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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Star Trek (2009 film)

  
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
Simplist
17:27 / 18.05.09
actually, thinking about it Star Trek could've done with a 15 to 20 mins added onto it. i think the emotional investment component relies too heavily on people already caring about the characters in their other incarnation. there's just this latent assumption that the name 'bones' can be uttered and we'll all instantly emote.

But we do, don't we? Why waste time spelling things out with a hammer when you can instead take advantage of the fact that the audience does in fact have a preexisting familiarity with and emotional investment in the characters? One of the things about this film that really did work, I thought, was the length. It kept the narrative tight, no bloat.

I've never quite understood this kind of criticism. Why is continuity-dependency a problem when the target audience is in fact familiar with the continuity? It's like even though we may be precisely the people the film was designed for, we still can't quite fully enjoy it because of the imaginary newbies sitting next to us in our heads. The friend I saw it with, who can cite random ST facts by season and episode number, had this same "sure, we enjoyed it, but what about people who've never watched Star Trek?" reaction. Why the excessive concern for the less geeky, most of whom won't be interested in seeing the film in the first place?
 
 
Spaniel
18:46 / 18.05.09
Don't be silly, of course you understand that criticism. It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that those who don't already care much - arguably *most* of the audience - might benefit from a bit more in the way of character build.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
19:19 / 18.05.09
A week after seeing this, I keep coming back to how lovely and tragic the line that introduces McCoy's nickname is. After reciting everything he lost in his recent divorce, he ends with "All I got left are my bones." It's a nifty turn of phrase that puts the gruff and sad personality of McCoy into a new perspective for me.

Of course, it's a completely new origin for the nickname, as the original "Bones" was from "Sawbones," a nickname for physicians. Why it's a nickname for physicians, I can only guess amputation is involved, but in the end, I much prefer the new style origin.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:24 / 19.05.09
Why it's a nickname for physicians, I can only guess amputation is involved

That is, indeed, the case.

I enjoyed the film far more than I was expecting. I did like that an entire fleet of Classic era Fed ships get their asses kicked by, what is effectively, the Romulan version of Red Dwarf.

The future of the film is a much more mysterious place when it's seen through telepathic unions and family holos from dead worlds and red matter weapon systems (Spock did you have to take so much?). NimoySpock's ship is nothing like the Next Gen ships we're all so familiar with. All to the betterment of the film I felt.

The fan-pander moments were just enough to please without getting in the way of the film too much (heh, red-space-suit guy we all knew you were dying first).

Some pretty brutal moments too; the speed and savagery of Nero killing the Captain in the opening scene, the sound of fist on face in pretty much any hand-to-hand moments.

And Vulcan...oh man did I not see that actually happening to Vulcan.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
12:50 / 19.05.09
the imaginary newbies sitting next to us in our heads.

I know several people who hated and feared the idea of star trek, were dragged to this film by their geeky friends, and came away very happy. the newbies are not all imaginary and the target was not just trekkies.

your point about letting geeky movies be designed for those already in the club is reasonable. is there any history of movies designed just for the fans and how well did those movies do?
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:11 / 19.05.09
Heh, Twilight?
 
 
gridley
13:23 / 19.05.09
is there any history of movies designed just for the fans and how well did those movies do?

Watchmen?
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
13:58 / 19.05.09
Not to mention the Star Wars prequels.
 
 
jentacular dreams
10:48 / 20.05.09
I enjoyed it, until the ice planet, when it lost me. Random meetings aside, the chase scene just seemed like a fulfilment of the rock-monster joke from galaxy quest, though I guess I'm not really a slapstick fan, so half the humour in the film wasn't to my taste. But the whole film just felt more star wars than trek, which is not a problem in of itself, but I honestly think that a clean reboot would have been so much better than trying to tie it in with established continuity, because from my perspective the aesthetic and feel of the two continuities just don't sit well alongside one another.
 
 
Spaniel
23:25 / 22.05.09
Starwars prequels were not designed solely for fans
 
 
Mistoffelees
07:06 / 23.05.09
I agree. Since the prequels were mostly done to sell merchandise to kids, they were not just aimed at fans.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
14:24 / 23.05.09
Boboss, do you think the Star Wars prequels would have been made simply because George Lucas wanted to make them?

