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Star Trek (2009 film)

 
  

Page: 123(4)

 
 
Whisky Priestess
21:51 / 26.05.09
And it did quite well, at least in the UK, IIRC.
 
 
wicker woman
03:15 / 27.05.09
Boy, I'm glad you guys spent 17 posts discussing that. It really cleared everything up.

Well, we could have spent 17 posts discussing your... wait, what is it you've added to this thread, again?
 
 
Mistoffelees
06:15 / 27.05.09
Serendipity, and how.

"Serendipity is a 2001 romantic comedy, starring John Cusack and Kate Beckinsale."

I am sure you mean Serenity, but this is slightly smile inducing, so I posted anyway.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
06:58 / 27.05.09
what is it you've added to this thread, again?

For the record I do agree and think that somewhere between the script and the screen someone said 'Hey, fencing's weak, let's have him leap around with a scimitar or something'. I'm sorry for my comment, if I'm going to accuse people of geeky overanalysis I'd be a hypocrite to then release my upcoming book, 'The Bit In Ghostbusters Where They Tell The Guy With A Cigar By The Lift That They Are Exterminators And Its Cultural Impact On The 21st Century'.
 
 
Neon Snake
07:26 / 27.05.09
It really cleared everything up.

Why, it certainly did, Phil!

I mean, I now know that Sulu fenced in the original series, that it was possibly a joke/call-out to the old-skool Trek fans, and have a much better knowledge of the origins and purposes of fencing as a combat style, vis-a-vis it's usefulness vs chainmail and heavy armour.

All of which was gained whilst in no way preventing anyone from talking about something else had they so desired, given the nature of internet messageboards!

Result!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:14 / 27.05.09
It seems almost too recursive to break a months-long Barbelith absence to correct Dead Megatron, but...

What you don't know, Neon, is that fencing started not as a sport, but as a fighting style made to bypass the protection of the medieval armor. You see, when the other guy has a full body armor, swiging a heavy two-handed sowrd around in an attempt to slash him is pretty much a waste of time. But if you instead have a thin, long blade with a very sharp point, you can stab the other guy through weak points in his armor, such as under the arm, the groin, the neck and whatnot, thus, together with the long bow, making the whole concept of heavy armor fully obsolete, and replacing the medieval knight with the duelist, like the Three Musketeers of the Renaissance.

Clue's in the question. They are called Musketeers because they have muskets - although those specific three musketeers were kicking around in the mid-17th Century, when nobody had worn full plate for a long time and the Renaissance was pretty much done. Gunpowder weapons, not light swords, were the thing that made heavy armour obsolete. Pre-gunpowder and post-mail, you were better off in hand-to-hand combat using a mace or an axe, which could break limbs through armour. There were swords designed to pierce mail armour, and they had no cutting edge - the tuck family - but they were much heavier, stiffer and generally longer than the duelling weapons that developed into the weapons used for fencing as we understand it. Generally, it's a bad idea to move within the arc of an armoured opponent's spadone in order to hope you can ping away and find a weak spot in his armour when your entire body is _unarmoured_ and thus an open target. All the stuff about quick, clean deaths is wrong but romantic.

Other notes: "fencing" can describe any form of combat with hand-held weapons, although it is usually restricted to bladed weapons - the swords we generally think of as used in fencing are used in sport fencing or Olympic fencing. And the epee in sport fencing does not have an effective edge - only hits with the point count. Otherwise, I think everything above is accurate.
 
 
Dead Megatron
12:59 / 28.05.09
Despite the unnecesary condescending tone, it's always good to see precise information. Personally, I was just aiming at a very generalistic description of what were centuries of development and evolution in close combat techniques, with the intent purpose of stressing the fact that saying you have "fencing training" before a fight is not really a funny joke and no more than that. I really don't think one should infer from my post that I believe that such evolution happened in a flash, and that there were actually post-renaiscence Dumas-esque duelists fighting against full-body armored, claymore-yelding medieval knights at some point, or that heavy blunt weapons were not also very useful against armor. My apologies to anyone who ever thought I should be their only source on any given subject, fencing or otherwise.


But hey, anything to attract people back to the 'lith!!! Plus, it's always amazing how this place seems to strecth out debates on points that are, at best, ancillary to the thread's main subject, often in very enlighting and suprising ways (and sometimes not, but that's the risk we take)
 
 
grant
17:08 / 28.05.09
OK, fine, fencing: What I was hoping the producers had seen.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:36 / 28.05.09
I have taught the word ancillary!

