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Doctor Who, Series Fnarg +1

 
  

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Jack Fear
12:22 / 06.05.11
I wonder if the Silence's power is related to creating split timelines where you didn't see them.

Kind of what I was dancing around with the quantum stuff I was yammering on about. Obviously the Silence are the key to all this, and I'm wondering if it's not so much that you can't remember them when you can't see them, or if they literally don't exist when you can't see them.

One of the axioms of quantum physics is that any observer becomes a part of the observed system. It's easy to guess how pop-sci-fi can exploit that concept, albeit in slightly dumbed-down form.

Imagine the Silence as entities whose native environment is a state of quantum flux. They are less creatures than they are events. At everywhere and every time, every point in the Universe is the potential for a Silent -- but it requires the introduction of an observer into the equation to bring that potential into existence. In the vast majority of cases, of course, no Silent will occur. But when one does, its occurrence will persist only insofar as it continues to be observed.

The point of Schrodinger's thought-experiment with the cat is that the cat is both alive and dead -- or neither alive and dead -- as long as it is in the in the box and unobserved. What determines its actual state is the observer; by opening the box and checking on the cat, we are taking it out of a state of flux and nailing it down into one state -- either alive, or dead. Moffatt's game, I suspect, is that the Silence similarly both exist and not-exist, or neither exist nor not-exist, until the presence of another sentient life-form "opens the box," as it were.

Now do the Stupid Writer Trick, and extrapolate that to familiar WHO terms: timelines. In one timeline, the cat is dead; in another, the cat is alive. In one timeline, there's a Silent standing right behind you; in another, there is no Silent.

The conditions that are -- I can't say "causing the Silence to occur," so let's just say "making these multiple occurrences vs. non-occurrences of Silence more likely" -- are also messing with the timeline in other ways. And my suspicion (which right now s hardening in to a contention) is that the gray-lined areas in the infographic linked above -- the "and then they fell deeply in love" stuff -- is all going to get erased from the Doctor's in-show timeline.

Which is a good thing, IMHO, because even in science fiction one can only suspend one's disbelief so much. It's an impossible relationship, and I cannot imagine any writer being able to make it convincing.

And that's how I am thinking about the series -- from the perspective of a writer. And I cannot stop doing so. I find this slightly worrisome.
 
 
■
18:20 / 07.05.11
Hm. Pretty forgettable, I thought. It's only an hour since it finished and I'm struggling to remember what was going on. Way too many cliches for my liking (drowned people always recover just after rescuers give up CPR, apparently) and the pirates' motivation and characters were an utter mystery to me. And what about: "well, there's a slim chance with not even a working hypothesis to support it that if we all get killed RIGHT NOW, it'll be fine."
And yes, I'm coming round to joining "the Gillan can't act very well" posse.
 
 
■
18:39 / 07.05.11
And, yeah, Jack, the intersection of realities stuff points to the fact that we are heading for something pretty close to what you're outlining.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
14:52 / 08.05.11
Well that was a pretty goddam boring episode. Then again, the third episode of last season was pretty crappy, but the rest of the series went on to be pretty fun and exciting so I guess an off week is allowed.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:20 / 08.05.11
That was clearly one of the 'we'd already blown the budget' episodes.

I hate that you lot are always right about where the series is heading. The stuff about parallel universes tied in with the theories here precisely.
 
 
Poke it with a stick
16:01 / 08.05.11
Spatula - Personally, I'm not sure that is where we're going. Well, not exactly that way, any road. Yeah Moffat likes to explore and expand on the overall themes throughout the season, but I think he could be taking it in a slightly more obvious direction:

All this talk of who has the "bigger ship" and then the reveal that there's a ship caught in the same place as the Fancy combined with the TARDIS being "sick" make me wonder if there isn't something more to that and the ship we saw under Washington (and in The Lodger) is still in or around the TARDIS somehow.

After all, how could the same ship abandoned in 2010 be used by The Silence in 1969 unless a)they'd go it to work (via Amy's influence, presumably) or b)they'd piggy-backed onto the TARDIS.

Idle thought related to the quantum wibbly-wobbly stuff and there being a Schrodinger's Amy/Baby/Universe. We see Rory and Amy over the valley during The Hungry Earth/In Cold Blood - is it possible these could be alt-Ponds rather than just them at another point in time?
 
 
■
17:13 / 08.05.11
Nice thought! Even if it wasn't originally intended as that, I bet Moff ties it in at some point.
 
