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Alan Moore

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17:25 / 20.09.02

My Misheard Lada--One of the worst traits of comic book fans today is to impute bad motives to writers or artists whose work they don't enjoy.

I realize that you said that LoEG "reads like" Moore is doing it for the money and to show off his knowledge, but you certainly came off as if you believe that.

You, of course, are completely wrong. I've spoken to Moore about LoEG. He's doing it because he's having fun with it. He enjoys creating this world full of juxtaposed fictional creations, Dracula's castle next to the vampire city of Selene next to the City of Dreadful Night next to Sylvania and Freedonia next to Ruritania. That's -fun- for Moore to do, and it's fun for me to read about.

You don't like it? Fine. But for God's sake don't decide that because you don't enjoy something Moore's obviously whoring himself for money. That's insulting to him, out of character for him, and not worthy of you.

19:30 / 20.09.02

My two favourites - Moore (Idea and excution) Morrison (better at idea).

Nietzsch E. Coyote

21:15 / 20.09.02

now who is better at execution for execution's sake?

Our Lady of The Two Towers

09:54 / 21.09.02

jjnevins- When you want to explain why I'm not allowed to have an opinion then let me know. In the meanwhile I suggest you reread my posts and note that I'm explaining why I don't like some if it, I'm not impugning Alan Moore, just saying what his work seems like to me.

20:40 / 21.09.02

Not much of a Moore fan. I prefer writers who draw. Still, I can admire Moore for constantly trying new things. I don't think ABC is a cash grab. If he wanted that, he had ample opportunity. Watchmen 2? Any corporate owned character?

I thnk he was trying to recreate an older style of comic company. One where there isn't characters sharing a universe, with many different, fantastical topics. Dell, Gold Key, Charlton, etc. I think he got a big idea in his head of doing it all on his own and was trying to diversify the field. Just like a Turok fan might not like Solar, Man of the Atom, with the ABC line you can pick and choose where your interests lie.

20:43 / 21.09.02

I may have brought it up before, but when we were talking about using pre-existing, corporate characters vs. creating your own, it dawned on me that Moore is somewhere in the middle. He takes real, historical figures or characters from the public domain constantly. From Hell, Watchmen (kinda), Lost Girls, LoEG.

The one project of his I want to read the most, and probably never will, is "Outbreak of Violets." It sounds like loads of fun.

The Natural Way

11:22 / 26.09.02

Lada: the thing is, both 'From Hell' AND 'Watchmen' read a shit load better to me as an adult. Yeah, as a kid I was all "woooah, comics aren't for kids anymore!!!!", but the subtlety, the themes, pretty much everything really, was completely lost on me. From Hell is as good as any book, and I think the idea that it's ideally suited to a teen audience reeks of comixshame - "OUR artform isn't as good as THEIR artform...we are geeks....etc..."

And I don't think the ABC line can be reduced to a grubby little money making scheme, either. The League? That labour of love, a pocket liner? Puhleeez.... And Top Ten? And Promethea, Alan's massive MAGICK rant? Money's part of it, sure, but......

15:08 / 26.09.02

Mmmm. And I would suspect, in monetary terms, that the whole ABC line has not brought Moore as much money as selling film rights to 'From Hell' - excepting 'L.O.E.G.', now, of course, as the rights have been sold for that.

If Alan wanted money, surely he would take the dirty dollar that Joey Q is offering, nay begging him to take.

17:42 / 26.09.02

A while back we had a number of discussions about public domain characters in comics and other media. One person who always walked the line was Alan Moore. It seems like most of his works have characters who are drawn from history or public domain fiction.

From Hell - Jack the Ripper.
LoEG - The Invisible Man, Nemo, Quartermain, etc.
Lost Girls - Alice, Dorothy, Wendy.

Then there are the characters that are just a shade different from characters still owned by others. The short list.

Watchmen - The Charleton characters.
Supreme - Superman
Tom Strong - Doc Savage

And, of course, the characters he's worked on in their original form. It seems like Moore really likes working with characters with a history he can play with, or archtypes that are close to the toys he doesn't own, as opposed to creating new characters himself. Other than Constantine, the cast of Big Numbers and Top Ten, I can't think of a single important character that he has created that wasn't derivitive of others. I'm not judging here. It's interesting in that Alan Moore, considered comics' greatest writer, seems to prefer playing in established worlds and making them his own.

