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deletia
06:34 / 03.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Jackie Nothing Special:
And I still find a lot of what you're saying quite weird - the rock-throwers were choreographed? How do you arrange something like that?


With a gang of kids, a lame dance teacher, a hard floor and a dream...

This is the kind of thing I am talking about - I remember a report in the Daily Mail (middlebrow right-wing tabloid in the UK) of the Reclaim the Streets event in London earlier this year, in which a reporter "infiltrated" one fo the groups (by the devilishly cunning device fo turning up) and breathlessly reported how some of them "high on the combat drug Ecstasy", attacked the police.

If somebody came onto the Underground with a similar position, that Ecstasy was a sort of super-PCP used ot make them more ferocious in their battles with police, I think I woudl find it very hard to treat that opinion seriously. The question is, should one be expected to? Is there a point at which one can draw a line and say "I have no respect at all for your views, and they are so wide of the theoretical bases of the Underground that I feel entitled to express that, knowing that you will be able to find a community of support elsewhere (often the Daily Mail)"?
 
 
ephemerat
07:57 / 03.07.01
<MEDIA HYPE> Quite. Who could forget the Daily Express headline; ‘Moscow-trained hit squad gave orders as mob hacked PC Blakelock to death KILL! KILL! KILL!’ published on 8 October 1985 (after the Tottenham riots)? Pure propagandist bullshit at its most extreme. </MEDIA HYPE>

As has been previously mentioned, differing views are pretty much the lifeblood of somewhere like Barbelith. Is it our responsibility to nurture and protect others who we don’t agree with? To a certain extent, yes. If we want debate. I personally have no problem with people posting here with completely opposite views as long as they are argued convincingly and with a minimum of rancour. Is there a point at which one might say "I have no respect at all for your views, and they are so wide of the theoretical bases of the Underground that I feel entitled to express that, knowing that you will be able to find a community of support elsewhere (often the Daily Mail)"? Certainly. The question is, by having policy debates on these kinds of subjects are we perpetuating the concept of Barbelith conformity or merely showing our diversity? Are we laying out laws that newbies wouldn't recognise, or would feel threatened by?
 
 
No star here laces
10:53 / 03.07.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Thorns:
Is there a point at which one can draw a line and say "I have no respect at all for your views, and they are so wide of the theoretical bases of the Underground that I feel entitled to express that, knowing that you will be able to find a community of support elsewhere (often the Daily Mail)"?


I'm going to call you on this Haus, cos I'm very curious. But at the same time don't want to distract from the question above, cos it's very well phrased.

Doubtless there is a point where one stops listening to someone because otherwise we'd all be spending our lives attempting to reason with angry drunken tramps who ask us for change outside the kebab shop. But it's not exactly something you can quantify or 'draw a line', but something that has to be judged by content and mode of expression. Which is obviously not exactly helpful, but then the truth rarely is (to be pompous).

As for the 'conservative' element, i.e. even if someone is coherent and polite, but are expounding what are traditionally called 'right-wing' views should they be ignored? Well, I have to say that I disagree - they should not be ignored. I don't personally acknowledge the validity and relevance of right-left distinctions today. These notions are based on nothing more than centuries of party political tradition, at root, there is no logical reason why a belief in low taxation has to go with a belief in draconian policing, for example. I think a 'true' radical takes every idea for what it is, not what it is associated with, and makes of it what s/he will, so I'm personally happy to have such views around. It is far better to be able to discount an opinion because one has successfully argued for its irrelevance than it is to dismiss it out of hand because it pushes the wrong pop-culture buttons.

And on that point, this is what I'd like to call Haus on. Not out of malice but curiosity: what are your views Haus? You are fond, particularly on threads dealing with gender, pop culture and abstract philosophy, to vilify the views of others, but very rarely do you ever say what you personally believe. So I'm curious. Do your views 'fit in'? It's much harder to be the one who has to state his case, I'm wondering if you're up to it...
 
 
deletia
12:08 / 03.07.01
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Plato the Soul Brother:

Doubtless there is a point where one stops listening to someone because otherwise we'd all be spending our lives attempting to reason with angry drunken tramps who ask us for change outside the kebab shop.


Especially the black ones, eh, Margin Walker?Eh, eh?

These notions are based on nothing more than centuries of party political tradition, at root, there is no logical reason why a belief in low taxation has to go with a belief in draconian policing, for example.[/QB}

Actually, quite reasonably, because low taxation tends to lead to decaying public services, which tends to lead to civil unrest, at which point a numerous and well-equipped police force becomes an extremely useful thing to have around.

