Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Comic Books >

X-Men 116 (Spoilers of course!)

Page: 1 2(3)

Jamieon

11:33 / 29.08.01

Just to make sure, maybe? Remember what she says:

"I can snuff out all the mutant minds in existence, but I only want one...."

Hell, remember that she was trying to take over Charles in the first place. Think of the damage she can do wearing Charles' skin.

And, not only that, but I'm not sure her agenda has been made 100% clear yet. It could be "wipe out all pre-existing lifeforms", but that might not be all there is to it........

And as for the cover.

I repeat:

And why did the cover embarrass you, old boy? Is it because someone might catch a glimpse of it and assume all comic readers are a bunch of sex starved dorks? Don't worry about it - stop feeling so guilty. I love the cover, it looks great. And if you expected the White Queen's cover to exclude the rudeness quotient, then obviously your interpretaion of the character differs from mine..... I've said it over on another thread and I'll say it again: That whole look? It's the Hellfire Club in a nutshell, the White Queen in a nutshell. And maybe, just maybe, the idea behind it has less to do with fanboy lust (although I don't rule that aspect of it out) and more to do with the character herself. The comic isn't about the pornographic exploitation of the female; after all, Jean doesn't receive the same treatment. And Wolverine is always getting his kit off...... Are you really telling me his body is normal? Christ, is any mutant's body normal? Their extended body, their powers, are easily sexualised (See Flex Mentallo/your libido).

Aaah, "the male gaze"...... Shades of university.

12:26 / 29.08.01

lozt,
If the midswap theory is true , I reckon nova was pretty close to being beaten and thats why so might have swapped, and also even if she did escpe sh'e hav to deal with the X-men sometime in the future.Why not destroy from within.
And she might have all her abilities intact too.

12:30 / 29.08.01

I'm proud of both my Film Studies A-level and my right-on opinions, damn you.

I have no objection to sexy comic book covers (look at some of Bolland's ones for Invisbles Vol.2 - yikes), just an objection to the defiantly unsexy, totaly predictable, plasticated fan-boy bollocks from which the entire interier of New X Men is trying to escape .. I mean you'd think Frank Quitely could at least have come up with a slightly more interesting angle or something..

12:35 / 29.08.01

quote:Originally posted by The Flyboy:
I also think that having Xavier come out as a mutant and abandon the whole secret identity business is an important part of Grant's plans for the comic, and so he won't render it meaningless by having this not really be the Prof.

So I reread some of the first issue again last night, and I've got to go with Flyboy. It just seems to easy a story line for Grant to take. There's some fun things to do with it, but it just doesn't quite seem to fit.

Another thing I noticed is that Frank seems to be getting better. I'm not one of the legion of fans for the man, but when I compared the art from the first issue with the one from the last, it seemed that he's finally getting a better feel for what the charecters look like. I found his faces in the last issue much less jaring. Though cyc has still got one hell of a long face.

Which brings be to the cover. My problem with it? It was obviously drawn back when Frank was just starting, and doesn't really look like her anymore.

Ellis

12:42 / 29.08.01

I think the last issue looked better due to the inking of Mark Morales (sp?), Tim Townsend did the first two with Morales doing the last, and the improvement is immense.

Jamieon

12:55 / 29.08.01

I'm not sure Cassandra taking out Charles is "too easy". Only because we still haven't established what the relationship is between them. It could all get tres complicated later on..... And while it seems like this is an obvious plot device: well... I didn't think of it. And I bet none of the kids over at Newsarama, etc. thought of it.

New X Men isn't just written for clever, clever Barbelithers, you know.....

Just playing devils advocate. But there is very strong evidence for this.

1. Cassandra did tell Charles "I'll be you now and make you a murderer".

2. She did say she only wanted one mutant mind. Whose if not Charles'?

3. What she says does make sense - is easily convertible from groans and moans to intelligible information.

And Rizla? Give me the love.....

Regrettable Juvenilia

13:03 / 29.08.01

Fo'whaddisworth, I found the theory on the (currently inactive) boards over at X-Fan.

Ronald Thomas Clontle

14:16 / 29.08.01

You know, I totally disagree about the cover being bad, in fact, I think it's one of the best covers the comic has ever had (trust me, I've seen all of them). It's a really good drawing of Emma, I don't think it's particularly sexist or anything. It's nothing Destiny's Child wouldn't wear on the cover of Rolling Stone or something. People are used to seeing that sort of thing. Emma is drawn in a way that is proportionately correct, and the way that she dresses is a big part of Emma's character, and that isn't something to apologize about the way Grant and Frank portray her.

Simply put, the cover is striking...it's got a strong iconic image of a sexy woman on the cover, the white/yellow/hot pink color scheme is very eye catching and looks like nothing else on the comics rack. I think that any reasonable person/pro-sex feminist wouldn't have any qualms about it. It's not like a cover of Witchblade or something, you know..

