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Lingua Franca

 
  

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clever sobriquet
23:58 / 11.09.08
I'm largely feral, magic(k)ally speaking, so to the extent that I can communicate with my others, it's in a weird mix semi-spoken English, pictograms from various languages or that I've Frankensteined together, images, and emotional content. In my more intellectual/academic endeavours, I'm obsessive about language, if not actually addicted to semiotics. This disparity used to give me fits, and I would by turns use the one to doubt the validity or meaning of the other. More recently, it's started to seem as a whole; not a systemic whole, but more like a personal whole, or at least the whole of my experience, if that makes sense? I don't mean to suggest a duality or balanced binary, or even to invoke the model of holism (which is implicitly dualistic by contrast), but rather simply descriptive.

I was thinking I'd meandered into threadrot, but it is possible that I've done that as well as served as accidental exemplar of some of the issues discussed above.
 
 
darth daddy
01:15 / 12.09.08
But how much is all that really magic and spiritual, and how much is just social wankery?

This question, to me, is really the heart of it. "Unusual" language and images, ie: Latin, Sanskrit, Hebrew...is in some aspect important, and more valuable than simple translations. I just "feel" that esoteric languages are more efficacious for magickal purposes. For example, the Catholic Church lost something by abandoning Latin.
 
 
EmberLeo
05:12 / 12.09.08
Wheras I tend to think the real power is in the meaning, and that it doesn't matter whether you're using English, Latin, Enochian, or Klingon as long as you really, truly understand the significance of the words you are using.

I put more stock in composition and delivery if I'm doing a public ritual, because engaging with the other participants is really important, and that's what theatrical skills are for. If I'm doing a private ritual, I'm generally concerned with precision, because it matters far more that I mean exactly what I say than that what I say sound pretty. Either way, I want a language I truly understand, which is pretty much English.

--Ember--
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
11:27 / 12.09.08
What about using a language foreign to oneself as a tool for concentration and focus?

If the intent is there, but your mind is wholly concentrated on correctly pronouncing words that are somewhat unfimiliar to you, could that not be used as a meditation trick to get into the proper frame of mind?

That, along with the trend in thought that if it feels magickal and adds atmosphere which may be conductive to the work at hand, may work in some of the same ways a mantra does as long as the intent is still floating around in the back of your mind.

Anybody ever use language in this way?
 
 
EmberLeo
20:09 / 12.09.08
Occasionally, yes, though if it's sufficiently foreign it may as well not be language at all so much as tones, and I find focusing on producing a pure tone with the proper open throat and pitch and all to be more fulfilling.

I know others who use language as you describe though, and it seems to be very effective for them.

I mean, there is a degree to which Language is simply another category in the list of potential input types, where input types in general can be used in certain ways as cues to put us in certain frames of mind. To that end the meaning doesn't matter so much as the meta-associations.

I'm also very fond of sound mechanisms that are a different layer of meta to everyday language - meter and rhyme and such.

--Ember--
 
 
EvskiG
21:58 / 12.09.08
Abramelin had some thoughts on the subject:

I further approve of thy possessing a Bible in the vulgar language, and also the Psalms of David, for thine own use. Some person may here reply, "I understand the Latin, and I have no need of the common language". I answer him that when we pray we ought not in any way to embarrass the mind by having to interpret the Psalms; for at such a moment we should be as much united as possible to God; and even the Psalms being in the vulgar tongue when one readeth them they imprint themselves better on the memory; and this is the true manner of particular prayer, if the person praying be illiterate, for in saying the Psalms in Latin he would not know what he was asking of God.

On the other hand, there's quite a tradition of using Barbarous Names that "exalt[] the mind from the vulgar world through a release from rational, discursive thought" and serve as "a mechanism for provoking ecstatic consciousness."

Personally, I like to understand what I'm saying. And modern, colloquial language. No "thee"s or "thy"s for me.
 
 
darth daddy
22:12 / 12.09.08
Language, for me, is in itself a magickal act. Ev, I think the "thees" and "thous", while perhaps precious in a modern time, are somewhat effective in evocation of the spirit of the Old Testament. Even Wittgenstein used Latin with "Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus"....doesn't this sound like Crowley in an attempt to pump up the importance of his work.
 
 
EmberLeo
00:13 / 13.09.08
Ev - Heh, oddly enough I'm sufficiently comfortable with Elizabethan English for various reasons that it registers as a different mode rather than a different language.