Also, because low taxation assists the unfettered accumulation of wealth and property by a minority, generally at the expense of those who stand to lose less by a lowering of taxes because they earn less. This, in turn, is liekly to lead to attempts by the latter group to redistribute wealth from the former on an individual level, whether this is through mugging, housebreaking or white-collar crime. Highly-developed law enforcement is therefore required to protect the inalienable right of capitalists to capital.

It may be possible to advance one and not the other, as it possible to be a Conservative without being a homophobe, but the argument that right/left distinctions in politics are meaningless can be historically and socially idle.

[QB]It is far better to be able to discount an opinion because one has successfully argued for its irrelevance than it is to dismiss it out of hand because it pushes the wrong pop-culture buttons.


Which is not by any means what I was advancing, inevitably. My point was rather that if you went to a fly-fishing bulletin board and began a thread on fistfucking, you might get a fairly cool response. Likewise, the remit of the Switch Board is, although I don't have time to go and grab the summaries right now, to discuss a particular form of politics/insurgency - call it what you will.

The question is, should there be an incumbency to argue that irrelevance. If, for example, somebody expresses a point on the desirability of involuntary repatriation, or the Hegemony of Nonce, is there an incumbency to address this point seriously? Is it the kind of mined-out areas politics or philosophy that we are on the Underground to avoid?


And on that point, this is what I'd like to call Haus on. Not out of malice but curiosity: what are your views Haus? You are fond, particularly on threads dealing with gender, pop culture and abstract philosophy, to vilify the views of others, but very rarely do you ever say what you personally believe. So I'm curious. Do your views 'fit in'? It's much harder to be the one who has to state his case, I'm wondering if you're up to it...


My views have repeatedly cropped up, expressed in my reactions to other views, as statements of belief, as discussions of the viabiity of various proposals or practises. I must humbly suggest that you haven't been paying attention. If, on the other hand, you are complaining that there has never been a Haus manifesto, then you are quite right, and I see no particular reason to publish one now, any more than I felt a need to post a "Hey, everyone! I'm back!" thread on the Conversation.

And what do you mean by views? Would you like me to explain everything I think about gender, pop culture and abstract philosophy, or is there another project here?
 
 
No star here laces
13:37 / 03.07.01
No, the point being that you are currently castigating people for certain political views, and politically it is very unclear where you stand. I would concur that in the threads I mentioned you do commit to a position, but not a political one, hence the logic of pointing this out by citing what you do like to talk about in a thread discussing politics.

I also find it significant that you react to what was a fairly innocent inquiry by defensively attacking what I had posted, rather than by simply posting up a few examples of things you believe in, which I can't help but find significant.

I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but I was just somewhat amused in seeing one of Barbelith's less, er, 'idealistic' posters waxing lyrical in defence of revolutionary politics on this thread. There is nothing wrong with enjoying a good argument, it's a fine pastime, but it's not the same thing as having beliefs, and arguing against something is not the same as proposing a possible solution to a problem - just ask William Hague.

Indulge me, Haus, go and stick something down in the 'Alternatives' thread...
 
 
deletia
14:15 / 03.07.01
AAAAARGH.

Said he politely. There is nothing defensive in pointing out where arguments are incomplete. Please identify a single instance of "defenciveness" above.

And while you're at it, you could find some examples of my "waxing lyrical in defence of revolutionary politics". This is meant to be a thread about whether reactionary stances deserve to be debated (or, if you prefer, redebated). It has nothing to say about the values or otherwise of revolutionary politics, only their comparative suitability to topic areas devoted to revolutionary politics.

I really don't see where this becomes such a difficult concept.
 
 
No star here laces
14:38 / 03.07.01
Aw I'm sorry sweetie-pie of course it wasn't in the slightest bit defensive.

Anyway you're absolutely right, there is no logical point to anything I'm saying here, I just found it amusing - it's a sunny day, a fresh breeze is blowing, all of that sort of thing goes hand in hand with a spot of good natured cyber banter.

But I still dare ya to tell us how you'd sort the world out, or at least state an opinion on wealth redistribution.

 
 
deletia
15:09 / 03.07.01
Hey, I'll leave that to the experts.
 
 
Axel Lambert
22:05 / 03.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Jackie Nothing Special:
I still find a lot of what you're saying quite weird - the rock-throwers were choreographed? How do you arrange something like that? And what the hell was this "list" the cops found? "Things to trash: 1) McDonalds. 2) Starbucks. 3) Our image as peaceful protestors." I mean, it sounds like the most absurd piece of fake evidence ever - can you post a link to a news report about it or something? It sounds hilarious.


