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Underground > Comic Books >

I want my Flex Mentallo!

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08:12 / 11.03.02

quote:Originally posted by videodrome:
MiKL, I took the liberty of adding a copy of the browsing file you made, with alterations to use the fourth issue's files.

How did you dare?

No, you was right

A

08:07 / 12.03.02

So, does anyone else want to put some out-of-print Grant Morrison stuff on the net for the rest of us to enjoy? Sebastian O? Kid Eternity? Zenith?

I've got a few of his 2000AD "Future Shock" (or whatever the hell they were called" strips that i could scan and put up, as well as St. Swithin's Day and some other stuff. Does anyone else want to scan anything else and put it up? It should probably be stuff that is unlikely to be reprinted soon...

anyone?

Murray Hamhandler

17:44 / 12.03.02

Don't get me started.
I'm all for the dissemination by any means of all artistic work that isn't currently being kept in print by whoever holds the rights to it. I'm not for ripping people off if they're making money off of the stuff, but I think it's unfair that there's so much work that people want to read (or hear or see) just lying around and gathering dust.
So consider that a thumbs up from me for whoever wants to contribute to the cause.
Arthur Sudnam, II

The Sinister Haiku Bureau

17:55 / 12.03.02

Yeah, I'd consider it a good thing if people would do more scannings and postings... I *might* be able to get access to a colour scanner in a couple of weeks, and have about ten copies of zenith, most of animal man (disappointingly, not 24 or 26, which I hear are brilliant), and most of doom patrol (only grant's run). So, on the fairly large IF i can scan stuff, which would be best to do? I don't exactly fancy the prospect of scanning in 40-odd issues of doom patrol. Also, are the Powers That Be planning on releasing TPBs of Zenith and the rest of Animal Man? I asked in Forbidden planet when the Zenith Trade was coming out and was told it wasn't, due to the people releasing it not having permission from the people creating it- anyone know the full story?
And I'd love to read St Swithin's day....
Also, *if* I'm able to scan them, I'm not sure how I'd distribute them. Would I, in the event of my actually being able to scan them, be able to upload them to Videodrome's, or anybody else's ftp server?

[ 12-03-2002: Message edited by: Johnny Haiku ]

20:50 / 12.03.02

Might be able to use mine. The Flex files have eaten about a fifth of my bandwidth for the month at this point, so at the end of the month I'll be more able to say whether I'll host more stuff or not.

I have the Sebastian O issues, or the first two at least, and when I'm done with the project I'm working on I can scan and post those. Coincidentally, that will also be at the end of the month...

Oh, and this has been edited to indicate that I agree with the sentiment posted above - that if copyright holders can't be arsed to keep material in print, others should take up the slack. But I won't ever host anything that's in print, particularly by someone I like.

[ 12-03-2002: Message edited by: videodrome ]

Murray Hamhandler

00:58 / 13.03.02

The second Animal Man TPB is forthcoming sometime this year. No date set yet, as far as I know.
Arthur Sudnam, II

13:47 / 13.03.02

In a few weeks time I could manage to do some scans of some of GM's earlier work which seems to be a little harder to come by (a couple of "Spiderman & Zoids", Action Force Monthly #17, "Abraxas" Prologues 1 & 2, "The Liberators" Part 1 from Warrior #26, some Dr Who Monthly things, etc). The only problem is that I'd have to email them to somebody who could put them "out there" as I don't have a website. It would probably be a good idea to put together a "most wanted" list to see what can be done.

Bear with me if this has been done to death but is there probably someplace or thread for an exchange of copies from Grant's scripts?

15:15 / 13.03.02

Hey everyone. Sorry to put my cock in the punch bowl here, but you might want to consider being a little more cautious about this, or even drop the enterprise entirely. There's no way to tell for sure which of these comics will or will not be reprinted, and even if it seems unlikely that they will be reprinted, the creators involved might feel stiffed that they aren't getting royalties, or that this might hurt their chances of this happening.

People involved creatively and editorially on these stories have been known to drop in here from time to time, so be careful.