But I still wouldn't write in it unless I was doing so for dramatic effect - outside of the usefulness of appropriate drama I don't see much magical use for Thee's and Thou's.

--Ember--
 
 
EvskiG
02:16 / 13.09.08
I think the "thees" and "thous", while perhaps precious in a modern time, are somewhat effective in evocation of the spirit of the Old Testament.

Agreed -- IF the King James Version of the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible, or that sort of quasi-Early Modern English, has positive resonance for you.

Of course, it might not.
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
03:27 / 13.09.08
Even Wittgenstein used Latin with "Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus"....doesn't this sound like Crowley in an attempt to pump up the importance of his work.

Not really, no. Wittgenstein actually called the book (which was, of course, originally written in German) Logisch-Philosophiche Abhandlung. As I understand it, there was then a fair amount of discussion about what the English translation should be called, since everyone thought that 'Logico-Philosophical Treatise' sounded a bit clunky in English. Russell wanted to call it 'Philosophical Logic', and G.E Moore suggested 'Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus', as a kind of play on Spinoza's 'Tracatus Theologico-Politicus'. Wittgenstein made the final decision, on the grounds that:

although Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus isn't ideal still it has something like the right meaning , whereas 'Philosophic logic' is wrong. In fact, I don't know what it means! There is no such thing as philosophic logic.

Wittgenstein really didn't care about using Latin to 'pump up' his work - if he had, he would have used the Latin for the German version, too. You have to remember that he was genuinely convinced that it was the most important work of philosophy ever written, despite the trouble he had getting it published and the fact he thought that there was almost no-one alive who was capable of understanding it.
 
 
darth daddy
02:13 / 14.09.08
although Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus isn't ideal still it has something like the right meaning

Because it sounds cool and important. Book of Logical Philosophy does not. Why Latin? I'm a sucker for all books using imperative language and unusual terminology, especially if written in the style of the Bible, ie: Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt breath in such and such way...Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law...

Nietzche did the same this in "Thus spake Zarathustra"...Plato could have simply enumerated philosophical conclusions rather than his attenuated dialogues.... Would William Blake be the same without the poetry and pictures? Of course not.

All I'm advocating is that style and evocation of prior "holy" books is in some way very important, as is imitation of such style in rituals.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:05 / 14.09.08
Also sprach Zarathustra was not called "Thus Spake Zarathustra". The author never called it that, not least because it was not translated into English until after the author was dead. Not only that, but the most often-used translations - Kaufmann and Hollingdale - translated it as "Thus Spoke Zarathustra"."Thus Spake Zarathustra" was the name of the Common translation, which was heavily criticised by later translators for rendering Nietzsche's text inappropriately flowery.

Are you having trouble with the idea that other languages exist for any reason other than sounding impressive? That is, do you believe that everyone thinks and writes in 21st Century English and then translates bits and pieces into other languages for aesthetic effect?
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
00:53 / 15.09.08
Thanks Haus, I was having trouble working up the energy to say that. I have to say, though, that I actually quite like the thought of G.E. Moore sitting there trying to think of ways to make Wittgenstein sound 'cooler'.
 
 
darth daddy
01:11 / 15.09.08
Come on...Obviously I'm coming from an English speaking perspective...The flowery language helps..."A spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down, the medicine go down!" From an editorially point of view, titling philosophical works with Latin or Old English titles sexes things up.
 
 
EmberLeo
01:55 / 15.09.08
Perhaps so - but if that was not intentional, perhaps it's more in the way than not? I mean, much of the work being cited is stuff originally intended to be in whatever was plain language to the author. It only seems exotic or larger-than-life or whatever because it's out of context.

If that out-of-context-ness has a side effect of adding implications that were not part of the original work, then something has been lost in the translation - that something was gained that should not have been.

--Ember--
 
 
Quantum
10:12 / 16.09.08
Weeellll, translation is a tricky business. Take the I-Ching, my preferred version is the Richard Wilhelm translation (he was a friend of Jung's and also translated the Secret of the Golden Flower), which is westernised and flowery by many accounts. It is also German, as he translated it into his own tongue, so the English I-Ching I read is two steps away from the original Chinese, yet I find it evocative and powerful and I don't think it has *lost* something but ratehr gained an accessibility and cultural relevance to me that the 易 (yì) 經 (jīng) doesn't have because I am not from China.
 