Well, this list my apparently found on either the AFA's (anti-fascist action) web page, or linked to from it. I've read it in different news articles. As soon as I find one I'll post it here.

The stone throwing seemed awfully rehearsed, well-trained on the news. Like the people knew what they were doing, and had actually prepared for this. Which is concistent with the fact that many of them dug up stones before the riots started. Said web site supposedly had a message saying that "Gothenburg is a wonderful city. It has a lot of stones in the streets", with a picture of people digging up stones.

I myself do not find it hard to understand that these people would target different capitalist symbols (McDonalds, different banks).

[ 04-07-2001: Message edited by: Harry Christmas ]
 
 
Jackie Susann
22:19 / 03.07.01
Okay, the list was presumably a list of particularly nasty corporations with details of their misdeeds, something you can find (with or without inflammatory "places to trash" heading) on/in activist-related websites and magazines around the world. To be honest, I can't even remember what we're supposed to be arguing about. People were digging up stones, so what? That justifies police shooting people? If you're going to come out with that sort of stuff, some of us are going to consider your views comical. Deal with it.
 
 
Axel Lambert
23:26 / 03.07.01
(Sigh)

Again, the police did not shoot after "people were digging up stones", they shot (without orders to do so) after people started throwing stones at them, at their horses, and at an unconscious policman on the ground. I only mentioned the digging up stones because it shows the riots were not spontaneous. As does the masks.

And list was supposedly not just a list of evil corporations, but a list of places that were to be destroyed in Gothenburg during the summit. I will bring any news links I can find.

Also, I have never said that the shootings are justified. They are not. It was a bad thing to do. They should of course have fired warning shots first, and then aimed for the legs. But maybe these things happen in a (quasi-)revolutionary situation. Some cop loses it.

But apart from the shooting (as I have repeatedly said) I think the police (to my knowledge) did a decent job given the circumstances. I think the peaceful demonstrators did a good job. I think the masked rioters did a terrible thing.

Is this view so extreme? Reactionary?

[ 04-07-2001: Message edited by: Harry Christmas ]
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:44 / 03.07.01
Extreme, no; reactionary, yes; comical, definitely.
 
 
Axel Lambert
23:51 / 03.07.01
You're insane.
 
 
deletia
06:00 / 04.07.01
No, s/he's in character.

Tell you what, though, if I find myself having to dig up pavements once I arrive somewhere just to have summat to throw at the Police, I will consider myself ill-prepared in the extreme.
 
 
reidcourchie
08:51 / 04.07.01
Originally posted by The Haus of Thorns
"My point was rather that if you went to a fly-fishing bulletin board and began a thread on fistfucking, you might get a fairly cool response."

But that's not what we're talking about is it? What would be more appropriate is saying that as a live bait fisherman posting on a a fly fishing forum, should you be castigated for your maggott murdering ways? We're talking about people expecting to be able to post in the political threads, regardless of their beliefs.

Haus can you tell me the parameters for reasonable political beliefs on Barbelith that will notleave you subject to peer group pressure and pixilated abuse?
 
 
deletia
08:51 / 04.07.01
Pixelated, surely. I assure you that I am at least occasionally sober in my abuse.

And maggot murdering may be a better comparison, although actually some of the arguments advanced recently have been so...Silurian that they may as well belong to a different discipline.

Take the basic tenet of masculinism - that the emancipation fo women is posing a threat to men's ability to be men. This theory is not offensive to anyone with a reasonable grasp of modern gender thinking, it could be said to be alien - addressign a series of concerns and principles which simply do not have any conceptual heft. Like me constantly refuting Jackie by appealing to DesCartes.
 
 
reidcourchie
08:51 / 04.07.01
Silurian? Are you taking the piss?

And now slowly for those of us not as well educated as you.
 
 
Ellis
08:51 / 04.07.01
From Dictionary.com

Si·lu·ri·an (s-lr-n, s-)
adj.
Of or belonging to the geologic time, system of rocks, or sedimentary deposits of the third period of the Paleozoic Era, characterized by the development of jawed fishes, early invertebrate land animals, and land plants. See table at geologic time.

n.
The Silurian Period or its system of deposits.


Does it make more sense now? No? Gah.
 
 
ynh
08:51 / 04.07.01
Y'all are meant to unnerstan' that sayin' sumthin' like "The women folk're takin' over," is akin t' counterin' Focault with DesCartes if ah'm not mistaken.

