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Underground > Comic Books >

New X-Men #117

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Ronald Thomas Clontle

09:38 / 01.10.01

quote:Originally posted by elephanthead:

If someone can point me to a good site to catch up on my X-Men back story, I'd appreciate it. It's been a good long time since I picked up this title and I'm realizing how much I've missed.
!

If you look around the back pages of the comics forum here, there is a thread in which me and some other guy pretty much detail the history of the X-Men from the point when Claremont took over in the mid-70s straight up to the issue just before Grant started. I would suggest looking for that, because I think I did a pretty good job, honestly.

deletia

09:38 / 01.10.01

quote:Originally posted by Flux = Rad:

VanSciver's art is pretty inappropriate, if just because the contrast with Frank is so great...would it kill them to find a fill-in who can at least draw something like him?

I agree entirely. Hey, when Claremont left X-Men I was fucking livid that they didn't get a replacement who wrote like him.

Our Lady of The Two Towers

09:38 / 01.10.01

So this is "please find someone who draws ridiculous pouty lips and makes everyone either 8 feet tall or squat and fat?" Just so long as he sorts out his proportions I wouldn't mind Van-wossname staying, his Beast was so much better and feral than Franks. Frank's Beast DID look like Tony the Tiger on steroids, Van-thingy's looked like an Animal.

But down with Individuality! Up with conformity! We love Big Brother etc...

deletia

09:38 / 01.10.01

Kind of my point - it seems terribly dangerous to encourage inferior imitators of an artist's style to fill in for that artist - you'd end up with Quitely in one corner and Hitch in another, with imitators of both picking up the gaps in their workloads.

Hey, let's get Liefeld in. Always wanted to know what Wolverine would look like in an amateur boxing helmet...

Ronald Thomas Clontle

11:46 / 01.10.01

I don't think it's all that dangerous to push Hitch and Quitely (and VanSciver as well, to some degree) as people for aspiring comics artists to emulate, because the things that should be imitated from their work should be things that ought to be essential to the craft anyway -

* excellent storytelling, pacing, page layout

* accurate and realistic drawings of backgrounds, objects, and humans (even in spite of Quitely's minor quirks...)

* clean, smooth line quality as opposed to scratchy Neal Adams/Jim Lee over-crosshatched nonsense (this is the thing that bugs me about VanSciver---this and the way he draws Cyclops...)

11:59 / 01.10.01

flux-- i think what should be emulated from quitely and hitch et al by the next generation is their craft rather than theirstyle.

deletia

12:08 / 01.10.01

Thank you, Sleaze. Exactly.

Ronald Thomas Clontle

13:09 / 01.10.01

quote:Originally posted by sleazenation:
flux-- i think what should be emulated from quitely and hitch et al by the next generation is their craft rather than theirstyle.

but isn't that more or less what I said?

deletia

13:18 / 01.10.01

<Slowly and carefully>
The distinction being drawn is between having similar *values* to another artist (or penciller, or inker, or whatever) and slavishly imitating the look of the pages they produce. I was and am of the opinion that getting somebody to make up for Quitely's painstaking working practises who can do a decent imitation of Frank Quitely as a very silly idea - it may make the pages of a graphic novel look reasonably similar, but it also means that whole chunks of it will be done by somebody whose one qualification is to be an inferior imitator of the main artist. Can't do much for the artist's self-esteem, either.

To define "imitation" (or "emulation") as sharing a belief that comic art should support the narrative and generally be good is so vague is to be meaningless.
</slowly and carefully>

Regrettable Juvenilia

13:26 / 01.10.01

I think that was what you were saying, Flux, at least the second time...

Plot question: in the New X-Men Annual, which takes place after #116, Domino says Xavier has outed himself and opened X-Corporation offices around the world... Surely this means that the X-Corporation is in fact Cassandra Nova's idea?? If so, what purpose does it serve? Doesn't what we know now also mean that letting Emma Frost join the X-Men/teaching staff was also Nova's idea? What if Emma Frost is working for her (think about it...)?

13:54 / 01.10.01

correct me if i'm wrong but hasn't emma already served on the teached staff at xaviers (as teacher to generation x) so her resumption of that role would hardly be too out of character... also if an evil miss frost was placed on the staff why then select jean to be head mistriss?