 
HCE
14:52 / 16.09.08
Would William Blake be the same without the poetry and pictures? Of course not.

This is completely baffling. William Blake put substantial effort into bringing the various elements of his work together to produce a specific effect. The poetry and art aren't something added to the work, they are the work. That is precisely the opposite of a translator adding in a tone that wasn't there in the first place.

My own experience of translation has been that it's incredibly difficult to translate even your own work, in fact perhaps especially your own work. So how important are fidelity and authenticity to something like the I Ching? Can you just make up your own meanings?
 
 
Proinsias
16:06 / 16.09.08
Weeellll, translation is a tricky business. Take the I-Ching, my preferred version is the Richard Wilhelm translation (he was a friend of Jung's and also translated the Secret of the Golden Flower), which is westernised and flowery by many accounts. It is also German, as he translated it into his own tongue, so the English I-Ching I read is two steps away from the original Chinese, yet I find it evocative and powerful and I don't think it has *lost* something but ratehr gained an accessibility and cultural relevance to me that the 易 (yì) 經 (jīng) doesn't have because I am not from China.

Would it not be fair to say that in translation a work has both gained and lost something, it seems a little odd to ascribe just gain and no loss. I do get the feeling that I could gain plenty more from dedicating a lot of time to studying the original text and the language it is written in than I could from just sticking with the Wilhelm translation. Translation, to me, means a work has gained easier access but the more time I take to understand the original, and the environment in which it was produced, the more I am likely to get from the text.

I think what I'm trying to saying is that doing the work yourself is likely to be the most fruitful whilst using previous attempts as guides but in times where I'm unlikely to have the time to give up a decent translation which resonates is probably the best. Do ardent fans of Homer not say that it's true beauty can only really be understood with a thorough understanding of the original language and environment, personally the flowery translations of the hollywood movies have been the ones which have resonated with myself the most - maybe one day I'll get a little closer to the original.
 
 
Quantum
16:20 / 16.09.08
Here's a parallel. My English edition of Monkey by Wu Cheng'en is the Arthur Waley translation, and it's great- "There was a rock that since the creation of the world had been worked upon by the pure essences of Heaven and the fine savours..."
It's abridged (only 30 out of the 100 chapters) but still a better translation than I am ever going to write myself.

Do I have to learn Russian to read Chekhov? Or French to read Proust? Should everyone in the world learn English to read Harry Potter?
I think a good translator brings themself to the work and does influence it, but that's OK- no matter how hard I try I'm unlikely to learn Chinese well enough to translate a text into English or appreciate it in the original.
And if I did, I'd then have sacrificed the opportunity to learn French or German or Greek... there is only so much original work you can do, only so many languages you can learn, so why not trust someone else to learn the language and tell you what the meaning is?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:47 / 16.09.08
That's not what anyone has asked, however. I think the misunderstanding is that when you said:

It is also German, as he translated it into his own tongue, so the English I-Ching I read is two steps away from the original Chinese, yet I find it evocative and powerful and I don't think it has *lost* something but ratehr gained an accessibility and cultural relevance to me that the 易 (yì) 經 (jīng) doesn't have because I am not from China.

You didn't actually mean "because I am not from China" but "because I don't speak Chinese". Translating the I Ching doesn't mean it loses anything for you, because the only other other option would not be comprehensible to you. So, in having a version of the I Ching, a translation, that is in a language you speak, you gain the ability to read something at least resembling the I Ching in some particular.

However, that is not the same as the claim that a translation of the I Ching has not lost anything in translation - which is a claim that you and I cannot make, because we can't read it in Chinese. To look at your other example, clearly something is lost in Waley's translation - 70% of the original is lost, for starters - but you still get more out of it that all 100% of it dumped in your lap written in a language you don't speak. So, you have not only lost nothing by the bok being translated, you have gained the ability to read and (in good faith) understand at least what happens in the narrative of 30% of the work. You can't necessarily say "this is a good (meaning accurate) translation" - although you can say "this is a good (meaning enjoyable) translation (of a book that would be harder to enjoy in a language I don't speak") - but you can say "this is a good book" or "this is an enjoyable translation for me", or "I feel like I'm getting the spirit of the original" (whether or not that feeling is correct).

There's a difference between the two ideas of "lost", though.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
16:57 / 16.09.08
No matter what, something - usually cultural, will be lost in translation.

