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Handing over - admissions

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
20:13 / 16.10.08
Also, the current admissions system has nothing to do with "forwarding an email". Pay attention.
 
 
Char Aina
00:34 / 17.10.08
I am aware of the admissions process. You said you would forward my friend's email address to Tom with next batch. I sent you said email address, and a handful of others. You didn't forward those emails to Tom.

Is there any point in sending you some names and addresses again? Or should I wait and see how the land lies after this discussion?
[...]
bung her email in. I'll put it in the next batch.

That led me to believe that you would forward the addresses in question to Tom. You didn't do so over the next two months, and you have now said you did not because of the private message of JUDEGEMENT.

Was this the one where I asked if you were soon to stop the language-based-hate satire? Where I said The languages thing is getting less and less funny, by the way. Will you stop it soon? Or maybe you mean the one where I said I'm sorry, but I've heard that joke before. I'll stop asking you to stop. I'm getting the feeling it is unlikely to work?

Or, perhaps, when I grew more frustrated with your responses and said:

There is no hostility here. There is only my desire for you to stop the comedy racist banter in an unrelated thread (one which I sent when emailing to ask if folk still wanted in). When asked to stop you provided more. Based on that response I'm assuming you'll continue until you've rinsed it to your satisfaction.

Clearly I was agitated, as I fell into the laziness of calling your comedy banter racist, which you then corrected in your reply.

I can't find the one that uses racist language or says mandem. Could you forward it to me?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:34 / 17.10.08
OK, apparently this has not been made clear enough. Tom is almost completely absent from the remaining management functions of Barbelith. He intercedes to ban people when Randy and/or I ask him to. That's it. Theoretically, Tom maintains a list of emails of users on Barbelith, but there is no basis to suppose that anything happens with these. At no point did I mention forwarding emails to Tom. I said that I would put them in the next batch, sc. of people to invite to Barbelith. And then my will died.

Likewise, no mention was made of private messages containing racist language or cod Patois - these things took place on the open board. However, I don't have time for this, and it's doing nothing for my despair.

You know, somebody mentioned the other day that I'm taking Barbelith too seriously. I think they are wrong, but also right.
 
 
Char Aina
10:48 / 17.10.08
Ah, right. So you were bunging them in the next batch of those to be processed. My apologies.
Folks had been waiting a long time and had been vouched as real. I think that may be why I assumed you would not need much time to process them, and that you woudl merely pass them on.



The crux of my problem, though, that asking you to stop your increasingly less funny anti-iberian comedy shtick prompted you to stall entry, remains the issue. I don't think the fact that I use the words galdem and mandem disqualifies me from saying so, neither does my use of Americanese, Swahili or Afrikaans. Those are issues for another thread.

You 'joked' that knowing me was a barrier to entry, and then you blocked entry for two months because you didn't like me asking you to stop rinsing a joke. The issue is not whether I call a bag of weed collie, dagga or boom, or if I call a man brother, bro, brah, bred, b, blood or comrade. The issue is that you let personal feelings affect your performance of a functional role. The issue is that you used the small power in that role to punish me, through my acquaintances, for daring to ask you to stop repeating a joke.


There have been a few people suggesting we let people in more easily than we currently do. I have been one of those. I have said why, and I am happy to explain how I feel about that again or in more depth.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:48 / 17.10.08
Lusophone, not Iberian. The rest later. If the sheer futility of the process does not overwhelm me.
 
 
Char Aina
20:18 / 17.10.08
It's a very personal question, but... does she speak any Iberian languages? If not, bung her email in. I'll put it in the next batch.

I don't really see why you'd address that over the more serious point. And even if it does need discussed, you said Iberian languages, not lusophone.

Has the haus suit been hacked?
 
 
dark horse
20:54 / 17.10.08
a haus of millions, if your that depressed i think maybe it is time for a change. maybe you should hand over the admissions duties? life critic might find it less depressing... just my $2.....
 
 
HCE
22:19 / 17.10.08
Holy fuck, this has got to be a new, stupid low, even for Barbelith. blackstallion seems to be the voice of moderation and reason here. I vote we turn admissions over to Hir.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:19 / 17.10.08
I don't really see why you'd address that over the more serious point.

