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Where is the colour in our lives?

 
  

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Horus lord of force and fire
22:25 / 31.03.02
Are there many coloured people posting on Barbelith?

And if not why not?
 
 
Trijhaos
23:30 / 31.03.02
Does color matter?

I mean if I said I was black would you treat my posts differently, than if I said I was white, or vice-versa?

Color shouldn't matter in a virtual environment like this one.

Hell, I could care less if everybody here was green with purple polka dots.

Asking about color is like asking about why more women don't post on Barbelith. I'm pretty sure the women are in the minority here.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:50 / 31.03.02
I'm torn on this one. In the first instance, because the original question was probably better suited to the Conversation than the Head Shop. However, Trijhaos seems to have added another level of complexity with, first, "color shouldn't matter in a virtual environment like this one".

Is this the case? Or is it an unreflexive shorthand for the assumption that everybody will be treated as if, and thus expected to be, in line ethnically and thus culturally with the dominant order of Barbelith, which is probably white, male and comparatively well-off.

And then, "Asking about color is like asking why more women don't post on Barbelith."

Which is after a fashion very true. The question being, are either of these questions invalid? Should "why are there not more women/people of colour on Barbelith?" be considered, or should issues of race and gender be elided completely as we are given the chance to do so by separation from the phenotype of our interlocutors?
 
 
Dao Jones
08:11 / 01.04.02
"Coloured"?
 
 
Sax
08:56 / 01.04.02
You know. By disillusionment, things like that.
 
 
Logos
10:08 / 01.04.02
"It's never easy, being green."
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:10 / 01.04.02
Dao raises a very good question, one of terminologies. "Coloured" for me is always associated with the legal classicfications of "blackness" in South Africa, and is not a term I would be comfortable using. But what about "people of colour"? Is all this terminology intrinsically disempowering? And would one use "people of color" to describe any "non-white" person, or only people of African/African-American/Afro-Caribbean descent? Bearing in mind particularly that these are three terminologies used to describe a truly massive variation in genotype, culture, language and all sorts of other things.
 
 
deja_vroom
11:39 / 01.04.02
What I find amusing in this is the way that a supposedly "non-relevant issue" becomes one by sheer force of trijhaos' (in this case) egalitarian libel.

Reminds me of the Oscar ceremony, where whenever the racial topic would come up, they would rush the cameras to show the black people, like saying: "this is NOT AN ISSUE. We´re comfortable with that, so DONT'T MAKE AN ISSUE of this topic. Because as anyone can see, it's NOT AN ISSUE. Etc".

To me this seems to be a question raised from mere curiosity, most commonly detected in people new to an online environment.
Some people are just curious.
 
 
Sax
11:53 / 01.04.02
I'm not sure. The way the original question was posed... "if not, why not?" seems to suggest that Barbelith is intrinsically a white-bread kind of place, which is something that's never occurred to me. I wouldn't have a clue what "colour" most posters are; unless it becomes an issue in a thread it never really occurs to me.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:02 / 01.04.02
And if this is pure curiosity, Jade, we will move the question to the Conversation. While it is in the Head Shop, maybe we should try to make some sort of discussion out of it.
 
 
deja_vroom
12:29 / 01.04.02
So, Horus, what do you think? Did you think about your question as "regular fluff thread" or meant it to be discussion engaging?
 
 
alas
12:45 / 01.04.02
I hope we can frame a discussion of this here, and possibly in Conversation. Ethnicity matters in our world; real skin colors, not the "green, purple" etc ones, but real skin colors, make a difference every day to all people. People recognized as white by other folk often don't notice the silent privileges we're given simply by virtue of our skin color. The assumption that we are not "violent" or "noisy" or likely to be poor--all of which makes a difference when you are hailing a cab, or being noticed wearing a trench coat by a security guard in the local big box retail outlet.

The experience of living in an unprivileged position regarding your ethnicity shapes one's perspective, and that would make a difference on this board. I know for a fact that there's at least one person of Asian descent on the board and I think there's at least one person who has made explicit his Latino roots. But I also suspect this space is pretty white, and I'm interested in that fact. The only way to make a space nonwhite is to take an active stance against racism... and I'm not sure how a virtual community like this does that, or if it does that.

alas.
 