Now, ah don't mind the white supremacist capitalist heteropatriarchal folk when they put up a decent fight, mind you. But when they show up in their good suits sayin' "pish tosh" in fewer words to a carefully reasoned argument... well let's jus' say ah'm inclined t' think they're not worth the trouble a' bein' kindly to.

'Sides, that bald fella folks're always yammerin' about warned us:

quote:"Clothes will get tighter, hair will get shorter, things will be repressive rather than expansive. These kids will find 1984 and Big Brother funny. They'll be saying 'CCTV is great! The Police are great! Helicopters are great!' It'll drive their parents mad."
 
 
reidcourchie
11:24 / 04.07.01
Gosh, you're all so clever.

All I'm saying is that for us reptilian brained, red neck yobs, it might be useful to have a list of ideas and beliefs it is permissable to hold on the underground and which ones we can expect to be castigated for.

For example are you allowed to post if you only have the barest idea of whom DesCartes is?
 
 
Ellis
11:26 / 04.07.01
quote:Originally posted by reidcourchie:
For example are you allowed to post if you only have the barest idea of whom DesCartes is?


No.
 
 
E Randy Dupre
11:34 / 04.07.01
You joke, but I suspect that this is beginning to be the case.
 
 
deletia
12:16 / 04.07.01
I'd suggest that, given that there is only a finite amount of space in the human head and a finite amount of time to devote to filling it, there will be many people here who don't have a complete handle on Descartes, myself included. But that does not disqualify people from taking an interest in discussions about, around or referencing Descartes.

But without intellectual curiosity, there isn't really much point. Which is maybe more where the crux lies. Reid, for example, has become increasingly diverted from the original question, which dealt with reactionary views no matter how eloquently they were expressed, to deliver instead accusations that there is some sort of lexicographical elite stifling all discussion on Barbelith. Which, as Ellis pointed out, can be sorted out fairly quickly in most cases with recourse to a dictionary. You know, like the "pixelated/pixillated" gag.

Why? Perhaps because reid is _interested_ in there being this lexicographical elite, possibly beause the idea that there is a handy bunch interested not in discussion but in verbal one-upmanship gets him off the hook if his own beliefs are challenged. Who knows?

Likewise, as YNH says, if somebody is simply not willing or not able to discuss their own or others' propositions, then they are unlikely to bring anything terribly useful to the discussion. This is an unfortunate truth.

In the meantime, I am concerned by claims liek those of reid and Randy above. Because is it not possible that they lead to the idea that people possessing concepts, words or opinions that you do not makes them alienated, other and quite possibly simply wrong, removing any pressure to provide a reasoned, intelligent or challenging response - by which I mean challenging to their interlocutor's beliefs or their own?
 
 
Ellis
12:35 / 04.07.01
Thoughts:

The posters who are most vocal may be thought of to represent the whole of Barbelith and its opinions.

People who disagree with the most vocal posters may feel that they don't belong here or that their views are not welcome.

If we all agreed on issues and were syco-pathic then this place would be boring.

If you can't stand to have your views criticised/ ridiculed don't post them.
 
 
reidcourchie
13:29 / 04.07.01
Originally posted by Haus
"Reid, for example, has become increasingly diverted from the original question, which dealt with reactionary views no matter how eloquently they were expressed, to deliver instead accusations that there is some sort of lexicographical elite stifling all discussion on Barbelith. Which, as Ellis pointed out, can be sorted out fairly quickly in most cases with recourse to a dictionary. You know, like the "pixelated/pixillated" gag."

You are correct I have strayed off the mark. However you where wrong about the "gag", I just can't spell. Sorry to dissapoint you. I don't think there is a lexicographical elite trying to stifle conversation on the Underground though I do occasionally get tired of being patronised (On the other hand complaining to Haus about intellectual bullying strikes me as an excercise in futility.)

Posted by Haus
"Why? Perhaps because reid is _interested_ in there being this lexicographical elite, possibly beause the idea that there is a handy bunch interested not in discussion but in verbal one-upmanship gets him off the hook if his own beliefs are challenged. Who knows?"

Difficult to know whether you are serious or not due to your style of posting. This was not the impression that I was trying to give. I have thought that genrally I can give quite a good account of my beliefs and opinions and not only that but they are flexible depending on new information but then you never know how other people perceive you. All I was saying is that there appears to be paramaeters to discussions on th undergrounds. Yes people can debate and disagree but only in accepted parameters (and I do not mean the tone or language used in the posts, that has been covered in a number of different how to behave properly on Barbelith threads) of belief. That you are supposed to think with in those lines. And if you don't you are described as "reactionary" (quite a subjective word). If anything I think I'm part of it, with few exceptions I don't think my opinions are too dissimilar to waht I would consider a mainstream barbelith view.