Matthew Fluxington

16:57 / 13.03.02

I agree with Moriarty. I think that this might not be the best idea. Perhaps instead of having this be online, a better idea would be for people to arrange trades with Videodrome in which he burns cd-rs or makes zip discs with the contents, rather than have it be online.

17:08 / 13.03.02

Of course it might also be an idea to e-mail Mr Morrison C/O his website and see what he thinks himself...

17:42 / 13.03.02

To be honest, it might even be a good idea to delete this thread, especially if anyone is thinking of contacting Morrison. This isn't a threat, just a suggestion. While I wouldn't presume to know what his reaction might be, he may not look favourably at someone making his comic work available for free online.

Also, keep in mind that there are other creators (and companies) involved in these stories besides Morrison. It's not just up to him exclusively to decide if they can be made available or not.

Murray Hamhandler

18:16 / 13.03.02

I hold to my previous position on the subject (as in I have no moral qualms about it if it's not in print and no one is making any money from it), but I concur about this all being too out in the open. When I had the Invisibles issues scanned and on the net, I had the parties interested in reading them e-mail me. I then sent those people the links to the pages. Now that the issues in question have been reprinted, they are no longer on my site. This, in my opinion, is the way that things should be done if they're going to be done.
Arthur Sudnam, II

Murray Hamhandler

18:18 / 13.03.02

Also: Tom could be held liable if people are caught doling out scanned comics via the board. So we should definitely look into other avenues.
Arthur Sudnam, II

18:22 / 13.03.02

Again, I'm not going to go into a debate about the moral implications of this. Not my business. And odds are this won't reflect badly on Tom or the board. I'm just thinking in terms of the various people involved in this project.

Maybe you could provide a link to the comics in question via your profile. That way it's available, but not as in the open.

20:01 / 13.03.02

I agree that going any further with this in the open is likely to become a Bad Thing. I guess I should also state that I'm not really looking for anything - I have most of Grant's stuff and what I don't have, I don't have time for in the near future. The Flex posts were the result of available issues, time and storage space. As those factors were all present, and I couldn't find that issues at any of six local shops (yeah, I looked) I could see no reason not to post them. They will likely stay on the FTP for another week or two, after which I'll either lose them or move them to a password protected directory, which could be accessed via PM or e-mail. I have no interest in becoming any sort of free repository for material like this - not that I think that's believed or implied, but it's worth stating. That's because of two things: the potential legal hassle, and more important, the fact that I need that space and bandwidth for other things I will have on-line shortly. So. Get 'em while you can.

I may still be persuaded to host extremely hard-to-find material, but I just want to make clear that I have neither the time nor interest to become the nexus of a Morrison/comics trading network. (Again, that wasn't implied before by Flux or anyone - I'm just making my position clear.)

20:12 / 13.03.02

Ladies and gentlemen.... I think that this has gone on far enough, frankly...

I received an e-mail from Kristan today expressing her anxiety about this thread and its affect upon Grant and his livelihood and intellectual property.

Flex Mentallo is one thing - after all it's been completely available online - for good or ill - over on this site for a good few years already... But as I've said to a couple of you independently, this is turning into a rather more systematic operation and as such I think it is completely innappropriate...

Whatever your position on copyright laws, intellectual property and the like, Grant has a more than reasonable right to make some money off the work that he's created over the last fifteen/twenty odd years - and the rapid pirate distribution of large tracts of his income-producing product is (I think) disrespectful, damaging and, well basically wrong...

And if that doesn't matter to you, then bear in mind that I don't think anyone on the board would like to seriously sour our relationship with Grant - or force him into a situation where he feels he has to fight his fans for his right to earn a living.

Whatever else happens, I'm certainly not prepared to have barbelith become a systematic bootlegging operation - just because it's not a particularly noble or moral thing to do, and also because I don't want the legal difficulties of having DC or Marvel breathing down my neck. They'd almost certainly have every right to do so already...

I'm going to conceal the location of the files already posted to the board and express my opinion that you should take down the files from full public accessibility on the net...

