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Neon Genesis Evangelion (Possible Spoilers)

 
  

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Tim Tempest
00:49 / 12.09.06
I'm secretly watching (from the beginning) all of the Neon Genesis Evangelion episodes...And you can too.

Shhhh.....
 
 
uncle retrospective
05:45 / 12.09.06
Thanks for the FAQ! God I missed a load of stuff.
 
 
Sylvia
15:14 / 12.09.06
Thanks for the FAQ!

You're welcome. I usually post it whenever I see a long enough EVA discussion because...well, it's just so useful. (There's also a Boogiepop Phantom FAQ written in the same veing here. I read it two years after seeing the series and realized I had NO IDEA who was who anymore. Must re-watch the show. My friends and I tried to keep track of what was happening and we were terrible at it. I realize this is hardly an endorsement but we had a lot of fun watching it)

God I missed a load of stuff.

You and me both. One thing in particular that I didn't realize before a friend who's very into Evangelion pointed it out: (MAJOR spoilers including the End of Eva movie: )















(Enormous spoilers, I'm serious, come back and read it later if you haven't seen the show AND the movie!)

























Is that they have the technology to transfer souls from one thing to another. My initial impression was that Rei could be recloned with the same memories because she was a special case, and that 01's live, angel-cloned tissue had sort of "sucked" Mrs. Ikaru's mind into itself. It left me wondering how they got Asuka's mother's soul into Asuka's EVA. The idea that they could transfer her essence into it makes more sense, although that made me wonder if she commited suicide AFTER her soul was shunted into the giant mech. (Brr)

In retrospect, the fact they've developed a way to save and transfer a soul into a different "container" seems so obvious. They almost come out and say it when Misako mentions they have the ability to track Shinji's ego and intellect even when his body's reduced to goop in the EVA's cockpit. EVA also hints at it with two other things. They do it with Rei, transfering her consciousness from one body to another although there's some memory loss, and they can obviously do the same with the EVAs since each EVA has a soul.

I kind of like the idea of it being an actual science they've developed instead of something magic. It raises more philosophical questions by being in a soft sci-fi setting instead of a fantasy one, in my opinion, because there's still no proof of an afterlife or some sort of deity to explain what's going on. Makes it creepier.



























(End spoilers)
 
 
Bandini
06:56 / 06.08.07
I can't believe how ridiculous and great this is: EVA DANCE!

Particularly aimed at my good friend Seth. The biggest NGE fan i know.
Hope you enjoy!
 
 
uncle retrospective
10:55 / 06.08.07
Oh. My. God.
 
 
Triplets
18:04 / 06.08.07
That is just so best. For those who don't know what the fuck is going on in that video - I didn't, apart from The Awesome - be looking here
 
 
Seth
21:21 / 06.08.07
Eva 1 as Haruhi is just perfect. Always a pleasure to see The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya closing credits too. Reckon you'd love that show bandini.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
04:31 / 09.08.07
One thing: do NOT get dubs. Get subtitles. The dubbed version is appaling.

Firstly apologies for posting as I haven't read most of the thread as I've just started watching a dubbed version of the show, but I wanted to ask for some more detail on why the dubbed version is so bad.

I've noticed how dreadful much of the voice acting is of course, but I can deal with that. What would be more of a problem would be if the translation is really bad and if the meaning of scenes has been lost due to such, so could someone who knows let me know whether this is the case?
 
 
This Sunday
04:43 / 09.08.07
Some of the mistranslations of the dub have actually been corrected, but they were there and some were kinda stupid.

The actual voices and acting varies. For its time it was an astonishingly good dub. Not Good, the Bad, and the Ugly good, but compared to the average? Live action or animated? Really superior in many ways. Shinji's voice actor may just annoy the heck out of me, but I'm quite in love with Sue Ulu's delivery.

The fact that most of the dialogue was not being recorded together, but one person at a time makes several key moments too stagey for most tastes, the sound effects are not nearly as good (original Japanese has some of my favorite sound effects, ever and anywhere), and the reusing of background voices can get annoying when they aren't even trying to disguise or alter their speaking voice.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
05:06 / 09.08.07
The fact that Asuka's voice actress plainly sounds like a woman in her thirties doesn't help especially. And by favouring the dub you miss out on some of Japan's best voice actors such as Megumi Hayashibara (Rei/Paprika/everything ever), Kotono Mitsuishi (Misato/Sailor Moon/Excel Excel) and Fumihiko Tachiki (Gendo/Bleach's terrifying Zaraki Kenpachi).
 