Phone browser.

Blackstallion: I think you should take over admissions. You seem very wise.

EDIT: Crossposted with HCE
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:20 / 17.10.08
Is two moderators a quorum?

EDIT: HCE isn't a moderator. Two members?
 
 
HCE
23:51 / 17.10.08
Sorry, I am not a moderator.
 
 
Char Aina
13:50 / 18.10.08
So the post has now been deleted. Hiding mistakes made like that is a pretty weak maneuver but at least we agree it was not a helpful return to this thread.
 
 
Char Aina
13:59 / 18.10.08
I think giving admissions to wildstallion has got to be better than nobody getting in ever. Waiting over a year for a message board is just fucking ridiculous.

I'm sorry if you have suffered as a result of taking on this task, Haus. I think it's clear b
Barbelith has suffered as a result of the lack of members. If the process is good for neither you nor the board it seems you should probably step back.


I'll direct you to my post of a couple of months ago, where I asked about opening membership up. The fact that you were too self-involved to bother to address that in a productive fashion, etc.

I think it is clear there has been a problem for a while.

What are the practical implications of deciding to open it up? Would we need new code? New rules?


Is an inability to ban effectively our only real obstacle? Are there others?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:08 / 18.10.08
I'm sure I'm not the only person here who wishes you'd give it a rest. This became tiresome years ago.

For the record, I still don't know if Darkmatter's been banned, despite a couple of emails going between Tom and myself. So yes, an inability to ban is still the major problem.

That, plus the fact that even if it were decided to open membership up, that'd also require action on Tom's part.
 
 
Char Aina
14:17 / 18.10.08
Randy, I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm unhappy with my friends being barred from Barbelith. I think I have a valid grievance.

Feel free to dissuade me of that.

This is about telling cherry picked people about the site to try and increase numbers and traffic, telling them to apply, and then them waiting endlessly to get in. This is about an increasingly stagnant board being closed to new members. This is about petty personal feelings getting in the way of the interests of the board.

You may not like me, and you may not like the way I say things, but I don't see how you can say I haven't got a point.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:22 / 18.10.08
Now:

So the post has now been deleted. Hiding mistakes made like that is a pretty weak maneuver but at least we agree it was not a helpful return to this thread.

It was deleted in the hope that it would head off a tedious and pointless look-at-me sausage fest in the standard style, which it clearly failed to do. Since you have subsequently, admittedly most likely out of a compulsion to make everything about you rather than simple deceit, fibbed repeatedly about what the text contained, here it is again:

It's not just them, although there is a relation. Basically, I've been too depressed to process any applications. I was gearing up to when I got a snotty PM from Life Critic over there complaining about my schtick about Portuguese speakers in this thread. Life Critic, who was uncommonly (although arguably blessedly) silent during MFreitas' attempts to shut down discussions of race, and indeed through the welter of misrepresentation and ghastliness that followed, the awfulness of which inspired same schtick. Life Critic who opened his account on Barbelith with tales of his mate, who was as rinky dink a chink as you ever did see. And, of course, Life Critic, winner of the prize for the second most random use of ethnic slang on Barbelith. Perfectly nice chap, as far as I can tell, but a living nightmare on Barbelith.

At which point, really, my will broke. The thought at that moment that LC's mates coming in was going to be in any way a good thing seemed like a stretchy stretch, but it would be entirely unfair to exclude them and let in other people who would be just as bad. Faced with this dilemma, I sank into despair, and nobody got in. What probably happens next is that at some point I grit my teeth and get back on the arse. I'm thinking about what happens after that, and I suggest you do likewise.


Reproduced because you appear not to have read it, so overpowering was the chorus of ITS ALL ABOUT ME IT IS ALL ABOUT ME going on in the old Life Cranium. So, basically, everything you have said on this page has been based on a totally false premise - that it's all about you, that you are being persecuted, that your friends, who have been individually picked for their Life Critic approved qualities, are being kept off because of their association with you (if only I could, at this point, solve the problem so easily). All self-deception in order to be the story. You are not the story here, and you have, once again, turned a Policy thread into a thread about you. Yes, please tell us what you call a bag of weed. WE ARE INTERESTED.

