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Let's talk about file sharing and the music industry

 
  

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Char Aina
15:52 / 04.08.08
Thanks for that Mr Snake. Sorry for my misunderstanding.

On free information, I was doing some reading on another topic and found an article by Richard T. Kaser, the Executive Director of the "National Federation of Abstracting & Information Services". In that article - "If Information Wants to Be Free . . . Then Who's Going to Pay for It?" - he says:


[T]here's one expression floating around the Internet that seems to have come into popular usage quite fast, and it is increasingly being cited as if it were not only intuitively obvious (and therefore true), but a divine revelation (and therefore True, with a capital T).
The expression, of course is, "Information wants to be free." But what, exactly, does that mean? I've detected at least three meanings:
- 1. Speaking at a recent meeting in Washington, D.C., CNRI's Robert Kahn observed, "One view is information should be free of standard organization," i.e., it should be free from conventional structure.
- 2. In a recent statement to the U.S. Copyright Office, U.S. citizen B. Ball said, "I resent any abridging of my rights to do what I please with any multimedia or electronic content I have purchased." Therefore, another view is information wants to be free of unnecessary controls.
- 3. People are always saying to me things like, "Well, do you think anyone should actually own the human genome?" Or, "Should foreign governments not share their climate data with us?" Or, "Should people have to pay to read the results of research funded by the U.S. Government?" In other words, what people are always saying to me is, "Don't you think information ought to be free of charge?"



His 'five assertions' later in the are also relevant. Among other ideas,he believes free information is an illusion built by culture, and also suggests that absolutely free information could be the siren that leads us to our death.


He goes on to support the point made by some that the medium is the thing:

...the notion that information ought to be free is ingrained in our culture. I would even go so far as to say that you as individuals also believe this. And I'm going to prove it to you.
When you go to the library, you expect to check out a book for free. When you turn on your radio, you expect to listen to music for free. When you turn on your TV you expect to watch network programming for free. You, like everyone else, have come to believe that information is free.

Still, there's a double standard. If you want to personally own a copy of that book you checked out of the library, you are willing to pay for a copy. If you want to personally own a copy of that song you heard on the radio, you are willing to pay for the CD. If you want to personally own a copy of the movie you just watched, you are willing to buy the video.

I conclude from this that, as a society, we pay for the medium and not the message. As a society we perceive that the value resides in the copy, not in the content . . . which is free . . . free to use again and again and again, free to reuse (say, if we want to quote something or lift a fact) . . . and free to give away to a friend or resell once you are done with it. All of this is ingrained in our thinking. It's not new.


...although he suggests this is not fact, but a useful fiction we have all willingly participated in.

On free information, or free-looking information, he says Either the user pays directly or the producer finds some other way to finance the operation, and I think we agree on that. I see models that give away free stuff in order to direct traffic towards some not-so-free stuff as a plausible future.


If information wants to be free, then everybody pays.

That seems the point, rather. We already do pay for free-looking-information to look free, as Kaser points out. Taxes paying for libraries(or in the UK, of course, the license fee paying for programming) are one example of something we are already doing, and could well do more of.

In the TED talk I linked to before, Blackmore talks about the emergence of a new replicator, the teme, a sort of techno-meme. She suggests there is this third replicator, very much like a meme, the difference being that it has escaped our heads and replicates electronically.

I'd recommend reading the article by Kaser, and I'd recommend watching the TED talk by Blackmore. Together they've inspired me to think about this a little differently.

I think there's a drive towards information replicating over and over and more and more easily, and what Blackmore suggests seems to explain that some.

If there is an evolutionary drive towards absolutely free information, could that be, as Kaser suggests, the end for us? Have the parasitic memes given birth to an even less anthropocentric parasite? Could we affect it's growth if it has?

Chief among the memes supporting the temes is the idea that you need to leave a record to have mattered; your books, your albums, your paintings; your place in history. It's a potent replicator for obvious reasons. It's driven people to write things down and record things, eclipsing oral traditions with higher fidelity and as a result, higher fecundity. An oral meme can 'go off', being forgotten if not replicated soon enough. Whole languages die that way, let alone stories. A textual meme, however, can be found again years later. The dead sea scrolls, for example.

