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Lingua Franca

 
  

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darth daddy
01:30 / 16.08.08
What are your concepts regarding language? Is "language" an evil to be avoided, a necessary evil, or a keen tool in your tool chest?

I'm of the opinion that careful viewing and manipulation of the internal monologue is a paramount practice. One can view the internal monologue to discern patterns leading to one's future...one can modify the internal monologue to change one's karma....

What is your view about the limitations of language...I'm coming to the belief that the next evolution in consciousness revolves around up grading from language to some new form of thoughtform...probably a visual/tonal medium of expression.
 
 
Mistoffelees
15:27 / 16.08.08
How is language not a visual/tonal medium of expression?
 
 
darth daddy
21:54 / 16.08.08
Language is obviously a visual/tonal medium. Where I am going with this, is to start with the incredible connection between language and religion. The Bible, following Greek philosophy, deals with the "logos". The necessity of language to create shared culture and belief systems is obvious. The problem with language, as I see it, is that people confuse the utility of symbolic representation with reality. The Buddhists recognize this issue, and, in Zen Buddhism etc.. seek to stop the monologue to have a direct connection with reality.

There is a quote somewhere by Crowley regarding the utility of creating a personal grammar for use in the occult. I'm fascinated by his treatment of Gemmatria and Enochian language as a powerful necessity for dealing with entities.

Two points...one...a goal being to use language and the internal monologue in a conscious way, aware of the limitations of language. Second, evolution of language, perhaps in direction of sigils and mantras, to allow for communication which avoids the pitfalls of alphabetic/phonetic systems...
 
 
darth daddy
22:18 / 16.08.08
I'm curious about your opinions about the use of language...is there something uniquely useful in using Hebraic alphabet and words in Kaballah? Is it necessary to use Tibetan alphabet for tantric meditation? Is it necessary to use Enochian to contact Angels? Is it necessary to use Tibetan words on in the hundred syllable vajrasattva meditation?
 
 
Princess
13:40 / 17.08.08
Angels don't need Enochian. Note the people praying with/to the Archangel Michael in earthly languages. Check same for Mssrs. Raphael and Gabriel.

I'm still not sure what your question is. Are you just asking how we use language in our practice?
 
 
Proinsias
14:20 / 17.08.08
Is it necessary to use Tibetan alphabet for tantric meditation? Is it necessary to use Enochian to contact Angels? Is it necessary to use Tibetan words on in the hundred syllable vajrasattva meditation?

Is it necessary to replicate everything exactly from a previously described practice for it to be of practical use? I don't think so. Take bits and leave bits. Language is one of the many bits you can take or leave. Most people, to a greater or lesser extent, will have modified the language they use day to day anyway and the chances of learning Tibetan with the degree of comprehension required for undertaking magical practice may be rather difficult. I'd be wary of penning a poem in anything but English never mind conversing with angels.

I know martial art instructors who insist on using the correct original terms for moves and insist on making the same noises during combat as the forefathers, their art is no more effective than other instructors who are happy to switch between new and old terms as suits.
 
 
EvskiG
15:25 / 17.08.08
is there something uniquely useful in using Hebraic alphabet and words in Kaballah?

Given the Hebrew pronunciation of most magicians, I hope not . . .
 
 
TheCow
20:32 / 17.08.08
Language is pretty central to any practice, especially if you're piecing traditions together, post-modernism style. The resultant force of any particular magical leverage will be stronger if you pick a consistent linguistic frame. Unless you're deliberately playing with linguistic dissonance for...whatever reason.

Strong linguistic certainty is also very important for grounding yourself if you want to be doing anything useful, particularly for other people. If you're dropping into 5th dimensional tet-a-tets with the Abstracted Avatar of Avocado and Anger, it is a lot easier to come off as "not crazy" and more like "insightful" if you can phrase it in terms that people will understand, and it's easier to establish rapport and etc.

It also keeps your practice from becoming pervaded with bullshit - if you say exactly what you mean and phrase what happens in extremely precise terms, you will find that vague "there was a feeling, and then, a SENSATION!" shenanigans will slowly fade away to be replaced with very specific, identifiable magical artifacts that signal either success or failure of whatever it is you're trying to get to work.

some apocrypha: the most awesome psychedelic-magickal revelation I've ever heard of was something posted on these boards a while ago. Some guy - forget his name - who was a UK citizen of regular Santo Daime patronage, went to an all weekend retreat, took the brew, and received an angelic vision of glory, transcendence, you know the drill. The trick was that he apparently came back with full and intuitive knowledge of Portugese. Which, since he didn't know really any of it beforehand, was just strange and wonderful.