Meanwhile, back at the actual issue. The TALK ABOUT ME show aside, the basic issue is the same. I am no longer sure that it is a good thing for people who want to join Barbelith to join Barbelith, nor that it is a good thing for people on Barbelith to be given the opportunity to subject new members to themselves. The farrago above has rather supported my anxiety. I was buckling under when Life Critic decided that making it very clear that he and his friends had a very high standard and needed to have that respected if they were to offer their quality (no jokes about not liking Portuguese speakers rinky dink too gay in a bad way de man dem you gonna shoot me Flyboy oh God oh God). I am uncertain of what my duty to Barbelith is. It would be nice to pass this problem on, or to circumvent it, but passing it on would involve competent replacements and modifications to create a functional system - Randy, interested? - and circumventing it involves problems which have already been explained at length.

Bottom line, the technology of Barbelith is broken and will not be fixed. We can work around that to an extent, but doing so involves a series of tradeoffs, and in every case we are working against an inexorable tendency towards total failure. Everything discussed here, in terms of the positive impact on Barbelith, is therefore at best a temporary solution, and further one which presupposes that it can be treated like a non-broken board that is not trending towards failure. Faced with that, maybe we should just talk about ourselves.
 
 
deja_vroom
23:32 / 18.10.08
I think that's the way to go about it. In a list of priorities, ensuring that Barbelith is alive and healthy should be addressed first than the entrance of new members; it only makes sense. One could really just agree on an extended period of... quarantine?, and see what happens - if the forums pick up some momentum, how's the quality of discussion and so forth. Right now it's a bit dead, so it's not like the outsiders are missing anything...
 
 
Char Aina
06:03 / 19.10.08
You made this about me when you came back to this thread and blamed my PM for your lack of will to continue.
I'd rather we just let people in, and not discuss me at all.

If there is anything about me you want to discuss, such as what I have said on this board over the last five or six years, then can we please do it elsewhere?
 
 
Char Aina
06:12 / 19.10.08
In a list of priorities, ensuring that Barbelith is alive and healthy should be addressed first than the entrance of new members; it only makes sense.

I think we've tried that, though, haven't we? We're basically at a point where everyone's accepted that what board structure we have is all we will have. None of the various reanimation initiatives have worked for terribly long either, and I don't think they can with the board as it is.

At this stage, to stay alive and healthy, change is what we need. If we don't get new members, then nothing changes beyond ever reducing numbers, and that way lies slow death.

It's been a while coming, and it's a wee while off, but without new folk it will happen.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:03 / 19.10.08

Bottom line, the technology of Barbelith is broken and will not be fixed. We can work around that to an extent, but doing so involves a series of tradeoffs, and in every case we are working against an inexorable tendency towards total failure. Everything discussed here, in terms of the positive impact on Barbelith, is therefore at best a temporary solution, and further one which presupposes that it can be treated like a non-broken board that is not trending towards failure.


I don't see a huge amount of point in continuing to say the same thing over and over again. If anyone has thoughts on the actual topic of this thread, I'd be happy to hear them. Honestly, the status of this discussion as a public one taking place on the open board is just likely to attract more grandstanding. If you think you are competent to assist, or have any genuinely productive ideas, it might be best to PM them.
 
 
Char Aina
15:42 / 19.10.08
I don't see why you need to be like this.
YOU make it about me by coming back after two months and blaing me for your inability to process emails. YOU completely ignore my thoughts in the topic throughout the thread and then claim I am too self involved to make any point of value. YOU decide my input to this forum is worthless, as though your opinion is the will of Barbelith by virtue of it being your opinion.

And yet, somehow, it's still all about me.

I really don't see why you need to be like this.

We need to start letting people in, and YOU need to let go.
 
 
deja_vroom
19:47 / 19.10.08
I think we've tried that, though, haven't we?

Maybe you're just too impatient, then? The "Aggressive Positivity" thread, - which for me seems to formalize our agreement about the need for coordinate action in order to try and revive the board (with several other forum-specific threads springing out of this one) - started only in 14.09.08...
 
 
deja_vroom
20:01 / 19.10.08
But anyway, sorry, this is not what this thread is about.