If temes continue to run amok(and I don't really see how we have all that much choice) one benefit will be gaining backups of cultural product. Where things used to be lost(a small press of an album, a short lived magazine, etc) now they are almost all backed up on several computers around the world. Comic book scanners have been talking about this for a while. One big team of uploaders refer to their work as Digital Comics Preservation, aware that paper is easily destroyed and that digital can be copied over and over again.

It might be hard to get a copy of an old action comics issue, but you'll be able to read V for Vendetta forever.

(I read an article on this topic recently, but unfortunately I can't find it. Basically it said 'allow copies, last forever, don't allow copies, risk being lost forever'. I'm sure there is some nuance missing in my summary, but that was the gist)

Once again I am not able to give the thread my undivided attention, so please do point out if I am making no sense with this patchwork posting.
 
 
Char Aina
21:53 / 04.08.08
On the other side of the many-copies-so-it-lasts-forever thing, I've just remembered an album Jean-Michel Jarre made back in the 1980s, Music For Supermarkets.

He only made one copy of the album - to be played at an event - and he then auctioned that off for charity and destroyed the masters. Although bootlegs do exist, it's probably the closest to unique an album has ever been.

It was a reaction to mass production, if my memory of the press at the time serves.

I wonder what Jarre makes of filesharing?
 
 
Bandini
14:05 / 05.08.08
So the legend goes that when Daniel Johnston told people about his album 'Hi How Are You' and they wanted a copy he recorded a new album.
He went through a period of not having tape-to-tape recording facilities so found it easier to just record the album again and give it to the person in question.
Only available on tape at the time as well. I can't see that Daniel would have too many issues with you buying the album and then downloading a load of different versions.
He also gives you a free digital download copy if you buy an album on vinyl. Which i think Silver Jews do as well.
Much appreciated by a vinyl nut like myself.
I'm not a fan of buying something twice just because i want to listen in two different ways.
 
 
Char Aina
14:16 / 05.08.08
Do you think the music industry will soon reflect that? or do you think DRM-tastic single use files will become the norm?
How does it affect the value of an album when it's replicated in the way you describe Daniel Johnston doing his?

I reckon it makes it more interesting. It'd suck to get the worst version he made, but I get the feeling it'd be an honest snapshot.

Does that tally with the reality at all? was the album supposed to be any good?
 
 
Bandini
14:57 / 05.08.08
I think the DIY nature of Daniel Johnston's music is very important.
Even if the version sucked he recorded it just for you. Pretty cool, i think. And i personally think if you paid him personally for the album then you are pretty justified in downloading the regular release.
 
 
werwolf
15:41 / 05.08.08
whoa, quite a lot of posts since i last checked. let's see if i manage to add something sensible to all of this.

thanks for the kaser article, Life Critic. didn't know it, but many ideas he expresses within it are actually at the core of the whole 'intellectual property' issue and have been discussed there over and over again. this of course has impact on this new era for music and music distribution.

now, let me get back to my much beleaguered 'service argument' via detour.

on one hand we could argue that 'information' (term as used by kaser) is indeed free and therefore must be made accessible to anyone wishing to tap into it. but even free information has to be generated, in the case of music we can use 'created' instead of 'generated'. leaving aside the cyberpunk notion of artificial intelligence culture (which is very real, but in this day and age too rudimentary to be of consequence for this discussion), we can assume that you'd need a human or a group of humans to create that music information. these individuals will have to invest time and other resources into creating that music information. efforts that somehow will need to be reimbursed if those individuals want to continue living the way our (referring here to all societies based on money and/or exchange of goods) society dictates/recommends it. these individuals might be very altruistic and offer their resources for free, balancing them on their own sheet. in idealistic terms this would make the information free, even if the reality of it shows investments (and in a perfect world some sort of returns for it).

on the other hand we can view this particular type of information as individual expression, therefore an extension of the individual and thus belonging to that individual (or group of individuals). this would play out just as above, with only one main difference: that particular music information belonging to that particular (set of) indivudal(s) empowers him/her/them to determine in what quality and quantity the usage of it has to be disbursed and to whom. this is where imho illegal, or let me rather say unapproved usage of information becomes unethical. my ethical views tell me that i should get approval from whomever the information i want to use belongs to.

so, back to overarching question of the future of it all, considering that there just isn't a realistic way to control the multiplication of information these days, the only sensible way to even make clear that it isn't free and then getting consumers to voluntarily pay for it, is to offer a service that they cannot (or only with great efforts and time investment) substitute themselves. and i don't mean to withhold the content, rather present it and make it accessible in comfortable ways and with all the makings of a full service (accessibility, storage, pricing, professional advise and service, mobility, longevity, et. al.).