As much as I love ROTS, the prequels were simply made to capitalize on an existing fanbase. The fans wanted them and they got them. Mist's point about merchandising to kids is near the mark, but it's really about ticket sales and merchandising to the existing fanbase. I'd love to see the figures, but I would not be surprised if the majority of toy sales were to collectors and OT fans, not necessarily children that may never have heard of Yoda.
 
 
Spaniel
18:00 / 23.05.09
If we're uncharitable, which I'm happy to be, then yes they were made to capitalise on the existing fanbase, but they were also made to build a new fanbase on which to capitalise in the future.

New fanbase=not pre-existing fans.

Also, like with all these things, they were made to capitalise on all those millions of people who just want to go watch a big tent pole movie, or indeed any movie, because they're bored and need distracting from life's hideous ennui.

Randoms (who don't give really give much of a shit about Star Wars but probably recognise the brand - my wife, for example)=not pre-existing fans.

Prequels were made with the fans in mind, sure, but they were only occupying a smallish segment of said mind
 
 
Neon Snake
08:53 / 24.05.09
yes they were made to capitalise on the existing fanbase, but they were also made to build a new fanbase on which to capitalise in the future.

I think maybe that more than just capitalising on an existing fanbase, they capitalise on, uh, the "pop-cultural goodwill" towards the brand.

I mean, I was always going to see the Star Wars prequels, regardless of the reviews. Same with, say, the Lord Of The Rings films. I'm a fan of both.

But I suspect that many people went to see the LOTR trilogy who have never read the books, had no interest (prior to the films, certainly) in reading the books and would have gone nowhere near a sword/sorcery/fantasy film had it not been called "Lord Of The Rings".

Same with the Star Wars prequels, I'd guess. People went to see Phantom Menace who would have had no interest normally in a sci-fi film about a kid with quasi-mystical powers and a prophecy.

I'm in that camp with Star Trek. I'm not a fan. I've seen some episodes if they were on the telly, I think I've seen all of the films with the original crew; again, only when they were on telly, and not for many, many years.

I recognised all of the crew, but I'm not convinced I could have listed them without prompting before seeing the new film, and I certainly couldn't have told you their ranks and personality traits.

I still went to see it, basically because I have an ingrained amount of goodwill towards the Star Trek franchise, despite a personal lack of interest.

"Star Trek? That's mean't to be good, innit? Some of my mates are into that, it might be worth a punt."

Having seen it, I think they were quite careful not to upset the original fans - the alternate timeline seems to neatly sidestep any "No! That's not what happened! Series 3, episode 2 contradicts that" issues, and Nimoy's presence in the film added, I felt, some weight and maybe some authority to the film that probably has resonance with the fans.

I was surprised at Spock's relationship with Uhuru, but I've no idea if I should be or not, or whether a "proper" fan would approve of it.

And I'm vaguely aware that the new film was missing some philosophical aspects that were inherent in the originals; but I couldn't tell you what they were, or whether they're important to the authenticity.

Meanwhile, it was a bloody enjoyable film, one that'd happily watch again and would watch a sequel to; and one that I'd probably never have watched had it not been Star Trek.
 
 
Neon Snake
09:49 / 24.05.09
It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that those who don't already care much - arguably *most* of the audience - might benefit from a bit more in the way of character build.

Thinking about it a few days later then, I got:

Kirk: Willing to take risks to save others.

Spock: Struggling to make sense of conflicted heritage, and whether or not it's proper to show emotion.

Uhuru: Driven, extremely competent.

Bones: Dour, somewhat pessimistic.

Scotty: Very clever, a bit excitable, prone to thinking "outside the box" in terms of engineering principles.

Chekov: Young, extremely bright, very excitable. Not much else.

Sulu: Not much. A vague sense of a need to prove himself?


I could probably think of others, and there probably is more, but those are the very first things that spring to mind.


Are they accurate with respect to the original characterisations?
 
 
This Sunday
11:15 / 24.05.09
Are they accurate with respect to the original characterisations?

Pretty much, except for Sulu who was if anything, the Twenty-Third Century definition of does not need to prove himself. He's the guy who takes you where you'd want to go... why would you let someone you didn't trust to be competent, quick-witted, and reliable do that? He is also the Twenty-Third Century definition of fanboy with his foil, his handgun, other collectibles, and unfulfilled desire to be dashing and seductive and stuff.
 