00:03 / 14.03.02

I'll get behind that. As I implied earlier, I have no interest in taking money from Mr. Morrison's pocket. If nothing else, I hope that representatives of DC can take this thread as indicative of the market power behind some of their not-in-print holdings, and act to make titles like Flex Mentallo available.

Murray Hamhandler

01:33 / 14.03.02

Getting past all of the touchy issues and looking at this from a more objective standpoint, I'm curious about the notion that this is taking money out of Grant's pockets. Where is this idea coming from? I'm not trying to be snide. I'm just genuinely curious. Is there something I'm overlooking? We're talking about material that no one but comic store retailers are making money off of at the moment as it's out of print. Those willing to post the material on the internet aren't making money off of it. If anything, it gives those who are interested a chance to read some of Grant's more obscure work and I think that can only increase sales on his stuff that's in print. Right? Like I said, maybe there's something I'm missing. Turning the focus on myself...if I were the creator of something that was owned by a large company that was either unwilling or unable to make my creation available to the public, I'd be thrilled if people were disseminating the work under the table. I don't think that Grant created Flex Mentallo with the intention of no one being able to read it. I could be wrong, though. Thoughts on the subject in a broader context, anyone?
Arthur Sudnam, II

06:16 / 14.03.02

well, we don't know if any of these things will be reprinted in the FUTURE. if by that time the pages have been scanned and distributed everywhere, it it would too late. you can't undo net distribution, that's for sure.

for another thing, perhaps these things could one day be made available online OFFICIALLY, by the publishers or creators, and again the bootlegging would damage that enterprise.

for all we know, grant is constantly on the brink of making a deal to reprint any of these things, and therefore free and illegal distribution would screw him over.

07:06 / 14.03.02

This is essentially the case. As Kristan explained to me in her e-mail, not being ABLE to reprint something at the moment is not the same as not WANTING to in the future - and (as an example) she cites the upcoming Animal Man trade paperback...

So we're not talking about revenue NOW but revenue from the future...

And bear in mind that even if we did get Grant's silent assent to scan and publish some of his rarer, more obscure and less-likely to be reprinted work on the net - much of the time he wouldn't be able to legally GIVE that permission since for some of his earlier stuff at least, he's probably not the only person whose permission you would need.

Perhaps we should talk to him about a piece of internet publishing? Perhaps Cameron would be interested in a small Grant side-project - a couple of pages a month say - direct to the interhighweb?

07:20 / 14.03.02

And under the Barbelith banner, too. Sounds capital.

19:26 / 14.03.02

is there anyone here once they had copies of Flex (or any other comic) on their computer then not buy it in real life if it were available?
i for one would like the real thing. so putting copies on the net doesn't sound too bad to me.

09:59 / 15.03.02

When talking about Barbelith as a microcosm, I think you're right, 08. But it's the same with music - I download tons of stuff, but when I listen to any of it more than a few times I buy it, especially if it's an indie release. I'm happy to give artists my money, and I think everyone here feels the same way about Grant. But then, someone does a Google search for Flex Mentallo, ends up with my FTP, and an unintentional distribution network is created. That's not what I intended when I made the issues available to people here, and I'm sure that's what Kristin or whoever is concerned about. We can't control what goes on beyond BU's borders.

Our Lady of The Two Towers

12:33 / 15.03.02

I guess the problem is really one of simularity, ie; legally there is no difference between scanning hard to obtain copies of Flex Mentallo and every page of the latest John Grisham and putting it on the web. In both cases it is breaking a copyright, something I guess Tom would prefer not to be involved with.

13:18 / 16.03.02

So I went off to Forbidden Planet, it being the only local comics shop, looking for some X-Force.

And they had a sale of back issues on.

So I came away instead with Invisibles vol3 numbers 11, 9, 8, 7 and 5, and crucially, Flex Mentallo 4.

For a quid each.

I felt good. Now I need to fill in the gaps.