 
Seth
05:30 / 09.08.07
I'm never seen the entire series dubbed, as the moment I accidentally played an English language version I shrieked "ABOMINATION!" and never went back there again. My advice is to compare the two and then ask yourself if there really is a decision to make.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
05:47 / 09.08.07
Thanks for the advice. The thing is I have dubs right now, and I don't have a subtitled version. I think I will get hold of a subtitled version and compare, but I have no patience and I want to watch the show right now, so I suspect I'll finish watching the dubbed version first. Also philostine that I am I've only started getting into anime in the last few days, and I think I need to take a few baby steps before I dive into subtitled stuff.
 
 
This Sunday
06:15 / 09.08.07
Again, as dubs go, it's actually pretty good.

(We should have a 'best/worst dubs' thread somewhere, so I can big up the Riding Bean and 801 TTS Airbats dubs, and complain about what happened with Harlock Saga or the nineties' Mothra versus Godzilla.)

Watching it dubbed the first time helps, too, I think, to let you relax and look at the other stuff onscreen, catch the little visual cues to things you might miss if you're totally concentrating on the subtitles.

Is your dub copy the old VHS edition from ADV? Because then you have the added pain of - aside from not having the newer inserted scenes and redone footage - a few small edits and censorship moments. If it's the dub copied off the DVDs, that shouldn't be an issue.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
07:47 / 09.08.07
In fairness I should say that the dub is okay in parts; Ritsuko, Kensuke and the NERV HQ trio are pretty good. It's how I first watched the show on the Sci-Fi Channel all those years ago, and then as now the show itself is pure gold and can survive any amount of wildly variable voice acting. If you ever make it to the movie, you'll find that the dub producers had realised by that point what a vital show they were working on and so the acting and production is as good as it gets for ADV productions.
 
 
Bandini
08:35 / 09.08.07
I'm quite surprised this is still a point of discussion amongst those that watch films and television series from other countries in other languages.

I first started watching subtitled films when i was quite young as my dad is a fan of Kurosawa and a saw quite a few with him. I watch a lot of foreign language films, certainly more than i watch english language films.

I've never really watched many dubbed films or series and i've never really seen the point.

Unless you're really really bad at reading then watching a subtitled film or series should not present any problem to you.

This is the way it was made and these were the voices used.

I find people seem to view Anime slightly differently as it was not synced sound to start with. "It's a dub to start with".

But, the original language is crucial to the cultural specificity of the piece and the choice of actors and delivery is mostly determined by the creative influence of the piece (usually the director).

Dubs are made by a company that has bought the rights to distribution in a different country. They are not necessarily as caring about the quality of the 'product' they manafacture as the person who perhaps put their heart and soul into the piece. Some of those dubbing these series are random people who answered an add offering minimum wage to dub something. They are not even actors.

Basically, I don't think there is even an arguement to be had, subtitles are clearly better and if they are available for the film or series you want to see then get the subtitled version.

Why not?

I may be perhaps described as a snob or a film facist or something like that but frankly i have lost patience with the overiding opinion that subtitles are annoying when dubs are just worse.
 
 
Ron Stoppable
08:55 / 09.08.07
Bandini, I absolutely take your point that with most things, subtitles are clearly the way to go. Rather than a hinderance, I take the view that the subtitles are there to do us a favour; to let us in on the world we're observing, not to compromise that world by panel-beating it to fit within our comfort zone.

However, I think some anime gets a pass because of the quality of the voice dubs and Evangelion is a great example of this - the movies especially but the series, too. I don't think it loses anything by being dubbed where Akira, say, definitely benefits from the subtitle treatment. It's possible that Evangelion is the exception that proves the rule, though.
 
 
---
10:11 / 09.08.07
I just went through this over the last couple of days, and have to say that even though I loved a lot of it, I didn't like it nearly as much as I thought I would. It had moments of greatness for sure, but the parts that got in the way for me included the main hidden plots in the story taking too long to unfold, (I only sat up and thought the story was really beginning about halfway through.) and the Angels. Nearly every one of the Angels seemed too faceless, void of character, and lasted such a short time for me to really get interested. The utter coldness of Gendo Ikari towards his own son really frustrated me too.

