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Handing over - admissions

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
21:17 / 18.08.08
I tried to share out admissions a while back, but nothing much came of it. Looking back, there was an extent to which I think that I set my sights too high. I was looking for people who I was confident would be conscientious in their duties, and would be able to weed out any of our familiar trolls, but would also be able to put in a conscience screen on people who were obviously going to flame out in an apocalypse of racy or sexy headwrong. Which I think was optimistic , really. So, the process fell into abeyance.

However. Too much of the responsibility for the nominal function of this place is concentrated in one person's hands, which is a problem. And, right now, I'm suffering from motivation problems. After yet another swampfucking engagement trying to get people to interact at least as if they could pretend to be human beings, I understand why - the genuinely interesting people who want to join never say anything, people get mocked by the ones who have gone feral, or just turn up having not read the label and expecting the fan site that some of our membership would love the place to become. Frankly, it's a downer.

So, round two. I'll need to wok out a system that is reasonably breakage-proof, but in theory I think it would be a good idea if we tried, while there are still any people around here with prehensile thumbs, to spread the work a little, and build some redundancy into the system. I suggest we talk about this here, for the moment. If we can't sort something out, then there are a couple of other options - putting the system on automatic or just abrogating the system and let Tom sort it - which might mean functionally that the board is closed again.

So, starting points. Who wants to get involved? And what, philosophically, should our entry managers be doing? Gatekeepers or facilitators?
 
 
Tsuga
23:14 / 18.08.08
I'd be fine with helping, if the logistics are worked out and it's felt I'm dependable enough. I'm not going anywhere (if the site doesn't go anywhere and I don't die soon), so there's that. Is the current setup that you access the admission requests email, and send the appropriate emails to Tom to admit? Or are you able to send the admission verification yourself?
How much vetting do you see in the process, simply finding that someone is real, or doing any further digging?
 
 
grant
00:48 / 19.08.08
I could do something. My personal functionality is still limited to the extent where having email exchanges ("Hi, I am XXX!" "Hi, XXX, do you like pie!" "Oh, no, filthy pie!" "You know, that might be an issue...") with any number of applicants greater than, say, two a week would be problematic, since I get called away randomly and often.

But I could definitely do something.
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:16 / 19.08.08
I have email access from work and at home via hotmail, so I've got no problems handling a few applicants. It might be an idea for us to throw together a standard initial response to applicants which lays out things like "we don't care if you were joking" and "some of us like George, but y'know, what he thinks about us doesn't keep us awake at night", etc.

How are you handling the admissions process at the moment Haus (regarding actual mechanics)?
 
 
Fist Fun
09:37 / 19.08.08
I'm happy to help out. Working from home at the moment so have copious free time.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:47 / 19.08.08
When membership was open, were we absolutely flooded with trolls? I mean, what was the ratio of trolls to people who you wanted to talk to?
 
 
Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns
14:52 / 19.08.08
Good point, I don't actually remember the ratio being very high at all? Is that right?. However it was a hell of a lot easier to ban offenders back then, possibly due to Tom's availability etc.
 
 
Feverfew
18:23 / 19.08.08
I would like to help out, if possible.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:50 / 19.08.08
When membership was open, were we absolutely flooded with trolls? I mean, what was the ratio of trolls to people who you wanted to talk to?

I think that's a false dichotomy. However - Barbelith history lesson ALERT! -membership ceased to be an automatic process to prevent not a general _influx_ of trolls, but to prevent a fairly small number of quite fucked up people registering dozens of suits and using them to stalk and harass. Unfortunately, the inability to get a working ban mechanism, and then Tom's reluctance to open the board up again without one, especially when he stopped reading it, and then the end of technical support for Barbelith, and then and then and then, meant that we ended up with a series of variations on our current unwieldy system.

One option is to give up on the idea of controlling access and just setting up an automatic response to any email submission that gives people the means to get on the board. In terms of how many people are turned away, that wouldn't make much difference. It does mean that if there was serious trolling you wouldn't have any resort but the inefficient and hard-to-implement cookie/DNS banning that Tom can be prevailed upon to implement. It would speed things up hugely, for good or ill.

If we don't do that... I'll think about how to do this.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
20:27 / 19.08.08
At the moment it seems like the old boat's going to sink before ugly chicory face manages to stalk anyone else and the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Most people can't even keep up admin work for money, never mind good intention so open it up and let's fuel the place with our ability to beat up real live tigers.