Otherwise, not sure what post you read, old chap, but glad to help out anyway. Having said which, it's a fairly recent innovation to describe the two-handed sword wielded by the Scots in their battles mainly against the English and each other as a "claymore", and it's notable that the claymore (if by that we mean the two-handed weapon used by the Scottish) was actually quite a bit shorter than the two-handed swords used by medieval knights - it was a late medieval weapon that possibly because of its nippier turing circle did survive pretty much to the end of the 17th century - that is, it was contemporaneous with the Three Musketeers - the dudes, rather than the book.

Swords are ace.
 
 
Dead Megatron
22:52 / 28.05.09
Could not possibly agree more
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
18:21 / 29.05.09
From speaking with a present day armourer a few years back, I learned that a claymore was given to either prisoners who were promised freedom for their time spent in battle for their lord and captor, or to lower class serfs. Both served as fodder in battle.

The claymore, being heavy and cumbersome, was held with two hands (at roughly crotch level) and pointed straight up. The person weilding it would be front-line and charge into battle. They would use short chopping blows, the sword not moving much between 90 and 50 degrees. The weight of the sword still made for powerfull blows aimed at heads and shoulders.

The claymore was given out to prisioners specifically because they were too unweildly to turn and swing at your captors, and the choice given was "fight for us or die."

The idea of a noble or romantic figure like William Wallace swinging a claymore around like a cleaver is complete BS. The nobility, when they fought at all, usually were the best armoured and best armed, with pistols, long daggers and one-handed swords, such as rapiers.

At least that's what I was told, by someone I consider an expert, if not merely a reliable source (Dude even teaches Medieval Skills courses at Algonquin College here in Ottawa)

Can anyone tell me if they've heard different?
 
 
Char Aina
03:23 / 30.05.09
Well, Wallace's sword - or so they say - is in his monument in Stirling. It's about six feet long, IIRC, from point to handle end.

Wikipedia calls it an antique claymore, but they also seem more than a wee bit suspicious about it actually being his.

There is legitimate reason to question the claim that this sword belonged to William Wallace, indeed it is pretty certain that it did not. The sword is more consistent in proportion and appearance with a zweihander. A zweihander is primarily a 16th century weapon; though the Wallace Sword does not share the blade geometry of typical zweihanders. The sword does not fit the Oakeshott typology of medieval longswords. The blade does not possess a fuller — a near universal feature of blades with this type of cross-section (lenticular)[2] except in processional swords of the Renaissance. The blade length is a full foot longer than longswords typical for the period.


(they also say it's only 5'6")
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:27 / 30.05.09
I dunno, old chap; I'm not suggesting that your armourer was taking the rip, freektemple, but I'm not sure this is accurate. Although two-handed weapons are often quite cumbersome, none are generally so cumbersome that they make it impossible to turn around, unless they are driven into the ground and you are tied to them.

I think it's pretty unlikely that William Wallace would have been carrying a rapier, since he was kicking around in the 13th and very early 14th century, some centuries before the rapier came to be - in fact, I'm not totally convinced that the rapier figured in military kit very much at all. Much the same response to the idea that he would be carrying a pistol. The long dagger sounds credible, although I'm not convinced it would offer a huge tactical advantage. Knights were usually horsed, and so tended to have weapons you could control while also riding a horse, but I don't know if that was the case for Highland knights in the 13th century - you could use horses for getting around, but the terrain wasn't exactly conducive to horse charges... anyone? Bueller?
 
 
Char Aina
17:22 / 30.05.09
Bobby the Bruce famously fended off a one-man horse charge by a knight called Henry de Bohun, who seized an opening to lance the unarmoured king before Bannockburn. Bruce moved aside and whacked him with his axe, cracking his skull and killing him, so the legend goes.

Later that day the English cavalry was basically defeated by a Scottish infantry with long spears. The Scots did have some archers and cavalry, but they were a fraction of their force.

That battle was in 1314, about ten years after Wallace was executed for treason.
 
 
grant
19:39 / 01.06.09
So does this mean Christopher Lambert would win in a fight against the new Sulu?
 
 
Lucid Frenzy
12:28 / 02.06.09
Yet (pretty much like the original series) there's no parallel journey for Kirk. He's initially presented as a reckless youth, stealing a car, fighting in bars. But there's no rite of passage for him, he passes effortlessly from stealing cars to assuming command of a starship by something of a backdoor. Even when he does dumb things, like fighting the security guards on deck, it's like we're just supposed to root for him.

I felt they did a similar thing with Johnny Storm in the (first) Fantastic Four film. When he's told never to take his flame to nova, I took it as some sort of code that his headstrong impetuosity was needing reigning in. Yet not only does nothing like this happen, he wins the day precisely bygoing nova!