It does have a lot of great moments in it though, and I can see how it's been so influential. Oh and Pen Pen was brilliant. I don't know...maybe it was that friction between the good guys and the bad guys that I couldn't find very much, because the bad guys rarely had time onscreen, or their own voice.
 
 
This Sunday
10:18 / 09.08.07
It's not really about good vs bad guys though, is it? Or fighting the angels. Or being an Eva pilot/good worker bee.

Shinji's is own antagonist. Same can be said for the rest of the cast. The angels are, if anything, an outward sign of the futile attempts at attacking and at mission-based, goal-oriented existence that plague the emotionally broken cast.

And there were some badass moments of action, of giant roboty sword 'n' gun play, as well as fine moments of cruelty. A friend translating a Newtype caption as 'the buildings are growing' got me interested, the unabashed love of oldschool mecha and science fictional tropes kept me going, and but it was the characters, the people, that kept me interested all the way through the end.
 
 
Bandini
10:19 / 09.08.07
My question would be though Ron Stoppable that are the English dubs better than the Japanese?
Is that even our desision to make or indeed the distributor's?
 
 
---
12:09 / 09.08.07
but it was the characters, the people, that kept me interested all the way through the end.

Yeah, same here, and that was easily my fave part, but I thought that by the end it had been too involved with some of the characters emotional problems, to the point of becoming repetitive, and by doing that it sacrificed the strength of a lot of the story going on around them.

That's just my own view anyway, but yeah, the way it portrayed the characters lives and their personal problems was by far what pushed the story well above average for the most part.
 
 
Seth
18:03 / 09.08.07
I pretty much agree with everything that bandini has written regarding dubs vs subs. My own thoughts on the subject are here. I really recommend checking out the subbed version as soon as you can, Shiny Things. Perhaps downloading or streaming a single subbed episode will be sufficient to notice the comparison, if you have the facility. You can see the first episode subbed here, for example.

Transfer is also right. I really, really, really wouldn't want to see you robbed of the experience of hearing Megumi Ogata playing Shinji, or Megumi Hayashibara as Rei, or Fumihiko Tachiki's horrifying Gendo. Ogata's performance is terrifying in places, imagining her in the vocal both as she channels Shinji send shivers down my spine.

Please don't read the rest of this post though, Shiny Things. It will contain massive spoilerage that I wouldn't want you to see.

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...the parts that got in the way for me included the main hidden plots in the story taking too long to unfold, (I only sat up and thought the story was really beginning about halfway through.)

This is something I've noticed about a lot of anime series, particularly those that have a finite duration and an end point from the outset. There's often a very long, slow beginning that features seemingly stock character types, comedy situations, a focus on action and slapstick and a deceptively simple premise. Elements are introduced slowly and once they are all in place the joy is in watching how what seemed to be fairly basic core ingredients are played off against each other, or subverted, or were just downright misdirection.

(Although you could see Ergo Proxy as playing with this convention by treating the supposedly insanely complex procedural storytelling style of other anime shows and using that as it's deceptive starting convention before subverting that into a surprisingly straightforward character piece and then ducking back the other way once it's made you care).

There are distinct advantages of storytelling in this style. You can have some fun with manipulating expectations, stock elements that are behind other shows, references to other texts, straightforward action and comedic elements as a means of drawing in the casual viewer and getting them interested (this is a money-based industry, remember. Many viewers are put off by something that might appear difficult from the outset).

It also sidesteps the law of diminishing returns when done well. Too many shows start well and then lose their way. Evangelion builds throughout. Admittedly how well the early episodes work for you is dependent on how much you enjoy the high school comedy and farcical elements, which are rarely talked up. Eva can be very, very funny.

Then consider the single added detail in the supposedly recap/filler half episode, the detail that justifies such an exercise. We're shown everything that we thought we knew, only with one added detail that throws much of what we've seen up to this point into doubt. Can a moment like that work without a good deal of time and attention paid to understatement with bare bones foreshadowing?

