Barbelith as our one-stop shop...
 
 
betty woo
18:44 / 03.05.02
Personally, I'm a little frustrated by the general impression that discussion on the topic of games/play is somehow inherently anti-intellectual. I'm fascinated by game theory - the course I took with Anatol Rapoport in uni included a lot of debate about games like tic-tac-toe, chess and even military strategy board games. There's a lot of psychology, design, sociology, even anthropological theory out there relating to the role of games and play in human life. I'm also really interested in the philosophy behind collaborative storytelling, which pops up time and again in the role-playing game format, and the tension between creating your own worlds and sharing a common world to facilitate that collaboration. Hakim Bey's notions on Immediatism are a big influence on my thinking in this area...

And yes, I have thought about it. I've been playing games on and off my whole life, and they've been (at times) a source of great inspiration, debate and enjoyment. They're also an important component of my magical practice (mask work, invocation and divination, anyone?). Yes, a forum on play could devolve into a handful of people trading tales of their last D&D campaign - but it could also be a place to discuss non-traditional forms of narrative, innovation in digital design, fiction suit creation, and a host of other topics that fit nicely with Barbelith's existing interests and membership.

You get five plays to a can, after all.
 
 
betty woo
18:49 / 03.05.02
And because I just saw Jack's last post: I'd like to be able to talk about play here because, well, every other place I've been only wants to talk about game rules, mechanics, and the +6 sword of flames stolen during the last dungeon crawl. Barbelith strikes me as the only online venue where I'd have a shot at talking about something I really enjoy with people who might just be interested in talking about the theory behind the games.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:58 / 03.05.02
Talking about "the theory behind the games" is not so much talking about games as it is talking about theory.

Just as talking about the politics behind a film is less about film as an artform than about politics.

If you get me.
 
 
betty woo
19:16 / 03.05.02
I don't think that's an accurate metaphor at all - there's a theory behind a film in the same way there's a theory behind a game. Talking about the theory behind a film is still talking about films. The politics of a film is something different.

For instance, the film "Dark Days" is about subterranean homeless people in NYC. A debate about the political statement of the film might be about politics, but a debate about cinematic techniques used to make that political point would be a film discussion.

If you get me.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
19:28 / 03.05.02
It's a bit of a silly example, because there probably wouldn't be very much discussion about hockey here, especially by those who don't play it. Perhaps you personally don't know very much about hockey, but with 950 members, there's probably some who do. Much like gaming; I think there was a huge reaction against gaming coming from folks who don't do it and don't understand why it might be interesting or important to some people, but it's clear there are a lot of members on the board who are into it. And even though I don't do it, I'm opposed to the notion that it's somehow anti-intellectual.

It's certainly not fear for me; on most boards I don't end up with a sense of attachment to the other persons posting. If I really wanted to discuss hockey, I'd go to a hockey board. If I really wanted to talk vegetarian politics, I'd go to a veggie board. But I'm not actually interested so much in these topics that I'd want to discuss them in such a closed environment. I'd rather discuss vegetarianism with people who are for and against (but who can all write well). And when discussing music, or film, I find it difficult to limit myself to discussion of its politics. I'm interested, sure, but I'm also interested in the technique of its production, or any other aspect of it. And I'd rather discuss this here, because here 90% of the conversation is of much higher quality than elsewhere on the Internet.

Perhaps it is laziness to want to kill all my birds with one stone in the discussion board department, but I've always seen Barbelith as more of a community than a message board for certain types of intellectual discussion. After all, there are Barbe-meets, so no-one can convince me it's not a community. I have an awful lot of interests and varying degrees of expertise in all of them. Why not discuss them all here? Why not pour all my energies into one board, where I can not only pay more attention to the quality of my posts (because there's actually more fear in posting here than elsewhere), but also get to know some like-minded people better?
 
 
Jack Fear
19:33 / 03.05.02
Betty: I was thinking more about viewing ostensibly apolitical films through a political lens, to uncover the politics that are expressed in the actual filmmaking techniques. Something on a par with Mason Lang's "Invisiblist" critique of Speed.

That's something we don't do as much as we used to, it seems.
 
 
betty woo
19:40 / 03.05.02
No, it's not. And I miss it a lot. Guess I'm just hoping that introducing a new topic of debate might also give rise to a revamped style of debate... *sigh* Help me, Daddy Jack. I seem to be coming over all nostalgic in my old age.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:53 / 03.05.02
Betty: Without turning this thread into yet another referendum on the proposed Gaming forum: I don't think anyone objects to the topic of games and gaming vis-a-vis the other aspects of the board—Zoom's approach of starting threads on various aspects of RPGs in the fora most closely related to those aspects seems a sensible one to me.

Where it all falls down, for me, is the demand for a separate forum for games, which will presumably cover those aspects of gaming which are not covered under the more theory- and process-oriented fora. And I would argue that those other aspects—including the sort of "war stories" and table-talk you alluded to in a previous post—are better addressed elsewhere on the Web.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
19:55 / 03.05.02
I don't know if it helps, but it is a tendency of Barbelith to discuss just about anything with at least a hint of politics. That's not really the point, though, I guess.