Ronald Thomas Clontle

14:03 / 01.10.01

Ah, I didn't think about the X-Corporation being Cassandra's idea... hmm. good point.

I don't think Emma has anything to do with Cassandra though.

Since it's pretty clear that the annual takes place after 117, it looks like Beast recovers well, and isn't terribly troubled by much of anything...

14:06 / 01.10.01

actually i think that the annul occurs between 116 and 117(ie when it was supposed to be published)

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:07 / 01.10.01

quote:Originally posted by Flux = Rad:
Since it's pretty clear that the annual takes place after 117...

How so? Because Xorn wasn't in #117? I assumed he was hiding somewhere lest he burn a kid's face off or something...

14:13 / 01.10.01

x

Jack The Bodiless

14:16 / 01.10.01

Just an aside, relating to the last few posts... doesn't 'excorporation' mean something similar to 'out of body'?

Ronald Thomas Clontle

14:17 / 01.10.01

quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Correction:
<Slowly and carefully>To define "imitation" (or "emulation") as sharing a belief that comic art should support the narrative and generally be good is so vague is to be meaningless.
</slowly and carefully>

Well, I don't think it's neccessary to have the person filling in for Frank be a carbon copy, so much as a person whose style isn't completely jarring in contrast. Now what would that mean?

Someone who draws in a style that is smooth, not scratchy...has an ability to draw detailed backgrounds and panels (Van Sciver has this covered...), someone with good design sense in regards to page layout and composition. Someone who won't draw every male character with giant unrealistic muscles and every female as some sort of Hustler reject.

Now, let's just admit it: these are things are extremely uncommon in the world of superhero comics. Most artists who draw superhero comics now can barely handle the basics of illustration, much less compete with a Frank Quitely or a Bryan Hitch. So why not try to get people from the commercial illustration field? Quitely has more in common with those people...

Van Sciver is a pretty close match, I'll admit...I just wish his art looked like less like a fifth rate Neal Adams/George Perez knock off...

I'm starting to fall into that embarassing Internet Armchair Expert mode, so I'd better shut up...

[ 01-10-2001: Message edited by: Flux = Rad ]

deletia

14:30 / 01.10.01

Well, as I would be the first to admit, I know nothing of comics artists. I actually *don't* understand why you need one person to draw them and one to trace in ink...

I'm interested in the idea of drawing from commercial design rather than comics. Hmmmm. Could be interesting - pluses/minuses? Would it ever happen?

Ronald Thomas Clontle

14:42 / 01.10.01

Well, as I would be the first to admit, I know nothing of comics artists.

well, I'm hardly an expert either, but I do have a background in drawing, having gone through several years of art school, two of those being very drawing-intensive...

I actually *don't* understand why you need one person to draw them and one to trace in ink...

I'm sure Cameron could answer this far better, but it is mostly a relic of the old ways of producing comics...it was to make the pages more easily to photograph for film printing. It's still around to a) have a finishing artist who can embellish the art of the pencil artist (create better illusions of depth, lights, darks, shadows, etc), speeding up the creation of page art and b) because it's part of the tradition of making attractive graphic drawings. Look at the colored-directly-from-the-pencils art over in X-Treme X-Men, Wolverine: Origin, Ultimate X-Men... they don't quite have the same punch as inked pages, do they?

I'm interested in the idea of drawing from commercial design rather than comics. Hmmmm. Could be interesting - pluses/minuses? Would it ever happen?

Oh, it's been happening for ages now... a lot of comics artists are really slumming illustrators from the commercial world, it's always been that way. If I recall, isn't that Quitely's background?

If comics paid better, I can assure you, the quality of the art in any given comic would increase by leaps and bounds, because more gifted illustrators would work in the medium, and the inbred uneducated fanboy element would lose quite a bit of its footing...

[ 01-10-2001: Message edited by: Flux = Rad ]

deletia

14:52 / 01.10.01

Thank you, Flux, that was a genuinely informative post from which I have learned a lot. I know Ryan Hughes ended up designing logos and fonts instead of doing comics, but didn't realise it bled the other way as well.