DRM's are being abandoned as we speak - sometimes with rather dramatic effects, as was proven by yahoo (and here) and microsoft before that. provider financed models are also being left on the roadside because they a.) just aren't flexible enough and b.) demand too much overhead.

i'm sure i left some things out that i wanted to add, but i can't think of them right now.

and some side notes:
@ Life Critic: yes, i worry about misconceptions, not because i think that majors are holy and all that (i think i made it quite clear what i think of their practices and the riaa and the ifpi), but because them having such clout and being in a position of power, any misconception about them and their business will also reflect on general business practices within the entire music industry, not only when it comes to majors. and about promoters, mark my words, and i will quote myself here: and we are currently becoming witnesses to the event and live business making the same stupid mistakes that the recording industry did before them, because they are still clinging to old business models (and the sums of money that were tied to them).

@ Neon Snake: thanks for encouraging me to continue to participate.

@ Life Critic (2): about the email you posted - the 'real indies' (i agree to only consider non-riaa/-ifpi as independent) are actually hard at work trying to figure out the closes service based model for the new distribution channels, which is a subscription model to their content, can't think of any one now who has successfully managed to do that. the other strategy they employ is to cooperate with specialized partners and use their niche as marketing argument. see beatport or gigacrate or forced exposure or dotshop.

oh, and i just thought about something regarding the 'is music free or isn't it?' argument: you will have to pay the original copyright owner for covering or reenacting their 'information' - a legislated fact that is also being strongly reinforced by many, many artists. of course, there are also many, many artists who consider this to be utter shite and don't give a flying fuck.
 
 
Neon Snake
19:20 / 06.08.08
Thanks for that Mr Snake. Sorry for my misunderstanding.

Apology accepted, but unnecessary on your part. I think it probably is easier to read my post as "waving one hand around airily dismissing these funny ideas that you silly filesharing chappies cling to", as opposed to "gesticulating in frustration about ideas that I'm struggling to understand and therefore see relevance of". Poorly chosen words on my part.


However...now that I do understand it, I don't think it changes my view.

I still believe that an MP3 can be lumped in with tape/CD/vinyl/whatever as the method/medium of delivery. That might not be technically accurate, but in terms of practical application, I think it is the most useful way of thinking about it.

Of course, I still think that regardless of any ethical viewpoints, it's too late to stop it now anyway.

The article about temes/memes looks interesting; I'll have to devote a little more time to reading it in depth as these are concepts that are relatively new to me.
 
 
Char Aina
21:53 / 06.08.08
[W]e are currently becoming witnesses to the event and live business making the same stupid mistakes that the recording industry did before them

What mistakes are you thinking of, in particular?
 
 
Char Aina
21:55 / 06.08.08
The article about temes/memes looks interesting; I'll have to devote a little more time to reading it in depth as these are concepts that are relatively new to me.

The Blackmore thing is a video, by the way. There my be a transcript knocking about. It's a TED talk, almost all of which are just under twenty minutes long.
 
 
werwolf
10:10 / 08.08.08
just take a look at livenation and their series of massive and amazing deals (although some seem to be falling apart).

looking at what information goes around about these contracts it seems that livenation wants to create a 360° environment, just like many (major and independent) record companies are trying to do. yet, contrary to the recording industry (having learned their lessong and trying to assemble their 360° deals in a modular, profit-oriented fashion), livenationa dangles a huge advance in front of artists, puts out quite insufficient and unfair deals (from what the industry grapevine reveals) and are putting up massive overhead. i can't find the link to the article, but one insider once estimated the madonna deal to become profitable for livenation no earlier than 12 years into the deal. and that was assuming that she keeps on selling equally or better to her current status and plays at least 1 us-tour each year.