 
Sax
13:19 / 01.04.02
If it is predominantly white, maybe that's because it started off as a comics-related board. In my experience (which is limited, grant you), most people I see hanging around comic shops are white.
 
 
Horus lord of force and fire
13:22 / 01.04.02
I'm interested in how Barbelith operates and how this affects the colour of the skin of the people that vote here - How inclusive a society are we?

'Inter-racialism and accidental exclusion'

Discuss
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
13:24 / 01.04.02
I'm interested in how Barbelith operates and how this affects the colour of the skin of the people that vote here.

I've developed quite a nice tan since I started posting here. A lot of which can be attributed to the brightness of the new barbelith.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:32 / 01.04.02
Well, the abstract of this thread is set as "inter-taciality (sic) and accidental exclusion", so...

First up , I would suggest that exclusion of non-white - what - ideas? persprectives? self-expressions? voices? - from Barbelith could be argued not to be accidental in the sense of a piece of pure coincidence. One could however construct a case for barbelith as exclusionary space through the channels it follows, which is "accidental" insofar as it only follows rather than constructs discriminatory models.

So, for example, one of the immediate things that define Barbelith is that it is pretty much entirely in English, the first language of nations largely owned and run by white people (see the paragraph below for Anglophone post-imperial nations). Now, there are a fair few Portugese speakers on Barbelith, for starters, who choose to communicate in English as a concession to the fact that most of their respondents will expect to be able to do so in English. What happens if the Portugese-speaking contingent decide to start threads in Portugese? Is this exclusionary, or a necessary balancing act and a reproach to the linguistic imperialism of the main board?

Plus, Barbelith is an Internet board. This in itself counts out a fairly large chunk of the population of the globe, who do not have access to an Internet connection *at all*, and then again penalises people who have access to the Internet but whose access is problematised - for example, a squatter who one one level is living the Barbelith dream but as a result of this has to depend on either friends or commercial outlets for access. It is one on level an "accident" that most of the parts of the world without Internet proliferation happen not to have majority white populations. On many other levels, it is not "accidental" at all. As it happens, I believe at present it also means that the readership is more likely to be male than female as well, and more likely to be employed than unemployed, kai ta loipa.

And, of course, Alas is absolutely right that it is much easier to say "I don't care if peopel are white or black or sky-blue pink" if one is not getting followed around by storeowners. What impact this has on Barbelith, where judgements based on skin colour are at least complicated, is open to discussion.

Note that I say "complicated" rather than "impossible" there. Because, just as in the "real" world, there are levels of ambiguity - see the Oscars thread debating whether Haille Berry is "black enough" to be counted as a "black Oscar winner" (for. fuck's. sake). Certainly at least one Barbeloid has spoken of the experience of being of ambiguous appearance.

Applying that to Barbelith, one can perhaps start to identify textual codes based along lines of ethnicity, whether that ethinicity is a purely textual response or one "reaching through the screen" and making decisions about the ethnicity and tus the behaviour of a member.

F'r example, a poster (and please correct me if I misquote) commented after Lyra had dismnissed Belle and Sebastien that it was amazing that he could hear any music over the sound of "the enormous axe you are constantly grinding against Whitey". The point being that Lyra's championing of disco and hip-hop (historically "black" forms), and dismmissiveness of indie (historically "white" form, although all of these categorisations are in themselves highly questionable), identified hir for that poster as "black", either textually or genetically. A judgement was made on the grounds of what "black people" do or do not like listening to, and that choice of music politicised (Lyra being acused of not giving "white" musical forms a fair crack of the whip, in effect).

Thoughts?
 
 
Bill Posters
14:51 / 01.04.02
What does kai ta loipa mean?
 
 
Utopia
16:42 / 01.04.02
there are only two types of people on barbelith: light gray and dark gray.

wasn't that fucking witty?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:09 / 01.04.02
Very witty, utterly pointless. This isn't the Conversation.