I guess finally there is one hugely important note in Evangelion that justifies all the silliness and set-up of the early episodes: Shinji's alternate reality in the closing minutes of Episode 26. After around three-quarters of an hour of psychodrama played out like a radio play with still images, a deliberately torturous depiction of the character's internal states, suddenly the daft comedy music that we haven't heard for nearly half the series kicks in and we're back in Misato's apartment, only everything is different. This is arguably the most powerful few minutes of the entire of Evangelion canon, a sequence which works on multiple levels but would be meaningless and without any emotional weight without so much energy and effort paid to riffing on the classic high school comedy tropes in the first half of the show. I remember the first time I saw it and I still have the same reaction now after countless rewatches, it makes me both laugh and cry at the same time, puts me right inside Shinji's head as it shows the world not only as he wishes it was for himself but also for everyone he's come to love. Not many people focus on Shinji's compassion but it's here in spades. Seeing him recreate Rei as a happy, normal high school girl, or how he has depicts Gendo's previously deliberately cruel detachment turn into that of a typically emotionally withdrawn but fundamentally happy father and husband under gentle berating from Yui... it's one of the finest moments of television I've ever witnessed, and it would be nothing without such a long, slow set up.


and the Angels. Nearly every one of the Angels seemed too faceless, void of character, and lasted such a short time for me to really get interested.

The Angels are supposed to feel alien, unfathomable, as George Mastermind would write, "The bits you left on the outside when you designed the box called 'you'." They are literally the *other us,* humanity turned at an angle that makes it alien and unfamiliar. And they're also devices, Hideaki Anno's storytelling style for both Evangelion and Gunbuster involves him using sci-fi trappings to create psychological death traps for his principle characters that both shatter and illuminate them. Crucially they are all seemingly without an access point to easy understanding, and so much of this story's themes rely on how much you can get close a *person* and understand them. At the end of End of Evangelion I would argue that we're left with a Shinji and Asuka who are as alien to the viewer as any of these beings.

The utter coldness of Gendo Ikari towards his own son really frustrated me too.

I am firmly convinced that Gendo's actions towards Shinji are part of a systematic plan on the part of Gendo and Yui to destroy their son's personality from birth. During the Red Earth Purification Ceremony in End of Evangelion we are told that Complementation will happen through the destruction of the ego of Eva 1's pilot. Yui and Gendo deliberately place Shinji at the scene of the "accident" that wipes Yui from the face of the world in order to traumatise their son, to create a vast unconscious earthquake in his personality that will later enable him to form such an explosive and intimate Freudian bond with Yui when she returns to him in the form of Eva 1. We know that the incident in which Yui was physically obliterated and spiritually/psychologically encoded into the Eva was not accidental because in End of Evangelion we are told that Yui is "She who chose to remain in the Eva." Shinji is capable of such a profound bond because he was created to have that bond: he is the product of deliberate parenting. The repressed memory of the incident in which the child loses his mother is never depicted in the series because Anno has to frame it as that-which-is-too-horrific-to-show, it is the seed planted by both parents and nurtured by Gendo's systematic abuse and neglect that allows Shinji to be the catalyst that is amplified on the Tree of Life circuit in End of Evangelion. As his ego - or AT field - collapses it triggers the collapse of all egos and AT fields into oneness.

That he is able to pull himself back into coherence and rejects complementation, that which his parents designed him for, is Shinji's final "triumph." And true to Anno's cruel form you could argue, "Fat lot of good it does him."

I don't know...maybe it was that friction between the good guys and the bad guys that I couldn't find very much, because the bad guys rarely had time onscreen, or their own voice.

As DN says, there are no good or bad guys in Eva. Just a huge cast, some alien, some familiar, some unfathomable, some too close to home, all competing for the same goal whether they know it or not through whatever methods are available to them.

I thought that by the end it had been too involved with some of the characters emotional problems, to the point of becoming repetitive, and by doing that it sacrificed the strength of a lot of the story going on around them.

It's funny, but it's that very repetition that makes Evangelion so peculiarly psychologically accurate, particularly in the final two episodes. Anno is extraordinarily skillful at depicting depression in all its prison of negative self-talk and self-defeating circuitous logic. The more I consider the characters in Eva the more I think it is other texts that have it wrong in their depiction of a way out, a means of breaking the cycles of abuse and self loathing, addictive and compulsive patterns of behaviour, destructive relationships. Virtually everyone I know has remained roughly the same in their core beliefs and behaviours no matter how many years I've known them, always in similar patterns and cycles.