14:55 / 01.10.01

actually on the styles fitting the feel of the story front i am amazed that the big publishers don't do this be design (rather than by accident) more often

cas in point issue 117 would suit a more jarring expressionist style in my opinion to underline the sense of unease created by miss nova's presence and revelation…

Ronald Thomas Clontle

15:39 / 01.10.01

oh, something else to be added:

Since the beginning, it has always been considered good craftmanship and in the spirit of professionalism for pencillers filling in or taking over for another artist on any title to do their best to draw in the style of the person who normally draws the comic. In fact, this is something taught at Joe Kubert's school for aspiring comics artists. His sons practice it... notice how when Andy and Adam Kubert switch off issues on Ultimate X-Men, it's not always noticeable? Hell, I didn't even realise that Andy was even drawing the book til after I had his first two issues for a while...

I wish more talented commercial artists would invade comics, ESPECIALLY graphic designers. Comics, even some of the best looking ones, have very horrible graphic design. I go to school with several hundred young graphic designers, and the worst of them could do better than whoever the hell designs the covers and interior in house text pages in any given comic company. Comics are stuck in the mid-80s at best, in terms of graphic design.

Imagine what the minds of the Designers Republic could do if given free reign over Marvel's graphic design...oh my!

I think the idea of hiring artists based on how suitable they would be for individual stories is an interesting idea...it's worked well in anthology comics, that one Batman comic where each storyline is by a different creative team comes to mind...it is very smart option that could be a good solution to the current comics world plagued by artists who are extremely slow...

[ 01-10-2001: Message edited by: Flux = Rad ]

deletia

15:53 / 01.10.01

Ah, but is this a good thing?

15:54 / 01.10.01

>>I actually *don't* understand why you need one person to draw them and one to trace in ink...<<<

Flux already covered most of the reasons for this, but I've got to point out that inking is not merely tracing. Inkers must be skilled artists in their own right - many pencillers, because of time constraints involved in monthly production (and occasionally a limit to their abilities) draw very rough, sketchy pages that need to be "cleaned up" by the inker, who must be intuitive of the penciller's intent and add clarity and definition to the drawing. I've inked pages that have turned out drastically different than the original pencils - Grant's page in the penultimate Invisibles, for example. I added detail where necessary, removed it where it wasn't, made corrections to some anatomical errors, etc etc. A good inker can rescue bad pencils, and a bad inker can destroy beautiful pencils.

Kevin Smith has a lot to fucking answer for in that bit out of Chasing Amy.

There are some artists whose pencils are good and clean enough to reproduce directly, without ink: Adam Warren, for one, or my friend Karl Kerschl (artist of the upcoming Iceman miniseries from Marvel - it's beautiful, check it out), but personally I'll never abandon ink because there's things I can accomplish with a brush that can never be duplicated with pencil alone.

deletia

15:58 / 01.10.01

quote:Originally posted by CameronStewart:

Flux already covered most of the reasons for this, but I've got to point out that inking is not merely tracing.

That was actually a humorous ref. to Chasing Amy - no inker-baiting was intended.

Interesting to consider that this definition seems to position inking as a *supplement* - something which is added when required to counteract "failures" in the pencilling. Hmmm...

null

16:01 / 01.10.01

It's not always necessarily a failure - it's just that the pencilled pages aren't finished. The art is only final and complete once it's been inked.

Ronald Thomas Clontle

16:03 / 01.10.01

Now, Cameron...I've always thought that the inker must have the most stressful job in the whole process of making comics, in that it must be incredibly easy to make a mistake and ruin the original pencils which are being inked, whether it be by botching a line, or worse spilling ink or some horrible thing like that... obviously, being professional would eliminate a lot of the room for error, but these things must happen sometimes, right? When you are inking, is there a part of you thinking "holy shit, don't fuck up, don't fuck up, don't fuck up..." Am I just projecting my own nervous disposition on a whole field of craftsman?

Haus: Well, I'm not sure if having the artist filling in ape the style of the regular artist is necessarily good or bad---I think it's good in the sense of professionalism, and keeping the readers happy. Remember, it's a business, and these are freelance artists for hire...I think that it makes sense for a fill in to not disturb the flow of the series, I would think that would be an obvious part of the assignment. A regular artist should feel free to be themselves and be as creative as they want to be...I think they have more of a license to do that than the fill-in artist should.

deletia

16:11 / 01.10.01

I see your point. Incidentally, why does Quitely need fill-in artists? Is his style very timne-consuming, or is he overcommitted, or is this compassionate leave of some sort?