I'm afraid I don't know very much about the particulars of Enochian, have to my parents' regret not learned Hebrew, but I did want to become a linguist for the sake of inventing fictional languages. Had to give it up for physics, but it's something in the back of my mind there.

Here's a question - is the International Phonetic Alphabet, as a virtually universal tool of human verbal expression, a step towards an alchemical language? It certainly looks the part, and practicing your glottal stops and fricatives feels like power words.

Language is such a tricky, fluid thing. It evolves counter to anyone's expectations - most likely, it seems it will run into what Morrison termed MemePlexes, or plain old emotional aggregates, sometime soon. Like water, it makes for a shockingly effective prison. Wonder what you can trap in a 3D holographic hieroglyph.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
23:12 / 17.08.08
I think the key to language and magick for me is in proper spelling.
 
 
darth daddy
00:06 / 19.08.08

Take bits and leave bits. Language is one of the many bits you can take or leave.


Wrong!!! It is not the same to use translations as the orignal words...in my humble opinion...

Do the LBRP using the words "God, God, God God" as opposed the the Hebrew...try it.. it sucks... Might as well chant "Duck Duck Duck Goose".

I believe that we are communicating with the collective unconsciousness...contacting Tibetan adepts with English is useless...maybe...

In terms of dealing with future language, the mandalas seem a new way to utilize language. Creating "memory palaces" as seems fit may be a new way to communicate.
 
 
darth daddy
01:09 / 19.08.08
I think the key to language and magick for me is in proper spelling.

Alright..."Lingua Franca"...point taken....
 
 
EvskiG
11:33 / 19.08.08
Do the LBRP using the words "God, God, God God" as opposed the the Hebrew

So what do most magicians who do the LBRP actually know about the god names YHVH, Adonai, Eheyeh, and AGLA?

Should you know, for example, that AGLA is an acronym for "Atah gibur leolam adonai" (and what that means)?

Does it matter that observant Jews generally find any attempt to pronounce YHVH (even sounding out the letters) to be incredibly offensive and sacrilegious?

And does it matter that the LBRP almost certain wasn't created by someone fluent in Hebrew?

Or is it just a matter of using weird foreign words?
 
 
TheCow
13:51 / 19.08.08

I believe that we are communicating with the collective unconsciousness...contacting Tibetan adepts with English is useless...maybe...


Wouldn't the collective unconscious, as a purely human thing, be pre-literate though? Just thinking out loud.

God as a generic term, however, certainly does lack some of the more traditional connotations of YHWH. That's really what specialized language is about - saying the same thing as you would with the vernacular, but without the ambiguity of uncertain connotation.
 
 
Proinsias
23:52 / 19.08.08
Wrong!!! It is not the same to use translations as the orignal words...in my humble opinion...

I agree it's not the same. I don't really practice magic, which may make view somewhat redundant, but I do mill around martial arts and the occult. When reading about ideas in other languages it can take thousands of words for me to appreciate one word or phrase. The word 'god' has a lot of meaning for me as I've grown up with it but YHWH or dao are newish words I'm working on. I suspect words in other languages seem to have so much potential for power because I know so little of them. I'm quite familiar with the term god so its mysterious power is somewhat less than similar words from languages and cultures I know little of.

I'm thinking you don't get as much from chanting god as you do YHWH because the latter is much more mysterious to you.

I personally like a mix and match approach. Using old, new and borrowed terms to influence each other.

If I struggle to convey what I mean in english whilst in work I hate to think what I'd get across to spirits in an ancient language I know very little of.
 
 
darth daddy
23:21 / 20.08.08
Control the language you control the followers. It is fascinating the grip that Scientology gets over its followers...largely in my opinion regarding it usurpation of the concepts..."engram", "subversive person" "clear". Once you buy into these concepts (and allow these concepts into your internal monologue), you are a follower, and to act logically pursuant to these concepts you must follow the religion. Similarly, other religious terms "sin" "salvation" "saint" etc... create a similar word debt leading to culture membership.

I have a theory regarding the necessity of the three jewels in Buddhism...If you truly free yourself of verbal concepts, you risk truly being amoral in a possibly monstrous sense...Therefore connection to dogma and community is a necessary lifeline. Ultimately, you need to let loose of this thread.
 
 
Proinsias
07:50 / 21.08.08
I don't follow this at all. At what point have I bought into a concept? I've been trying to buy into the concept of god for a very long time, the problem is that there is just so much stuff to buy it looks like it is going to take me some time, I'm further down the road of trying all the tea in China.

