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Doctor Who, Series Fnarg +1

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
Evil Scientist
07:58 / 29.05.11
Again, no consistency with the old series, although there's room to fanwank some into existence.

The Master is bribed with a new set of regenerations if he goes into the Death Zone to rescue the Doctor(s) in The Five Doctors so even in the classic series the whole thirteen regenerations thing is a bit up in the air.

My personal fanwank is that, pre-Time War, each Time Lord was given thirteen regenerations as a standard but that it was a societal thing rather than due to technological limitations.

For whatever reason additional regenerations or even whole new cycles would only be given in exceptional circumstances. With the advent of the Time War they "took the locks off" to allow their forces to have a better chance fighting the Daleks.

Anyway check the wikipedia on the topic, it's quite interesting.

Back to the show and I thought The Almost People had its moments but was fairly average as far as Who episodes go. Not overjoyed that Rory got demoted back to being the robot dog (as Mickey would have put it) but then Amy's hostility to the FleshDoctor also seemed a bit out of step (although I suppose her hero worship of the Doctor borders on obsessional at the best of times).

A few predictable moments. Easy to say now but I saw the "shoe-swap" coming as soon as we had the pan-down to both Doctor's feet.

My theory about the Flesh being a human parallel of the technology that produced the Nestenes/Autons was blown out of the water. The last five minutes of the show was cliff-hanger-tastic.

And there's still one more episode to go before the break.

And I watched the trailer...and the prologue teaser they released.

And I'm all of a tingle.

Incidentally, new Torchwood coming this year I think. Torchwood: Miracle Day, a whole season of it. For those of us who like to torture ourselves.
 
 
e-n
17:59 / 29.05.11
Just watched the teaser and the prologue.
Got a terrible sinking feeling who the "good man who goes to war" is...and who was it got banged up for killing a good man as well....

Poor Poor whatstheirname...if they dare to go there....

Otherwise the almost people was almost an episode.
Oi Moffat, when crafting a multi episode epic arc don't forget there's got to be some MEAT on them bones!
 
 
e-n
18:00 / 29.05.11
Dammit, I meant FLESH on them bones!
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:44 / 31.05.11
Moffat's confirmed that the Daleks will not be in this season, they're going to take a break.

Personally I'm very glad about that, the Dalek episode last year felt a touch forced anyway and I've been suffering from Dalek Fatigue Syndrome for a while. We don't want them stealing the thunder of the Silence do we?

Mind you, I obviously still have much love for my pepperpots as the BBC newscaster's joke about Daleks having bigger problems like how to get up stairs did provoke me into howling "Do some effing research! They can effing fly!" from the kitchen.

Heavens know's what the neighbours thought.
 
 
Good Stuff
08:59 / 03.06.11
Mind if we jump back a bit?

Anyone know why Gaiman called that character 'Idriss'? It's Arabic, I believe, or Welsh. Why not just call her 'Niece'? Then I would be happier.

I liked the familial nomenclature (eeh, I don't get to use that word often enough) because it seemed to reflect the trite, contrived existence in House's bubble universe.

In the same way, Disney gave its characters uncles and nephews, thereby removing concerns about consequences, responsibilities and the suspicion that any of the characters were procreating.
Not a healthy approach in my opinion - which is why it suited the bubble universe.


And now I've got this far, it occurs to me that the unease (more so for kids?) of 'uncles/aunts but no parents' has a parallel with Amy's life before the reboot.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:00 / 03.06.11
This will link you to the Guardian website Q&A Session with Neil Gaiman that happened after the episode broadcast. I don't know if it'll answer your question though. But it's still a good read.
 
 
Triplets
22:28 / 03.06.11
Apparently the 1st episode of the second half is called "Let's Kill Hitler".

Yesss...

If it's not a placeholder then I will give the love to Moff.
 
 
Evil Scientist
17:50 / 04.06.11
Let's Kill Hitler.

Now there's a time travel cliche needing some Moffat-Who treatment!
 
 
■
18:23 / 04.06.11
When I heard Idris, I immediately thought of the dragon who lived in the boiler in Ivor the Engine.
Not a lot to say about that, apart from the fact I thought it was quite a lot of fun and even the long bits of chat were spiced with the knowledge something very bad was about to happen. It was nice to get the obvious River issue resolved at last, and even though there are still plenty of questions, that's a nice point to leave it a few months, I think.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:26 / 04.06.11
I thought it was fairly shit.