Jack The Bodiless

18:41 / 29.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Benjamin Birdie:
I think what was meant was that Xavier outed Scott Summers, Jean Grey, and all the other prominent staff at the Institute, along with every potential student. There was never a concrete link in the public's eye between the Institute and the X-Men. Until now, of course.

*Hudsucker-Proxy-esque whistling sound*
Benjamin.

Yes, that's what I meant, There are shades of deepest ROK about you.

19:23 / 29.08.01

Except...

Just playing devils advocate. But there is very strong evidence for this.

1. Cassandra did tell Charles "I'll be you now and make you a murderer".

This one puzzles me still

2. She did say she only wanted one mutant mind. Whose if not Charles'?

true, but we don't know WHY she wanted his mind. We're making the assumption, after hearing the theory.

3. What she says does make sense - is easily convertible from groans and moans to intelligible information.

Only after you accept the theory.

Instead of the evidence pointing to the conclusion, we're taking the conclusion and trying to make the evidence point towards it. Of course it all fits! It's a fun idea, and so we're making it fit.

If you look for quarters, you'll find quarters.

19:40 / 29.08.01

Two things:

1) Anyone want to try to figure out anything else that "Cassandra" might be saying before she's "killed?" I'll try sounding it out at home tonight and see what I come up with.

2) Anyone care to guess how Cassandra knows about a top secret Sentinals project?

In the pre-Grant X-men, Magneto was the arch-villian so to speak. Being the one they fought more then anyone else. Weren't Charles and Magneto friends before the book started? Or am I getting the movie confused with the book?

Assume they were friends. Then they part ways, with Charles going for peace with humans. And Magneto going on the attack against humans.

What if Cassandra and Charles have a similiar history. One time together, and then later splitting ways. Except Cassandra, instead of bringing war on humans, like Magneto, she brings war on mutants. Hence why she knows about the goverment project, she was involved in it some how. Nice balance there. Esspecially with Magneto being "killed" for Grant's run. Cassandra is replacing Magneto.

Acctually, something else popped up. In the Ragged Robin thread the idea was brought forward that Grant seems to filter everything through certain subjects. First it was Books, then Film, then TV, and now it appears to be Comics.

I think we need to keep in mind that Grant seems to be drawing a lot from comics these days. And he's stated on several instances his love for pre-deconstruction comics. I don't think he's going to use the old tired plot devices out right. But, he might use them as fodder, twisting them into his own ideas.

Just a thought.

23:54 / 29.08.01

this may seem a retarded question but I'm not really churchy sooo:
In the cab emma has an "epiphany like st. paul on the road to damascus".

What is she talking about here? What kind of epiphany did paul (and her) have?

uncle retrospective

03:57 / 30.08.01

quote:Originally posted by impulsivelad:
What is she talking about here? What kind of epiphany did paul (and her) have?

ST Paul then Saul was a real shit with a thing for hunting down and killing christians. On the road to damascus god struck him blind and over a period time he came to realise he was a right bastard, got his sight back and went pro god.

Emma though, maybe she realised Jean was right?

A

03:54 / 31.08.01

I don't think Magneto's really dead. It was just a news report that said he was, if i'm not mistaken. you don't actually see him die (that was him in the wheelchair, yeah?) and he's the "master of magnetism" or whatever, so he could probably survive that explosion. still, it'd probably be pretty neat if he WAS killed in such an offhand fashion, especially seeing as how he was really the main plot of the movie.
Even if Grant considers him dead, he doesn't look dead enough to me for some other writer not to bring him back.

adam

Our Lady of The Two Towers

06:37 / 31.08.01

Yeah, I think that was the point, he's dead enough so that Grant can do his run without having to worry about him but not dead enough that he can't be brought back by someone else. Since Claremont left, the first time, all the writers have come up with various inventive ways to bring Mags back, then get rid of him, then bring him back...

Jack The Bodiless

13:01 / 31.08.01

They'd never let him kill Magneto in such a cavalier fashion unless they could bring him back, or unless Morrison was planning to.

It's not just the history of the character, or the fact that he's so unbearably cool. It's the fact that he's the major villain in the recent movie, and they have merchandising rights to think of.

Ronald Thomas Clontle

13:32 / 31.08.01

[QUOTE]Originally posted by I Am:

In the pre-Grant X-men, Magneto was the arch-villian so to speak. Being the one they fought more then anyone else. Weren't Charles and Magneto friends before the book started? Or am I getting the movie confused with the book?

No, Charles and Magneto were close friends during a time spent in their 20s living in Israel.

15:18 / 31.08.01

What I meant by Magneto being "killed" was that I think he's "killed" for Grant's run. I'm sure he'll pop up again down the line. But, after the Genosha thing, I would be really surprised (and a bit dissapointed) if Grant used him at all.