I wonder what it says about our culture that any kind of self-discipline or even simple consideration of your actions is regarded as 'un-heroic'. Is it anything to do with the schizo rules we get given in daily life, micro-regulated at work yet bombarded by adverts telling us the road to success is just to give in to our indulgences?
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
15:59 / 02.06.09
Thanks for the insight Haus. I never said it's impossible for someone to turn and swing, just very difficult. Hell, I have a one-handed sword at home and if I tried to swing it around like they do in certain films I'm pretty sure my wrist would snap. But your point is very well taken. Too bad: I liked the "Prisioners with Claymores" fiction I was fed. It shattered a romantic myth I had about knights and really big swords and therefore seemed to ring true...

As for Kirk making easy transitions: In ST2, Kirk admits to cheating on the "Kobayashi Maru", the unbeatable test, so he can beat it. Because he cannot accept losing. Which is the whole lesson for him behind Spocks death: that sometimes you cannot win, especially when you are up against the inevibility of death.

Of course in ST3 he cheats again and ressurects Spock (Jesus Kirk!).

Maybe that's the moral behind all of Star Trek: Break the rules and win! Unpredictable humanity trumps all! U-S-A! U-S-... Oops, I mean FED-er-ATION! FED-er-ATION!
 
 
Lucid Frenzy
16:33 / 02.06.09
As for Kirk making easy transitions: In ST2, Kirk admits to cheating on the "Kobayashi Maru", the unbeatable test, so he can beat it.

Interestingly, in the current film Kirk's cheating on this test has no repercussions whatsoever. He's about to be upbraided for it when everything kicks off over Vulcan, and he ends up Captain of the Enterprise.
 
 
grant
18:02 / 02.06.09
I think there's an implication that Captain Pike had been keeping tabs on him. Maybe more.

Oh, and he does ace all his classes, although that's told and not shown....
 
 
Funkmonk
06:57 / 03.06.09
Great movie, looking forward to the sequals :] "Syler" pulls off Spock pretty well haha
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
12:41 / 03.06.09
I got the idea that Kirk might make a good captain because he's fearless, ready to do something stupid and impossible because it might save the Earth. Young Spock was determined to follow the rules and be cautious, but that wasn't going to work because the rules don't cover crazy guys from the future with red matter weapons.

I also thought they were making a point that Kirk would make a good captain because in an alternate timeline he had been a good captain despite having a very different background and personality, and I thought that was kind of stupid.

I agree that there really was very little development for him - I think the only time he changes his mind in the movie would be when the captain convinces him to join Starfleet. There really should have been *something* about him trying to reign in his recklessness. It seemed maybe that they tried to show this with his deal with Old Spock or maybe when he tried to negotiate with Nero, but if that's what they were going for it didn't come across clearly at all.

Isn't there an episode of TNG wherein Q demonstrates to Picard that his recklessness is in fact what makes him a good captain, and shows this through an "It's a Wonderful Life"-esque version of how boring and unimpressive his life would have been if he hadn't taken risks and gotten into barfights with Klingons...or something? (I didn't see the whole episode...)
 
 
jentacular dreams
14:16 / 03.06.09
Yeah, though I think the plot was that Picard got stabbed and learned the value of life. Or maybe he learned not to be reckless at that stage, rather than later on in his career.

The thing that really annoyed me was the Pike line of "people nowadays think too god-damn much, and you Jim Kirk, are the answer to that problem."

Translation: "chinstroke scifi/old trek is *boring* I tell you. Here's 2 hours of explosions, fights and improbable monsters, strung together into some semblance of a plot."
 
 
Lucid Frenzy
15:12 / 03.06.09
Oh, and he does ace all his classes, although that's told and not shown....

While I admit showing Kirk cramming for exams and not shagging green girls might not be ideal material for a summer blockbuster, I still think that distinction is significant. The implication is that Kirk passes those classes because that's the kind of guy he is, not because he worked hard.

This is probably reading way too much into it, but I can't help but wonder if there's a connection here with the public image of George Bush. He was a rich kid who screwed up, then got into the position he did because of family connections. That's someone we should all aspire to be like! Plus Kirk's logic-be-damned-we've-just-got-to-fight-the-foe rallying seems remarkably similar to Bush's against the CIA, or just about anybody else really.

NB I enjoyed the film despite the fact I'm harping on this point.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
11:07 / 19.06.09
Medieval Skills course

Surely the most fantastic (and fantastically useless) college course ever? (Apart from Ancient Greek...) Where do I sign up?
 
 
01
05:09 / 07.07.09
I think everyone involved with this film should be publicly executed.

And who, honestly, in their heart of hearts, can possibly disagree?



Some of the truest words ever to grace this site.
 
  

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