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What have Pirates got to do with it?

 
  

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Saint Keggers
16:34 / 29.04.02
Hey! Im from Canada and I defintly side with the pirates. Ninja's are sooo yesterday..pirates are timeless. Like dinosaurs. Incidently a friend says both pirates and ninja's are insignificant when compared to the awesome power of the force...but he's been a bit wacky ever since I decimated his workplace.
 
 
Trijhaos
16:38 / 29.04.02
I'm from America. Sure, its a landlocked part of the states, but I still side with pirates.

ARRR!!!
 
 
Cherry Bomb
16:49 / 29.04.02
Plus Ninjas have Steven Seagal movies.

Whereas pirates have, among other movies, "Cabin Boy" starring Chris "Today I am a cabin boy but soon I will be a cabin man" Elliot.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:57 / 29.04.02
Hm. As I said, I'd rather not get too wrapped up in the reality. But in the interest of fairness, I feel compelled to observe that they had some redeeming features. Pirate Code here and whilst I can't vouch for its accuracy, it has a very familiar tone to some I've seen elsewhere.

Interestingly, there's a Pirate/TAZ connection.

It should also be said that many pirate ships were racially non-discriminatory long before any government had considered the idea.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:11 / 29.04.02
Had this argument in the pub this morning (yes, it leaked out into real life... is nowhere safe?)... someone said "yeah, but you should like ninjas, cos they toppled heads of states"...
"Yeah", I replied, "FOR OTHER HEADS OF STATE!" Then the grog took over, me pegleg gave out, and the parrot had to find the bus for me. Arrrrrrse.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
18:57 / 29.04.02
Be a pirate. Then you won't die wondering. Indulge your appetites, me hearties.

Ninjas are trapped, channelled, focussed. All that stick fighting and flying fists, exhausting. Practice, practice, practice. Relax, chill, partay...
 
 
grant
19:05 / 29.04.02
Answering the abstract, I think Ninjas had the early lead, and Barbelith loves an underdog. Especially a salty one.

On historical pirates, from "eco-action":
Many pirates displayed a fine sense of class consciousness; for example, a pirate named Captain Bellamy made this speech to the captain of a merchant vessel he had just taken as a prize. The captain of the merchant vessel had just declined an invitation to join the pirate crew:

“I am sorry they won’t let you have your Sloop again, for I scorn to do any one a Mischief, when it is not for my Advantage; damn the Sloop, we must sink her, and she might be of Use to you. Tho’, damn ye, you are a sneaking Puppy, and so are all those who will submit to be governed by Laws which rich Men have made for their own Security, for the cowardly Whelps have not the Courage otherwise to defend what they get by their Knavery; but damn ye altogether: Damn them for a Pack of crafty Rascals, and you, who serve them, for a Parcel of hen-hearted Numskuls. They villify us, the Scoundrels do, when there is only this Difference, they rob the Poor under the Cover of Law, forsooth, and we plunder the Rich under the Protection of our own Courage; had you not better make One of us, than sneak after the Arses of those Villains for Employment?”

When the captain replied that his conscience would not let him break the laws of God and man, the pirate Bellamy continued:

“You are a devilish Conscience Rascal, damn ye, I am a free Prince, and I have as much Authority to make War on the whole World, as he who has a hundred Sail of Ships at Sea, and an Army of 100,000 Men in the Field; and this my Conscience tells me; but there is no arguing with such sniveling Puppies, who allow Superiors to kick them about Deck at Pleasure.”


The whole article is full of stuff like that. I remember making the Bellamy speech into a T-shirt for a friend of mine in college.
 
 
grant
19:07 / 29.04.02
Here's more from the same article:
Having escaped the tyranny of discipline aboard merchant vessels the most striking thing about the organisation of pirate crews was their anti-authoritarian nature. Each crew functioned under the terms of written articles, agreed by the whole crew and signed by each member. The articles of Bartholomew Roberts’ crew begin:

“Every Man has a Vote in Affairs of Moment; has equal Title to the fresh Provisions, or strong Liquors, at any Time seized, and may use them at Pleasure, unless a Scarcity make it necessary, for the Good of all, to vote a Retrenchment.”(15)

Euro-American pirate crews really formed one community, with a common set of customs shared across the various ships. Liberty, Equality and Fraternity thrived at sea over a hundred years before the French Revolution. The authorities were often shocked by their libertarian tendencies; the Dutch Governor of Mauritius met a pirate crew and commented: “Every man had as much say as the captain and each man carried his own weapons in his blanket.” This was profoundly threatening to the order of European society, where firearms were restricted to the upper classes, and provided a stark contrast to merchant ships where anything that could be used as a weapon was kept under lock and key, and to the navy where the primary purpose of the marines stationed on naval vessels was to keep the sailors in their place.(16)

