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Jackie Susann
01:45 / 29.06.01
If your definition of 'conservative' is 'bible-thumping' then no, no conservatives post here. Some of us understand the term to refer more broadly to right wing positions, in which case a number of people post here with conservative views (and please note, you can hold particular conservative views without being any kind of lock, stock and barrel conservative). For examples, look at the Violence at the Summit and/or Alternatives threads, and apparently the gender ones, although I haven't been following them.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
01:45 / 29.06.01
Jacky's point about posting styles is a relevant one.

Also, what if you read something that you genuinely find objectionable, disgusting, etc. And react accordingly with (righteous!) anger.

Is this not allowed? There seems to be a kick against people being allowed to post angrily. Sure, it's not the most constructive voice sometimes, but then it can be the only voice you've got. And i'm with Jacky that anger can sometimes be a damn sight more constructive than another round of hand-wringing.

What if something makes you really fucking angry when you read it. Do you *have* to go away and only come back and post when you're calmer?

Do we want (apparently) unemotional communication to be the only order of the day?

We're happy enough with people being happy and cuddly and sweet at each other, and this place has often given genuine emotional support to people when they've needed it. it's a little unbalanced to only allow for one half of the emotional scale?

Might as well in that case prohibit people from being kind to each other online as well.

[ 29-06-2001: Message edited by: Lick my plums, bitch. ]
 
 
Rialto
01:45 / 29.06.01
I agree entirely, but one man's saevo indignatio (if this is not correct Latin, sue me) is another person's "self-indulgent posing"...
 
 
deletia
10:27 / 29.06.01
Interesting one. The problem being that, although anger is an entirely understnadable response to a lot of things, and the freedom to express that anger also a good thing, that expression can tend to short-circuit debate.

For example, as soon as the word "feminiazi" started being used in one of the gender threads I was basically posting in fury from then on, because I was familiar with the constituency who used the term. Which meant that I said some rather unkind (if not untrue) things, which meant the emotional temperature went up another notch, and so on.

In a sense, angry but coherent posts might be said to be as much a giving in on free communication as "rolling around on the floor screaming and shitting yourself" posts...
 
 
Traz
07:31 / 30.06.01
I was banned from another forum for commenting on the behavior of a particularly petty administrator. I'm curious about this board's history; is the exiling of annoying members common, rare or unheard of? I don't plan on trolling for abuse, but I find certain forms of arrogance to be provocative. Do I need to get a permission slip from a moderator before I say to a pompous, bourgeois swine, "You are a pompous, bourgeois swine"?

Please explain your customs to me so I can judge whether or not they are worthy of being honored.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:05 / 30.06.01
Actual removal of posting rights was unheard-of until a couple of months ago. Only one person that I know of has been excluded, and I believe that individual was reinstated due to popular (ethical/theoretical, rather than personal) demand...although it is also my feeling that s/he was then responsible for a number of unpleasant messages which surfaced immediately thereafter and caused a deal of distress to some members...in any case, the matter is in the past.

Moderators have no brief to remove posts of censure posters for being rude or irritating or whatever. They act purely to tidy up the mess - unused threads etc.

Finally, I would suggest to you that you have no particular mandate to judge or assay the board or the individuals who post here. There are no hard and fast customs, but the Underground is a participatory exercise. By definition, therefore, you will need to honour some of the conventions here in order to get any joy from it. The best initial approach (in my experience) is generally one of intelligent curiosity, goodwill, and fun.
 
 
deletia
12:27 / 30.06.01
Or, to put it another way, we are generally unconcerned (or at least try to be) both by the dull stuff that moderators and others do on other boards, and by the petty disputes brought about by the dull stuff that moderators do, If you are going to be abusive, however, you should try to do it with a degree of wit. And just a teaspoonful of happy, redemptive...love.

It goes a long way, man.

In general, you'll be able to tell if you have gone too far when a decent minority within the board starts taking the piss out of you. See (or rather ask a policeman about) Weaken the Stronghold, Is Morrison Gay?, and (for that matter) is Morrison afraid of Moore? for reference.
 