Even if the translation is spot on, the reader will lose some of the significance of the work I think. For (a loose)example, a book that is translated from Japanese which speaks of the concepts of honour or shame would not be grasped as completely by a non-Japanese, most likely.

Something that may be a cultural "given" may be completeley overlooked by someone outside of that culture unless the translator provides lengthy notes and explanations on the text. Even then the concepts are not so thoroughly ingrained into a foreigners psyche as it would be to the native reader. It's a matter of nuance.

Makes you wonder about the Bible, which went through translations of ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, etc... and several cultural divides before it made it into modern English. How much nuance has been lost?
 
 
EvskiG
19:42 / 16.09.08
Makes you wonder about the Bible . . . . How much nuance has been lost?

This would be funny if it weren't so sad.

Ask the Septuagint translators who rendered almah (עלמה, young woman) in Isaiah 7:14 as parthenos (παρθένος, virgin).
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
19:50 / 16.09.08
It is sad how translations messed up the world so much: It was a point of illustration.

I've read that the tongue is generally the strongest muscle in the body. Of course the word Language is based on the root of the french word for tongue (Langue), as in "Mother Tongue". Powerful indeed...

Just food for thought...
 
 
EmberLeo
19:58 / 16.09.08
Though none of these are quite what I meant, actually.

The point was brought up that basically foreign or unusual language sounds more important simply because it's different. My point was that this adds emphasis - and perhaps pretension - that was not present in the original text, and thus something was inappropriately gained in the translation. I'm not sure if I made that clear? (I'm not sure I've made it clear now, for that matter.)

--Ember--
 
 
EvskiG
20:10 / 16.09.08
I think you made it clear, and I think it's an important point.
 
 
darth daddy
23:48 / 16.09.08
This is completely baffling. William Blake put substantial effort into bringing the various elements of his work together to produce a specific effect. The poetry and art aren't something added to the work, they are the work.

You completely missed my point. William Blake's work "evokes" the tenor and tone of the bromides of the Old Testament, but to completely subversive effect. "Prudence is a rich, ugly, old maid courted by incapacity. " The artwork "evokes" the history of great religious paintings, and, to my crude mind, the future of comic book illustrations. "Barbelith!!!"

The artistic effect of Blake's work and Nietzche's work in "Zarathustra" is the liberating effect of transmuting the style of esteemed religious works.
 
 
Quantum
14:38 / 17.09.08
So Blake is like Old Testament satire?

Haus-
You didn't actually mean "because I am not from China" but "because I don't speak Chinese". Translating the I Ching doesn't mean it loses anything for you, because the only other other option would not be comprehensible to you. So, in having a version of the I Ching, a translation, that is in a language you speak, you gain the ability to read something at least resembling the I Ching in some particular.

Actually I *did* mean "because I am not from China", implying that many of the assumed cultural references would be incomprehensible to me. Part of a translator's remit is to try and make the concepts comprehensible to the audience (which is one reason humour is so difficult to translate) beyond just the literal switching of words from one language to another.
You're correct that even a bad translation is more useful to me than something I can't read, but I was really commenting on a 'good' translation capturing the most important stuff to me. AFAIK the bits that were excised from Monkey were from the middle episodes and less pertinent than the beginning and end, like any long story (especially on TV...). The translator learns not only the words and grammar but also the cultural milieu it emerges from, and in the same way can translate concepts so they are understandable to ferengi like me. For example Chi or Karma are rough translations of words that are embedded in a culture, and need explaining to foreigners who have learned a different language in a different cultural context.


The reason I'm banging on about the translation issue is because I'm slowly getting around to relating it to my practice (we like that in the Temple). I read Tarot, and what I do is translate the symbols on the cards into language a layman can understand. You don't often encounter concepts like a-visual-representation-of-the-distress-associated-with-sudden-change-slanted toward-involuntary-breaking-of-unhealthy-habits in day to day life, so it's my job to interpret or phrase that in familiar terms the querent will understand.

To me Tarot is a language of symbols I have been trained to understand, and I think my emphasis due to my personality slants my reading in the same way as differing translators slant their version of a text. Just as I may choose to emphasise the positive nature of the Tower, Wilhelm may choose one English word over another for poetic reasons.
 
 
Quantum
14:40 / 17.09.08
More simply- compare a translation by a person to a translation by Babelfish.com, it's not just about the words.
 