 
■
20:48 / 08.05.11
And as to the budget, I've been devouring DWM (as I do every month) and all the talk of location shooting in Cornwall baffled me. There wasn't a moment of that episode where I thought they weren't in a studio. My particular beef was the bit where Rory and Amy were "hauling on the sails" and it was painfully clear that she was just running her hands down a rope.
 
 
Good Stuff
12:39 / 10.05.11
To respond to Poke-it-with-a-stick, I didn't think the suggestion was that they got the alt-tardis to work in 2010 so they could bring it back to 1969.
Rather, I think the Doctor suggests that it is found in 2010 after the Silence abandoned it sometime after subliminal message went out in 1969.

As I understood it, the Doctor was being ironic when he said, "Abandoned. Wonder why that might be...", because he knows he is about to pull the trick with the moon walk footage.
 
 
Good Stuff
12:52 / 10.05.11
But number 3 was a disappointing episode. the Doctor is a... DOCTOR.
I couldn't understand why Rory needed to tell Amy how to resuscitate him. That was utter crap.
I just hope that the producers realised that whatever followed episodes 1 & 2 was going to disappoint, so they followed them with the worst one of the series. There's optimism for you.

And Cube, until you wrote that about Amy pulling the ropes, it hadn't grated with me. Now it really does - thanks! (Which reveals that I have actually watched it twice - some on fast forward though).
The worst bit was the sound effect of the rope and pulley - after all, there would have been nothing wrong with the puny, wee thing failing to pull the ropes in all that rain.


Jack Fear's prediction that River's past will not be our Doctor's future - I don't like it.
I would be really dissatisfied if that is how things play out. My impression is that it could be written, and that Moffat is the person to do it, and that he is having enough fun doing so to keep at it.

As to who River really is... I am starting to think she is a weapon. Aimed by the Silence at the Doctor.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:21 / 10.05.11
I didn't mind the third ep too much. Mainly because it'd have been so much worse if RTD had still been script editor.

The thing that really bugged me about it, though, was that it was another example of a lack of original ideas, being little more than a rewrite of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances.

Scary thing kills people! Argh! Oh, it's actually an over-enthusiastic alien first aid kit.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
12:24 / 12.05.11
Me and mine are pretty much on board with the alternate timelines idea, but unless I missed something in my scan of everyone's responses, did anyone posit the parallel universe theory? If so, I find it troublesome that the 10th Doctor made it such a big deal about it never being possible to access them under super duper special circumstances and then here we go with the 11th Doctor and hey, it ain't no thang!

Also, this past week's episode was pants. But there's always one or two weak ones per series.

Apologies to anyone who might have already done a much better follow-up.
 
 
Good Stuff
15:31 / 12.05.11
Yeah, it feels wrong to me too that alternate universes are now no thang (as you put it so well), when once they were verboten.
But - ooh, ooh - I'm getting something... Did the Silence blow up the Tardis to make that change? Are they relying on it to manifest their ability? (Did I hear Moffat make something out the fact they have they only been noticed now?)

I hate alternate realities for two reasons:
1, because if there are accessible universes where one thing happens and also doesn't happen, then why should we care about anything that happened ever
2, because if you have had a 50 year continuity in one, the it seems so facile to pop to another one for twenty minutes. It is a whole universe!
(and presumably there's another Doctor there?)
 
 
Jack Fear
16:27 / 12.05.11
Naw. The Doctor is like Luther Arkwright, man. Often imitated, never duplicated.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:41 / 13.05.11
(Google search reveals to me that Luther Arkwright was once portrayed in an audio drama by none other than ... David Tennant. WHEELS WITHIN WHEELS, people.)
 
 
Good Stuff
22:39 / 13.05.11
Excited about seeing the Neil Gaiman episode.
Given what Gaiman has been saying about it, I just watched the very first episode for the first time (or as much of it as was on youtube) - I was quite impressed.

That's after watching the Liz Sladen triute, The Hand of Fear that was on last week.
I tried to convince my very young son that Tom Baker was the same person as Matt Smith (but he got bored very quickly), then struggled to convince myself that there was anything of the same man in them...
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:06 / 14.05.11
Also, this past week's episode was pants. But there's always one or two weak ones per series.

I enjoyed it personally. It felt very Classic Who; plenty of running around in a historical setting with a monster. The ending with the pirates flying off into space reminded me of the Eternals and their sailing ships in space.

I'm loving the season so far but did feel that the opening two episodes might have not have appealed to children (I have none to interrogate but it seemed to be the general view on several message boards I haunt). It's good to throw the younglings some fun with pirates to keep them in the game.

That said, it's great that parents across the world are having to explain basic time travel physics to their kids thanks to Moffat era Who. Who is edu-mah-cational again!
 