When you say 'control the language, control the followers' is this not working against the idea often attributed to charismatic leaders in that it is not what they say but how they say it that has the impact on the followers.

you risk truly being amoral in a possibly monstrous sense

no one ever got anywhere without taking a bit of a gamble, you also risk becoming a totally awesome bloke.

Ev: I tend to try and open up the definitions of boring old words I'm already familiar with as opposed to going for the weird foreign ones but it's tough, sometimes they just sound too cool.
 
 
darth daddy
10:34 / 21.08.08
At what point have I bought into a concept?

You have bought into a concept the moment you have accepted the concept as "true". Christians describe this as "accepting Jesus as my savior" which means more than merely words but a changed psychological state. Religious retreats and orders seem to me to be very similar to classic brain washing scenarios, controlling sleep and food, to break down resistant independent thought. Being raised Catholic, the endless repetition of prayers like the rosary are designed to implant these concepts.

I don't mean this in necessarily a negative way.

The use of "strange" words and new concepts allows for a broadening of ones outlook. The historical veracity of the Golden Dawns use of Hebrew and Egyptian symbolism is not as important as the efficacy of these symbols to bring about change, hopefully in an empowering way.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
11:52 / 21.08.08
You can also look at language as a magickal construct in and of itself.

There is another thread I remember reading about jar magick. Indeed, when a portable vessel for carrying water was first conceived, it surely was considered magickal for those who couldn't wrap their heads around the idea. It was a new, non-elemental magick different from things like fire, wood or water: It was a magick capable of "controlling" the elements.

I think that language is magickal in and of itself because it becomes a vessel which carries our thoughts and allows them to be stored and carried and handed out to be shared with others. Thought of in this way, our thoughts and insights are elemental and manifest (Like water) and language is like a jar.

Just as martial arts and similar are exercises developed to perfect our bodies (Which can also be seen as vessels), the grasp of and attempt to perfect our linguistic skills can also be key in our magickal practices.

If a magickians purpose is an attempt to perfect the self, and if we bind and define the world with language, then it seems reasonable that a perfect command of one's language is important in attaining this goal. The more perfectly we can express ourselves, the more impeccable we should become.

Perhaps the goal is to one day go beyond language, but I don't think we can go beyond without going through, first. The study of one's language is a study of the world and our place in it.
 
 
Proinsias
23:23 / 21.08.08
darth daddy:

I see what you mean about buying into concepts, or words, now. I think I'm okay as short of omniscience I'm unlikely to state my definition of anything as true.

Lui qui s'approche: I think this is why I have trouble using words outside of the english language as I'm still learning the extended meanings of words I've been using all my like never mind using words I know next to nothing about. The more I read the less confidence I have in using words like dao, karma, dahrma etc in conversation.
 
 
Proinsias
23:54 / 21.08.08
It appears I can't even spell them, never mind use them.
 
 
TheCow
02:23 / 28.08.08
Read it while it's up: lexicologist debunks notion of real words, feeds my yen for neologisms.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/08/03/chillax/

"In short, if it seems wordish, use it. No apologies necessary."

seems very chaotic, this language business
 
 
EmberLeo
10:08 / 28.08.08
Ah, see, that's closer to my relationship with language. Thank you for the link.

--Ember--
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
11:56 / 28.08.08
if we bind and define the world with language, then it seems reasonable that a perfect command of one's language is important in attaining this goal.

I'll add that the above statement would a good starting point: bending language to one's will would seem to be a logical progression. I get too caught up in being "proper".

The Boston article reminded me of Gysin, Burroughs and P'Orridge... Sometimes I forget that I need to get my head out of my ass to breath a bit... I get way too uptight about language: When someone say's "Funner", I tend to cringe and make judgements.

It's a hell of an effort to break conditioning, and language is one of the strictest conditioning agents there is. In many cases working to make a living ties you in to the rules of language and it's easy to forget that language is meant to be a tool, not one's master.

That's it, I have a new goal: Spend 5 minutes a day playing here to try break away from being such a stickler...
 
 
Quantum
16:16 / 28.08.08
Why has nobody mentioned grimoires yet?

The word grimoire is from the Old French grammaire, and is from the Greek root "grammatikos", “relating to letters”, from which grammar, a system for language, and glamour, influential appeal, are derived. In the mid-late Middle Ages, Latin "grammars" (books on Latin syntax and diction) were foundational to school and university education, as controlled by the Church—while to the illiterate majority, non-ecclesiastical books were suspect as magic, or believed to be endowed with supernatural influence.[citation needed] The word "grimoire" came over time to apply specifically to those books which did indeed deal with magic and the supernatural.