I know many people whose biggest criticism of Evangelion is Shinji, who they dismiss as "whiney." But last time I saw Eva in its entirety I was struck by his bravery, by how little he moaned about his situation. Yes, he's depressed, without drive, apologises for himself, seems to have no anima or spark... as I say above, that's what his parents created him to be. Given his impossible situation he actually hardly moans at all.

And then it struck me. The people who dismiss Shinji as "whiny" were without exception the whiniest people I know. I became convinced hating Shinji for it was an easier route for them than recognising it in themselves. And I came to see the repetitive, cyclical psychodramas and relationships of the Evangelion ensemble almost everywhere I looked to the point at which finding exceptions was the rare event. Everyone is dysfunctional and hurting in some way.

I think it's one of Evangelion's greatest strengths that it makes us question what kind of narratives of character we would like to encounter. Many of us love narratives of redemption, and perhaps the greatest riff that Anno plays on Judeo-Christian themes - and perversely the one that almost always goes unnoticed in critiques of the show that dismiss these elements as superficial trappings - is that it denies us our conventional redemption narrative. Shinji himself rejects Complementation (read: Heaven) as an unrealistic fantasy, a world of absence and finality in which he can never truly have what he wants, which is to work out his pain in relationships and seek loving intimacy. His "redemption" involves him choosing pain and confusion and a life of struggling in the dark, of never being sure. It's a moment of triumph that runs utterly counter to the narratives that most people are comfortable telling themselves, indeed that they tell themselves in order to comfort themselves.

The repetition of the character's internal conflicts and relationships is crucial to this theme, and it's such a challenging message that it's no wonder this series provokes such powerful dislike in some quarters.

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You can read again now, Shiny Things.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
19:12 / 09.08.07
Cheers for the link. Comparing the two I can see how the term abomination might spring to mind for the dubbed one. It's especially nice for Misato not to sound like a manic, screeching loon. I've found a subtitled torrent and added it to my queue - although I suspect I won't be able to resist finished watching the dubbed version in the two days that's going to take to download.

Althought I don't necessarily think that's an awful thing - since despite preferring the subtitles I think there's value in Decadent's comment about watching the dubs first - especially as I'm really not used to subtitles yet.

Not sure if i've got the VHS or DVD version of the dubs really, since the whole thing was from a torrent which wasn't very specific about where it was sourced from, so I'll have to figure that out when I watch the subtitled version.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
21:04 / 09.08.07
Fuuuuck. I told myself I'd just watch one more then crash. I meant it. But that episode was episode 16. How the fuck can I stop and go to sleep now? But if I don't I'll just end up staying up till 3 O'clock to watch the whole series, and enjoying it far less than I would on a decent nights sleep. What a distressing, yet delightful dilemma!
 
 
This Sunday
22:00 / 09.08.07
Being utterly exhausted is almost a necessity for the last four or five episodes. Puts you in just the right state.

When I first watched it, they were coming out nearly-monthly (I remember when the tapes switched color, and it was like an omen), so that's how they got watched, two at a time every time a new tape got released.

Now? I prefer watching the whole thing straight through.

And, I have to agree with the whiniest whining about Shinji's whiny-ness. Seems to be the general case.










I will say I liked that some things are integral and yet totally unstated, like the soul-transfer. Because we all felt super-proud and brilliant when it clicked into place. Or when we started thinking about the death of Kaji and the appearance of a Rei-like boy with a very likely soul-transfer giving him persona atop his angel-ness... and couldn't agree if it was intentional or not, worked or not. Many of the mysteries are better as mysteries than they would be as reveals.










I'm listening to the Second Impact CD, this has made me so sentimental.
 
 
---
23:17 / 09.08.07
Jesus, this post has taken ages with all the re-edits, etc.

Thanks Seth, that was a great post. It helps me see that my main problem with NGE was my expectations.

I went to sleep earlier, and when I woke up, one of the first things I thought about was how guilty I felt at being so negative about the series, because there's a lot in it that I've not reflected on properly, and that I loved about it but didn't go into any depth explaining for whatever reasons...I actually felt guilty! Like I'd liked these characters so much and not said how much I respected that. I also thought back to when I'd watched the end of it and gone to bed the previous night, and remembered then as I do now that there's a healing element to it that I'd not talked about.

I remember going to bed and just feeling a lot more lucid and relaxed, like...it's hard to explain....like it had brought to light and purged some of the elements that you talked about in your post to some degree. Yeah, one of it's qualities is definitely how much time it spends on the characters and their problems, and the way it mirrored that repetitive and frustrating cycle that so many people have when they go through problems in life.