 
Poke it with a stick
17:45 / 14.05.11
Best episode since Vincent and the Doctor? Oh yes, indeedy. I'll leave it there for now until it hits the colonies...
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
19:57 / 14.05.11
It's already hit this part of the Commonwealth for us. That was really really quite good!
 
 
Saint Keggers
23:24 / 14.05.11
It was very much enjoyed by me. Except I found that that actress, in that role reminded me much too much of Helena Bonham Carter.

On a side note, Neil Gaimen should have his own anthology tv show much as Mr. Hitchcock had his and Mr. Vonnegut had his much too brief escapade on the toob.

(and let's not talk about the Doctor and Vincent For some strange reason my allergies always seem to start acting up at the end.)
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:23 / 15.05.11
Except I found that that actress, in that role reminded me much too much of Helena Bonham Carter.

Exactly the reason I now have an insane crush on the TARDIS.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
11:11 / 15.05.11
It was very much enjoyed by me. Except I found that that actress, in that role reminded me much too much of Helena Bonham Carter.

Ha! Me too. But overall I found it to be a very enjoyable episode, really felt the doctor's heartbreak upon finding all the distress signal boxes and realizing, again, he is all alone. I did roll my eyes a bit at the "I killed all the Timelords, I am so sad about it" sitting right next to a "I killed all the Timelords, I'm a huge badass" scene.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
11:12 / 15.05.11
For me, the actress was equal parts HBC and Helen McCrory.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:05 / 16.05.11
It was very Gaimanesque, wasn't it? While working very well with the continuity and keeping the characters very successfully in character, it didn't feel exactly like an episode of Doctor Who, in the way that his Babylon 5 episode didn't feel exactly like an episode of Babylon 5, but rather somebody telling a story about Babylon 5. There's plenty of metatext in there about the difficulties of continuity in a time travel story, and about the TARDIS as a narrative engine. Oddly, I thought the bits that were most Gaimanesque and least Whoey - like the scary corridor bits with Amy and Rory - were the most atmospheric.

Also, on a wider narrative level, it struck me as nerfing the Time Lords a bit; it made sense when the Cybermen jobbed for the Daleks, because the Daleks are the most perfect engines of destruction in the universe, whereas here we had hundreds of Time Lords - who are kind of the Lords of Creation - jobbing for a one-off villain. Which is another reason why this maybe works best as a semi-detached story - it's almost a fairytale about the big, bad House and how he was defeated by the Doctor, when so many others had been defeated in the past.
 
 
■
18:00 / 16.05.11
I loved it.
I've been trying to convince myself that this was Gaiman trying to make a nod to the mythos of the Great Vampires, which only ever turned up in the show in State of Decay as a slightly shonky puppet, but which has been used quite a bit elsewhere. It's a typically Gaiman-y thing that he introduces interesting things then waves his hands going, "no, look over here".
What exactly is House, and how can he rebuild people if he is wholly an incorporeal energy source? He doesn't really seem to interact with his own planet very much except to absorb energy, so perhaps it manifests in some way?
I dunno, all a bit fanwanky, but if you want a giant, evil space vampire, a race that the Time Lords hunted to extinction (or so they thought), House kind of fits the bill without drawing attention to itself.
I'm glad the "mad bitey lady" only stayed so long enough for it to be Gaiman saying "look, it's Delirium, I am really writing this", and it did make sense for her to need to adjust, so no complaints there. And she played it brilliantly. "Did you wish REALLY hard?" indeed.
I loved the fact that Uncle was effectively given a bucket of popcorn for the execution scene, that the Tardis referenced her creator ("Pickwoad"), and introduced us to what the name is for THAT smell.
I'm just really, really not looking forward two a two-parter written by the guy who did Fear Her. Ugh. What were they thinking? Unless it was RTD who killed an otherwise promising episode with all that Olympics bollocks.
 
 
Jack Fear
02:52 / 17.05.11
House fixes us when we're broken.

First we tells him what's wrong with us, and he tells us we're lying. Then he tells us it's not lupus, and tries loads of things to fix us before he hits upon the right one. But he always fixes us, in the end.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:57 / 17.05.11
I loved the fact that Uncle was effectively given a bucket of popcorn for the execution scene

From creepy "I'm Uncle, I'm everyone's Uncle." to funny "Actually I feel alright.". Quite an effective little character for someone who says about four lines and then dies.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:43 / 18.05.11
It just so hits me that the Doctor didn't kill just all Time Lords. But alsoall Tardis(es) as well...