Alan Moore has crossed over into finally using public domain comic characters, something we had talked about pretty extensively in the past. The linked article gives a real good overview of what we had previously discussed on the subject. This may be the most high-profile use of public domain comic characters yet.

17:58 / 26.09.02

You wouldn't call Promethea an important and original character?

21:33 / 26.09.02

Actually, I wasn't at all sure of Promethea. I've never read it. The same could be true of other Moore books I haven't read. That's why I said "I can't think of..." as opposed to something more objective.

So, I'll take your word for it!

The Natural Way

08:27 / 27.09.02

Don't buy it, Mori. Regardless of whether or not Moore hijacks other peoples characters....well, actually that's just the point, he HIJACKS them, makes them his. Who gives a fuck if Rory samples the Question? He's nothing like the Question... A million times better, more complex and interesting - he may as well be an "original" creation.

And anyway, what's all this bullshit about "originality", anyway? I think yr forgetting the whole history of art here. S'not "interesting" at all - doesn't tell me anything about Moore as a writer.

13:39 / 27.09.02

Um, I give a fuck. Looking at my previous posts, it looks like I'm trying to slag off Moore, and that he may need defending. Absolutely not the case. I just think he uses pre-existing characters in a way that is completely different (and in many cases better) than anyone else ever has in comics. I'm trying to figure out what that difference is, and why he makes his choices, so I thought I'd post on the board and talk it out.

This all stems from when we were talking about Miracleman here. People kept referring to Moore as Miracleman's creator, when he had actually been created decades before. Someone told me that no one cares what happened pre-Alan Moore. I think Alan Moore must have cared, otherwise, why would he have written that character instead of simply making yet another Captain Marvel clone. I don't think he was being lazy or robbing past artists. I think he chose Miracleman because there was a certain resonance to the character that wouldn't be there otherwise.

Last night, I started thinking of it in terms of music. It's as if he's a conductor trying his variations on old standards and forgotten classics. It doesn't make the conductor any less talented.

13:48 / 29.09.02

Qalyn: Watchmen is the standard text, mcglinchy, which, along with Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, modernized the field of superhero stories.

this is the received gospel these days but in a recent interview morrison tentetively pointed out that in terms of how they've affected the modes of superhero storytelling up to this day Zenith is arguably more influential. I think he may be right.

I think Moore believes firmly in the existence of very real mythopeic qualities extending into the past and future of the characters he writes. to take the easiest example, the flash is hermes is the concept and function of communication. he [re]charges these currents with his imagination every month [yeah right] and sending them to wander in the world abroad so they can still be said to exist for people. Homer never made up any of his characters either.

18:25 / 29.09.02

glassonion, I dunno, I guess it depends on what you mean by 'influential'. Surely Zenith was an early reconstruction of what Watchmen & Dark Knight were deconstructing. I don't know that Zenith would've made any sense to anyone without those. I never read the whole thing, but I remember it as a good yarn that went a little silly after a while -- the constant complaint of Morrison's work. You could probably argue that stories being written today resemble Zenith more than Watchmen, but Watchmen is a pretty good place to start, for a number of reasons.

18:26 / 29.09.02

Also, the question was about Alan Moore, not superheroes in general.

The Natural Way

08:38 / 30.09.02

Zenith? "Silly"?

Still my favourite comic. Perfectly planned and executed. You shouldn't of stopped reading, the end was fantastic. DC Thompson meets HP Lovecraft: mmmm.

"Go!": best panel ever.

yawn - thing's buddy

15:07 / 30.09.02

yeah. Zenith - natch! (whatever that means)

Read the interview too runce (dez skinn's dirty rag weren't it - a perfectly formed little interview which probably signals morrison's new direction - sheer lunacy in the face of the current ultra conservative wig which is currently being worn (soon to be shorn) - note the return of gorilla grod shtuff in his recent column. Back to the interview - he name-checked Brendan McCarthy (shall we expect a revival? shall we create it? Shall we demand that Rebellion publish a glossy one shot (oo-er) compiling all the one page sooner or later's he did with milligan deep in the heart of darkest thatcher-scratched britain? (tawkin nine -een eigh-ee six maiht))

yeah the interview: he's so right. zenith was the influence behind thority-scope, yknow, dat widescreen shit which seemd innovative even though you knew you'd seen it before and not in JLA like Morrison said originally.