One thing that comes to mind instantly is how attached I became to the simple parts. All of the times we go back to Misato's home for one thing, it's often really funny and enjoyable to watch, and it helps to create a bond between the viewer and the characters a lot more. It's really good with the comedy, like you mentioned. The other side of the characters being shown pulled me right into it more than many other series, for sure. Misato right at the start for instance : (This is kind of SPOILERY for those that haven't seen it yet)


There's the moment where it goes into her head and we hear her thoughts about her car, and how much money it's going to cost to get it sorted, and how stressed she is, etc, then it snaps straight back and she talking to Shinji again like there's nothing wrong and smiling. I loved that part, and it gave an indication that it wasn't going to be as simple as it looked, you get to go inside their minds and know their fears and problems, the difficulties they have, and yeah that goes right through the whole thing and helps you bond with the characters way more than would have been possible otherwise. I read a bit of the wiki page before watching it so I knew that we'd get something a lot more interesting than many other programs if the writer was good enough to portray it, (reading about the psychological aspects got my interest more than anything else.) and yeah that was pulled off really well throughout I think, now that I look back on it.

I became convinced hating Shinji for it was an easier route for them than recognising it in themselves. And I came to see the repetitive, cyclical psychodramas and relationships of the Evangelion ensemble almost everywhere I looked to the point at which finding exceptions was the rare event. Everyone is dysfunctional and hurting in some way.

Yep, it's possibly the very reason that I've seen so much of the characters various problems in myself that I kind of had an adverse reaction to seeing it episode after episode when watching the series. There's something healing about watching it right through and seeing how Shinji and the others coped and dealt with that. I also totally neglected to talk about the almost tortorous situation at the end for some of the characters, when they're being kind of interrogated. The depth it has as it throws up all those different angles as the questions are being asked, and answers are trying to be found, and the way the characters crack as the harsh reality is being suggested to them, that was really strange to see in something like this, and it worked a lot. The last two episodes were easily what I was waiting for after reading about it, and it worked, agreed.

I still think back to something like Akira and how much I liked that, but now it's finally sinking in that NGE is something completely different. I've maybe just had a delayed reaction to it, and that's possibly because I could relate to some of it so much that it's hard to talk about, especially in a forum thread on the net.

I'm sure I'll go back to this and love it a lot more at somepoint in the future. Something tells me that I'm not in a place where I can appreciate it as much as I might do with a clearer head, or even just a second viewing.
 
 
This Sunday
00:42 / 10.08.07
For those who wanted their Eva with redemption and more identifiable villainy (until you think about things for five extra minutes), may I - predictably - suggest watching Revolutionary Girl Utena and/or it's movie? Some of the same folks worked on both, and those who didn't, many of them were asked to work on Eva, with it just not happening for varied reasons. Similar themes, often a similar execution, and it has a little blue mouse-like monkey who wears the devil's necktie.

And, wow, the new movies are right on the horizon, now, aren't they!
 
 
Ron Stoppable
08:17 / 10.08.07
Bandini - it's a long way upthread now (and this is an excellent thread. Every time I try to write, no, compose a critical response I find that someone has beaten me to the punch before I'm finished) but you make a very good point. Not speaking Japanese, It's difficult to get a bead on how strong the acting performances are in anime and so I can't say how much better they are then the English dub.

That said, I think my point is that Evangelion's English dub, or at least in the versions I have, is superbly performed IMHO and I don't get the sense of lack from viewing them with the dub that I do from the majority of the anime I've seen, which is why subtitles are my default option for most things.

I'd be interested in the thoughts of bilingual board members - does the acting performance in Evangelion match the quality of the animation and breadth of vision? And what's the industry standard - are non-Japanese-speakers like myself too ready to praise great-looking, well-plotted works that might actually be very poorly acted, if we but knew?
 
 
Seth
17:34 / 10.08.07
Or when we started thinking about the death of Kaji and the appearance of a Rei-like boy with a very likely soul-transfer giving him persona atop his angel-ness... and couldn't agree if it was intentional or not, worked or not.

That's an absolutely fascinating reading of Kaworu, that he is to Kaji what Rei is to Yui. The easy going nature, the cheeky disarming bluntness, the capacity to understand all sides of a conflict, the compassion...

