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Handing over - admissions

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:10 / 20.10.08
I'd rather he didn't return form his holiday to blame me for his lack of will and make it necessary. I'd quote it here, but it's been deleted.

Steady on, old chum. I've already reproduced the text above, having explained that I deleted it in the ultimately vain hope of averting a look-at-me fest, here. Might it possibly be an idea to call a bag of weed a dreidel, a baggie, a stocious, a patois, a paranoidwriter, a bit much? Seriously, old bean, I don't think these ditch sallies of yours make me as irritated as they do others, and I'm sure they do not stop you from being a lovely fellow in other situations, but they really do wear me down. As mentioned, it's a morale thing.

Anyway, time, I think, for one of my patented unconvincing appeals for calm. Let's take a breath, here.

Deja vroom: Something similar has been tried, and indeed something to that effect is being tried over at Liminal Nation. It is extremely time-consuming, and it is also a big ask - especially when the conversation on Barbelith at the moment is at the level of, say, MFreitas trying to shout down all who dare to talk seriously and with consideration about an issue arising from a comic. It simply doesn't seem right or reasonable.

Museum: That's approximately where I came in, and is probably the most functional system. The thing about that is that, essentially, it was tried and it didn't work, because while people are genuinely eager to help, or to enjoy the status of one-who-helps, actually getting them to do stuff is much more difficult. Keeping track of the appication with which people monitored applications was actually more hassle than just processing them oneself. That's one problem. Another problem is that, no offence, the number of people I would trust to fail to do the job is a chunk lower around here than it was the last time the community response failed.

A broader problem is that the requests to "open the board" fail to take into accout the actual character of the process. We don't actually have a registration. We have a security exploit, effectively, which is shared with people. Each time somebody is let in, the system becomes slightly less secure. I have proposed ways to make this more secure, and Tom has asked me to cleave to the original method; I am not convinced that this is wise, but it's his party. It would be relatively simple to "open the board" - one coud simply set the applications email address to share the details of the exploit with everyone who sent an email to it. This would, however, mean that banning was not simply somewhat difficult to verify, but that it would in all probability become functionally impossible ever to remove somebody from Barbelith again, with the technology in its current state, which is the only state it will ever be in unless it breaks further. In effect, it will become 4chan.

Now, that might work pretty well for a number of people here. Others would not care very much as long as they got to speculate about who the Black Glove is while a perpetual hate march goes on around them. It would certainly and quikcly remove the one thing that is arguably left to Barbelith - an attempt to rein in and discourage racism, sexism, homophobia and other such unpleasantness, and would let those of us who remain give up the long and ultimately uneven struggle.

Our current system is a fudge where people are let in even if they are clearly going to end badly (such as Fungus of Consciousness), if they can simply demonstrate their existence in a meaningful fashion. This luxury is vouchsafed by some sort of vague sense that we can stop people from getting banned and immediately coming round for another go. It may be a largely illusory sense but it has some basis in an approximation of fact.
 
 
HCE
23:22 / 20.10.08
The languages thing is getting less and less funny, by the way. Will you stop it soon?

That's the nasty part. Have you figured out yet that repeating something doesn't make it more true, it just makes you more annoying? Have you figured out yet that your posts are a nuisance because of their content, and not because of some completely mysterious grudge that's held against you? No? Should I tell you again?

Continuing to repeat that there was nothing tiresome or irritating in your note doesn't make it true. Characterizing me as hating you doesn't change the fact that my response to you is based on your having behaved and continuing to behave like a pest, and not on some vaporous personal animosity.

Do you get it now? Do you want to hear it fifty more times?
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
00:17 / 21.10.08
The thing about that is that, essentially, it was tried and it didn't work, because while people are genuinely eager to help, or to enjoy the status of one-who-helps, actually getting them to do stuff is much more difficult.

Yeah, I had vague memories of that being the system around the time when I first started reading the board, which was why I suggested it as something that was probably possible using the current technology. I do seem to remember a lot of increasingly confused and grumpy threads in Policy trying to keep the whole thing running, though.