You saw it in Zenith!

You never seen so many superheores since Crisis. Member book 3 - literally millions of the fuckers. The pacing, the panel switchin' goin down, widescreen, tallscreen, split screen, anti-zeniths, plink!, as you can see I can go on - fuckin obvious - zenith is the template for all of that shit we've been excited about in the last few years (all that shit in superhero coms that isn't moore or morrison that is)

I knew this all along. But forgot. sort off. Anamnesis. thank you.

Yeah - roll on Xmen 150 and the new era of lo-fi weirdness. It's all going to get silly....

clever

...and dark.

I hope.

16:03 / 30.09.02

Runce, I know this is apostacy around here but I think Lovecraft is silly. The word "Shub Niggurath" makes me titter. Also, the 2000 AD Prog format always struck me as choppy & inelegant. Zenith was excellent,though, and maybe the first of the 'reconstructed' superhero books (this would need a little research, probly). I can see it being influential on Morrison's own work, but I think if you go any further than that you're stretching the application of "influence". But I'm not shitting on Zenith here, just arguing that Watchmen deserves its place in the 'received gospel'. Would Morrison have been able to write about a selfish superhero before Watchmen/Dark Knight?

yawn - thing's buddy

16:51 / 30.09.02

Qalyn: maybe you're goading me. Your question about selfish superheroes and Zenith not being posss without Watchy and Darky?

Zenith is quite clearly grounded in Paradax(1984) and Moore's Miracleman (1981?) - both of which featured super-selfish-heroes: Miracleman had serious selfish ubermen; paradax had sexy, poppy selfish superpeeps.

Zenith was both these things.

The point about influence is getting confused anyway - Watchy/Darky influenced the 86-92 era of supo-comics and Zenith'e echo bounced back towards the end of the nineties.

17:07 / 30.09.02

Heh, no I didn't mean to goad anyone. Sorry. You're right that I'm being foggy about Watchmen/Miracleman. I tend to think of Miracleman as Adrian Veidt with powers. Yr last paragraph sums up my argument perfectly.

yawn - thing's buddy

17:22 / 30.09.02

no apologies required. I'm just trying to assert myself as 'Yawn' aqgain: yknow - friendly/agressive. Had another suit on for while which failed me badly. Voice was strangled, confused.

I think I'm a one suit poster at heart.

yawn - thing's buddy

17:25 / 30.09.02

just noticed: mean't to say, i read the interview too, to GlassOnion, not runce.

i always get youse confuse

dih.

God that awful Madonna Bond song is on - so shite.

yawn - thing's buddy

18:09 / 30.09.02

Qalyn: you tend to think of Miracleman as Adrian Veidt with powers? I tend to think of Adrian Veidt as Mason with powers. But I suppose they're both just Bruce Wayne.

00:07 / 01.10.02

Mason?

23:44 / 13.10.02

If anyone is interested in helping me with doing annotations for Alan Moore's Promethea you can write to me at eroomnala@yahoo.com.au. The annotations can be found here.

ONLY NICE THINGS

00:14 / 14.10.02

Has nobody mentioned Maxwell the Magic Cat yet? After a shaky start it absolutely kicked the arse of Watchmen and Miracleman, with fine, focused narrative, strong characters and terrific economy of language.

23:02 / 16.10.02

Zenith is clearly GM's take on Miracleman, but boy did he run with that ball...

The most obvious Watchmen clone has to be New Statesmen in Crisis. But please don't take me back there. It's been a nice day and there are some areas of comic history that are too depressing to revisit...

Meanwhile, LOEG Vol II is shaping up to be a true Moore classic.

09:52 / 17.10.02

The last Promethea was bollocks though, wasn't it?

"I'm going to take my clothes off. I need to be naked in this... experience"

i don't think he did that for titillation, but that's a terrible line in any circumstance. WRONG!

12:44 / 17.10.02

Mmmm. I like Promethea, but the dialogue does seem awful forced sometimes - embarrassing, on occasion.

18:14 / 14.04.03

any way to get a hold of a zenith collection fellas?it's the only morrison i lack,along with the first issue of flex.any info?

18:58 / 14.04.03

http://www.barbelith.com/underground/topic.php?id=3070

I'm now convinced that I'm the only person here who can see the search function in this forum.

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