This may sound flippant but really, there were about 10 of us doing the entry at one time and everyone let it slide after a few weeks unless they were constantly reminded. Even if the system was easier... I think Qalyn's got it right.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:49 / 20.08.08
I'm inclined to agree - and I also think that the current system sets the bar to entry unrealistically high - one result of which is that often only people who are demented to meet Grant Morrison or find allies in their Magickal experimentation. Ideally, clicking on the "join" link would take you to the ID creation page, although that would involve a change, albeit a small one, to the setup of the board. Sending an automatic email to any applicant doesn't require that change, but it would probably need Tom to sign off on it in a way that delegating doesn't.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:38 / 20.08.08
Nina- At the moment it seems like the old boat's going to sink before ugly chicory face manages to stalk anyone else and the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Most people can't even keep up admin work for money, never mind good intention so open it up and let's fuel the place with our ability to beat up real live tigers.

Haus- I'm inclined to agree - and I also think that the current system sets the bar to entry unrealistically high - one result of which is that often only people who are demented to meet Grant Morrison or find allies in their Magickal experimentation. Ideally, clicking on the "join" link would take you to the ID creation page, although that would involve a change, albeit a small one, to the setup of the board. Sending an automatic email to any applicant doesn't require that change, but it would probably need Tom to sign off on it in a way that delegating doesn't.

I endorse these messages.
 
 
Evil Scientist
14:11 / 20.08.08
I am pretty unreliable with these things to be honest, as long as it's a straightforward process then I'm happy to give it a try.

Still, throwing open the gates might be the boost the site needs, and, like instabans, at this point it can't hurt.
 
 
Char Aina
15:36 / 20.08.08
I think throwing the site open is long overdue. It will probaby be shit for a bit, but I think it has been needed for ages.

There are some folk I know who have been trying to join for a while. They aren't trolls. I've just checked my emails, and one of them emailed me about applying on 20/01/2007, over a year and half ago. Keen activist and egalitarian, that one. I'm sure he'd have some chat. Another asked me what was going on with his application on 28/11/2007, and still hasn't heard back. Keen musician, interested in the occult, recently introduced to comics, friend of hope street studios. There have been a few others too, but i imagine the list will soon get boring.

I don't want to doggedly chase their applications until they get in, because I recognise the process is already a pain in the arse and didn't want to make it worse.

That said, I think it is clear there has been a problem for a while.

What are the practical implications of deciding to open it up? Would we need new code? New rules?
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
15:58 / 20.08.08
Well to be frank part of the problem has always been that people don't check their email spam boxes.
 
 
Char Aina
16:06 / 20.08.08
Yeah.
That was among the first things I suggested to the two I mentioned, and to the others. I'm fairly confident most did check when I suggested it. It's possible they didn't do so promptly or effectively. That said, at least one person I know lost interest after a few months of wait and she probably didn't bother to look.

Is it possible some were rejected? What are the criteria folks have failed on?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:30 / 20.08.08
Did they mention they knew you?

Joking! I kid!

I'd have to look to see who was managing and how at that point. We had some volunteers previously who did a degree of nob all, and might have handled their cases and neither passed them nor alerted us to their not having been passed. The old method, as Nina says, died completely because nobody could face doing it.

These days, theoretically people are kept out if they have no online identity and use a freemail account (although this seems increasingly discriminatory and is very hard to police), if their application contains hate speech, if they are Portuguese or belong to any nation with a Portuguese-speaking population (Angola, Brazil, Mozambique) or minority population (East Timor, New England - best not to risk it) or if they advocate acts of non-consensual physical congress or terrorism, magical or otherwise, in their application email.

Those who use the phrases "googled the Invidibles", "blew my mind" and "practising chaote" allowed in, often against better judgement.
 
 
Char Aina
17:56 / 20.08.08
Did they mention they knew you?
Joking! I kid!


The thought did cross my mind, to be honest. IIRC I reccomended one to you by PM, giving you his email address, and nothing happened. I don't know what went on between my PM and now, so I have no idea what caused his lack of membership.

It may be that the email was missed, or something similar.
 
 
Char Aina
18:13 / 20.08.08
Actually, Is there any point in sending you some names and addresses again? Or should I wait and see how the land lies after this discussion?

I'll email folks again if you say yes to make sure they still want in before forwarding you names.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
18:14 / 20.08.08
Under the appalling system it was incredibly rare that we didn't pass people's email on. We had four people who were actively failed, anyone else who sent their email in 2005/2006 who failed didn't respond.
 