If I remember it correctly, the biggest concern would be to prevent mole people from registering multiple ficsuits in order to harass, right?

Here goes nothing, but: Maybe we could set up a written interview for the screening process? One can get to know a lot about people by the way they write. Nothing too big, maybe 5 questions tops, or we ask a few paragraphs on a topic. Many companies require this type of information from the applicant for a job opening, so maybe this type of analysis could help the board (I personally favor the "ask for a few paragraphs on a topic".)

I know it borders on the insensitive to suggest yet another time-consuming, work-demanding item, but I'd be up to help alleviating the admission work, and maybe with the help of some more people we can speed up the whole process.

Does this make sense? Anyway, I'm just braindrizzling.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:05 / 19.10.08
That's what we had before this and it was no better.

I've not got a functional keyboard atm and am limited to an on-screen one, so expanding will take me hours. Which I cba with. But, really, the drop-off in posting over the last couple of months has been - or was a sign of - the final nail.

Barring shitstorms in P&H, I think it's blatantly obvious that there's no future for lively discussion here.

Sure, if you really want to try, go for it. Don't get yr hopes up, tho.
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
02:50 / 20.10.08
If we don't get new members, then nothing changes beyond ever reducing numbers, and that way lies slow death.

Yeah, but new people have been coming in - in bursts, admittedly, but there have been a lot of new members admitted over the last few months. Look at how many people were signed up in July. The problem is that most people never actually post anything.

As I understand it, the main issue in admitting new members is that we don't want certain people (or one certain person) who have already been banned to register multiple suits. To help avoid this, we've been encouraging applicants to provide either a work or uni email address, or evidence of a substantial web presence. The latter, presumably, are a lot more time consuming.

As an alternative to the interview approch outlined above, could we not just set up a gmail account which applications were filtered to, and to which a posse of volunteers had access to? People could log on whenever they had time and process a couple of applications - any which seemed suspicious could be marked and left for someone like Haus, who knows what to look out for. However, I'm suggesting this without any knowledge of the process involved, and it could well be unworkable. It does seem a shame, though, that applications are currently only being handled by one person, and that that person appears to currently detest about 90% of the people on the board, possibly including himself.
 
 
Quantum
12:19 / 20.10.08
It does seem a shame, though, that applications are currently only being handled by one person, and that that person appears to currently detest about 90% of the people on the board, possibly including himself.

1) Whoever handles the applications, it will still be broken, even if it's team of dedicated ever-happy superhackers who love everyone on 24/7 alert so that's really irrelevant.
2) Everyone on the board is entitled to their opinion of everyone else on the board, but how will ad hominem attacks help here? Please don't.
3) It's a shame the board is broken, but it is- any attempts at solutions have to take that into account.
 
 
jentacular dreams
12:24 / 20.10.08
Museum is wise. Any hope there? I'd happily volunteer.

Well part of the problem with new members might be just how long they've been waiting to be admitted. How far back does our backlog stretch? Because if we're working through applications in the order the applied(?) and a lot of the july registrants applied in (for example) december 2006 they may have lost some of their enthusiasm for the in all probablility now silent thread which prompted their application in the first place.
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
12:41 / 20.10.08
That genuinely wasn't meant as an attack. Haus said earlier that:

I am no longer sure that it is a good thing for people who want to join Barbelith to join Barbelith, nor that it is a good thing for people on Barbelith to be given the opportunity to subject new members to themselves

'Detest' was perhaps a little strong, but that certainly doesn't sound like a very positive attitude towards the board. It seems fairly clear that Haus would prefer not to be responsible for applications, and so I think it's a shame, both for him and the board in general, that he has to be in that position.

If it came over as aggressive, I sincerely apologise.
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
12:44 / 20.10.08
And I'm afraid I don't understand this at all:

Whoever handles the applications, it will still be broken, even if it's team of dedicated ever-happy superhackers who love everyone on 24/7 alert so that's really irrelevant.
 
 
Char Aina
15:11 / 20.10.08
I think it's blatantly obvious that there's no future for lively discussion here.

On our current course, I think you're right. There have been some good conversations nevertheless, and there have been some spikes of activity, but even the things like the filesharing thread have been inactive for a while.