There's nothing intrinsicly wrong with a group of like minded people having similar views it's when someone comes along and challenges them it should be a good thing not an excuse to hammer them down.

The problem is threads dealing with this kind of thing, bullying, etc keep on coming up and the answer is always a minority saying, nope, not happening and that seems to be as far as we go.
 
 
deletia
13:53 / 04.07.01
quote:
There's nothing intrinsicly wrong with a group of like minded people having similar views it's when someone comes along and challenges them it should be a good thing not an excuse to hammer them down.


I agree entirely. I love being challenged. Being told that there are leading "feminazis" who would agree with a word-for-word transcription of Mein Kampf applied to men, or that wearing a dress is not feminine but nails are, is not challenging. It's just a litle depressing, and intermittently buttfuck-funny.
 
 
Ganesh
18:57 / 04.07.01
I guess a lot of this depends on whether one's aim is to argue by constructively engaging with one's discursive 'opponent' or to demolish them, verbally. Are compromise and consensus advantageous or destructive to arguments? Does one actually want to find common ground, or merely look good by destroying one's 'opponent' in an entertaining manner?

(Incidentally, I know fuck-all about Descartes...)
 
 
E Randy Dupre
19:29 / 04.07.01
Compromise in those terms has other uses.

Dismissing an argument purely on the basis that it's "stupid" just demonstrates your own stupidity. If it really is that idiotic, pull it apart, show why that's so. Failure to do so only ever results in people either ignoring or ridiculing you.
 
 
Ganesh
19:35 / 04.07.01
I'd agree, but I'd add the caveat that it's useful (in the initial stages of an argument, anyway) to at least try to spare the other person's feelings; pull the argument apart by all means, but try to do so in a way that doesn't completely destroy them. That's if you're interested in actually getting though to them, as opposed to amusingly 'grandstanding'.
 
 
deletia
20:13 / 04.07.01
Good point. And I think Zenith has pointed out that different people have different things that stimulate them to rage. And everyone has their reasons for these "hot buttons".

Naturally, in a perfect world we all count to ten before posting. And, likewise, in a perfect world we discuss things calmly and rationally while accepting the validity and the beauty of our emotions. And in a perfect world we accept different modes of expression without accusations either of stupidity, "verbal grandstanding" or any point in between.


Anyone know how we can bring about this perfect world?
 
 
Ganesh
20:24 / 04.07.01
Mutual niceness.



<pauses for Sanity Throw>

 
 
reidcourchie
06:04 / 05.07.01
Originally posted by Haus
"I agree entirely. I love being challenged. Being told that there are leading "feminazis" who would agree with a word-for-word transcription of Mein Kampf applied to men, or that wearing a dress is not feminine but nails are, is not challenging. It's just a litle depressing, and intermittently buttfuck-funny."

I find there is little I can say to argue with the specific examples posted above, I haven't been reading the gender threads and most of my comments where based upon other incidents. I am however now going to have a look at the gender threads. Which threads did the above comments come from?

I think all I'd like to say is this. If you find something another poster has said offensive/stupid, yes it is better to try and remain calm and then deal with what they post as constructivly as you can but if you go off on him fine. But react to them as an individual don't just kick them around because everyone else is.
 
 
E Randy Dupre
06:54 / 05.07.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Thorns:
Anyone know how we can bring about this perfect world?


Yep. Ban you
 
 
deletia
07:18 / 05.07.01
Bless.

Reid, the gender threads wandered between each other in subject matter, but the thrust of the "Feminazi" argument can be found in Slagnostic's posts on "The Babrleith Gender War", started by Klint in the Conversation.

[ 05-07-2001: Message edited by: The Haus of Thorns ]
 
 
TK 2004
10:23 / 05.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Ellis:
The posters who are most vocal may be thought of to represent the whole of Barbelith and its opinions.

People who disagree with the most vocal posters may feel that they don't belong here or that their views are not welcome.

If we all agreed on issues and were syco-pathic then this place would be boring.

If you can't stand to have your views criticised/ ridiculed don't post them.


My god, that's lucid.
The Dubliner elite of B.U/G vigorously *bomp*ed their beer steins on hardwood tables in time to the vaguely Nordic hue of:
"Too fuckin' right!!
Indoors livestock, with good reason, took fright. Several of the cattle prematurely birthed; many slunks were thrown in the pan to be fried.
Once crisp, they were served in little plastic wicker baskets and yummed up by our drunken mob.
 
  

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