As I probably didn't make clear enough earlier, I don't actually think getting new members in is a big issue (and I certainly wasn't trying to volunteer myself to do anything about it). Tons of people were signed up in July, and hardly any of them ever posted anything. It's getting people to post more that seems to be the main problem, and I have absolutely no idea how to go about solving that.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
05:37 / 21.10.08
...which makes me wanna ask - if low posting is one of the main problems, what difference does it make that noone's getting in at the moment? Seems we're stuck in a vicious circle where little posting leads to even less posting. I guess that one way to break that is for some number of people to club together, form a seed-group of sorts and sustain several interesting conversations over a period of time. Just don't ask me what these conversations will be about. Or who will constitute that group.
 
 
trouble at bill
14:04 / 21.10.08
i think that was pretty much being tried under the rubric of Aggressive Positivity (see Policy thread of that name). It just didn't really seem to hit critical mass and take off. But there's nothing to loose by trying again...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:58 / 21.10.08
LC: Do you think it;s bad enough letting new people in would make no difference?

Yeah, that's about it. New people have been coming in for a couple of years, yet the place keeps on getting quieter and quieter. There comes a point where those new people see how dead the place is and decide not to bother posting themselves - either because they've seen established posters starting threads and getting no response, so figure that'd be even more likely to happen if they were the ones posting those threads, or because they want to lurk for a while before posting, but there's nothing worth lurking behind - there's nothing to read while they're getting used to the style of discussion. You can't familiarise yourself with something that doesn't exist.

Boards that are successful are generally so because they're *about* something. What's Barbelith about nowadays? What's its identity? Because, from where I'm standing, it's not about anything. There are a million and one boards better suited to discussing the things that Barbelith spreads itself over too thinly, and there's no longer any community here worth talking about or to. Everything's become too fractured, most of the recognisable or substantial posters have disappeared.

Ultimately, we've been trying to revitalise the place for an awfully long time now and have had no success with that at all. The only way that it'd get any life back in isn't just with new people signing up, but also - and most importantly - if it were to receive a ground-level shake-up. Which is something that's impossible, full stop.

HCE> I don't have anything to do with processing admissions and - sorry, Haus - I don't want to have anything to do with it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:43 / 21.10.08
I find your instinct for self-preservation disturbing.
 
 
HCE
19:50 / 21.10.08
Thanks for the clarification, E. Randy.

I don't recall why "Aggressive Positivity" didn't work for me -- possibly the name just made it sound unappealing. To be honest, I don't post more than I do, at this point, primarily because I am very busy with school. When I do have a bit of time, it doesn't sound like fun to go to the effort of making a proper Barbelith-gold-standard post for the benefit a small number of people who may or may not feel like responding in a way that is going to help me understand something new (and a large number of people who are just going to be pests).

However, I can hopefully still talk about a movie with a gay character in it and not have to hear LOL UR GAY. Would those of you who still care at all be ok with that? I know that posting a short review with some comments or questions is a far cry from a proper thread starter, but it's at least approximately content, if not discussion.

With my workload at school, one review a week is about all I can afford to give away of proper thinking time. Would that be a good thing? A bad thing? A pointless thing? Right now what I have to offer is that I can tell you something about new movies that are coming out, and maybe give you a sense of whether they'd interest you. Again, it's not discussion, but maybe you'll decide to see a film that sounded interesting and discuss it with other people? Not scoring, but an assist?
 
 
deja_vroom
23:55 / 21.10.08
HCE just pointed out a very valid way of interaction with the board. I can relate to the feeling of just not having the time or patience these days to really actually writing up a good chunk of text about some trifle or other. HCE's offer of contributing with what he/she's involved with at the moment reflects my stance on this: I try to see the act of posting here as mutually beneficial - the board gets a new, hopefully useful topic, and, in writing, I organize my ideas. I suppose an introductory post on a certain topic should be rich with information and liveliness, but this doesn't mean it will have to be an essay with footnotes and bibliography. With a pinch of luck, what will matter is where the conversations will end, not how they started.

Also I have to say I don't really know if the slower rate of replies its necessarily a bad thing (unless, of course, that your post is a cry for help w/ deadline). If it means there will be less hot-headed prompt replies who really should not have been posted, if it means that people are taking their time thinking about how best engage a certain thread... (I know it's a rather unwarranted optimistic take on things, but that's me).
 
 
werwolf
10:24 / 22.10.08
[chuckingmyselfincuzicansparesomeminutes]

the really hopeless outlook on barb's future some posters display here is really, really worrying me. because the way i see it, yes, the board is rather inactive, even compared to when i initially joined (a meager 3 years and some months ago), and, yes, there's a technical problem that needs to be tackled but is out of reach.