I just think the "death" scene was a way for Grant to show a kind of changing of the guard so to speak. I think Cassandra is going to be the arch-villian during Grant's run. Replacing Magneto, at least for this run.

Acctually, just popped in my head. Going back to the idea that Grant's current work is being infuenced heavily by comics. Could Cassandra's own "death" be a homage to the they're dead/no they're not switch, so common in comics today? I mean no one on the list acctually thinks this is the last we'll hear from her.

Jamieon

07:03 / 02.09.01

I am: if you're right, and the evidence is being bevelled into shape to fit the theory, I ask you: why did somone come up with the theory in the first place? I would hazard that they genuinely read Cassandra's dying words as "Emma, I'm Charles. No....." and that, combined with the fact that they assumed Cassandra was after Charles's mind, convinced them a psychic gypsy switch had taken place. I always assumed Cassandra was after Charles's mind - long before I accepted the mind switch theory. I mean, who/what else was she after? Who did she make it pretty clear she was interested in? Who did she say she would "be"? And if we are to assume that one half of Cassandra's ramblings can be converted to english ("Charles...nuuuuuu ["nuuuu" clearly translating as "no"]) then why can't we assume the rest can? And there's not much of a leap between "Umma" and "Emma" or "ummmm" and "I'm"; just a change in vowel sound........

07:27 / 02.09.01

I Am wrote:

>>Cassandra did tell Charles "I'll be you >>now and make you a murderer".
>This one puzzles me still

If the mind swap theory is true, then Cassandra has already made 'Charles' a murderer by gunning down 'Cassandra.'

>>She did say she only wanted one mutant >>mind. Whose if not Charles'?
>true, but we don't know WHY she wanted his >mind.

Cassandra seems quite old - perhaps she wants/needs a new body? If we push this idea a bit farther, based on their visual similarity, perhaps she could only inhabit Charles' body because he's a blood relative? Sheer speculation of course. But we know she doesn't want to kill him - in the first issue she gives vacates his brain the moment he threatens to kill himself. Whatever she wanted Charles for, she needed him alive...

10:47 / 02.09.01

First off, I'm not right out dismissing the mind switch theory. Just playing a bit of devil's advocate to keep us from putting all our eggs in one basket. Plus, I'm enjoying toying with all of this, as it unfolds.

Now, onto the discussion...

"Charles...nuuuuuu"

Look at the picture again. Look at where Cassandra is looking. Appears to me she's staring right at Charles. I assume, he's in the process of taking aim. Would make sense for her to yell out no. Esspecially if there is a relationship between the two of them. As far as what the other sounds are, I still need to look into what other words she might be saying, if she's saying anything.

The murder comment. Well, truth be told, she's succedded, he murdered her. (kinda. We think she's coming back, he doesn't)

Why she wanted Charles' mind. The theory was put forth earlier in this thread that Cassandra was able to absorb the mutations of other mutants. Not sure what my feelings on that theory are, but if it's at least semi right, wouldn't you want to absorb the mutation of Charles?

Again, I'm not trying to neccisarily kill the mind swap theory. I'm saying "ok, we've got that theory, what else could be happening?" But, everyone seems to be so caught up in this one theory, that I'm attacking it, to try and get people thinking again. We've got some bright, twisted minds here, and the best we can do is look at something someone else said and go, "yeah, that makes sense?"

Just because you throw out another theory, doesn't mean you're against this one. Come on, someone's got to have another theory.

Jamieon

15:14 / 02.09.01

NO! NO! NO! NO! ONLY ONE THEORY!

NO! NO!

Annoying.

Isn't this fun? You raise some good points there, IA. On the money. This book is great: it's stimulating so much fanboy debate. Wheee! We're all cunts, but don't we just love it?

READ THIS COMIC CUNTS!

Interestingly, NXM 117 is supposed to be coming out this week. Now I know Marvel always change their "Comics Onsale" section at the last moment, but the Mighty Marvel Mailer seems to back this one up (what was that I was saying about cunts? I get the Mighty Marvel Mailer? Put me out of my misery now...). "NXM shipping Sept 5th" sits happily alongside "NXM shipping Sept 18", so maybe they're not going to fuck us around this time. And Marvel have been going on about taking drastic measures to make sure their comics start coming out on time.... If two NXM emerge this month that'll set them back on track.

Fingers crossed.

[ 02-09-2001: Message edited by: runt ]

Ronald Thomas Clontle

18:59 / 02.09.01

Why would Cassandra want Charles' telepathy when she already was a powerful telepath?

09:30 / 03.09.01

maybe she wants him for his body... I mean, without a shirt, he's just as hot as Namor tee hee

06:45 / 04.09.01

Originally posted by Flux = Rad:

Why would Cassandra want Charles' telepathy when she already was a powerful telepath?[/

I'm not sure she wants his telepathy so much as needs his particular body for survival. They look too much alike for it to be a coincidence that she chose his body; what if she had to keep her mind 'in the family' when escaping the dying Cassandra body for the mind switch to work?

