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Let's talk about file sharing and the music industry

 
  

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werwolf
08:43 / 28.07.08
Life Critic wrote: I've heard a few people suggest that music has been devalued in much the way you seem to be describing, and that the availability of cheap and free downloads is responsible.

If you can get it for nothing, you assume it to be worth nothing. If you pay lots of money for it, you figure it's worth lots of money.


and

All Acting Regiment wrote: It might be that these valuations based on how much we payed for the thing are, empirically, wrong

oh, uh, i made a blunder there. i didn't mean to say that music is being devalued or less appreciated. quite on the contrary, due to the huge amounts of instantly acessible music ready for consumption (whether legal or illegal) the usage of music in all aspects is higher than ever before. i'd interpret that as a sure sign, that people DO want their music and like it, too. what i really meant to say is that music as an object is being devalued. less and less people care about possessing music and are far more interested on only consuming it. that, imho, is very strongly connected to the price and market policy of the industry as well as the technological advances of the past 30 years.

All Acting Regiment also wrote: I also think that arguments about how we no longer value music can be dangerous, essentially nostalgic constructions

and i agree. that is not the argument i wanted to make, rather a reference to the devaluation of the sound carrier and the services tied to it - which is were the recording industry earn their money.

about the whole comparison issue between illegal downloads and stealing some physical objects -

the main difference between stealing a cd from a store and illegaly downloading a file is actually something (imo) that hasn't really permeated the industry itself, not to speak of the customer: the mechanics behind the sale of a cd are clearly those of a physical object, while the sale of a downloadable file takes on a much more pronounced service character.

the way i see it the majority of people (i'm always taking music afficionados out of the equation, because they will always be around and the will always invest in their music collections and their favorite artists, that's a love thing) just don't care about possessing cds anymore. and the alternative, the legal download, even starts off by appearing as something that you can't possess in the classical sense anyway. so, they don't care about what it is, it's just a means to end, which is getting to the music and listening to it - whenever and however they want. after all they've paid for "that", which is the usual argument.

what is "that? what do they think they have paid for? if you follow this through you will realize that the majority of people using legal downloads think that they've paid for a piece of music that they can now use as they see fit. they do not realize that what they've actually paid for is a ticket to "musical carny ride" and the operator is rendering unto them the service of using that ride in way that the operator has lined out, not the customer.

that's where i see the main problem for the industry here. they are trying to enforce antiquated business models that were created for physical objects and a market that wanted to posses them, for various reasons, onto a new world were physicality is just not a given anymore and ownership in the classical sense is being replaces by accessibility and usablity of assets. drm, access restrictions, criminalization of usage - all these things just don't belong into the new distribution channels and areas. the strategies that most of the current recording industry are following are just not up to date and will only harm their own businesses. they, we, need to do away with that and adapt our business to fulfill the customers needs and deliver the services that they really want.

another thing, most people seem to think that a record company brings out the record and then checks in the money. sure, these cases exist and major companies (but also many independents) have tried to minimize their investment to maximize their profit. but the average rule is still that the major investments into an artist's carreer are being made by their respective label and/or record company. now, these expenditures are things that label and record companies want to see reimbursed - investment must come back. but instead of adapting their investment and profit cycles to the course of the acts career the recording industry has historically attempted (successfully) to shorten that period and pump out "instant" successes. based on that they have put out their short-term capital, bloating themselves, going to the stock markets. but what happens when those "instant" success recipes start failing more often than not? your stockholders and functionaries will want to see monthly or perhaps quarterly results - NOT in the red, always profit - instead of annual overall results, because that is how you sold your assets to them as a record company. that's another problem that the majors are facing, they need to distribute their capital and investments over longer periods of time and more evenly, but have navigasted themselves into business positions that are not lenient in this regard.

in all of that, illegal file sharing and distribution are only another two drops, well, not drops, it's more like a bucket really and not an ocean but a large pool. and the pool hadn't been cleaned for ages... yeah, you get the drift.

back on to the thread topic.
Neon Snake has put down what is also my main concern regarding the ethics of illegal downloads: the illegal downloader is making use of a service that others have paid for, yet refuses to participate in this deal/enterprise.
 
 
Char Aina
10:44 / 29.07.08
the illegal downloader is making use of a service that others have paid for, yet refuses to participate in this deal/enterprise.