That's really, really interesting. I don't think it's intended (in the Rebuilds Kaworu is said to be a major character from much earlier on), but it's still a wonderful theory that I'd never considered.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
19:42 / 10.08.07
Finished watching the whole series + EoE and wow. Just wow. I think even dubbed it's probably the most fantastic TV series I've ever watched. Loved both endings - I think perhaps I loved the series ending slightly more - but I think both are enhanced a huge amount by the existence of the other. Will probably post more once I've had a chance for a second watch, this time of the subtitled version.
 
 
Seth
11:38 / 11.08.07
That's really cool, Shiny Things. Since I love experiencing this show anew with fresh eyes, what stood out to you on first viewing?
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
20:27 / 11.08.07
Okay – the thing that most stood out to me was probably Rei. From the moment she first appeared, broken and half dead, I couldn’t shake the feeling that maybe what I was watching was her story, in perhaps a deeper way than it was Shinji’s. I think what did it was the way in which the first episode seemed to be almost a formulaic opener for a Saturday morning kids cartoon – but Rei seemed like a refuge from a very different and far darker show, even back then. And all of the scenes in which Rei played a significant part, in the fairly light-hearted first ten episodes seemed to be filled with a slightly alien sense of mystery and wrongness – like we where seeing hints of the true face of the show’s world. For a while, before I began to realize that what was going on was far stranger I was wondering if Gendo was abusing her sexually as well as in the very strange ways he actually was abusing her. I think that’s because we’re given to understand fairly early on that there is something particularly dark and unusual about their relationship, and at that point one simply doesn’t have any other workable model for what that might mean.

Of course it suddenly stopped being Rei’s story and become Shinji’s for me once I saw episode 16 – the first taste of the interior landscape Shinji experiences increasingly from here on in, the montage of important moments of his life, interspersed with the dialogue he experiences with the Eva/the Angel/Himself whilst trapped – followed by the absolutely horrific scene of the monstrous Eva tearing itself out from a bleeding, black sun. The way in which Eva-1 and Shinji’s escape from the Angel is presented as a terrifying and bad thing, really powerfully subverts the way we’d normally look at an ending in which the main character escapes death and defeats his enemy, all by finding the will to live and carry on. What should have been a triumphant scene, even following the weirdness of the internal scene, instead becomes the darkest moment yet of the show, and serves as a flag that there will be no more stuff that could be mistaken as belonging in a traditional Saturday morning cartoon. And then they spin us round again with Shinji’s misery at the end of the episode, and his mentioning that ‘it still smells of blood’, something that had already floated back to the surface of my mind before Shinji said it, and by giving us a final scene of Shinji out of the Eva we’re reminded that Shinji is a nice, contemplative young man, and of course we should be glad he survived, even if he did so by melding more closely to the monstrosity he’s bound to.

Beyond that episode we’re into the territory I can’t claim to understand more than a fraction of yet – I know I loved letting the artistry of it, both visual and intellectual wash over me, and I know it was truly fantastic, but I can’t claim to have reached any really considered opinions on most of it yet. But I love that I don’t yet understand whether what happened in the end was what Seele wanted, or what Gendo wanted, or both of them, or neither. I also had that Gigantor Machinegod quote that’s been used either in this thread or one of the other threads in which NGE is discussed about ‘the things you left out when you built the house called me’ running through my head when watching the mindfuck that was the final episodes. And I think it’s true of most of the things I really love that I don’t come close to understanding them the first time.

One thing I can say I did understand and enjoy from the closing episodes of the series was the transformation of my perception of Asuka, from an unbearably annoying, bratty presence, who barely seemed to fit in the show, into an wonderful, sympathetic character. A complete about face in my perception of the character accomplished by providing new information, without changing her personality, or behaviour. Beautifully crafted character work, and on a certain level easier to understand than the equally brilliant work on Shinji and Rei in the final episodes. Although not unconnected, as I suspect it’s supposed to be possible to note a change in one’s perception of Asuka, and that this is perhaps supposed add savour to all the business of ‘I am the (character x) that exists in (characters y)’s mind’ in the final episodes.
 
 
Seth
17:20 / 13.08.07
all the business of ‘I am the (character x) that exists in (characters y)’s mind’ in the final episodes

In NLP they use the term Second Position to describe the tool of wearing your conception of someone else, a a kind of brief method acted *becoming* of another person, whereby you occupy your best approximation of their state in micro-modelled terms, from their posture and breathing right the way to what you imagine they see, hear, feel, think and believe.