Bill - "and whatever is left".
 
 
Persephone
17:21 / 01.04.02
should issues of race and gender be elided completely as we are given the chance to do so by separation from the phenotype of our interlocutors

A question is, are race and gender only phenotype-deep? And I'm not saying that the answer's obvious. I will say that my gender and my nationality were right on the surface from the moment I started posting; but it was months and months before I even noticed myself that my ethnicity was not shining through my posts, as it were. And probably another month of two of being conscious of that & not doing anything about it.

whether Haille Berry is "black enough" to be counted as a "black Oscar winner" (for. fuck's. sake)

Maybe off topic, but why for fuck's sake? I see colorism as a real entity in the racist sweepstakes... separate thread, I suppose.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:28 / 01.04.02
The "for fuck's sake" in this instance was because I had failed to understand that questions of racial identity are dealt with by a committee of white boys on the Internet. Having digested this fairly simple fact, I am much more at ease with the world.

The same thread also featured description of Jennifer Connelly as "a man in drag". She is still calling me up in tears every evening about this.
 
 
Tom Coates
18:10 / 01.04.02
It's a strange thread this one - the first post is clearly a Conversation area post, then we go a little Head Shoppy, with a dash of Policy (debating the space of Barbelith itself and how to make it more inclusive) and a dollop of Laboratory (cyberculture and ethnicity). For the most part I'm quite enjoying this collision - although I think it's affecting our tone a little.

Haus' commentary is of extraordinarily high quality so I won't even think about a retread, but there are some very interesting questions here... The first question is one of 'representation'. Barbelith has been until very recently self-selecting - it's a community that has chosen it's audience - there's always been the potential for more men or women or gay people or straight people or black, white, asian (etc) people to join and so the question of 'why are there not more ....' is going to be cutting down all the way to issues of the culture of the board - and how interesting / stimulating / engaging / relevant it will be to any and or all of these people...

But before we go further in this direction, let's just remind everyone that to a large extent we simply don't HAVE this information and I don't know that I'd never ask anyone to volunteer such information unless they should feel the need personally to do so. So while we might all have our suspicions that the site is generally going to be used by white, male, middle-class, relatively well-educated individuals generally between 18 and 40, it's not really going to be possible to quantify it at the moment.

The issue of relevance IS interesting though. Are virtual presences genderless? race-less? bereft of sexual identity? Well clearly only as much as people are prepared to excise those aspects of the interactions with one another from the board. On the board we may exist as fictional entities, born out of text, but that's not really any less true in everyday life - the only difference is that there is more flexibility to attempt a different self-depiction online... Which I'm sure all of us have done at various times...

But at some level, this misses the point completely - if I can speak as a gay man - if that MEANS anything, particularly in an online space - it is speaking as an online presence who is prepared to ally himself to a set of ideologies (to a greater or lesser extent) conveying gender and sexuality... My need to self-reveal this and discuss it is precisely BECAUSE of my presence as NON-orthodox. I infrequently feel the need to discuss my race, although perhaps I should, because I am lucky enough for it to mostly not be an issue. Similarly my "class" - amorphous as it is - isn't necessarily an issue either for me.

So the only times that my gay identity appears to be relevant is when I am forced to foreground it in debates which speak to me directly. This probably shouldn't be the case - which is why a board with a good diversity of gender / political / sexual / racial identities would probably stimulate the most self-reinscribing discussion and challenge the most preconceptions.

Hmmm. I'm lost, I have to confess. I have many unfocused thoughts about this issue which I can't bring to brook. I remain interested in everyone else's thoughts...
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
18:41 / 01.04.02
One of the things that attracts me to the internet in terms of a social aspect is that, when away from such segments that are geared towards being identity specific, for the most part, an absence of the usual social judgements.

It may well be that this is in some manner related to presentation of person being primarily of the nature of text which is often, much like this site, of a regulated form.

In my opinion, to whatever worth you are willing to ascribe, the usual demographics become inapplicable when online in favour of a new set of demographics and even then prejudice is often replaced with respect. The new demographics being defined loosely along the lines of technical capacity, technical direction, interactivity levels, communicability and geekiness(for want of a far, far better term). The same practices being somewhat present here at barbelith.

