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Jamieon
19:07 / 01.09.01
Whyfore no one talk about excellent comic?

I wan talk.

But tomorrow when less fucked after day with old man.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
19:22 / 01.09.01
I like it a lot thus far... I sorta wish Grant was writing the FF full time. I've always had a familiarity with the FF mythos, but I've never really liked it, but he's made me like it a lot by making all of the male characters believably unlikeable pricks. I really like his take on The Invisible Woman and Alicia Masters... (I really liked that she was invisible while having a conversation with a blind woman...)
I think that if they ever made an FF movie, this would be a great basis for one, as its character based (as opposed to most comic books films), it isn't just some origin story (always a bore), and it's very smart and likeable.

Jae Lee's art suits the story really well, he's improved a lot over the years. Very nice. I'm looking foward to the next two issues.
 
 
klint
09:00 / 02.09.01
quote: Reed's body and brain have become completely malleable. He has thoughts and ideas and sensations we can barely dream of...

I really dug this. Has this always been the explanation for Reed's super-intelligence, or is it a Morrison thing?

Regardless, I'm really enjoying this series thus far. I too would love to see Morisson on the monthly FF (or maybe an Ultimate FF title). Though I'd like to see someone other than Jae Lee draw it. I love Lee's work here (and elsewhere) but the monthly FF would need to be shinier.
 
 
Tom Coates
09:00 / 02.09.01
I like it because it's so clear that Grant is approaching it from an adult position, unafraid to write long involved conversations and character pieces without there being much (if anything) in the way of action, and because he's done what he always does - go back to the essence of the characters and the basic premise of the book and extrapolate from that.

I'm getting increasingly weirded out by Grant's homoerotic fascination with male bodies though...
 
 
Tamayyurt
09:00 / 02.09.01
Huh, how do you mean? Because of the namor? um, that guy's always naked. It's not like grant specified in his scripts: now, I want a hard, glistening submariner to enter the scene wearing nothing but a green thong. I mean, you don't see johnny storm whipping out a flaming cock?

oh, and, 1234 good!
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
09:00 / 02.09.01
Tom, when else has Grant recently written anything blatantly homoerotic, or displayed a fascination with the male body?

I'm just curious, nothing is coming to mind for me...
 
 
Jamieon
09:00 / 02.09.01
The meat:

SPOILERS.

- The liquid, "staring at the fishtank", theme that runs throughout, foreshadowing Namor's arrival.

- Slow conversations about super relationships.

- The dreamlike catharsis of the 4's "trials". Sue's disatisfaction with Reed answered by her predatory lover; Ben's disatisfaction with his body answered by frail, weak humanity.

- "Green glass submarines gliding through undersea palaces made of phosphor and jewelry"

- Alicia explaining that Reed's love for Sue is the inspiration for all his creations.

- And no one came up with the "malleable mind" thing before Grant. It's an extension of the alchemical idea that Reed represents the cosmic element, water (or pure thought), unbounded by normal, human, restrictions. See "Marvel Boy" for a little more info.

- That whole sequence with Doom and Joao. "Your allies in America await your command." menacing stuff. They're coming.

"This moment belongs to silence and hate."

- "You'll sweep through the door in a flurry of newspaper headlines and circuit encrusted tiaras from a parallel reality...."

- The Mole Man emerging from the shadows..... The waiting door.....

"Susan. Let me look at you."

He IS a shark, isn't he?

- "maybe we should find Namor and beat the hell out of him like a couple of buddies..."

- That fucking thing. Soooo Fantastic Four.

- "Flame on."

he fucking lives to say that.

I always loved the FF. They always creeped me up as a kid. They were weirdos who fought weird villains. The Mole Man lurked in the darknesss beneath the surface and could emerge like a twisted little thought whenever he liked..... Annhilus, the screaming death urge...... The Inhumans - the alien minds residing on the dark side of the moon..... The witchy Agatha Harkness...
Grant has succeeded in bringing back the strange energy that, for little me, defined the Four. And there's a wicked sense of humour in this book.