End of last episode: No matter how long it takes, no matter how far away you are, I swear I'll find you.

Five minutes into this episode: Found you!

Doctor Who baddies don't work well on-screen when they team up. We've seen this before. They suddenly look cheap, their design becomes childish and lacking subtlety. It's not so noticable when it's an episode devoted to just one of them. but when you start putting them all in the same room as each other, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

But that's just a small gripe. The main one is that the story was clearly there as something to hang the reveal of River Song's identity on. Which was kind of pointless anyway, having been telegraphed to the audience for the entirety of this series and already guessed by a lot of viewers last time around. Quite how the Doctor didn't twig the Pond/River connection, when a bunch of nerds did months ago, is a mystery. Especially when Amy decided, apropos of nothing, to call her daughter Melody.

But yeah. Identity of enemy army? No clue. Identity of pantomime villain Eyepatch Woman? Nada. I wouldn't be bothered by this, if I thought for a second that these elements will be expanded upon in a future episode, but right now it feels as though they were simple plot devices and nothing more.

In fact, the only thing I genuinely enjoyed was the title card for the next episode, which had all the timing, humour and dramatic impact that the preceeding forty-five miutes lacked. And even then, I can't shake the feeling that *any* episode with the title 'Let's Kill Hitler' can't fail to be a crushing disappointment.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:40 / 04.06.11
That's not true. I still enjoy every second that Smith is camera's main focus, and I thought the "we ran, didn't we" moment was fantastic - no idea who this young woman is, but he knows that it's guaranteed that if he's met her at some point in her past, she's had to run from or to something.

It'd be nice if Moffat would give him more of this. Or if he'd just focus on the main character more, full stop. Like RTD, he's suddenly become more enamoured by the myth of the character and the way that others - especially his enemies - see him, than he is of the character himself. Maybe this is just what happens after you've had your first series in charge of the show.
 
 
■
00:18 / 05.06.11
I think that what this episode was about more than anything was that even though the narrative gave us the big climax of "Who is River?" (as if anyone with half a brain hadn't already guessed), what happens moments before is the most important thing. It's Moff puncturing the ever-expanding RTD Messiah complex.
A series like this can't sustain a hero who is not only a lonely god but better than all other gods yet who MUST find a new devil every year to become even more goddy and goodie. It's just not possible or interesting, in the long run.
What happens just before the big money shot is that River points out to the Doctor that he's become the RTD Doctor, the sort of force for conflict and, yes, potential evil that he'd always traditionally tried to avoid being. He's hit a peak in disarming Demon's Run with hardly a fight and the only way is down unless he chooses a new path, becomes a new person. This isn't the woman killing herself to restore the timelines suddenly doing what we all expected her to do for a cheap "noooooo what have I become!" moment like Tennant got. This is appealing to his sense of right and wrong that he instantly understands. he's not someone who should destroy and recreate the universe every year. He's got to become the chap who flits around, does stuff on his own, solving small problems with the help of his wife and friends. He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.
I know, that theory would hold more water had this been his first season, and he'd chosen to make the break then, but that's politics and ratings for you.
This, I'm guessing, is one of the reasons Moff has split the season this year. Death and rebirth and hubris: he has to give up the universe-changing and move on to the smaller stuff again, or the cycle will just keep spinning and his friends will keep suffering. The first half builds to "what have I become?" the rest will hopefully be: "This is what I should be... which will make my friends' baby daughter want to shag me."
OK, that image is creepy. Really creepy. Damn, that's dark, right there. Ew.
Mind you, no-one really commented on the idea he came back for a six-year-old he admired then fell in love with her to the point many viewers were convinced the baby was his, so maybe being practically immortal gives you a different perspective on sexual morality. Um. Yes. Does that work?
There's still he question of who that regenerating child is. Now that Moff has gone with the obvious on River, maybe I can ditch my granddaughter theory for the picture, and assume that the kid in the suit is a young River whose wibbly-wobbly semi-Time Lord powers the Silence were trying to harness, but but but... we have seen her die already in the same body two or three years ago.
Sod it, why are we worrying about this when something as awesome as the anime Pertwee Who exists?
 
 
e-n
19:21 / 05.06.11
I nearly fell off the bed laughing when I saw "Let's kill Hitler".
Sounds like an indie band or issue of The Invisibles.
I also think it nicely fits in with the thoery put across by cube there, puncturing the Doctor myth and rebooting him to fun and snnazzzy.