 
Axel Lambert
19:21 / 30.06.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haunted Haus:
...comically reactionary views? People who believe that the police are doing a bloody good job given the pressure they are under? The peopel who believe that protestors are a gangof violent lunatics?


I fail to see what's comical about it. Surely it's a reasonable view that a demonstrators might also be a rioter might also be....a terrorist (for want of a better word). Especially if you're masked, organized, anonymous and armed. And surely not everything the police does is a priori bad. The riots in Gothenburg did indeed present a situation of "pressure" to the police, who with some exceptions (one being using guns), I guess, actually did a rather "good job".

So, you wanna kick me out now?
[/LIST]

[ 30-06-2001: Message edited by: Harry Christmas ]
 
 
Axel Lambert
19:38 / 30.06.01
But then again, The Switchboard's defintion or usage of the frase 'politics and activism' is "for politics and activism: resistance in the streets, anti-capitalism, echelon, adbusting - global resistance".

Somehow this disturbs me.
 
 
Jackie Susann
20:20 / 30.06.01
quote:Especially if you're masked, organized, anonymous and armed.

Like the cops, you mean? But of course, it's the terrorists, or demonstrators, or whatever those idiots call themselves who are the problem.

The point isn't that police did or didn't do a good job given trying circumstances. As somebody once said, "It is the cop's job to use force. Therefore you can't let them maintain the hypocrisy of disguising that force behind orders which have to be immediately obeyed."

Nobody wants to kick you off, but if you have so much trouble seeing why a forum should be about anti-capitalist resistance, or why people might think it was comical to discuss police action solely in terms of particular responses and not at all in terms of policy and institutional factors, maybe this isn't the best forum for your views?
 
 
Axel Lambert
20:34 / 30.06.01
Ok then. Firstly, there are demonstrators and there are rioters. Different thing (though of course they might be the same). The demonstrators were at least 20 000, probably more. Many of my friends were demonstrating. The organized rioters were, shall we say 1 000, tops. And then many of the "usual" demonstrators joins in the riots, once they had started.

Secondly, the cops were not anonymous, they even had numbers printed on their helmets in response to criticism of earlier police violence in Malmoe.

quote:
Nobody wants to kick you off, but if you have so much trouble seeing why a forum should be about anti-capitalist resistance, or why people might think it was comical to discuss police action solely in terms of particular responses and not at all in terms of policy and institutional factors, maybe this isn't the best forum for your views?


Who thinks this?
 
 
deletia
09:01 / 01.07.01
OK, look, guys, peace up. I'm going to do some meditation now. I hope you will all join me. Ommm.....

Christmas, stop whining. The point is precisely that the Switch Board is predicated on the assumption that those on it are likely to hold any one of a number of views which could broadly fit into the remit of its subject description. That's what the cockclocking description is for. And nobody has suggested they want to kick you out. The question is whether people who hold and express views antithetical to the values expressed in the mission statements of the Underground and its subsections should expect others to treat their opinions with respect and load them into the discussion, or whether it is OK to point and laugh. One might wish to compare and contrast your own "Is Morrison gay?" and "Is Morrison afraid of Moore" threads on a previous incarnation of the Underground, where your questions were generally judged to be a) dubious, b) irrelevant and c) see a and b. So, pointing and laughing, and then everybody got back to business. I was wondering whether a similar standard could be applied to political or theoretical opinions.

Noone wants anyone to be a martyr. Just smarter.


Whew. You know, normally when I meditate I feel refreshed. But this time, I just feel tired. And dirty....

Did I say anything odd? Guys?
 
 
Axel Lambert
09:01 / 01.07.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Love:
One might wish to compare and contrast your own "Is Morrison gay?" and "Is Morrison afraid of Moore" threads on a previous incarnation of the Underground, where your questions were generally judged to be a) dubious, b) irrelevant and c) see a and b.


?????

No, those threads were not mine. I might have added something, maybe, but if so, I can't remember what. What were you thinking of?

Apart from that, I understand your point of view, which was exactly why I added my bit about the Switchboard definition. But, hey, "fighting in the streets", I always thought that was some kind of hip sense of humour, or some anarchistic Invisiblesque posture, not actually embracing real street violence in democratic societies.