 
Neon Snake
11:40 / 24.05.09
All I really had with Sulu is that he makes a schoolboy error almost immediately, and seems to kick himself for it (he forgets to do something, some process, I didn't catch what, whilst trying to make the jump to warpspeed) - and then volunteers to join a dangerous mission to assault the drill at earliest opportunity.

The fencing thing was a bit weird. Again, no idea if the original Sulu fenced, so I might be off-base here, but when asked exactly what his advanced hand-to-hand combat skill was, I was expecting something really hard-sounding - when he replied "fencing", my reaction was to laugh, since it's "obviously" not going to be much use.

It felt like we were going for "he's not actually particularly handy in a fight, but the lad's got some balls, eh?".

Then, he pulls out the world's kewlest sword, beats his man - and saves Kirk, who was about to be sent off the edge.

It felt like it was a mixed message; I might have felt differently had he actually fenced - it would have appeared initially to me that it wouldn't be useful, and then would have surprised and delighted me when he'd won. As it was, the moment he pulled out that sword, I "knew" that, actually, he'd be pretty tasty in a ruck.
 
 
Neon Snake
11:44 / 24.05.09
...and by "fenced", I mean my own ill-informed idea of what fencing is, ie. with the point of a rapier, not with a cutting edge.

Principle being, I think of fencing as not being immediately and evidently hard-ass, instead I view it as being more of a sport; when I see someone swinging a sword with an edge, I'm straight away into connotations of knights, gladiators, Aragorn, and other hard-assery.
 
 
CameronStewart
14:33 / 24.05.09
Again, no idea if the original Sulu fenced

  
 
Neon Snake
08:44 / 25.05.09
Ah, ok.

See, that's more what I was expecting; which at first glance would have looked entirely ineffective vs the Romulans. Therefore, my delight at him winning would have been amplified. Instead, we had Yoda-style spinning and somersaulting.
 
 
This Sunday
09:38 / 25.05.09
See, that's more what I was expecting; which at first glance would have looked entirely ineffective vs the Romulans.

Stabbing the other guy with a length of metal has a way of being surprising efficient in dispatching them.

I wonder, given the frequent trope of not being able to use firearms on a spaceship, due to possible hull breach, has there ever been a movie where the hero spent the whole time aboard an enemy spaceship just stabbing the other guys?
 
 
Dead Megatron
12:04 / 25.05.09
Principle being, I think of fencing as not being immediately and evidently hard-ass, instead I view it as being more of a sport; when I see someone swinging a sword with an edge, I'm straight away into connotations of knights, gladiators, Aragorn, and other hard-assery.

What you don't know, Neon, is that fencing started not as a sport, but as a fighting style made to bypass the protection of the medieval armor. You see, when the other guy has a full body armor, swiging a heavy two-handed sowrd around in an attempt to slash him is pretty much a waste of time. But if you instead have a thin, long blade with a very sharp point, you can stab the other guy through weak points in his armor, such as under the arm, the groin, the neck and whatnot, thus, together with the long bow, making the whole concept of heavy armor fully obsolete, and replacing the medieval knight with the duelist, like the Three Musketeers of the Renaissance. It is a sword fighting style meant for quick, clean, no-nonsense death, much more efficient than the bruttish medieval style you mention or the flamboyant, showmanship-based Shaolinesque style used in the film.

The sport you are more familiar with is practiced with a very flexible steel rod with a ball in the point and multi-layered coated clothes plus mask for no small reason...
 
 
Dead Megatron
12:05 / 25.05.09
I mean, what I suppose you don't know and nor are you in any obligation to know. I didn't mean to sound so snide.
 
 
Neon Snake
13:11 / 25.05.09
It didn't sound snide, at least not to me having cheerfully admitted upthread that I'm completely ill-informed, and have only a layman's knowledge of fencing.

And what you said, about it being thoroughly practical, is kind of what I was expecting to see in the film, y'know? A fighting style which appears slightly, I dunno, foppish(?), with the connotations of it being practiced at Eton by the upperclasses, with all the pomp and circumstance and "En Guarde" that I, Layman, associate with it - and then turns out to be completely deadly.
 
 
wicker woman
05:18 / 26.05.09
Well, that was the joke, after all.
 
 
wicker woman
08:13 / 26.05.09
Ok, as far as snide things to say goes, that takes the prize. Sorry about that, didn't really intend it that way.
 