the way i see it, livenation are trying to force competitors out of the market with raw muscle, to be able to shovel up the profitable smaller deals in their own wake. a fatal strategy, if you ask me.

at the same time, every promoter is slapping up ticket prices something fierce. sure, live market is booming, can't hurt to get some more profit out of it. that's what they might think. also many artist managements look for tours and performances to yield what their respective artist(s) have lost in recorded music sales. but we can already see where this is leading: big name tours fail to reach critical sales, dates are being dropped left and right, because ticket sales can't uphold production. smaller bands have a harder time putting tours together, because promoters are favoring the big margin tours (not having woken up to the fact that that legendary big profit margin is only valid when you nearly sell out your capacity, which as pointed out above they are starting to fail to do, perhaps not often enough to be viewed as emerging pattern, but surely increasingly).

this all reflects what the majors did in the 80ies and (mainly) in the 90ies: flooding the market, dumping prices (which has the same effect as raising prices - when you dump your margin, you will have an increasingly hard time releasing higher cost products, because you have saturated your market on b2b and b2c fronts with absurdly low prices, resulting in a market refusal to take the high cost product off your hands, forcing you to tie down your production costs and increase volume to maintain your overhead, creating a vicious cycle...).

ah, sorry... this might have come out a bit confusing... but i'm in the midst of something else, but wanted to post that, because i don't think i will be able to check on this thread before tuesday next week, so...
 
 
werwolf
10:38 / 18.08.08
aw, come on... this isn't another thread i've killed, is it? jeez... what is this, the 'curse of werwolf'? -_-"
 
 
Char Aina
14:52 / 20.08.08
I don't think it's your fault, to be honest. I'm pretty busy, so I haven't had time to get into the thread. There's a wee bit of a wall of text thing going on, which makes it hard to keep up to speed, but I don't think that's the main problem.

I've tried inviting folks to the thread, but it hasn't worked. There are some folks who might have stuff to say, but they're not members of Barbelith.

Some of them have applied, so maybe when the bottleneck issue gets sorted out, there'll be a sudden surge in interest.

If you have time, maybe you could help with admissions?
 
 
Neon Snake
15:24 / 20.08.08
Hh, conscious that I owe LC a response on the meme/teme stuff, but have not made time to go through and process the links yet.
 
 
Neon Snake
17:39 / 29.08.08
Ok, I've had some time to go through the links and the presentation, and have some comments.

(Firstly, I actually find the whole idea very interesting; it links in with some ideas on virals I've been looking at recently, so thanks for the links.)


Now, it would seem to me that some memes would be almost public domain, to an extent.
So, the 'idea' of using MP3s for music, for example, would be one that starts somewhere, and carries round the world, as indeed it has. Maybe the 'idea' of using a LAME encoder, and certain bitrates.

It would seem that there is an amount of detail that one can drill down into, before something stops becoming a meme that is up for public consumption, and starts becoming something more specific, something that is 'owned' (I'm guessing in an 'intellectual property' sense, but my experience in the field is limited) by someone, and they have rights over it.

My position, I think, would be that an MP3 of a particular song by a particular band would be specific enough to take out of 'public domain' territory and into 'ownership' territory.

Would that be right?
 
 
Char Aina
19:07 / 03.09.08
My position, I think, would be that an MP3 of a particular song by a particular band would be specific enough to take out of 'public domain' territory and into 'ownership' territory.

Would that be right?


I'm not sure you can really draw a solid line... But maybe we should try? I'm not sure how or where, though. My first thought is that lines like that might move depending on the context.


I think the watershed moment for digital culture (at least in terms of music) was around the mid to late 1980s.
What happened then has shaped modern music dramatically, and what happened was sampling. Sampling already existed - the Mellotron was a keyboard that triggered tape loops and had been around since the sixties - but it took off in a big way with the introduction of affordable and easy to use digital samplers like the sp1200 and the MPC60 (The MPC60 is still used today by a good few artists). Digital recording had been used since the 70s, but it was when digital reproduction was made affordable that the cat was really out of the bag.