As far as race is concerned, or even any other means of identification, I feel comfortable in saying that, while representation not being nessecary here, there is presence at a level that matches overall general accessibility with a handful of cultural sways taken into consideration.

I hope that this makes some sense.
 
 
Horus lord of force and fire
19:45 / 01.04.02
Yeah and think how much more interesting it could be, if we had different Cultures and ways of life represented here: A soldier from Afghanistan, a black person from Compton, a person from South Africa, a student from Vietnam. How can we break down the language barrier?

And don't dis Jennifer Connoley.

She's.
My.
Ex.
Girl.
Friend!

"A question is, are race and gender only phenotype-deep? And I'm not saying that the answer's obvious. I will say that my gender and my nationality were right on the surface from the moment I started posting; but it was months and months before I even noticed myself that my ethnicity was not shining through my posts, as it were. And probably another month of two of being conscious of that & not doing anything about it"

Persephone, what does this mean?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:06 / 01.04.02
Well, an obvious example would be a transsexual: a person who is chromosomally of one gender may identify with another. Race is a rather more complex issue, but there are similarities in the sense of a nature-versus-nature debate, because one's ethnicity is often bound up with certain cultural values. (Do I have it right, Persephone?)
 
 
Mystery Gypt
21:24 / 01.04.02
"color shouldn't matter" is a sentiment that you will only find coming from white people. it means, color shouldn't matter anymore, now that we are hoping to be forgiven for having made it matter in the first place.

one can argue that white people created color through colonization and slavery. what was once arbitraryhas become, through history, something of larger significance.

it's easy to say you wouldn't care that i'm pink polka dotted simply because this is an impossibilty. it's a pretty ofensive comment, actually, because it assumes that colors don't have a history, that someone is just randomly black or white and this has no bearing on the way that their life and their signification will play out. it is a common fallacy among white people to believe that race is only arbitrary. the implication behind it is that whiteness itself is not a race, a clarity and state of mind from which the confusion of races could all be solved if people "just got along." well it's too fucking late for wishful thinking, and the future is only going to be harmonious when people stop pretending the past didn't happen. online or offline, race determines a tremendous amount of a person's point of view and life experience and to pretend otherwise is an ignorant form of white liberal fascism.

these "new demographics" heterodox talks about have more to do with the kind of "micro-demographics" that are available when people are for the most part the same thing. i'll bet if there was a massive influx of a completely different cultural value / demographic onto barbelith we'd slam the door harder than we have in the past. while it would be great to hear the internet point of view from a "soldier in afghanistan" there are cultural blocks in place that would make this impossible. the expectation that people would show up on this board who have been racially opressed by the kind of world most represented by the barbelith-culture and "play nice" is another white liberal fantasy, the sort that obscures the actual points of views that might exist in the world.
 
 
Persephone
01:13 / 02.04.02
Mordant: basically yes, although I don't know that gender/sexuality issues are any less complex than race/ethnicity issues. Certainly the former are less complex for me (though it certainly livens things up to greet husband at the door with "Tom started a thread today on Barbelith about marriage & now I think that we never should have gotten married.")

But to trace over what I wrote before, Haus suggested (not espoused) that since our phenotypes --our physical features-- are not displayed in cyberspace, then perhaps this makes race not an issue here. What I questioned was whether race is only a physical characteristic, which I'd instinctively say isn't the case. But to undercut my own argument and perhaps to get at some truth of the matter, I threw in the datum that ethnicity left to its own devices wasn't coming out as a textual characteristic for me --but nationality was expressing itself as clear as a bell.

What does this mean to the subject of this thread? Maybe there are more people of color on this board than you think? When I finally realized that I wasn't coming across as "ethnic," which IRL I've no choice about, I actually enjoyed it for a while & held it back. Maybe race and ethnicity exclusion here mostly happens where there's an intersection with class exclusion?
 