It seems to me a little, shall we say -- un-barbelith to start screaming BAD BAD COPS. Too easy, guys. I'd be more interested in discussing herd mentality and mass psychosis.

And would you honestly dis the police as much if the guy who got shot was a neo-nazi, in a right wing demonstration?
 
 
TK 2004
11:21 / 01.07.01
Harry:
Don't intend to tell tales out of school, but you were the one that said "So, you wanna kick me out now," as though we'd bodily toss you from the treehouse for expressing a dissenting opinion. No-one here's interested in doing so, man; to be frank, your phrasing sounds bitchy. I'd advise against using that voice, because it doesn't help you; many might cease listening to you altogether because of an overly emotional statement.
For you, that might be worse than being zapped, Ellis-forum style.
Just a friendly word.
Now, as to your more recent post:

....But, hey, "fighting in the streets", I always thought that was some kind of hip sense of humour, or some anarchistic Invisiblesque posture, not actually embracing real street violence in democratic societies.

Don't let this happen to you, kids.
'Embracing' is rather a strong indictment. Do the postulated leanings of a few memebers apply to the group? If 'Cop Killer' were judged on the basis of his adopting the name of an Ice-T song, he'd be in the slam. His early admonishments to 'fuck shit up' would be taken into account at the expense of his real-world behavior; it's so reactionary as to be comparable with expelling a child from school for non-violent use of the word 'gun'.
That's sophistry putting on a suit and calling itself 'fair play'.
Choose your words carefully if you plan to play agitator.

Re: "fighting in the streets"--
I would like to point out that despite our highfalutin' idealism, revolution and/or coups are rarely accomplished bloodlessly; by 'bloodless' I do not mean body count, though that is an unfortunate reality, but rather mass injury.
Injury on both a wide psychological level, verging on trauma (which isn't a stretch, considering political ideologies as they are) and injury on a simple physical level, going from the boo-boo of a scraped knee to bystanders being crippled & comatose.
I'd love to avoid that scenario, but once a certain level of streetwide hysteria takes hold (often aggrevated by armed resistance from either authorities or fellow protestors) things will escalate. And continue to escalate until the tenuous framework of the 'demonstration/riot' can no longer maintain [said frame's strength being defined by constraints of urban geography i.e. the city itself, the citizens, resources, funds, resistance, and ratio of setback to accomplishment].
In short, riot behavior more often burns itself out than is suppressed.
What we should be shooting for are demonstrations where it has the lowest probablity possible of escalating into a riot, because at that point, all is lost to King Mob.

....And would you honestly dis the police as much if the guy who got shot was a neo-nazi, in a right wing demonstration?

Life is life. Take that as you will.

[ 01-07-2001: Message edited by: Leisure Butcher ]
 
 
Axel Lambert
13:40 / 01.07.01
I've now carefully reread my previous posting in this thread, and I truly cannot see where it is I that I sound bitchy (the 'you wanna throw me out' remark was half intended as a joke). But since both Haus and Leisure have complained about my tone, I guess there is some unwanted bitchiness in it. Sincere appologies if that was the case. Really.

I just wanted to express the sadness I felt when so many of this wonderful forum expressed an understanding towards the masked rioters in Gothenburg, my home town, and a stern criticism of the police, who, by and large, I think did a decent job. This feeling was of course amplified when Haus explicitly said that my views on the matter were laughable.

I never thought anybody wanted to throw me out.
 
 
deletia
14:52 / 01.07.01
Wow, Herry, it just....I don't know who posted that...stuff. It wasn't me. I would never want you to feel like I had anything other than love for you. Yeah, maybe it's a dirty word around here, but love.

Was it not you? Our mistake. Still, on the bright side, Gothemberg had one hell of a party and only the bad guys got shot. Listen to the non-italicised fuckhead. Love. Hmmmm....love.

But your personal feelings, although naturally valid, are not the point. Whether we should collectively give sympathy for the armed, bullet-shooting, protestor (or rioter, or whatever you want to call him)-hospitalising police force, or give sympathy for the view that we should give sympathy for...see above.