Similar magical writings have existed from antiquity, and although these are not in the same genre of medieval magic, they are sometimes described as grimoires.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
16:57 / 28.08.08
The thinking that Magic is Science which isn't quite understood yet would lend to the Grimoire argument...

2nd degree masonry encourages the mason to "explore the mysteries of science and nature". The study of Pythagorean geometry is particularly encouraged.

The fact that the church tried to keep a very tight monopoly on all knowledge sheds some insight into traditional western magic: Those who had encounters with eastern thinking and Islam in particular (which encouraged scientific thought) were surely blown away by the sheer volume of knowledge that was kept from them. They learned secrets which certainly were "occulted" from them by the church and when they returned to Europe they had to hide their newfound learning and pass it along orally lest they be branded heretics...

The advancements in science and technology would be embraced as magical in the eyes of someone ignorant to such things and legends would spring from them. Imagine what the medieval account of a modern weapon would be...

Written language, especially outside of the Church, must have been seen as magical to an illiterate in this way...
 
 
Quantum
08:01 / 29.08.08
I think language is vitally important for bazillions of reasons. Certainly in my practice it's the most important thing, and I feel quite strongly that the casual decision to make it up as you go along is a dreadful mistake.

More to follow...
 
 
Quantum
15:46 / 05.09.08
Right. I'm not sure where to start so I'm going to jump in with the importance of knowing about language. The more you know about something, the better you understand it ('knowledge is power') and language is in some ways the sea in which we swim.

So, for example lets take the thread title, Lingua Franca is from the Italian 'Frankish Language' and basically means French. Ironically, the Lingua Franca of the world is now English which galls the Gauls no end (see my Gallic pun there?) and so everyone speaks English and calls it French without realising.

Now, you can use the expression Lingua Franca without knowing all that, just like you can drive a car without knowing how an engine works, but if there's misunderstanding, if the car breaks down, in order to fix it you need a deeper understanding of how it works. If language is important in magic (and I think it is, cf. abracadabra, spell, grimoire, all of Alan Moore's work, magic that rhymes etc. etc.) then having a good understanding of it must help, surely?
 
 
Quantum
16:00 / 05.09.08
...and regarding that article on chillax, firstly I *hate* that word it makes anyone sound like a dick, secondly here's Wittgenstein refuting any private language and thirdly the day I start taking linguistics lessons from the Boston Globe you can take me behind the woodshed and shoot me.

To be fair, I can understand that people have issues with the restrictions of language and feel that the hegemony of pedants criticising one's spelling is something to escape. But contrary to that, shouldn't we aspire to be better at something rather than just excuse our mistakes? Is study of English (or whatever language) a waste of time, a futile discipline pursued by dilettantes?
 
 
EmberLeo
22:03 / 05.09.08
Quantum: On the one hand, you'll note that my spelling and grammar are pretty good by academic standards. On the other hand, I firmly believe in making up new words, and that if I got my point across, it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do. But I think context matters. Not learning how to spell because you can't be bothered isn't really at all the same as learning a great deal about the roots of different types of words that lead to different kinds of spelling, and then playing with it.

So I guess it's a question of avoiding the rules because you can't be arsed to follow them vs. breaking the rules because you understand them well enough to know why breaking them is interesting.

--Ember--
 
 
Quantum
09:18 / 08.09.08
Absolutely, just as Picasso learnt to paint realistically and *then* developed cubism.
 
 
Proinsias
22:42 / 10.09.08
Playing with things as you learn about them is part of the process of learning. It would be ideal if every new word was invented by someone with a complete understanding of language but that is unlikely to happen. I believe making it up as you go along should go hand in hand with learning the rules. If I needed to learn everything about the English language before making modifications I'd have no time to chillax.

I don't practice magic but I've been trying to play country songs on the guitar for the past few months and the songs never seem right until I've substituted a bit of Glasgow slang into the lyrics. Making things your own is a big part of understanding them.

I wouldn't be keen to say something to the world in a language I didn't understand enough to make my own personal modifications to
 
 
EmberLeo
10:18 / 11.09.08
I think verbal fluency qualifies as enough proficiency to be making up new words verbally - and if I didn't, it wouldn't matter because people do it all the time anyway. It's called slang, eh?

Similarly, I don't think you have to be a professional linguist just to have good spelling, but I also think there's a difference between playing with spelling and ignoring spelling. My little brother is (or was - he's getting better) a distressingly typical example of the difference between changing spelling because it means something significant v.s. having crappy spelling and calling it a style.

That said, all of this stuff is a heck of a lot more interesting the more you do know about linguistics.