Pirate ships operated on a ‘No Prey, No Pay’ basis, but when a vessel was captured the booty was divided up by a share system. This sort of share system was common in mediaeval shipping, but had been phased out as shipping became a capitalist enterprise and sailors wage labourers. It still existed in privateering and whaling but pirates developed it into its most egalitarian form—there were no shares for owners or investors or merchants, there was no elaborate hierarchy of wage differentiation—everyone got an equal share of the booty and the captain usually only 1 or 1 1/2 share. The wreck of Sam Bellamy’s pirate ship the Whydah, which was discovered in 1984, provides good evidence of this—among the artefacts recovered was rare West African gold Akan jewellery which “had been hacked apart with clear knife marks, which suggested that there had been an attempt to divide it equally.”
 
 
bio k9
20:06 / 29.04.02
Plus Ninjas have Steven Seagal movies

What the fuck? Steven Seagal has nothing to do with the RealUltimatePower that Ninjas possess. Careful what you say, ninjas would cut off your tounge for far less.

And Giant robots suck. Not all Giant robots, just the ones geting their asses blown up by ninjas.
 
 
grant
20:32 / 29.04.02
More: gay marriage was a pirate invention...

Some of the early buccaneers of Hispaniola and Tortuga lived in a kind of homosexual union known as matelotage (from the French for ‘sailor’ and possibly the origin of the word ‘mate’ meaning companion), holding their possessions in common, with the survivor inheriting. Even after women joined the buccaneers, matelotage continued with a partner sharing his wife with his matelot. Louis Le Golif in his Memoirs of a Buccaneer complained about homosexuality on Tortuga, where he had to fight two duels to keep ardent suitors at bay.
 
 
Grendix
02:41 / 30.04.02
I remember in an old DC comic called AMBUSH BUG there was a character called ARRGH AISLE... he was a Pirate from the Universe of Missing Left Socks... an argyle sock w/ an eyebatch who talked all piratey.
I still randomly quote him from time to time.
Famous Ninja quotes?: *slice* (now you're dead)
oh, now THAT's clever.
PS... girls go for flashy types that can kick the shit outta nancy-boys in black pajamas. (well, again, I blame both my brother and Errol Flynn, sepcifically)

anyway.. I'm pro-pirate.
ans PS... Cholister... that's too cool that you've read the LIVESHIP books. I got hooked on them like 3 years ago by a friend. Have you read the FARSEER trilogy as well? so well written.
anyway, enough threat rot...
1 vote pirates
0 vote ninjas
 
 
Cop Killer
05:16 / 30.04.02
I doubt that ninjas never have fun, we don't know, they wear those cool sleak ninja costume things, which are much more aesthetically pleasing than pirate gawdiness. I bet ninjas are party animals. But really, samuris are cooler than both, not only are they highly trained, but they also get swords and geishas.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
06:23 / 30.04.02
"a parcel of hen-hearted Numskuls"...
I LOVE that.
Pirates get all the best lines.
 
 
The Monkey
07:11 / 30.04.02
Historical ninjas were basically the world's first professional espionage agency. Assassination was actually the smallest aspect of their gig. Information gathering and theft were their specialty; they were hired by daimyo (only the Emperor was permitted to keep full-time ninja in his service) to obtain strategically valuable information and to engage in unsavory activities that the bushido code would not permit them to do openly [kidnapping, blackmail, theft].

Mythical - up and to this day - ninjas are trickster figures. In Japan since the Edokka, ninja have been folk heroes seen as a point of opposition to the [potential] tyranny of the samurai class, in a similar vein to the Suikoden. In modern consumption, they embody the ultimate in stealth and self-control, as well as martial prowess, and are oddly enough often confabulated with elements of samurai culture. They thus embody a mass of contradiction and a locus for wish-fulfilment constructs revolving around, so to speak, the perfection of violence and the social aura/power provided by that.

Historical pirates were little more than normal sailors, and often began their career in piracy operating under the aegis of some national affiliation - such as Francis Drake or Captain Kidd. The reality of pirate life was largely the tight order and grinding routine of ship maintenance. The nation-unaffiliated freebooters of the Caribbean led an incredibly tenuous life oscillating between the threat of starvation during prolonged journeying and destruction at the hands of a patrolling navy.

Where ninja embody control in mythology and folklore, pirates have been painted as figures embodying a sort of ultimate freedom, existing beyond pale of economic and moral limits. The awe inspired by figures like Blackbeard lies in their image as individuals [seen as] capable of anything at any moment. Atop the Hotspur/Boy's-Own-Adventure aspect of free travel and exploration of the unknown/uncertain, the inidividual pirate is seen as adrift in possibility and free of social constraints. Hence the contrasting image of open/emotive/passionate Errol Flynn contrasted with closed/constrained/cold British Naval officers....