I don't get why guesssing River's identity inspired him to rush off though. Is it because he knows where she'll end up at set points in her life or just that knowing she's going to be ok (becuase she clearly is, for now , but not then, well, her "then" but his earlier)is enough to kick start his motor and get him out adn about?

I have to say that the possibilities (and how River ends up in jail with the show still continuing) has my mind boggled.
Glad to say I was totoally wrong about the "good man" though.
Did anyone else get the feeling they'd missed half a season as the doctor assembled his Avengers?
I'm pretty sure everyone already wants to see more of Victorian Silurian (those characters seemes tailor made to be "teh awesome", in fact a little too much so, they might get jarring if you spent too much time with them) what did you all think of the rest?

I'm outside the land of BBC access (ssssh) was there any teaser for next epsiode/season on after the show/on the web?
 
 
Evil Scientist
14:16 / 06.06.11
There was a tiny teaser at the end of the ep. I won't give away what it was but you can probably find it on YouTube.

Manga Pertwee btw is teh awesome.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:46 / 07.06.11
Just a random thought, but I want to jot it down while I remember. The Doctor's death doesn't have to have anything to do with River. The spacesuit can operate itself.
 
 
■
20:03 / 07.06.11
Ah. Interesting thought, there. Could it be that the real Doctor, somewhere else, is saying "I'm sorry" to a Flesh Doctor by talking to his own reflection in the visor? Mind you, the other Flesh Doctor didn't regenerate, so that kind of torpedoes that. Vice versa?
 
 
Triplets
12:13 / 08.06.11
The Flesh Doctor (best supervillain name ever) didn't regenerate (that we saw) because the modified sonic was designed to destabilise the Flesh. If the Flesh can't hold onto the Doctor's pattern then it can't regenerate.

I like the idea that he was talking to his Flesh self in the visor though... especially with all the talk of seeing eyes in the Almost People ep.

One theory I've seen for Let's Love Hitler is that one of the big things for time travellers to do is go back and kill them some Hitler. The idea I've read is that Hitler's life/death is a fixed point in time so the Doctor has to embark on a mission to SAVE the Fuhrer from multiple would-be chrono-assassins. Think about how many attempts there were on his life that got strangely messed up: it was the Doctor!
 
 
Poke it with a stick
08:51 / 09.06.11
But yeah. Identity of enemy army? No clue.

They were the Clerics, weren't they? I'd had an inkling of this seeing the trailer and the base with the cruciform illuminated window but they confirmed it here - these were the guys that employed River Song during the visit to the planet featured in Flesh and Stone.

Still not sure what kind of weapon they want River to be unless they figure that, judging by what the Doctor can do (bye bye 12th Cyberfleet?), a human with Time Lord characteristics could be just as powerful.

River's condition does open up a lot of interesting possibilities - if she can regenerate, then there's always the possiblity she could regenerate to look like someone else (a la Romana) and could (OK, don't hold me to this) be the Doctor killed by the space suit. She could be the Doctor's decoy down the line...

Right, I know, it's a stretch.
 
 
■
11:37 / 09.06.11
Nice idea, but again hobbled by the fact that we have already seen River die pretty finally, when we first met her, and there was no hint of regeneration there.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:14 / 10.06.11
Maybe her regeneration juice ran out? She's not a fully-fledged Timelord, she's just sucked in some of the Tardis energy when she was conceived. Not that I buy Poke's theory at all, but she definitely has the ability to regenerate at *some* point.

Regeneration allows Moffat, or future writers, to give her and the Doctor the length of time together that they'll need if they're to have the kind of connection that Moffat's written them as having, anyway. A new actor playing the part means we don't get the Data problem, where the character visibly ages with each subsequent return, despite that supposedly not happening.