16:14 / 01.10.01

>>>it must be incredibly easy to make a mistake and ruin the original pencils which are being inked, whether it be by botching a line, or worse spilling ink or some horrible thing like that... obviously, being professional would eliminate a lot of the room for error, but these things must happen sometimes, right? When you are inking, is there a part of you thinking "holy shit, don't fuck up, don't fuck up, don't fuck up..." <<<

I was incredibly nervous on my first pro gig, but I've been working steadily for several years now and have completely gotten over the anxiety. Experience breeds confidence.

I'm also at the point when mistakes are few and far between - if you're constantly screwing up there's no reason you should be hired as a professional. They do happen on occasion but I generally go with them, incorporate them into the work - if I ink a line that isn't quite the same as the pencil line, unless it drastically affects the look of the drawing (in a negative way) I'll just subtly alter all the adjacent details to accomodate the "mistake." It's far more efficient than stopping to white it out and do it again.

I've never spilled a pot of ink over a page, thank Christ (though I have spilled ink all over my desk and clothes), but in the past I have fumbled the brush and put a big smear of black across a panel, and I've then had to spend an hour very carefully whiting out and redrawing the detail. It sucks.

16:16 / 01.10.01

>>>why does Quitely need fill-in artists?<<<

He's slo-o-o-w. I think it takes him 5 or 6 weeks to pencil a book, as opposed to the standard 4.

To maintain the monthly schedule they have to bring in a fill-in.

[ 01-10-2001: Message edited by: CameronStewart ]

Ronald Thomas Clontle

16:17 / 01.10.01

quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Correction:
I see your point. Incidentally, why does Quitely need fill-in artists? Is his style very timne-consuming, or is he overcommitted, or is this compassionate leave of some sort?

My understanding of why New X-Men has been so late is a combination of Frank's art taking a bit of time (which is understandable...look at some of those pages...marvel at the detail...), and Frank moving from Scotland to the United States in the middle of drawing E Is For Extinction. Van Sciver is on for the next two issues plus 117 to give Frank time to stockpile several consecutive issues, and from there on out, he's to draw 8-9 issues per year, and Van Sciver does the remaining issues. Also, I'm pretty sure that Frank had a shorter deadline for 114 than what is normal, he was hired after Grant was, and there were commitments to do before drawing New X-Men...press junkets, editorial meetings, redesigning the comic from the bottom up, etc.

17:08 / 01.10.01

Inking is scary. All of my cartoonist friends use pigmas (shudder) to ink. Whenever they comment favourably on one of my drawings and ask me how I got so good (their words, not mine) I tell them I used a brush. They never grasp what I'm saying, they keep using pigmas, and they keep asking me the same question as if the answer is ever going to change. It's a shame, because some of them are really talented, and they usually butcher their drawings when they get past the pencilling stage.

And, Cameron, do you actually use a size 6 brush for your inking? Holy fuck! That's huge.

17:29 / 01.10.01

Number 6 all the way, baby. I used to use a 1 for small detail, but eventually dropped it and just learned to develop precise control of the 6 to do fine linework.

6 holds way more ink - less time spent dipping in the pot. Sounds silly but it's true - all those seconds spent refilling the brush, swapping to a smaller one, etc etc really do add up...

The Natural Way

10:30 / 03.10.01

Why do Flux and I think the annual takes place after 117?

1. Because Germ Free Generation includes both Johnny Sublime and Jean left alone to babysit the mansion and the X students - this correlates with the events of the annual.

2. Because, in 117, Wolverine's recuperating after his run in with Cassy. He doesn't mention the further impact of his Chinese adventure. And don't you think he would? Don't you think someone would?

3. AND Don't you think the X Men would waste bugger all time dealing with Sublime after his shenanigans in the annual? I mean, it seems unlikely they'd take a four days off to meditate etc.

Now, I could be wrong about this, but I don't think I am.

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:45 / 03.10.01

BUT equally, if Beast has indeed recovered by the time of the Annual, wouldn't he or someone else mention Xavier being evil?

Unless he has amnesia, which would be a bit... lame.

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