then again, i've never experienced a board that could occupy such a HUGE array of topics and still make sense and not glide into mere postflinging, -bashing and other ghastliness.

so, whatever the status quo of lith, it is perfectly clear to me that it must not be abandoned.

also, it's not entirely true that letting in new members will not enliven the board. sure, it's a lot easier for any forum or board to keep active if it's about a specific thing, because it will draw attention of people who are genuinely interested in that one thing and therefore will have relatively more to contribute. for a board like barbelith this means that there won't be committed contributors in the traditional sense of having barbelith as their main hq for their topic of choice. rather there will be people who frequent other forums and boards and websites, which offer them the information and content they are most interested in, and then might come back to barbelith to post about things they have learned/read/heard/seen there. correct me if i'm (generally) mistaken in this assumption. this means that topics and postings will be fewer and far between naturally.
my conclusion is that in a situation like this, allowing new members in or even allowing guest posters can (and i think will) maintain at least acceptable levels of acitvity. because if even 1 in every 100 new members has something to say - even if it's utter bs, because then all others can go about dismantling it - that's at least something new, rather then hearing more or less the same things from the same people.

ok... i've gone on a bit too long there.
here, something actually useful:

1.] willing to help
i don't know what exactly i CAN do to help, but i'm ready to do whatever is feasible and manageable.

2.] moving?
i don't know if this has been discussed previously (it probably has) and also don't know if its a viable idea (and i haven't thought this through), but what about moving the board architecture onto something that is not 'broken'? aren't there any open source board/forum applications that could be used? same domain, same look, but different architecture?

3.] creating apps?
i wouldn't know myself but i'm sure that there are people here who do know how to create apps for, say, facebook, myspace, xing and so on. it might be worth a try to have barb widget its way into the more lively world of social webbing. of course, it is rather superficial there most of the time, but, hey, we'll never get to meet new people if we stay at home moping, right?

all fresh out of time.
not sure this is helpful, hope it does something good at least.
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:55 / 22.10.08
my conclusion is that in a situation like this, allowing new members in or even allowing guest posters can (and i think will) maintain at least acceptable levels of acitvity. because if even 1 in every 100 new members has something to say - even if it's utter bs, because then all others can go about dismantling it - that's at least something new, rather then hearing more or less the same things from the same people.

I'm not sure that it would provide us with that much of a benefit though. There's not that many "virile statesmen" left to actually dismantle foolspeak, and the foolspeak is so often the same-old-same-old-whatwouldGrantMorrisonthinkofyounow-huh??? balls. Plus engaging with the bs means people aren't involving themselves with nutricious threads.
 
 
HCE
17:36 / 22.10.08
even if it's utter bs, because then all others can go about dismantling it - that's at least something new, rather then hearing more or less the same things from the same people.

Is that something new, though? Seems a bit like all that's left? I will take a whack at putting up something contenty on Friday, and if it doesn't work, I'll lay off. At least my own conscience will be satisfied.
 
 
grant
20:39 / 22.10.08
Would those of you who still care at all be ok with that?

I might try to give you a hug.

Will Write For Airfare.
 
 
HCE
03:39 / 23.10.08
You'll need airfare to hug me! Or really long, plasticman arms...
 
 
werwolf
07:10 / 23.10.08
Is that something new, though? Seems a bit like all that's left?

yeah, you're right. it's just that i really don't want to let barbelith go just like that. and it seems to me that there's still a lot of potential left here, but those who could actually do something just go on about how "it's broke" and "it's no use anymore".

right, i don't have a solution. yet even when i do my bit and get no reply (granted, it's not a top notch topic and probably a little bit inane, but it's something at least) i still won't quit on barbelith. not anytime soon, anyhow.

so, if one of you people actually has an idea what we CAN do, instead of telling us what we CAN'T do, then please, please, please tell me and i WILL do it, if it's in my power.

p.s.: suggestions on moving and creating apps? is there anything we can work with or is it going off in the wrong direction?
 
 
HCE
13:05 / 23.10.08
Sorry, dude, I didn't see your thread. I will have a look tomorrow and see if I have anything useful to say. Nobody's allowed to see or touch the site code, so if that's what you mean by apps, it's been pretty comprehensively ruled out.