Also, Rory is my favourite character on the show now. He's the "Sure, I'm hanging around with the crazy Doctor, but just to keep my wife safe" character in a world where everyone seems to be playing the "Wow, the Doctor is soooo cool, I'm quitye willing to die a horrible death just to hang around with him, wo-hoo!" card

Also also, is it meor the Doctor keeps telling people he has always the exact same age (900+ a few years). He's burning through all his regenerations in a few months time?
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:21 / 19.05.11
He has these busy spots every now and then.

Regeneration's been retconned to be something that Time Lords can do without limit anyway, whilst at the same time being portrayed in such a way as to allow that the Doctor can be killed (plot shield notwithstanding) by threats that either kill him too quickly for him to regenerate or (as in Turn Left where he drowned) put him in a situation where regeneration won't help.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:47 / 19.05.11
Retcon my ass...
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:41 / 20.05.11
Somethings are too cute to retcon Megs.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
06:26 / 22.05.11
Spoilers!


There was one thing that really effing bothered me, and the fact that I saw it coming almost immediately certainly didn't help. When the dopplegangers gain independence and what's-her-name suddenly decides they're just accidents and need to be put down all I could think was "What? Why? How would you come to that decision so quickly and what possible justification could you have for that?" I don't find that reaction at all believable, and unless something in her backround comes out is revealed in the next episode its going to continue to bug the shit out of me throughout the show. I had a very similar reaction watching Battlestar Galactica. Every time someone would refer to the Cylons as "toasters", or claim they're not "real people", all I can think is "well, they're completely identical to humans except for a few bits, they are a living organism, they have personalities/souls/whatever, how exactly can you claim that they're not 'real' people?" Like I said, I find that reaction completely unbelievable and it bugs the shit out of me. Her line about saving the philosophy for later irked me quite a bit, as from a biological perspective there really isn't any debate. The philosophy aspect really only concerns identity, not anything about whether the dopplegangers are "real people".

I enjoyed the episode even though I predicted a dopple-doctor about twenty minutes in (the idea is predictable but I forgive them for it because it can potentially provide all kinds of fun plot points and probably more jokes than they can cram in a 45 minute episode). Something about this episode has partly changed my mind about how interesting or valuable to the show Rory is, and although I'm not quite sure what it was I really hope we see his character go in some of the directions I think are open now. Its funny, when Amy's relationship with Rory was sort of threatened by her attraction to the doctor I thought it was boring and trite, but I think if it were reversed--Amy worrying about Rory drifting away or meeting someone else--I would immediately be very sympathetic to Rory and, to be honest, I'd kinda root for him. Again, I'm not sure what it was about this episode that gave me these thoughts, but suddenly Rory has become much more interesting to me.
 
 
Poke it with a stick
11:08 / 22.05.11
When the dopplegangers gain independence and what's-her-name suddenly decides they're just accidents

I don't think it was quite that simple - the Doctor's been haranguing her about the Flesh being sentient and having their personalities whilst they've been referring to it as like "a fork lift" or some other bit of useful kit. I think the entire crew are probably a bit wary of the Flesh already and what's-her-name is trying her damndest to pretend it's not true so she can avoid the guilt of wasting all of those bodies and basically throwing them away without a second thought.

If they're "almost" people, she's complicit in murder or, at least, wholesale manslaughter.

To back this up, you've got Jenny who, for reasons we may discover later, is pretty reluctant to use the Flesh in the first place - strange, as she seems the one most psychologically suited to using it: she imagined a stronger more capable her when she was a child and now - wahey! It's come true.

Shamefully, I haven't read the book or Tarkovsky's original film, but didn't one of the characters in Soderbergh's Solaris meet his doppelganger who then killed him thinking the original was the copy? There seems to be something like that going on here.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:44 / 26.05.11
Regeneration's been retconned to be something that Time Lords can do without limit anyway, whilst at the same time being portrayed in such a way as to allow that the Doctor can be killed (plot shield notwithstanding) by threats that either kill him too quickly for him to regenerate or (as in Turn Left where he drowned) put him in a situation where regeneration won't help.

As far as one can tell, the new rule is that if you are killed _again_ while regenerating, you stay dead. Which actually makes Time Lords quite vulnerable, when you think about it - so, if you cover them in water, they drown and then drown again while regenerating.

That said, that rule is no more or less subject to change than any of the other rules - Who doesn't really have a consistent universe, nor is it really about science...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:41 / 28.05.11
The Master regenerated too, didn't he? In the RTD series, from Derek Jacobi into DI Sam Tyler. Again, no consistency with the old series, although there's room to fanwank some into existence.
 
  

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