 
Proinsias
23:03 / 17.09.08
Do I have to learn Russian to read Chekhov? Or French to read Proust? Should everyone in the world learn English to read Harry Potter?

Not at all.

If I take something a little more concise than the I Ching, say the first verse of the tao te ching, then I'm likely to have a preferred translation. That translation can become far more useful to me if I then read some other translations and also have a look into the nature of the original characters - I then have begun to build up my own version of the verse and even if I use my favorite for reference I'm still pulling on all the other info I've gathered when I read it.

I wouldn't expect someone to learn english to read Harry Potter but if someone is going to start using Harry Potter as a magical tool, which conveniently of sums up my thoughts on Harry, then it might be useful for them to have some understanding of where their translation differs from the original J.K Rowling work and perhaps even an idea of the environment Rowling wrote in if their culture is rather removed in time or space from it.

I read Tarot, and what I do is translate the symbols on the cards into language a layman can understand.

But if a layman wants to gain a better understanding of the tarot then a look into it's history and context is surely better than just running with your tailored solution alone.

More simply- compare a translation by a person to a translation by Babelfish.com, it's not just about the words.

It's not just about the words but they can help. A flowery poetic translation can be useful but it can also be useful to see alongside a word for word translation to gain a better understanding of where the translator was going.

To attempt to relate this to something personal I'll have to call in my tea addiction. There is a type of tea that is often sold as 'Iron Goddess of Mercy' now this is a rather nice name and one I like. I could stick with that. Or I could find out that this iron goddess of mercy is Kuan Yin and that the iron comes about from an iron statue of Kuan Yin which which appeared to a farmer in a dream and told him to go outside and nourish his new gift which tuned out be a new kind of tea. The tea was then tightly rolled and the packets although appearing small were 'as heavy as the iron statue of Kuan Yin'. I can now come back to the original name and appreciate it much more.

I've just read a post on another forum questioning the knowledge of tea vendor who follows a teamaster religiously, the post in it's entirety was: "Beware the man of one book".
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
02:12 / 18.09.08
Actually I *did* mean "because I am not from China

The idea that the I Ching would have an automatic 'cultural relevance' to someone from China seems rather problematic to me. I'm sure you know this - and I don't mean to be patronising - but China is a very large and culturally (and linguistically)heterogeneous place. I don't really understand why someone living in, for example, modern Harbin would necessarily feel any kind of cultural affinity with a collection of aphorisms from the Western Zhou.

The idea that this 'cultural relevance' has any relation to language is just as problematic. My hypothetical citizen of Harbin would at least speak Mandarin (albeit, in that case, a dialect of Mandarin heavily influenced by Russian and probably not totally intelligible to someone from Beijing), which I suspect is the language that you and Haus are thinking of when you say 'Chinese'. However, millions of people in China do not speak Mandarin, or only speak it as a second language - there are loads of different Chinese languages. Written Chinese is, admittedly, more standardised, but there are still significant differences between, for instance, written Cantonese and written Mandarin, even ignoring the fact that the first still uses traditional characters while mainland China has adopted a standardised form.

And, of course, any modern version of the I Ching, in any language, is basically a translation, as written Chinese has changed over the last couple of thousand years. The oldest known copy of the I Ching is actually part of the Mawangdui silk texts, which are all written in a very strange style with lots of partial characters.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
07:54 / 18.09.08
If I take something a little more concise than the I Ching, say the first verse of the tao te ching, then I'm likely to have a preferred translation. That translation can become far more useful to me if I then read some other translations and also have a look into the nature of the original characters - I then have begun to build up my own version of the verse and even if I use my favorite for reference I'm still pulling on all the other info I've gathered when I read it.

That's a very good point, Proinsias. One of the core texts of my current practice is the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali - of which I have four different translations. I tend to favour the translation by Georg Feuerstein, not because his translation is necessarily 'better' than the others, but because he gives the original sanskrit for each verse and then breaks it down to demonstrate how he arrives at his rendering of the text. I think its important to note that translations are rarely either "value-free" or "objective". This is certainly the case with many texts translated from Sanskrit. Patanjali's YS has, in the main, been translated by people who interpret the sutras within a dualist framework (either familiar "western" dualism or the Indian Samkhya school) - a notable exception being Ian Whicher, whose translation (& commentry) of the YS breaks away from mainstream presentations of Patanjali and offers instead a nondual perspective.