I was going to watch all the episodes again to see what repeated themes Moffat's hidden away in there, because his Thing seems to be planting ideas early on in series/episodes, then unexpectedly returning to them later. Watched the first two over, but I don't think I've got the patience for the pirates one a second time.

WHat does stick in my mind is the episode with the humanoid Tardis, which has parallels with the Flesh stuff in that it's about consciousness being held remotely, in humanoid bodies. I wonder if that ties in with the Impossible Astronaut and the Doctor's death - if it's *not* River in the spacesuit, it has to be somebody, as the Doctor talks to its inhabitant before it 'kills' him. So maybe it's the Tardis again, or maybe the 'killing' is actually some kind of consciousness transference, and the Doctor's mind is pulled into the suit at that point, leaving his body dead.

Is Smith signed on for a third series, do we know?

We've got to see Canton again at some point this series. His older self knows what's going to happen before it does.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:30 / 10.06.11
Mind you, I still think that some of the River plotting is a bit messy. She certainly appears to think that it's herself in the spacesuit at that point - after the astronaut has killed the Doctor, she shoots at it from all of six feet away, five or six times, as it walks back into the water, and misses. This is the same woman who, one episode later, will kill multiple Silents while spinning around like she's a one-person fairground ride. When she doesn't hit the astronaut, she turns and says "of course", indicating that she knows that she wouldn't be able to harm it, because if it's her past self, that'd create a paradox.

And there are moments in these episodes where similar things seem to be going through her head. At one point, in the Tardis, the Doctor is talking to Canton about the astronaut. River is stood next to the American and looks to be doing everything she possibly can not to get involved or make eye contact with either of them.

But then, later in the episode, she helps the Doctor examine the now-empty spacesuit and is surprised by the fact that the child inside it was able to get out under her own steam ("must be incredibly strong").

I really am concerned that this series is going to be full of plot holes. The plotting so far hasn't been amazing, exactly. Take the cliffhanger we've just been left with until the series returns - it's not a patch on the one from the episode before, with Amy screaming as she's just about to pop the nipper out into a waiting technotube (on which note, I was disappointed that she then gives birth in a manner that must have been relatively pedestrian, as it's never mentioned - I totally thought that the sprog was going to be sucked out into some kind of weird machinery, or fired off into a warp tube or some shit. They left us with a fantastic image - white room, bulge, stirrups, waiting black hole of terror - and then did fuck all with it).
 
 
Evil Scientist
20:18 / 10.06.11
It's that "reaction-less energy weapon vs kinetic slug thrower" thing. Throws the aim off.

There's nothing to suggest River didn't hit the suit as it walked away, it's built from a hotchpodge of alien tech so, like most alien tech in the Who-niverse, being bulletproof isn't a huge surprise.
 
 
NotBlue
16:46 / 11.06.11
River has been posited to be older amy, now thought to be bambino, so who is frances (dyed red) barber? v2.0? River still may be a weapon, she could be lying through her teeth. also, doc sniffed amy and the baby before dissolvement and judged them ok - playing the long game? Matt smith and Arthur Darvil are knocking it out of the park. and this is from a guy who had tom baker as "my doctor".
 
 
Good Stuff
09:50 / 15.06.11
Evil Scientist, thanks for the link above - interesting but not conclusive re: Idriss.

And Cube, you mentioned there was no hint of a regeneration when River died, but - if I recall - she made a point of saving the Doctor, because the threat would have killed him and prevented regeneration.
Of course, that line is the point where we all should have realised that she was Time Lordy-Wordy.
(I just bought the Silence in the Library, Forest of the Dead and Midnight episodes on DVD for £2.49! So I will be watching them like a hawk as soon as I get a chance.)


I have been really pleased with the last 3 episodes. I think they were very strong.

My feeling about the Doctor's gang coming together was that it managed to stay the right side of cheap and cheesy (better than the end of last series).
And if the Sontarans have to exist, then they should all be written like that. (I couldn't stand the them in the 2-parter they had with Tennant - they didn't talk or move like soldiers. They talked and moved like awful Doctor Who villains.)