Technology combined with music, but probably most dramatically with the Amen break.
Most folks here will be familiar with the Amen break. It's the drum break from the gospel cover by The Winstons, Amen Brother. (You might not know you know it, but barring injury or isolation, you have definitely heard it. If you aren't sure, it's here.)

The big deal with Amen isn't how useful a break it was, though it is tight as fuck. There are other great breaks. What's interesting about Amen was how use of the break was prosecuted at the time, what uses it could be put to with the emerging technology, and how incompatible art and the copyright model were becoming. The Sonny Bono Act further distanced copyright from the active reality, ensuring a clash between users and copyright owners in the late nineties, and expanding the yawning chasm of dissonance between cultural expansion and ownership. Since forever human culture has progressed through imitation and variation, and music is certainly no different.

The whole copy culture shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone with an understanding of the digital world observing the explosion of sample culture in the mid to late eighties. A sample is basically the same as any audio file, called a sample because a small piece was all you could reproduce. As soon as accurately copying something small is possible, longer, higher bitrate files become inevitable(I think Apple started developing an early version of the iPod concept shortly after that...I can't find the interview with Wozniak where he says so, though).


I think the music industry was largely caught napping. Content with mining money from the audience as long as they could, they didn't think to adapt to the changes. The law has tightened a few times since, shoring up a faulty model, and we've ended up where we are today.



A while ago I saw an 18 minute video that discussed the relevance of the break to modern music, and i would highly recommend it to anyone who likes modern music. It argues my case for me a little, but it also has a lot of interesting thought-fodder regaridng musician's rights and the protections afforded to copyright owners.

I also found this timeline of sampling; what has been sampled vs when it has ben sampled. I think it demonstrates quite dramatically what changing legality has done to the music.
 
 
Neon Snake
19:59 / 03.09.08
I'm not sure you can really draw a solid line... But maybe we should try? I'm not sure how or where, though. My first thought is that lines like that might move depending on the context.


Here lies the difficulty, I think. Whilst I'm fairly confident in my view of 'if you want to listen, at will, to a particular performance of a particular song by a particular band, then you should pay for it', you don't have to move the line too far before that becomes untenable, or difficult, or have a precedent against it.

For example, request based radio stations. Although it IS different, it's not MASSIVELY different. Yet it's free.
Take Napster; I pay a tenner per month, but I get to listen to a whole shedload (hundreds of thousands of tracks, at least) of songs at will. I pay, yes, but the amount is nominal vs the return.

I have all my music on my computer. Someone more technical could probably do something which allowed you yourself to stream it (not download it, just stream it) from my PC. Would that be illegal? I don't know. I have a feeling that it might not be. There is precedent apparently that says otherwise.

It's those kind of things that muddy the water, I think. Whereas I actually hold the opposite view to a lot of people, in that I think the technology involved *shouldn't* make a difference, since the practical application is the same regardless of whether you're using vinyl or MP3, it's inevitable that it does matter, and the law should somehow reflect that.

(And yes, I do know the Amen break, but I didn't know that I did until I followed your link)
 
 
Char Aina
04:11 / 06.09.08
On Amen, I'd really recommend that video(again) to anyone who has even the most fleeting interest in music that uses drum machines and samplers.

Dude is dry, but he has knowledge.
 
 
Char Aina
04:30 / 06.09.08
allowed you yourself to stream it (not download it, just stream it) from my PC. Would that be illegal?

I believe it would, yeah, depending on your location and mine.

A site I used for a while called Pandora was threatened with all sorts of legal action for doing basically that; they ran a web station that played like songs by matching tags - you suggest Prince, it sets up a Prince Radio station that plays loads of 80s funk - and they got banned outside the US.
That was where it ended up, but for a while they were looking at all sorts of ridiculous fines and fees that would have literally bankrupted them and pretty much given their site to the RIAA et al.

What they have is basically a radio station that can be tailored to an audience, one listener at a time, but it was deemed too close to music on demand to be allowed(there is a message on tehir site saying they are working on it internationally, but...)
As I said, though, it is still legit in the US. Strangely, that means you'll find hours and hours of non-US produced music by non-US artists, created by folk who can't use the site.
I don't think podcasts are all that safe either. The Adam and Joe podcast from BBC6Music(which is great,by the way)never has any music(aside from their own stuff), despite being a music show on a music station run by the BBC music department. If they can't afford to clear it, I'd guess nobody can.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
16:06 / 11.09.08
Check out my new thread with something new in the ongoing debate on filesharing... any thoughts?
 