Exactly how a particular aphorism in the YS is translated can significantly affect a person's approach to practice. For example, Patanjali's capsule definition of Yoga - yogash citta-vritti-nirodhah is often rendered as "Yoga is the supression of the modifications of the mind" (italics mine) which has given rise to a common 'reading' of this statement that yoga practitioners need to actively suppress all thoughts. Instead, Ian Whicher renders this aphorism as: "Yoga is the cessation of [the misidentification with] the modifications of the mind" - which gives a whole different spin on the matter - that Yoga practice attempts not so much to empty the mind of thought or supress the mental fluctuations (i.e. "citta-vritti") but to cease to identify with those mental modifications. The key difference here, is in the interpretation of "nirodha" as "cessation" rather than "supression" - words which have far different connotations for english-speaking readers.

thoughts?
 
 
Quantum
11:16 / 18.09.08
Proinsias, Trouser - both those posts are resonating with me, I quite agree. Of course referring to multiple sources will give you a better understanding of the text, in translation as in any field. I'm particularly interested in situations where most versions share a phrase but a minority differ, just as in Trouser's example, because it often shows either a common conception that the translators share due to similar views, or (more often) many people cribbing from the same source... Yet another situation where academic training or research skills in general definitely help with the occult.

Museum- point taken, China is vast and varied, but even someone from Harbin is going to have an easier time reading the book than someone from Brighton. To switch to a less problematic example, how about Jorge Luis Borges? An Argentinian will find it more accessible (or any Spanish speaker I suppose) than I will.
I'm pondering on Rumi now actually, and other works separated from us by gulfs of time, that aren't going to be directly accessible to anyone alive. Hmmm.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
11:55 / 18.09.08
...even someone from Harbin is going to have an easier time reading the book than someone from Brighton.

Why, though, Quants, should this be the case?

I've recently spent some time hanging out with some Indian IT chaps (an oracle development team) and one morning, one of them strolled up to my workstation and picked up my copy of the Yoga Sutras. Conversation ensued along the lines of:

oracle chap: "what's this then?"
me: "It's a classic text of yoga"
oc: (flicking through it) "it doesn't make any sense to me." (pause) Where are the pictures? What's this? (points to Sanskrit text)
me: Err, its Sanskrit.
oc: (somewhat dismissively) Oh. I go to a gym, myself
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
12:35 / 18.09.08
Quantum - well, Borges is an interesting example, for a couple of reasons. One is that he wrote quite a bit about translation himself, and believed that there were some things it was only possible to do in some languages - not for 'cultural' reasons, but simply because different languages work in very different ways, in terms of both sound and grammar. From an interview reprinted here:

I don't think languages are essentially synonymous. In Spanish it is very difficult to make things flow, because words are over-long. But in English, you have light words. For example, if you saw slowly, quickly, in English, what you hear is the meaningful part of the word: slow-ly, quick-ly. You hear slow and quick ... in English you can do much with verbs and positions. You can write: dream away your life; live up to; something you have to live down. Those things are impossible in Spanish. They cannot be done.

The other reason that Borges is especially interesting for this discussion, of course, is that he could read Old English (and Middle English, and Old Norse). In This Craft of Verse he refers to Old English as his 'hobby'. Now, I was born and raised in Britain ... but do you really think (given that I would need a translation and he wouldn't) that I would be getting hidden depths from, say, The Seafarer that Borges wouldn't?
 
 
Quantum
12:39 / 18.09.08
Because Cantonese is more similar to mandarin than English is to Mandarin (AFAIK).
Really I'm assuming that when growing up in a particular culture, you learn not just the language but a lot of associated ideas. Your Indian colleague had exactly the same reaction to your yoga text as most people I know would, because it's esoteric, not because of the language barrier per se.

To broaden the discussion slightly, a parallel situation could easily have occurred with two people sharing a language but not a particular culture.
For my example I'm going to pick RPGs. If a colleague comes over to my desk and spots a Call of Cthulhu rulebook, they are likely to pick it up, ask a brief question about what the hell it is and then put it down bored. If I tell them about my coprophobic 1920s Investigator being hunted by Shoggoths, I might as well be speaking Hindi because we don't have any shared referents, they aren't conversant in that particular (sub)culture.
 
  

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