I tend to write about what I already know, and that's a precious little. I also very *rarely* spend more than twenty minutes on a post. After all, I could get caught 'slacking'. Do you think people are simply spending less time, creative energy, and synapses on posting?
 
 
Jack Fear
19:55 / 03.05.02
In other words: those aspects of games relevant to Barbelith can be addressed within the current strictures and structure of Barbelith.

Which is an entirely circular argument, now I look at it. Ah well.
 
 
Jack Fear
20:02 / 03.05.02
Sorry, the above was for Betty.

Wembley: I think everybody's a bit more comfortable now. Early Barbelith seemed pretty cruel and unforgiving: everybody seemed unbelievably smart, and you felt like you had to be too, or you'd get eaten alive. You had to be on your toes and put up a really smart front, or you credibility would be shot (or so each of us secretly feared).

As a result, there was a bit more intellectual bluster in those days. In retrospect, we were all trying a bit too hard to impress... but the atmosphere was electric.

Maybe I'm just old and jaded: or maybe we need that hint of danger to put the spice back into this marriage.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
20:13 / 03.05.02
I think that's a good call. There are a few people who are keeping the standard pretty high, after all. The balance has to come somewhere, I guess: honestly, if I have a university degree and an IQ of whateverever, I shouldn't feel too stupid to post here, but it's fair to ask me to work.

The 'hint of danger' has lately been from the opposite end of the spectrum, and that might be what's getting peoples' ears in a knot. (Pause for visual.) But good call.
 
 
Jack Fear
20:17 / 03.05.02
Mm. See above on anti-intellectualism, often expressed as "Where's your sense of humo(u)r?"
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
20:17 / 03.05.02
I'm always curious as to why I'm not the Barbelith rebel. It's the one thing no one's ever called me. Fascist (and 'facist'), Crypto-communist (or something), smart-ass, prevaricator. Never 'rebel' - always 'reactionary'.

Oh, I don't know...that bit on Free Speech and it's limits in the Western hemisphere in the Headshop you did a while ago rubbed quite a few people the wrong way, it seemed.

I wasn't here for the nexus days, but this place hasn't really been about revolution to me. I figured that most people here had read the Invisibles and picked up on it's "there is no enemy" vibe. That's probably not true now, as the board is huge compared to when I joined, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the majority haven't read the Invisibles and don't plan to. Which is cool, if that's their deal. Everyone at one point has said that Barbelith has long outgrown it's origins as a comic book inspired board.

But then agian, I've never been a rebel. What do I have to rebel against? My loving parents? My wealthy private school? The system that places me, as a white male between ages 18 and 45, on the top? Sure, they lied to me at times, and did their best to make me what they thought was the best kind of person without asking what I thought on the matter. But they meant well. I can't hate them (as much as I've tried before). I've long since realized that if I wanted, there would be nothing to rebel against. Sort of the zen way of liberation that admits there is nothing to liberate and nothing to liberate it from. And once I realized this, what's the point of rebeling? Rebel from what? From whom? Nothing can hold me unless I let it.

Frank Herbert once said "Inside every rebel leader is a closet aristocrat". I think that may apply to Barbelith at times.

Has barbelith changed the way I act in the Real World? Hard to say. I got into Barbelith the exact same time I got into magick and a whole bunch of other mind-bending literature other than the Invisibles. It all happened so fast, officer...

Anyway, I got more to say, but I have to leave for work now.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
20:55 / 03.05.02
I'd like to say that I feel bad that some folks think they're "not smart enough" to post on Barbelith. Or are made to feel that way. In my humble opinion, you don't need any set of credentials to offer your take on this or that - I think all you really need for serious debate here is a willingness to think critically (about your own post as well as the posts of others). I think just about everyone here is capable of doing that, and so yes, I guess I get a little disappointed when I see a lack of effort in this department (I am not sparing myself on this one btw).

I actually don't think gaming has anything to do with an increasingly anti-intellectualism vibe at the 'lith; I'm talking about such statements as "ooh look at me showing off my brains," "hoity toity intellectuals," and a cry for more "lowbrow" stuff here. At least with the first two, living with folks who make such comments to me on a relatively regular basis, it's been my experience that such comments come from people who are, yes, turned off by intellectual debate. I will give you that that is my personal experience, and yours may vary.

That said, well I certainly agree you can't be serious all the time, and everybody needs a break from theory bitching now and again, and in that regard the conversation certainly does a serve a purpose in terms of an attempt at a fun diversion. I would like to see a few more brain-using conversation threads, but I am well aware that those who make complaints should be prepared to do their part to fix the problem, at least around here. I am thinking about it, even if I haven't come up with a solution yet.

With a load of allegedly over 900 people, certainly things needs to change to serve the needs of a growing virtual community. Some things from "the good old days" surely will have to be lost, and some things will have to be changed, but I think this community still has plenty of potential to be and remain a vital, stimulating place to be.
 
  

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