Evangelion offers something unique here, I believe... or at the very least something I've never encountered before. I'm familiar with many accounts and descriptions of undifferentiated states, but never before have I encountered person x' conception of person y in communion with person y's conception of person x. In Evangelion's it's delivered straight like a courtroom drama, but I wonder whether some of the brain melting sequences in End of Evangelion are this process taken a step further (the rejection audio montage, the scene where Shinji overthrows the table and strangles Asuka).

Anno is positing some kind of state in which second position can be in dialogue with another second position, a state that I'm thinking could have extremely interesting applications in relationship counselling under light trance. I reckon there's a rather amazing NLP technique to be written here (that's if someone else hasn't beaten me to it). The Human Instrumentality Systemic Intervention Pattern, were I to use the cheesy language in The Sourcebook of Magic.

It's a fascinating sci-fi creation, one of the most extraordinary things that Anno has made: a world in which the single self (which is illusory anyway, a trance that possesses us most of the time rather than vice versa) disappears into just one the infinite reflected selves that exist in the minds of others. And I also loved that Anno scraps the notion and has Shinji opt for muscle, bone and physicality. Wilhelm Reich would be proud.

Imagine how much better The Invisibles would have been if Dane had told the supercontext to go fuck itself along with the Judeo-Christian-hope-of-heaven bullshit it rode in on.

Shinji Ikari owns Jack Frost's mouthy Liverpudlian ass.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
17:45 / 13.08.07
The end of EoE will always trump any number of hazily imagined Griff Magellan everything's-alright-forever happy endings, no matter how moving some of them are (Doom Patrol - you wept buckets and you know it), because the paradise created by SEELE is simple, specific, inviting and utterly false. But to have the grievously hard choice of rejecting an end to pain, individuation and mortality rewarded not with a reunion of flawed lovers on the terminal beach, but with what seems like an almost unbearable scene of alienation and anger, is true artistic genius. I think I had this insight at Seth's Evathon, but it's probably in want of testing here - Shinji's desperate strangulation of Asuka is still a positive and hopeful act precisely because, after the enforced spiritual union of Instrumentality, it's one separate human being reaching out to another - the hand that harms is also one that can also help.

You know what? That's not even the moment that really destroys me in EoE. It's the long scene that immediately precedes it, and that incredible shot of Unit 01 drifting off into eternity, and Yui's line...

"As long as the Sun, the Moon and the Earth exist, everything will be all right."

Every, damn, time.
 
 
Seth
21:43 / 13.08.07
God's in His heaven, all's right with the world is the only mention of God in the whole of Evangelion as far as I can remember. It seems to be the same sentiment.

The beach sequence at the end of End of Evangelion is ripe for analysis and conflicting viewpoints, and I'm concerned that my previous theory on another thread has been seen as a debate silencer:

The final scene in EofE is the essentially the result of Shinji turning down Instrumentality, only forced back hard onto the viewer. Up to this point you’ve had a pretty complete and privileged birds eye view into the psyche of this character, but the rejection of Instrumentality is all about returning to being individuated beings who can’t ever truly understand each other and who will inevitably hurt each other. This plays out in spades on the beach: you’re suddenly robbed of your ability to understand these two main characters, and so their actions and words are horribly inexplicable.

The ambiguity is the point here. You’re left on the outside of two people you thought you knew. Great final scene.


Because as Transfer points out, this is only a fraction of what can be learned from this scene.
 
 
This Sunday
22:22 / 13.08.07
Eh. As the last determined defender of the original ending, I'll take my complimentation. And so will you. And you. And you, too.

And like it.

Really, anyone who looks paradise in the mouth and fails to find so much as a bit of plaque or a quarter-inch abscess near a back tooth, yet still declares it a trick, a fraud, and oh so bad? Paranoid, terrified, and otherwise unheathy. Rejection of complimentation is symptomatic of being unprepared for it, hence, people get more than whiny about the end we're given, they're given the alternative, and the original is posited as irretrievable and flawwed. Which is the same thing Adam said when they rode him out on the rail back when. Shaking his fist at the border, and everything.

No? How about fox, grapes, paw-shaking?
 
  

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