Sorry, did I drop off again? This chanting is really....relaxing.
 
 
Jackie Susann
20:59 / 01.07.01
Harry, have you made any attempt to get the perspective of the people you deride as "organised rioters"? Maybe if you tried, say, looking at the many reports on swedish indymedia - i.e., getting information about the protests from sympathetic, non-corporate participants and observers - people would be less inclined to think your opinions are comical.

And, in general, any time heavily armed riot cops shoot rock-throwing trouble-makers, the sympathy of most people around here is probably going to be for the victims.
 
 
Ganesh
07:27 / 02.07.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Love:
In general, you'll be able to tell if you have gone too far when a decent minority within the board starts taking the piss out of you. See (or rather ask a policeman about) Weaken the Stronghold, Is Morrison Gay?, and (for that matter) is Morrison afraid of Moore? for reference.


The latter two examples were, in any case, pisstakes in themselves - or, at least, not-entirely-successful attempts at a shared fiction suit ('Ho Garden') with a specific agenda...
 
 
Ganesh
07:29 / 02.07.01
Not Harry. Me and Glass Act.
 
 
deletia
07:29 / 02.07.01
That's right. Silly old me. Tchuh. Forget my own head next. Must be the herbal ecstasy.

You guys. You crazy guys.

Guys?
Guys?
 
 
Axel Lambert
11:46 / 02.07.01
Jackie, you might not believe this, but I actually sympathise with the demonstrators in many respects. The first night I went to a "Freedom of speech" festival where a million different organisations took the piss out of Bush and the EU. (And watched a band called Silverbullit: check it out, guys.) Even though I'm largely positive towards the EU, I understand the criticism of bureaucracy and the closed borders. I admired the efforts made by both the organizers and the city of Gbg to make the protests as free and as peaceful as possible. I think the police made a mistake in surrounding the Hvitfeldtska college, and a terrible mistake, of course, in using their guns.

But I also have seen the TV images of seemingly coreographed masked people throwing stones (aimed at the horses, according to the policemen; seven police horses had to be killed afterwards) at retreating riding police, and of the utter destruction of the centre of town, with shops and banks and cafés smashed and burned. A destruction that seems to have been planned beforehand - police found list of what should be destroyed.

The guy who was shot actually is a neighbour of my parents. It is really sad the whole thing.

Leisure: sorry about the use of 'embrace' (great band, though); English is not my first language.
 
 
Robot Man Reformed
13:50 / 02.07.01
quote:reidcourchie wrote:
There seems to be an implied threat that if you do not conform any ideas you propose will be met not with discussion but with derision and sarcasm.

Does anybody else feel that way?


Oh but reidcourchie, such has always been the way of followers and such will they remain until they wisen up.

Believe me, I write this with painful memories of experience.
 
 
deletia
13:59 / 02.07.01
But thank CHRIST you are now free, and so much better than the rest of us for it!

Jesus. I shed my skin just in time. The hippy would have died.

If you are free and wise, DisObedientDrone, read this thread, understand what it is about and post something useful. We would all be very grateful.
 
 
Robot Man Reformed
14:06 / 02.07.01
quote:The Haus of Thorns wrote:
But thank CHRIST you are now free, and so much better than the rest of us for it!

Jesus. I shed my skin just in time. The hippy would have died.

If you are free and wise, DisObedientDrone, read this thread, understand what it is about and post something useful. We would all be very grateful.


reidcourchie, the above qoute's p(r)oof in the flesh.
 
 
deletia
14:11 / 02.07.01
How very...reductive.

My request was only that you add something useful to the thread, since you are keen to take part in it, rather than vatic utterancea about how unenlightened people are (compared to you and your sexy experience).

Can you do it?
 
 
Ellis
14:14 / 02.07.01
quote:Originally posted by DisObedientDrone:


Oh but reidcourchie, such has always been the way of followers and such will they remain until they wisen up.


Who or what do you think we follow?
 
 
deletia
14:19 / 02.07.01
I think DOD is part of the ReformedRobotMan reserve, and therefore presumably we follow the nonce woofter illuminati. See the humorous correption of "proof" and "poof", through the use of brackets, thus. "P(r)oof".