 
Neon Snake
08:22 / 26.05.09
What was the joke, wicker woman?
 
 
Neon Snake
10:25 / 26.05.09
By which I mean, "when" was the joke?

I felt that it was neutered the moment he pulled out that amazing fold-out sword; for some reason, I had no doubt from that moment on that he'd put his man down.

Had he pulled out a rapier, assumed a position like in Cam's photo, and yelled "En guarde", I'd have been much more impressed. Not necessarily surprised, since it would have been a fairly standard convention had he won, but delighted none-the-less.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:34 / 26.05.09
By which I mean, "when" was the joke?

Well that would be the part where Sulu tells Kirk he's trained in fencing, leading people familiar with the character to think of this. Then it all goes fold-away katana.

Much hilarity, everyone laughs. Or not. Humour's quite subjective.

As a point of interest I used to do the old thrust-parry-riposte fencing when I was younger and it's only the first blade, the foil, that restricts you to using the point. Both the sabre and epee allow use of the blade.

EvilScienceTrueFact!
 
 
Neon Snake
10:43 / 26.05.09
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaok, gotcha.

It wasn't aimed at 'me' - it was aimed at the folks who knew Sulu from the original series and knew that he fenced, then? Like the red-shirted guy dying during the jump?
 
 
grant
14:46 / 26.05.09
But the whole film just felt more star wars than trek,

I got that feeling, too.

It's the way this story was put together - lots of action, lots of flashing lights, not so much revelation of something weird and wonderful. Strange new worlds and new civilizations.

I did like the way the characters worked with each other, though. In that sense, it seemed like the old recipe, and that's really what they wanted, I'm sure. Hopefully the next one will have some weird aliens and ALLEGORY spelled out in big letters.

(Of all the kinds of Star Trek geeks out there, I'm a Star Trek *narrative* geek.)

Had he pulled out a rapier, assumed a position like in Cam's photo, and yelled "En guarde", I'd have been much more impressed

Yeah, I would've, too. Sigh. Still, sword in the *future* is still fun.
 
 
wicker woman
16:08 / 26.05.09
It wasn't aimed at 'me' - it was aimed at the folks who knew Sulu from the original series and knew that he fenced, then?

No, just at people who, like Kirk apparently, view fencing as a foppish activity rather than a combat skill and that, also like Kirk, would be thrown off if it was mentioned on the way to the fight on the drill that fencing was the skill mentioned earlier as a means of volunteering.

It's like the joke that's been done in other movies where someone comes back into the cabin of an airplane and asks if there's "anyone who can fly this plane?" Some person volunteers, and then after having taken the controls, reveals that their experience amounts to being fully rated on Microsoft Flight Simulator or some other program. But then, of course, they fly the plane perfectly.
 
 
Neon Snake
19:16 / 26.05.09
No, just at people who, like Kirk apparently, view fencing as a foppish activity rather than a combat skill and that, also like Kirk, would be thrown off if it was mentioned on the way to the fight on the drill that fencing was the skill mentioned earlier as a means of volunteering.

Well, that's what I thought the joke was going to be.

But, then, once it had been set-up - well, he didn't fence, did he? That's what I'm saying - had he actually fenced, then brilliant - one in the eye for the "fencing's a bit foppish" crew (which would arguably include me).

As it was, the joke was neutered when he went all Crouching Tiger on the bad guys; because we all know that Wu-Dang trained monks aren't foppish in any sense.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
20:19 / 26.05.09
Boy, I'm glad you guys spent 17 posts discussing that. It really cleared everything up.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
21:50 / 26.05.09
I do agree though. Thought the fencing line was funny and would have been funnier had he fenced. But he didn't. He kicked ass with a non-fencing sword in a non-fencing style. Why say his skill is fencing when it isn't? Pointless inaccuracy in the script.

Although it would have been EVEN funnier had he pulled out a couple of white picket planks and some Ronseal and proceeded to kick ass with *them* ...

is there any history of movies designed just for the fans and how well did those movies do?

Serendipity, and how.
 
  

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