 
Sax
03:25 / 02.04.02
Mystery Gypt said:

" it's easy to say you wouldn't care that i'm pink polka dotted simply because this is an
impossibilty. it's a pretty ofensive comment, actually, because it assumes that colors don't
have a history, that someone is just randomly black or white and this has no bearing on the
way that their life and their signification will play out."

Isn't it just a tad unfair to barrack people for genuinely not taking ethnicity into account when involved in internet bulletin board discussions which have no obvious or surface necessity to have ethnicity/race/colour/creed made a defining issue? To brand anyone who makes the admittedly pat comment "I don't care what colour you are" as some kind of white bleeding heart liberal trying to paper over the cracks of hundreds of years of downright outrageous behaviour to other people on the planet is, to my mind, smacking the wrong people about the head.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
04:02 / 02.04.02
well, if that particular world-view is itself a "white" world-view -- which i'm positing it is, then it is a world-view that exists in both real life and online. if it is also a possible core world-view of barbelith as a whole, this would suggest barbelith is for the most part a "white world-view" having board. and we would as a whole need to be very careful to note this and take it into consideration before further embarking on a discussion of how open or race free we might think we are.

from the very fact that this issue is being debated, i think it's clear that race doesn't have anything to do with phenotype; it has to do with specific treatments, historical contexts, laws, social interrelations, and oppressions based on accidents arbitrarily connected to phenotype. for us to believe that "if you take away the phenotype, through online invisibility, you take away the race issue" is the core mistake that well-meaning whiteness has made throughout the past century.

the apparent lack of online race shows us the lie rather than creating the utopia.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
11:14 / 02.04.02
"the expectation that people would show up on this board who have been racially opressed by the kind of world most represented by the barbelith-culture and "play nice" is another white liberal fantasy"

Probably one of the most depressing/annoying realities that to an inescapable extent is a detraction from this board and sadly one that we are near powerless to remedy.
 
 
sleazenation
11:19 / 02.04.02
it does beg the question "what is barbe culture" and "is barbe culture different to mainstream culture" though doesn't it...
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
11:25 / 02.04.02
A quick answer would be that the barbelith culture is to a limited extent a mean combinative effect of all of the cultural and sub-cultural characteristics of the active posters here and thus a changing and maleable entity of itself.

It is different from commonly perceived mainstream culture (if that is indeed definable) but not nessecarily on the levels that one might anticipate.

Better answers will come from other posters.
 
 
Ierne
13:02 / 02.04.02
it is a common fallacy among white people to believe that race is only arbitrary. the implication behind it is that whiteness itself is not a race, a clarity and state of mind from which the confusion of races could all be solved if people "just got along." well it's too fucking late for wishful thinking, and the future is only going to be harmonious when people stop pretending the past didn't happen. online or offline, race determines a tremendous amount of a person's point of view and life experience and to pretend otherwise is an ignorant form of white liberal fascism. – Mystery Gypt

At some point we need to stop waiting for Whitey, stop worrying about what Whitey thinks or doesn't think and start being ourselves. Who we are as *people* is very different as how we are perceived as *nonwhite* people.

Speaking for myself, I find the ability to post as Ierne without being percieved as a specific race or color rather freeing. As for whether or not I am "perceived" as white or "pretending to be" white – who cares? I'm more concerned with being me.

i'll bet if there was a massive influx of a completely different cultural value / demographic onto barbelith we'd slam the door harder than we have in the past. – Mystery Gypt

I disagree– I think there would be a genuine interest in this "massive influx," who they were, how they lived, and what their interests were. It would be more likely to enrich the board immensely.

In fact, I'm not that convinced that this bulletin board consists mostly of rich white college graduates. The diverse range of personality and experience seen and posted here argues against that.
 
 
Sax
13:09 / 02.04.02
Christ, I wish I was a rich white college graduate.
 
 
Sax
13:20 / 02.04.02
Meaning, I wish I was rich and a college graduate, not that a white rich college graduate is the ultimate ambition in life. In fact, I'm not that bothered about being a college graduate. Or even rich, really.

Oh, for self-editing.
 
  

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