But I could be wrong.
 
 
Robot Man Reformed
14:25 / 02.07.01
quote:The Haus of Thorns wrote:
How very...reductive.

My request was only that you add something useful to the thread, since you are keen to take part in it, rather than vatic utterancea about how unenlightened people are (compared to you and your sexy experience).

Can you do it?


To answer your last sentence, I just did.

Stupid.
 
 
Robot Man Reformed
14:32 / 02.07.01
quote:The Haus of Thorns wrote:
I think DOD is part of the ReformedRobotMan reserve, and therefore presumably we follow the nonce woofter Illuminati. See the humorous correption of "proof" and "poof", through the use of brackets, thus. "P(r)oof".

But I could be wrong.


Guided currents, is all.
 
 
deletia
14:34 / 02.07.01
No, my little Danish friend, you made another vague sweep of the hand, saying "no, look, you see, this just proves my point!"

And what was your point?

"Um...that that thing before just proved my point."

And none of this is adding anything relevant to the subject under discussion.

I you can converse rationally and relevantly, please do so. If you are just a busted brain-flush, then please acknowledge that and try not to obscure the actual conversation with your guttural moans or pathological masturbation. Your difficulty in dealing with simple concepts will only lead to rot just like this in the grown-up threads.

Try the Conversation. It's a much broader remit. Posts are deleted, so people don't mind irrelevancy or stupidity nearly as much.

In the meantime, there seems little point in continuing to acknowledge you unless you manage something a little more fulsome and a little more useful. Bye for now. Twart.

[ 02-07-2001: Message edited by: The Haus of Thorns ]
 
 
Robot Man Reformed
14:48 / 02.07.01
It was a relevant quote from page one of this thread, I didn't think there was an adequate debate about reidcourchie's raised questions and hoped to spark one in the direction which I find intriguing, no less than your attempts at reducing my points to vague phrases, is your drivel necessary?

Is mine?

Who are you to determine? Who are you to put the dress of plurality of the whole board? Who are you to react in exactly the same manner from yore's past?
 
 
Robot Man Reformed
15:00 / 02.07.01
quote:The Haus of Thorns wrote:
No, my little Danish friend, you made another vague sweep of the hand, saying "no, look, you see, this just proves my point.

And what was your point?

"Um...that that thing before just proved my point."

And none of this is adding anything relevant to the subject under discussion.

I you can converse rationally and relevantly, please do so. If you are just a busted brain-flush, then please acknowledge that and try not to obscure the actual conversation with your guttural moans or pathological masturbation. Your difficulty in dealing with simple concepts will only lead to rot just like this in the grown-up threads.

Try the Conversation. It's a much broader remit. Posts are deleted, so people don't mind irrelevancy or stupidity nearly as much.

In the meantime there seems little point in continuing to acknowledge you unless you manage something a little more fulsome and a little more useful. Bye for now.

Twart.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:10 / 02.07.01
This is going sharply downhill from (yet another) thread about how we ought to go about doing whateverthehell it is we do here to an example of how it can go wrong.
 
 
deletia
17:25 / 02.07.01
As ever, Nick, you are our conscience, and I defer to you. While, however, humbly submitting that a discussion of how unenlightened we all were, and our need to "wisen up", was never slated for this topic, nor is it a natural evolution.

Thus, I would politely suggest that, should DOD wish to talk about this, he sets up a thread for it. I believe the name "Weaken the Stronghold" is not currently in use.
 
 
Jackie Susann
20:14 / 02.07.01
Harry, I wasn't saying you hadn't tried to get the protestor's side, just that it didn't come across that way in your posts. And I still find a lot of what you're saying quite weird - the rock-throwers were choreographed? How do you arrange something like that? And what the hell was this "list" the cops found? "Things to trash: 1) McDonalds. 2) Starbucks. 3) Our image as peaceful protestors." I mean, it sounds like the most absurd piece of fake evidence ever - can you post a link to a news report about it or something? It sounds hilarious.
 
  

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