I'd say Barbelith has both pirate and ninja aspects, and while the anarchic/pirate aspect is more vocal, both archetypes strike a chord with the general revolutionary/rebellious vibe of the board.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:15 / 30.04.02
Cholister, Grendix - did you know Robin Hobb was also Megan Lindholm? And Cholister...not so sure about the Pirate King as a partner in the sack...he's specifically described as utterly selfish and requiring a coupling void of emotion and interaction, if I remember. Still, he was also gorgeous, I suppose, and driven.

All:

Where are you guys getting this pirate/ninja data? It's great, I'd love some links to add to my collection...
 
 
mondo a-go-go
10:51 / 30.04.02
are there any renowned FEMALE ninjas?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:11 / 30.04.02
Female Ninjas are usually too good at being ninjas to be renowned. There are excellent ninjas, and there are famous ninjas, but there are no excellent, famous ninjas...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
11:23 / 30.04.02
... girls go for flashy types that can kick the shit outta nancy-boys in black pajamas. (well, again, I blame both my brother and Errol Flynn, sepcifically)

Women don't "go for" pirates, they get raped and murdered by them.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
11:26 / 30.04.02
And the difference between that and the act of a hired killer would be what, exactly? Or are all ninjas outfitted with cotton-candy katanas now? Are ninjas the new Teletubbies? Bringing joy to the land with their martial huggles?

I think not.
 
 
that
12:40 / 30.04.02
[threadrot]
Grendix: Here's where me and Trijhaos and basically no one else for reasons I still cannot fathom, rave about the genius that is Robin Hobb. Yep - I adore the Farseer Trilogy. I actually vastly prefer it even to the Liveship trilogy (that thread I linked has spoilers for the sequel to the Farseer trilogy, 'Fool's Errand', but it kind of turns into a generalised Robin Hobb love-in).

Maybe some of you people will bloody read Robin Hobb, now you know she's got pirates? Lots of pirates.

Nick: Yep, I knew about Megan Lindholm being Robin Hobb - not nearly so keen on her Lindholm stuff though. And, re. Kennit - I know, I know...but what can I say? I find the tortured soul type irresistible.

[/threadrot]
 
 
QUINT
13:41 / 30.04.02
Pirate knows sharks, but he ain't one of 'em. Sees 'em, feeds 'em, hates 'em. Shark knows Pirate. Follows his boat sometimes, looking to get fed. Sometimes eats a Pirate. Shark don't care, he just eatin'.

Ninja's like a shark. Ninja don't care for much of anything 'cept killing and that ole real ultimate power he's got down in his belly. He's just walkin' along, maybe kills you, maybe he don't, don't make no difference to him. Shark got no idea 'bout a ninja, ninja knows to avoid him. Ninja in the water, he's shark food, so he don't go in the water. Shark on dry land, he's soup. Neither one cares.

Pirate's a man. Ninja's something else. Shark's just what he is.
 
 
that
13:43 / 30.04.02
What about sea serpents?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
14:09 / 30.04.02
Won't somebody think of the kraken?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:16 / 30.04.02
But why? He's fine down there, battening upon huge seaworns in his sleep. I don't think we need to concern ourselves too much with kraken safety here.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:23 / 30.04.02
I prefer highwaymen myself, anyway...
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
14:31 / 30.04.02
What about kraken-headed highwaymen?
 
 
The Monkey
14:35 / 30.04.02
head like a squid? that would be Mordant...I had no idea she was a highwayman.
(Would be a good way to fund grad school, I must admit....)
 
 
mondo a-go-go
14:36 / 30.04.02
I prefer highwaymen myself, anyway...

me too
 
 
grant
14:51 / 30.04.02
Kooky: are there any renowned FEMALE ninjas?

Read the other ninja thread. They're called "kuonichi" or something like that. I link to a couple pages on 'em.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:56 / 30.04.02
Yuh huh
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:26 / 30.04.02
Highwaymen were pretty cool; better-dressed than pirates, with big horses and twinkling pistol-butts, they kicked a serious amount of rich bastard arse. However, a Ninja would win a fight out of a Ninja and a highwayman.

(And yes, there were highwaywomen, nyahnyahnyah.)
 
 
Trijhaos
20:05 / 30.04.02
Highwaymen were just pirates without ships.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
20:17 / 30.04.02
Highwaymen had parrots? Cool.
 
 
Trijhaos
20:21 / 30.04.02
Well kind of. You see, when the pirates lost their ships and became highwaymen, they realized there was a problem. Their bright green parrots would give them away. So they did the only thing they could. Killed a bunch of hawks, skinned them, and gave the parrots hawk-skin coats.
 
 
that
20:59 / 30.04.02
That's sick. I don't like highwaymen anymore. And anyway, 'Plunkett and Maclean' was a shit film.
 
  

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