[ 02-09-2001: Message edited by: runt ]
 
 
reidcourchie
13:15 / 02.09.01
Originally posted by Tom Coates

"I like it because it's so clear that Grant is approaching it from an adult position, unafraid to write long involved conversations and character pieces without there being much (if anything) in the way of action, and because he's done what he always does - go back to the essence of the characters and the basic premise of the book and extrapolate from that."

My comic trivia's not what itused to be but before Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns FF along with the Frank Millar Daredevil run where credited with being one of the turning points of a more adult/mature storytelling in comics. I particularly remember one issue dealing with Reed and Sue's relationship and her increasing dissatisfaction at being just a sidekick/ornament for the big brain. It's when she changed her name from Invisible Girl to Woman.

I didn't like the 1st issue but the 2nd issue which I got yesterday was very good. Also I didn't enjoy the X-men story Gronat was doing until the 3rd issue. So is Marvel Boy any good?
 
 
Jamieon
13:25 / 02.09.01
Yes. If you like Horus punking it up.
 
 
reidcourchie
13:33 / 02.09.01
Never given it much thought.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
19:46 / 02.09.01
I just noticed that Jeph Loeb and Carlos Pacheco are leaving the FF...maybe/hopefully Grant can start writing that full-time...
 
 
Tom Coates
06:31 / 03.09.01
Sorry - wrote a long post on homoerotics in Grant's work and then my computer crashed.
 
 
rizla mission
08:40 / 03.09.01
So is FF2 out yet?
 
 
CameronStewart
11:19 / 03.09.01
Ummm....yes....that's what this thread is about...
 
 
Cochese
10:46 / 04.09.01
I thought it was a bit shit actually. Hopefully it'll get better by the last one but it's definitely second fiddle compared to Xmen and marvel boy.
 
 
Ellis
19:53 / 04.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Cochese:
I thought it was a bit shit actually.


Could you say why?
 
 
Ganesh
17:54 / 06.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Tom Coates:
I'm getting increasingly weirded out by Grant's homoerotic fascination with male bodies though...


As opposed to everything else within the superhero genre, y'mean?
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:19 / 06.09.01
Anyone else notice that Dr Doom was playing with a Sculpture of the Invisible Woman... possibly made of Puppetmaster Clay.
He destroyed it just after she had her tantrum & the next time we ...um, "see" her, she's come to her sences.

Could this scheme be the reason Prof. Richards has locked himself in his DEEP THOUGHT chamber... seeking out the answer to Doom's ploy.
 
 
Jamieon
10:15 / 07.09.01
Maybe, but I think it might be more twisty and psychedelic than that.

Doom crushes a little clay Ben as well. Nasty voodoo.

[ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: runt ]
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
17:40 / 09.09.01
reading ish one I was sure mister fantastic was pulling all the strings.....

....deep in thought...

that he's testing the four (or other three) for their weaknesses.

Trad grant plot structure - Janus faced 'leaders' who like to play games.

Deep in thought...mirrored by the subbie rising from the oceanic depths, the moleman crunching up to streetlevel from somewhere underground and grimm going deep into his own shell to find his humanity.
 
 
Jamieon
19:56 / 09.09.01
Yeah, it's definitely a plot twist I've considered.

Although I'm not sure, if we assume the correctness of your theory, that Reed's simply testing their weaknesses: there's an element of catharsis involved. It's as though the four have to purge themselves of their insecurities and negativities by confronting and integrating them.

I do like this idea, it's been my *hot* theory for a little while, but we'll see....

[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: runt ]
 
 
Jamieon
12:04 / 10.09.01
And, after mulling it over a bit more, it seems to me the art is very dreamlike, the characters and situations very exaggerated...... the unconscious desires made visible and all that.