 
Char Aina
16:17 / 11.09.08
I think we're going to see more and more of this sort of thing, especially from acts like Marillion. They're old now, and nobody will be putting them on the cover of NME anytime soon. P2P not only rewards those fans who have made them who thy are, but might also get the audiences up for their inevitable tour.

I think it will work, but I wonder how well. I also wonder how long this model of distribution can last; I sang it's praises upthread, and I stand by that. I wonder how long before we all have to adapt again, though.

We're having a label meeting tonight to plan our halloween event... I'll bring it up and see what folks think there.

More importantly, though, jack... What do you think?
 
 
ronfinch
17:35 / 13.09.08
To be honest the vast majority of people who have never sold a record/given it all away for free are generally not talented enough for someone to want to buy it. I have seen exceptions to this but as I say 'the vast majority'.
I have made countless albums and would not mind not getting paid if I didnt have to pay for utility bills, plumbers, electricians and all the rest. Tell me you are happy to give away your time/stuff for free and you can have mine.
I would be happy to give away my labour if I did not have to buy everything else. Everything else is just justification for common thievery.
 
 
Char Aina
03:21 / 14.09.08
To be honest the vast majority of people who have never sold a record/given it all away for free are generally not talented enough for someone to want to buy it.

To be honest, the vast majority of people who have had their music for sale are generally not talented enough for someone to want to buy it either.

I think you're missing my point, though. Free music need not be discarding the material if it's marketing. Labour isn't wasted, it's sold differently. It's been called freeconomics, and I think it works.

Everything else is just justification for common thievery.

Everything in this thread, or everything ever?
 
 
werwolf
11:47 / 13.10.08
oh my gosh! i have missed the surge of life in this thread. quick, cpr! XD

anway, Life Critic wrote:
I think the music industry was largely caught napping. Content with mining money from the audience as long as they could, they didn't think to adapt to the changes. The law has tightened a few times since, shoring up a faulty model, and we've ended up where we are today.

and i couldn't agree more. as i've pointed out before and as Life Critic has hinted at in his last post before mine (see freeconomics), it's not about the unmarketability of music or the lack of quality thereof or even the changes in the market.

in my opinion the key to it all is not to be able to further define owner and user - i think that is still valid as given in the basic creative ownership of works principles - but to identify and accomodate ways of service and usage. industry and legislation are lagging behind trying to prop up the leaky vessel of business plans of yore, while people are moving in entirely different directions.
 
 
Quantum
12:08 / 13.10.08
Good point well made here- http://xkcd.com/488/

 
 
werwolf
07:17 / 23.10.08
funny cartoon, only a bit antiquated as almost all content is now being offered as drm-free mp3 or in other drm-free formats. it's a slow process but it's taking place now.
they've finally (how long can it take to realize a mistake?) caught on to how drm was not such a good idea after all.
 
 
werwolf
08:56 / 24.10.08
this just in.
and i still think that drm is neither necessary nor possible to implement satisfyingly.
 
 
werwolf
17:01 / 30.10.08
in other related news, seems that RIAA's litigations aren't quite constitutional.
sez so here as well.
 
 
jamesPD
20:44 / 21.12.08
And now, Warner has pulled all their artists from YouTube.

"Warner Music Group ordered YouTube on Saturday to remove all music videos by its artists from the popular online video-sharing site after contract negotiations broke down. ... The talks fell apart early on Saturday because Warner wants a bigger share of the huge revenue potential of YouTube's massive visitor traffic. There were no reports on what Warner was seeking. 'We simply cannot accept terms that fail to appropriately and fairly compensate recording artists, songwriters, labels and publishers for the value they provide,' Warner said in a statement."
 
 
Char Aina
13:24 / 23.12.08
Warner wants money... but who gets what? Will it be like Viacom, who sued youtube for $1b over their content and then told the writers it was hard to put a price on all that internet stuff?

I can't imagine artists or the audience are the focus of such a move.
 
  

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