Edited to add: Sorry, by moving, did you mean moving to another site? I don't have the links handy and need to rush off, but have a look around. There were a number of lifeboat projects, I believe.
 
 
werwolf
08:50 / 24.10.08
by apps i meant widgets to be integrated into other websites (you know, something like a 'lith ticker for your own blog or myspace profile or what-have-you). might be tricky if no one is allowed to see the site's code.

moving: probably a stupid idea, but can't we take the content of 'lith and move it onto another board/forum software/architecture? of course, somebody would have to take care of the whole process and the refurbishing and re-designing (so it looks like the original 'lith). also, tom wouldn't probably go for the idea to let his domain be used as a front for a different board.
hm, perish the thought, not a good idea at all.
 
 
jentacular dreams
12:54 / 24.10.08
Well, he could always be offered ultimate mod powerz on the new board, but I suspect that the answer would be either 'no', 'sure, but later', or 'hang on, because some day I will return to smite the trolls and reward the righteous'.
 
 
HCE
14:39 / 24.10.08
Funnily enough, we had a talented chap around here named Breefield who built a fully functional copy of Barbelith (less the content) in a weekend or something, and who turned out to be so young I was embarrassed to use swear words in front of him. I hate it when young people are that smart, it makes me feel like a fossil. Ah, here we go: ________ Aboveground

Eerie, isn't it?
 
 
grant
19:14 / 24.10.08
Or eyrie?

(I now feel guilty about not poking around there more.)


By the way... a 'lith ticker for your own blog...

There are RSS feeds for individual fora here. I can't remember where Tom described them. I think it was the last thing he did before changing the edit post to have the time limit on it.
 
 
werwolf
07:08 / 27.10.08
There are RSS feeds for individual fora here.

true, and i've got them in my rss client, ardent little devil that i am. which is still not the same as fully functional ticker app, where you could maybe post something on the fly (from offsite).

thinking about it, though, it would be nice and all, but have to admit that it's not really a solution to the problem at hand. perhaps a placebo, even one that might do some good, but mos def not the solution.
 
 
werwolf
07:12 / 27.10.08
oh and aboveground is kind of spooky, but in a good way. like the highly intelligent, but autistic little brother, that no one really wants to talk about.
from the looks of it, that went nowhere, right?
 
 
grant
16:14 / 27.10.08
Well, not yet, anyway. There was never a full brain transplant from this patient to that one, or even a full cloning.
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
00:42 / 28.10.08
The main thing with that site was that people here made it very clear that they didn't feel it was appropriate for Breefield to 'copy' Barbelith. He went along with that, and asked for help coming up with ideas for a new board. Unfortunately, there didn't actually seem to be much interest in having that kind of discussion - you can see the abortive attempts at starting it in the policy section there - and so it ended up coming to nothing. I still think it was a shame, really.
 
 
HCE
01:44 / 28.10.08
I personally found it a bit daunting to start with a completely empty slate (no existing body of posts) and an almost completely empty room.
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
05:02 / 28.10.08
Yes, I think there was probably quite a lot of that going around. Personally I always felt, when posting on there, as if there were quite a lot of people watching silently. Which isn't a very nice feeling, really. I still think it's a pity that some of the very vigorous discussions that have happened on Barbelith (about name-changes, or alternative systems for moderation or banning, or the possibility of new fora, for example) didn't make the move over to a place where new ideas could actually have been implemented.
 
 
werwolf
07:17 / 29.10.08
also, the idea would be to move barbelith onto a properly functioning architecture and not abandon it in favor of something that looks like it but isn't. that's another dead end, then. -_-"

running out of ideas...
 
 
dark horse
03:50 / 30.10.08
okay who do i contact if i have friends who want to get admission to barbelith?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
04:35 / 30.10.08
Check the FAQ, I believe the procedure outlined on the first page is still in operation. However, as this thread amply lays out, things have not proceeded altogether smoothly of late. You can always PM Haus, of course, if you have any particular queries which can't be answered by looking at the FAQ or reading this and similar threads.
 
 
werwolf
15:08 / 07.11.08
soooo... is this discussion over, then? because, i dunno, did we get anywhere or did it just fizzle out?

 
 
Closed for Business Time
09:17 / 02.06.09
So, a new member? Wad up?
 
 
Mistoffelees
16:00 / 02.06.09
Hello UCGaucho! Welcome and post (more) often (than most right now).
 
 
pony
01:43 / 05.06.09
WHAT'S GOING ON???!!!
 
 
haus of fraser
12:49 / 05.03.10
do others agree that what I've done is bad form. If so I'll be happy to move for a deletion.
 
  

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