Combine all this with the clay figurine motif that runs throughout and you have the sense of a grand scale conspiracy where the four and their enemies are nothing but pawns in a larger game. Maybe this is Richards attempt to integrate/balance the elements within himself, but, knowing Grant and his penchant for blurring the distinctions between inner and outer, the resolution may be a little harder to deconstruct.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
14:21 / 10.09.01
quote:Originally posted by yawn:
reading ish one I was sure mister fantastic was pulling all the strings.....
that he's testing the four (or other three) for their weaknesses.


That I don't buy. It would be consistent for Professor X or Niles Caulder, but not for Reed Richards. Reed isn't an icy manipulator or a puppetmaster, and he doesn't play games with the people he loves. Besides, he's a creative genius, not a social genius.

What do you think Morrison's Doom has in store for him and Johnny? What weakness will he strike at? I'm guessing he’ll exploit Johnny’s temper and simply blindside Reed.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:23 / 10.09.01
yes - catharsis seems to be involved.

note reed forms a backdrop to doom's musings with jao.

also - the puppet master pose he adopts strung out on his machine in book one.

I agree, this hypo is a bit simplistic and will probably be only part of the story. It's the 'deep in thought' and associated deep metaphors which struck me though.

This appears to be a reflection of grant desire to mine this comic's structure for meaning beyond it's 'freaky superhero team' surface texture.

I like this comic a lot.

if we assume this is reed's game (or whatever) what can we make of grims predicament?

Losing an arm? Is that how The Thing feels? As if he's lost his arm? And then the bedfellow with no bollocks - just what does the Thing have in his pants?

He's also holding Reed responsible for his predicament - but he can't remember what it was that reed did to fuck him up so much. There is talk by blind chick of taking responsibility for ones own predicament - is reed encouraging grim to do this?

I believe this may be a defining element to the story also.
 
 
Jamieon
14:51 / 10.09.01
Ben's being confronted by his childish inability to take responsibility for his own actions. It's convenient to blame Reed, his rocky body and everyone else for all his "problems", but, in the end, it's down to him.... He's fast learning that a frail, weak, human body is the last thing he really wants: He's got to wake up to the fact he's a SUPERHERO and he loves it. The fallen elements have to transcend themselves....

In fact, it occurs to me that it may not really be important what Doom told Ben. It's the fact that it played on Ben's willingness to be betrayed, to be able to blame someone else for his and everyone else's/everything's transformation, that's the real issue here.

This isn't a grim book: the only way for the four to escape being devoured by their negativities is for them to realize just how good they've got it.... how incredible they and their lives are: they're the FANTASTIC FOUR.

Remember Alicia's words to Sue:

"This is just a cycle you always go through. You do know that, don't you?........
All four of you went into space and came back different to everyone else. There's no way back to normal.....
Anyway, you'll be back from whatever new dimension he's discovered, telling me how much you love one another.... You'll sweep through the door in a flurry of newspaper headlines and circuit encrusted tiaras from a parallel reality...."

Fuckin' A! Can I have that lifestyle please?

If this is all Reed's doing, if he is involved (and that Puppet symbolism is there, isn't it? Cheers), then I think it's important to remember that, at whatever level this is all occuring, its clear that some kind of dark, dreamy healing process has been initiated - so it wouldn't be appropriate to describe the instigator (assuming there is one) as an "ice cold Niles Caulder" figure.

Antibodies, nigredo, immunisation, etc.......

Basically, this is the Four on Freud's Couch with a Reichian therapist on hand to fiddle the pressure points, forcing them to relive and scream their traumas out.

[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: runt ]
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
18:23 / 10.09.01
bearing all this is mind, can we expect to see Jonny Storm have his face badly disfigured by the moleman?

How would he cope?

He quite obviously fancies himself. The loss of the girl to his car was no great shake.

He is the classic hetero-poof. Wants to be fancied but does not love others. Fancies himself and seeks to be humiliated by alpha males who are even more gorgeous and stronger than himself. (I mean is he not always fighting the submariner? and losing? I seem to remember mega-male The Silver Surfer, swatting him away with ease too) And he likes to rip into Ben. An ugly cunt.