Consider too that she abandons her psychic infiltration of Charles in the first issue when he threatens suicide - if we accept the mind switch theory then this sequence seems powerful evidence that she had planned to swap minds from the beginning. I'm willing to bet that once she realized she couldn't take it without Cerebra she allowed herself to be captured. Otherwise, why not kill Scott and Logan when they were unconscious?

Of course, if we assume that there actually was a mind switch, and that Cassandra had intended it all along, the next question is why.

Flux is right - it can't be the powers. Manipulation doesn't seem to be a decent reason; presumably if her kind is to replace humans she's out to destroy mutants because they're the only threat to genetic usurption. The Sentinel attack on Genosha proved she doesn't need to be sneaky to deal out significant damage. Which leads me back to the 'survival' theory. Cassandra needed a body, and it had to be genetically compatible to work. In the family...

Evidence nil, of course. But fun to speculate.

07:49 / 04.09.01

As far as I'm concerned, Emma's epiphany was that she remembered that she'd left her Louis Vuitton hangbag behind. Everything else is guff.

08:31 / 04.09.01

Couldn't emma's epiphany have been the fact that there really are no other mutant groups out there (in the world of newXmen) with whom she can join and do something about what happened to genosha. Granted they'll probably not be as hard line as she'd like (this could be changing) but it's better than going it alone.She almost says as much in the annual anyway.

Jamieon

08:31 / 04.09.01

Maybe the next stage of the "significant damage" Cassandra aims to deal out can only be achieved by sneaky means. She could wreak untold havok dressed in Xavier's skin. And this time the X Men would be on her side.....

Ronald Thomas Clontle

19:37 / 04.09.01

quote:Originally posted by runt:
She could wreak untold havok dressed in Xavier's skin.

it's time to start putting the X-Men comics down when you start spelling that word like that, dude...

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

00:22 / 05.09.01

I think that's definitely what her epiphany was, and it makes her defense in the annual all the more human and so much less "here's the standard line that everyone in the x-men tells themselves in the morning". it's very much a "look, don't be so smug, you just happen to suck less than everyone else."

as far as the cassandra/xavier switcheroo, i simply can't get behind it. i think someone said it best when they were describing the process as using the argument to support the evidence and not the proper way around. i thought i'd posted it somewhere around here, but i couldn't find it, so excuse me if i'm repeating myself when i say that i just can't see grant writing someone slap their heads and figure out what the dying cassandra was "really" saying.

Eek.

I think the irrationality of what Xavier is doing now was explained in 114 when he said, "I'm thinking of better ways to make humans aware of mutants." (awful paraphrase there, but y'all know what i mean)

Benjamin.

Jamieon

11:09 / 05.09.01

That's possible, too. In fact, it's the first thing I thought before I'd heard the mindswitch theory. But I don't buy this fitting the evidence thing 100%. As I said before: I thought Cassandra was after Charles's mind long before I heard the theory. It's pretty much totally clear that she's after possessing Charles.... So, basically, I'm going to keep an open mind on this one. It doesn't really matter how it turns out: I trust Grant.

20:47 / 05.09.01

quote:
1. Cassandra did tell Charles "I'll be you now and make you a murderer".

This one puzzles me still

Well she was saying this when she was attempting to possess Charles while he was in Cerebra. Perhaps it was the fact that Cerebra's inhancing Charles' Powers to the 10th power that made him available for possession... or at least location.

Still not sure on the Switch Theory mayself.
I suspect that it would actually be easier for him to communicate telepathicly than try to speak even if his/her neck's broken.

Charles HAS used extreme measures before.

She could have been reacting to Proff X taking aim and yelling "nooo" still believeing Charles didn't have what it takes to exicute her.

"Umma" could also have been "oh my"

Maybe she was saying "now!!"

Perhaps it's been a game they've been playing since pre-history ...
who can kill whome first.

She would either Kill Charles or be killed by Charles... While her mutation makes her nature predatory for Humans & Mutants alike what makes her a "villian" could be that she's willing to kill Millions just to drive Charles to play her Game and kill her.
Perhaps that was the "humane" side of her also possessed by a force of Evil...

I think Emma realised she forgot to avenge the murder of her students and could justifably now that there was smoke comming from the mansion which obviously spelled trouble.

Not sure if Charles "outing" himself works as well if he's possessed. Kind of a "devil-made-me do-it" devise that's become SO common especially in the X-men series.

A Quimper like seed planted in Charles' mind sounds plausable.

But it's sort of like Shroudlinger's Cat... it's all equally plausible until One is proved...

Still need to re-read that whole run!!!

Page: 1 2(3)