 
Char Aina
18:45 / 20.08.08
The ones I'm thinking of were all later than that except one, and I passed her name on to Tom myself.
I was one of the folk checking back then, but I was unable to continue due to pressures of time. I've had a look and found the email I sent to Tom; that went on 18/11/2005. She's one person who might have missed the email(She says she didn't, but human fallibility and all that). She was definitely passed on, though.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
21:08 / 20.08.08
Well if the problem is with Tom there's shit all we can do about it.
 
 
Char Aina
21:54 / 20.08.08
I don't know that it is... Her application isn't the one I really wanted to talk about, though. As you say, if it's Tom's error we can't do shit all. If it's her error, then we can't do shit all either.
I'm more concerned with the other folks who've fallen through the cracks since, if indeed they have.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:32 / 20.08.08
It's a very personal question, but... does she speak any Iberian languages? If not, bung her email in. I'll put it in the next batch.
 
 
Neon Snake
06:36 / 21.08.08
Those who use the phrases "googled the Invidibles", "blew my mind" and "practising chaote" allowed in, often against better judgement.

Shit, I think those examples were copy-and-pasted straight from my application. Including the spelling error.

And you missed out "bringing about a paradigm shift".


*ahem*

Anyways, I find currently myself in a slightly, um, fluid state of employment, so can spare a reasonable amount of time to help out if needed.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:05 / 22.08.08
Just in case anyone is troubled, this bit:

if they are Portuguese or belong to any nation with a Portuguese-speaking population (Angola, Brazil, Mozambique) or minority population (East Timor, New England - best not to risk it)

Not true.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:18 / 22.08.08
But- but that's a double negative! Kind of. (in b4 Haus corrects double-post and ruins the joke, flimsy though it may be).

On a more serious note, I was going to throw my hat into the ring only to return to work this week to find our internet usage has been savagely curtailed and it's not really an option.
 
 
werwolf
06:57 / 29.08.08
offering my help.

don't really have that much time [busy being a not-quite-but-almost-there workaholic], but i might use my fangs and claws to maul trolls and flamers.

that is, if barbelith opens the gates - which i personally would welcome. fresh meat is a good thing, even if some batches are rotten and tasteless.
 
 
Tsuga
23:32 / 13.10.08
I suppose now's as good a time as any to ask if there is any intent or desire to move ahead with this? Are there still requests to join?
 
 
Char Aina
00:31 / 14.10.08
I did get an email from a friend a day or so ago, and she says she's had no sign of her invite. I did suggest she check her junk, but so far no sign.

I'm not sure what the problem is, but something is clearly not working.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
20:21 / 15.10.08
Your friends seem to have a lot of trouble getting invites.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
00:21 / 16.10.08
You probably shouldn't bother until after the US election, if Palin becomes VP we're all going to die anyway so there's really no point in allowing people onto an Internet message board.
 
 
Char Aina
16:29 / 16.10.08

I made a reasonable request; that you remove your threadrotting satire from the policy where it might cause undue offence to new members or those seeking membership(who may not know you and one particular Portuguese speaking member have history).

Because I did so, you closed admissions.

If one wished to demonstrate how bad an idea it is to have a person solely in charge of admissions, then what a success. If one wanted to try to rescue this board from it's current stagnant lack of growth, then what a failure. By neglecting to forward an email, you have obstructed the access of several good, intelligent and articulate people. I think you have made a mistake.

Honestly, though. I had no idea you felt I was an actual 'living nightmare'. I didn't imagine that (which I have not repeated) would be impacting upon the access of people I have only met in the last three.

I'm glad to have had this demonstrated.

Shall I tell these people they are barred, because they have had the misfortune to meet me? Or are you done wielding access to this site as a punishment and reward system?
 
 
Char Aina
16:52 / 16.10.08
Did they mention they knew you?

Joking! I kid!


That joke seems less funny now.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:02 / 16.10.08
Because I did so, you closed admissions.


I didn't close admissions, you unbelievable sixth form drama club eejit. Put the onion down. I just lost the head of steam I had built up to crack into the admissions backlog, because some self-important whingemaster had decided to combine the private message with the email addresses of his mates with the private message of JUDEGEMENT, which given your aforementioned use of racist language and cod Patois (de man dem really?) seemed unusually (for a person, if not for Barbelith) absent of self-knowledge.

I've already outlined a number of alternatives to the current system over the course of the last year, in fact. The fact that you are too self-involved to bother to address that in a productive fashion is not my problem.
 
  

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