02:16 / 17.03.02

Hey, So I did a google search for flex and I found this page.
http://www.kentlaw.edu/student_orgs/jip/trade/Atlas.htm

So doesn't this mean DC could go ahead and reprint the damn things? I mean, *I* have the issues, but I know I'd buy the trade if it came out.

z

18:22 / 17.03.02

We've actually touched on this a little earlier in the thread, Monkey Boy. Even though a small horde of fanboys would love to see this reprinted, the time and money poured into DC's legal defense has probably put a nasty taste in their mouth. Hard as it is to believe, but any reprints of the issues containing Flex probably aren't worth considering in the grand scheme of things.

16:53 / 19.08.03

Did you all see the report in Rich Johnston's latest column about there being an Italian reprint of FLEX MENTALLO paperback because of some legal loophole? But it's in Italian.

Couldn't Morrison do a spell or sigil to make it legally possible for DC to do a FLEX paperback -- in English?

With all his magickal power, I bet he could make it so.

Matthew Fluxington

16:57 / 19.08.03

If he really had magical powers, I really do hope he'd try to be more useful than that.

19:16 / 19.08.03

I've said it before and I'll say it again; Bob Wayne told a bunch of fans at an earlier convention that reprinting the Flex Mentallo series isn't out of the question. DC are aware of the demand. He said that it's just been put at the end of the line because of other books that are being reprinted (they want to finish the Animal Man trades, and then start with Doom Patrol). When asked how this will affect the Atlas corp. he said that the Atlas copr. would get a small percentage of profits.
The link was posted not to long ago. If it helps any, the source of this info came from the Mike Allred messageboard. Try tryping in yahoo: flex mentallo mike allred message
It should be the first result.

19:59 / 19.08.03

Wow, cool - give Atlas a tiny percentage and let's ROCK WITH FLEX!!!

18:26 / 20.08.03

Great! But meanwhile...

I've got Flex Mentallo 1 and 4, and lately have found another 1 and 4 (life is funny that way) in Amsterdam-area comics shops. Does anyone have an extra 2 and 3 to swap? Also, I saw an Absolute Vertigo in a Haarlem comics shop, for 10 Euros (11 bucks, 7 quid) but didn't buy it since I already have one. If someone's really interested, I can go get it for cost and postage; it'll probably still be there.

(I'll be gone a week starting tomorrow evening, so don't panic if you respond right away but I don't).

17:19 / 17.11.03

Hi All,

Sorry to resurrect this old and anxious thread, but I wanted to comment on a couple of statements made about the Flex Mentallo annotation I've had online for some time. I'm afraid Tom was in error when he wrote that the series was available on my site; it's not there, and never has been.

The Flex annotation was an academic side project I put together years ago while reading Flex for a course seminar. In the past, I did have some scanned pages from the site online, particularly the first pages of issue one, which I wanted to explicate in some detail. I also reproduced a number of panels, all of which were referenced directly in the annotation. In my own interpretation, the references fell well within the bounds of fair use in academic contexts. Given the scarcity of and controversy over the series, it's certainly possible that people disagreed with my interpretation, but the site's held up without dispute for four years (even under the watchful eyes of the lawyers arguing the Atlas vs. DC case), so I feel OK with the decision I made.

Still, I'm fairly sensitive (as you might be able to tell) about the suggestion that my site's a distribution channel for the series, so I've recently removed all images (with the exception of a "front page" panel) and text reproductions from the annotation. I'm trying to make the purpose of the site -- a reading supplement for the series, with no additional agenda -- as unambiguous as possible.

Anyway, thanks for reading, and my apologies if you tried to find the series on my site and failed. Thanks to Tom for letting me on the boards to put in my two cents, and for putting this community in motion in the first place.

--Jason Craft

Dan Fish - @Fish1k

08:20 / 25.11.03

Could that be a Flex Mentallo cameo in Fred The Clown this week?

15:54 / 15.04.04

yep,got all four, they aint cherry any more (wash your hands turn the page), must bought em fresh off the shelf back in '96, wish id got the batman he done as well, wish id got the watchman, and goddamn golden age as well!, caint win em all, though.

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