Storm may well get a glass in his jaw.

Okay - I'm wandering.

Clarfication from Dr Packham please.

Once again - this title is superb.

I hope it doesn't fizzle out.
 
 
Jamieon
21:28 / 24.09.01
Just to tease.





Nasty two day wait.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
18:55 / 25.09.01
looks shite.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:02 / 25.09.01
Hey, it's Constructive Criticism Man! How you been?
 
 
Fiction Suit Five
20:03 / 25.09.01
There's been plenty of stuff on 1234 already, if you go back a few weeks on 'comics'. Alternative world, I reckon...
 
 
Jamieon
20:33 / 25.09.01
I know, I typed loads of it.

I used to be Runt.

And I started this thread a few days after the 2nd issue came out because no-one was talking about 1234, and I felt the discussion needed a breath of fresh air - hence the dumping of the old thread.

God, how boring all this explanation is.

Anyway: seems fitting that this title'll wind up sometime around Halloweenish. Nice and creepy.

I think the "alternative world" theory's a little....ummm...*literal*, don't you?
We know this is some dreamy FF catharsis: distilled 4, all their fears and desires boiled down to a thick concentrate. But if you mean that all the action's taking place in some alternate dimension/whatever then...well, uh uh. What happened to the Thing proves nothing. His body and memory have been regressed to their pre cosmic ray state - he's in the process of trying to remember his future, as it were. But he can't quite put his finger on it yet.

I'm sure there is some weird Dalang style stuff going on behind the curtain, but there's no need for alternate dimensions or any of that crap.

[ 25-09-2001: Message edited by: Deluxe Frunt ]
 
 
makingbombs
09:51 / 26.09.01
I'm not even going to play deep-analysis till I've re-read, but I was impressed with #1 and #2 just because it seemed to be Grant doing the closest thing to flat-out (ahem) "character work" that I've seen for a while. Was never a fan of the FF in more than a generic nostalgia fashion, and in two issues he's made the characters more interesting than I've ever seen them... and, so far, without doing anything to against the spirit of the characters in the first place...

...though I imagine there's a few people who'd disagree with that last part...
 
 
The Natural Way
09:51 / 26.09.01
Not me: the 4 always creeped me out. Anyone who disagrees should check out the early isssues that inspired Grant's mini. Some of that stuff...urghh! The Thing really is miserable and tortured, Johnny's his hotheaded bro and Sue and Reed clearly play the parents. And their enemies.... it's like David Lynch directs: the sunshiney, nuclear family is suddenly confronted by negative zones and screaming death urges (a la Annihilus), and distorted, twisted little id men (the Mole Man) lurking beneath the secure, rational surface of the Baxter Building. Nightmarish stuff - and you should see the covers: some of them moved my bowels.

[ 26-09-2001: Message edited by: young runt ]
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
11:49 / 26.09.01
A question I've always wondered about, but never have seen anything about: At the time of creating the Marvel Universe, did Stan Lee and Jack Kirby have a strong interest in pop psychology, or did their creations just come out that way naively?
 
 
The Natural Way
12:00 / 26.09.01
I don't know, but check out Galactus' eyes in the early issues: the pitiless, infinitely unconcerned gaze of the abyss!

I'm sure Grant will play this up in the Silver Surfer mini.

I love to play with the idea that the "sink suit" is more than just the Star God's armour, but his skin as well. 3D scaffolding, housing vast n dimensional intelligences, allowing them to submerge themselves beneath the waves of the Ketheric sphere (a la the fictionsuits, that are the "characters" in The Invisibles, worn by their Lloigorlike, higher selves in the universe orchards - i.e us/the author).

I've just reread my last sentence. I love the way Grant inspires that kind of weirdtalk.

[ 26-09-2001: Message edited by: young runt ]
 
  

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