Do you think it;s bad enough letting new people in would make no difference?
 
 
HCE
15:12 / 20.10.08
museum, I believe Quantum means that applications currently rely not on an automated or semi-automated process, but on trust. I assume that E. Randy and Haus are even more careful with who they let in than they would be if they were only answerable to themselves, much as people are sometimes tidier in the homes of others than in their own.

This is one of the things that's wrong with toksik's most recent flare-up. He can complain all he likes about Haus, but Haus is not actually a surly waiter who's not bringing our snacks fast enough -- admissions are not his job. He's helping out with admissions as a favor, and the alternative isn't an open gate and everybody let in quickly, the alternative is nobody let in at all.

I have a feeling that the way to make Haus feel more like doing favors is probably not to be a dick to him and then badger him about letting in one's 'cherry-picked' friends, who probably seem a lot less appetizing at that point.

Can anybody see about trying to get old members back? I know we all have wishlists of people wish would post more, or indeed ever. A lot of people who left didn't actually torch their accounts, I think they just stopped posting. Wouldn't you rather have bengali in platforms back, or illmatic?
 
 
Char Aina
15:23 / 20.10.08
Maybe you're just too impatient, then? The "Aggressive Positivity" thread, - which for me seems to formalize our agreement about the need for coordinate action in order to try and revive the board (with several other forum-specific threads springing out of this one) - started only in 14.09.08...

Maybe, yeah. All the aggressive positivity seems to have died down, though. I know the policy thread I started to discus energising Radio and Music went all but nowhere.

Can you think of any examples of currently ongoing action? How well are they doing?
 
 
Char Aina
15:39 / 20.10.08
HCE, CAn you please call me by my chosen name? I've talked about this before.


I appreciate that Haus is not in the employ of Barbelith and I'd rather not have to accuse him of mismanaging a job he's doing without remuneration. I'd rather he didn't return form his holiday to blame me for his lack of will and make it necessary. I'd quote it here, but it's been deleted.

But yeah.

I did cherry pick my friends. I did so to be sure they wouldn't trainwreck on Barbelith, because, well, because people would be looking for exactly that from my friends.
I tried to make clear that they were nice people with interests in common with folks here because I was aware that folks like you think so little of me that you might tar my friends with my past, as Haus did upthread.

Thing is, I hang out here. Doesn't it make sense I would hang out with people like all of you in real life? I knew iamus before Barbelith. He's alright, isn't he?
We don't see eye to eye, and I'm content to accept that. The thing is, I get on really well with other members, and want to continue to enjoy those relationships. I'd also like to involve other friends in that.
 
 
HCE
16:16 / 20.10.08
I will not call you by your chosen name, no. I call people by the name by which I believe they are most widely known, because it makes it easier to keep track of somebody's posting history, and I think that history provides a context for reactions like mine to you.

What you seem not to understand, either because you are willfully obstinate or genuinely stupid (I've never quite figured that out) is that not wanting to let on a bunch of people hand-selected by you is a comment on you, not on the people. They didn't select themselves, you selected them.

What I am sure you will continue to fail to understand is that what made Haus despair* was not the prospect of getting more of your friends in around here, though how that could not strike despair into the heart of any reasonable person is beyond me, but rather your nasty notes to him.

*I don't know why you think you're the only person who reads this thread.
 
 
Char Aina
16:42 / 20.10.08
your nasty notes to him.

That's what he said, yeah. The nasty note in question went as follows:


DELETED@gmail.com
DELETED@gmail.com

There are a few more(3, maybe 4), but they haven't got back to me yet and I'd rather wait to find out they still want in before I hand over their address again. I have asked them, so the ball is in their court.

The languages thing is getting less and less funny, by the way. Will you stop it soon?


LC.



Which was far from nasty.


They didn't select themselves, you selected them.


Yes, much as I selected Barbelith. My friends are a lot like a lot of people here. Iamus is one of them.
The only person to gain entry after I suggested they try so far was Jester. She did alright, I think. Your hatred of me notwithstanding, I think she is a good example of a friend of mine.

I'm sorry you feel compelled to continually run me down, but I don't see the need to punish me through my acquaintances.
 
  

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