--Ember--
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:53 / 11.09.08
Not learning how to spell because you can't be bothered isn't really at all the same as learning a great deal about the roots of different types of words that lead to different kinds of spelling, and then playing with them.

FTFY. S. Couldn't R.

More seriously, although still not talking about the majicks, I have had a think about why the "Picasso learned to paint realistically first" argument has been itching me, and have come to the following conclusions.

1) Picasso dropped out of art school. This is a slightly cheeky objection, since he had learnt naturalistic art at his father's knee, but nonetheless, why not go for someone like Giorgio de Chirico, who actually graduated?

2) There's a rather Dungeons and Dragons feel about this model - that you complete the level of realistic painting and then "level up" to become the mature Picasso. The person painting portraits with eyes on either side of the nose is not still collecting XP to get the ability to paint both eyes on the same side of the nose. They are painting in their own way. Very few painters are interested or able to create paintings that aim to be or are indistinguishable from the object being painted, and those who can tend to operate in the very small field of trompe-l'œil.

3) The representation of cubism coming entirely from Picasso - that once he had mastered the art of painting conventionally realistic images he then conceived cubism entirely from his European brain. This is understandable, and follows the narrative of the grand artist, but it neglects the enormous contribution of African art and the growing influence on his style (which is interesting in itself, of course, since the African artists in question would not necessarily have seen his earlier work or their own as more or less realistic, but rather as two different kinds of depiction). Of course, there are plenty of ways in which one might feel the relationship between Picasso and his influences may have been unequal or exploitative, but to remove Africa from the picture totally seems an insular move.

4) Having said which, and despite all that fishcakes about the artist as event within a continuum, this is still bloody Picasso we're talking about. He's the most bankable artist of the twentieth century and arguably the greatest, apart from Grant Morrison, obvs. It is unlikely that Picasso is going to be a good guide even to how one should go about painting, because he is Picasso.
 
 
darth daddy
17:54 / 11.09.08
When I started this thread, I accidentally titled it "Linga Franca", loosely translated means "French Dick". Don't knock misspellings for humor aspects.

While I've lost too many brain cells over the years to attempt to recreate my prior knowledge of Wittgenstein, one quote I remember is "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent". Essentially, what I understood is that amorphous terms such as "God" and "Faith" cannot be discussed rationally as there is not a direct referent. This does not mean "God" and "Faith" do not exist, it is simply impossible to discuss this rationally via language.

On this forum we run into this problem repeatedly regarding subjective experiences with the divine. Our only tool, especially online, is to use language, and with such limitations in language to fully express "crystal mystic revelations". Hence numerous nonsensical arguments, ie: "Otherkin"...I'm a vampire, no you're not....

Again, I fully don't understand the argument Wittgenstein uses regarding private languages, but I feel that sigils and other symbols created by practitioners in their practices do constitute private languages with have great utility to the practitioner, although may not serve a purpose of communicating with others.
 
 
EmberLeo
19:45 / 11.09.08
Well, maybe this is a back-on-topic example:

I'm Heathen which means I'm a Germanic/Scandinavian Reconstructionist Pagan. I practice Seidh which is a form of magic that involves receptivity and altered consciousness as best as we can tell - that is, Scandinavian Shamanistic Magic of a sort. I wouldn't go so far as to call myself a Shaman.

Now, a lot of this language stuff is more about politics than magic - why call myself Heathen instead of Northern Trad? Why call or not call myself a Shaman? Why say "Shamanistic Magic" instead of "Shamanism"? Those are all things I do or don't do for social reasons.

But what I call Seidh? Well, now that's an interesting question.

Amongst the humans I know, "Seidh" refers specifically to a particular kind of magic in a particular cultural context. The same or similar practices in other cultures aren't "Seidh" to the humans. When I have communicated with the gods on this subject - especially Freya - it seems They consider the techniques that define what we call "Seidh" to be not particularly culturally dependent, and sure different cultures use different words for it, but you don't have to call water Agua just because it was bottled in Spain, do you?

This comes up in other places in Heathenry - when should good reconstructionists try to insert some Old Icelandic into their rituals? Shouldn't the people use the language they actually speak fluently to commune, we wouldn't want to be *gasp* Catholic or anything, right? Do the gods really speak all languages fluently, or must I learn Their language to truly understand Them? And what the heck do "Blot" and "Ergi" and "Gothi" and "Gythia" really mean?

But how much is all that really magic and spiritual, and how much is just social wankery? It's often telling what denomination of Christian one was raised before one became Heathen (when applicable, obviously) because our fundamental assertions about what religion should or shouldn't be carries over.

--Ember--
 
  

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