Now... trying to make a character cool by giving them a Japanese sword (especially in direct contrasts to the rest of their ensemble) - what a cliché. I can see how it might appeal to a young audience, but it ought to have made me wince.
And yet... I completely bought it! I thought those characters were great. I rationalise this by saying that the sword was Moffett using narrative shorthand to tell the story efficiently, rather than as a crutch for not being able to write thrilling characters.

And wow, what an awful lot of sexiness (gay and otherwise) there was in the last episode!



By the way - UK Lithers:
BBC3 appears to be repeating the whole of the Eleventh Doctor’s first series starting this Friday at 7pm.
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:03 / 17.06.11
Thanks for the heads up Good Stuff. I haven't seen the first episode since it premiered.
 
 
Poke it with a stick
19:52 / 20.06.11
Just watched the fourth episode of the last series (The Time of Angels) and noticed that the clerics are obviously a well-established part of River's story, but Moffat also mentions the Headless Monks in the dialogue.

I just wonder how much of River's backstory he has worked out and in what detail because, at the moment, it seems a lot more structured than the arcs RTD produced. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of love for RTD, but he did seem to be winging it a lot.
 
 
Poke it with a stick
17:24 / 05.09.11
No thoughts on the first two episodes of this half? Anyone?

There seem to be a lot of eyes in this season, especially when The Silence are talking about something being "Hidden in Plain Sight".

(Those eyeball jailers from last season; The Flesh's corridor of eyes; the Teselecta being entered through the eye etc...)
 
 
e-n
14:53 / 10.09.11
Slightly underwhelmed so far with the remainder of the season. First episode back felt like it rushed past in an instant and now we're back to moving on with no perceptible trauma for the Ponds?
Seems a little crass (yes I know it's a kid's show however you shouldn't venture down dark paths unless you have the resolve to follow them to their natural conclusion).

See how tonight's goes (one a copy Tardises in to Asia from the immediate past)
 
 
Triplets
18:45 / 19.09.11
Hoom. The River Song "reveal" episode was just bad all-round really. Very hammy acting (not in a good way) from Alex Kingston. Now that her narrative strength - The Doctor's Mystery Woman - is gone they didn't seem to know what to do with her.

I think the 2nd half has been the start of what people have already predicted - focusing back on personal threats to Doctor and companions rather than stopping multiversal doomsdays. Night Terrors, The Girl Who Waited and God Complex have all been about danger and menace to our heroes and it's been all the better for it.

TGWW and God Complex back-to-back are an excellent two-out-of-three summation of Moffat's intentions for the Doctor, I think. Show us exactly why the Doctor is the best but sometimes the worst thing to happen to his companions and then SHOW THE DOCTOR HIMSELF. The ending moments of God Complex, with the Doctor sabotaging himself to save Amy (coming right after Rory's sheer anger at having to make him choose between Cougar Samurai Amy and Young Amy) has really hammered home the deconstruction Doctor Who is getting this year. And I love it.


The Night Terrors episode was, apparently, meant to be the third or fourth episode into this season, which may be why it was a bit "trauma light".
 
 
Good Stuff
14:41 / 26.09.11
Hoped there
 
 
Good Stuff
14:41 / 26.09.11
Hoped there
 
 
Good Stuff
14:41 / 26.09.11
Hoped there
 
 
Good Stuff
14:47 / 26.09.11
I do apologise, but I am on my mobile. Hoped there'd be some life on this thread. Think I have a theory about the eyepatches. If you forget about the silence the minute you look away, perhaps the patches provide a constant image of a silent in one eye, so you never forget. It came to me in a flash - really hope I'm right!
 
 
Poke it with a stick
14:57 / 26.09.11
Good stuff, that's a very interesting possibility indeed. I can't help feeling this is all going to play out as a version of The Sting, though for the life of me I can't work out how.

And if the Doctor's needless costume change during Let's Kill Hitler isn't a clue (like the jacket in Flesh and Stone) then I'll eat my fez.

I don't have a fez, by the way, and even if I did, Moffat's going to screw with my head in some unexpected way anyhow.
 
 
Good Stuff
15:12 / 26.09.11
"...the sting..."

which I've seen, but just can't remember any relevant plot details.
I think were are definitely going to get swindled, but (like the reboot last series) will we still be able to feel satisfied by it?
 
  

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