You can't really say that, though. Downloading and buying are not mutually exclusive acts. Refusal to participate is being inferred from one occasion of not doing so, but that need not be the case. Further, there's nothing to stop me downloading an album that I already own on other formats, and nothing to stop me from buying something I have downloaded.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:49 / 29.07.08
The lawyer's reprise:

The illegal and unethical downloader, by which we mean the person who downloads music which he or she does not already own in another format which is for some reason impervious to digitisation, and who does not shortly after having downloaded the music illegally purchase the music through buying a CD or paying for a legal download of same is making use of a service that others have paid for, yet refuses to participate in this deal/enterprise.

Having said which, downloading files containing digital representations of music you already own in another format from an unlicensed source not recognised by the music's producer is illegal (no fair use law in the UK), as is downloading in the same way files containing music you intend subsequently to purchase. If you were acting in accordance with the law, you would in both cases need to download the files from an approved source having offered the producer whatever remuneration they have requested. So, you are still making use of a service (if we take the ability to listen to music as a service provided by the producers) both illegally and without paying for that instance of the service. You may feel ethically entitled to download music if you already have the vinyl version or if you plan to buy the album as soon as it is released in the UK, but you are not necessarily legally entitled to do either, unless permitted by the copyright holder.
 
 
Axolotl
15:49 / 29.07.08
I'm not really aware of the fine details of the industry so may well be talking out of my arse, but is it worthwhile to examine the history of the music business? In the early part of the 20th century musicians' income derived primarily from gigging, even in the 50's this was probably still true. Admiittedly this meant being a musician meant long grulling tours and a generally lower income, and often a low social status but people still wanted to be musicians. Then technological developments made it possible through the sale of records (then CDs etc) and the involvement of record companies for musicians to make far more money by selling albums wide world. This meant that musicians no longer needed to tour to make money (or at least reduced their dependence on touring) and that the amount of money they could make increased vastly. It also created an entire industry to facilitate it - primarily due to the money that could be made. Current technological developments seem to be altering the situation. Can we therefore see the past 70 years (in which making it as a musician did give the possiblility of huge wealth and a growth of a large industry on their back) as a blip, caused by technological developments and later finished by further developments? This suggests that Jamespd's Heinlein quote would seem to fit.
This does of course ignore any ethical considerations to do with the the copying of music but I'm still working out my position on those, tending towards a position that realises the moral rights of an author over their work, but doesn't completely buy the corporations' arguments as to why they should continue to make millions and millions of dollars.
 
 
werwolf
09:03 / 30.07.08
good, so i wasn't using "illegal downloader" as a correct legal term. agreed, if someone follows up the illegal download with a purchase or has already bought something before downloading from an unapproved source, then i wouldn't mind. also, i don't mind when someone hunts down hard to get material through unapproved sources because the original recording is very rare or not in circulation at all or costs you an arm and a leg or something similar.

but that again brings my previously stated points into play: why is any customer forced to get this service from unapproved sources in the first place? why hasn't the industry worked out services that would offer all of that in a way that satisfies customers and artists alike?

the whole debate whether there are illegal or legal downloads would become ignorable moot in the second that the industry (and i mean all industries and business involved) would offer service-oriented solutions rather than clinging to the overhauled, archetypical "sale and distribution of sound carriers".

@ Axolotol: that's only partly true. a lot of the income that artists generated was coming from the source of publishing rights, which became more important (because easier to control and oversee) with the dawn of physical sound carriers, especially in the classic a&r climate of the 40ies, 50ies and even 60ies. the forced split between publisher and record company is another reason that artists and record companies feel the changes of the market to such a dramatic extent. one needs the other - sometimes more, sometimes less - but history has almost made enemies of these two parties. i don't think that the entire thing was just a 'blip', but it's evolving at a lot quicker rate than parties with vested interest are willing to adapt to. and we are currently becoming witnesses to the event and live business making the same stupid mistakes that the recording industry did before them, because they are still clinging to old business models (and the sums of money that were tied to them).
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:06 / 30.07.08
This does of course ignore any ethical considerations to do with the the copying of music but I'm still working out my position on those, tending towards a position that realises the moral rights of an author over their work, but doesn't completely buy the corporations' arguments as to why they should continue to make millions and millions of dollars.

There's something else which bothers me about the ethics issue, which is: given that there be some-one, some-where, losing out were one to download music illegally, of all the things one spends one time doing, is downloading the music the worst thing? Why should one make a big deal about not downloading music illegally, when it's quite likely that buying most brands of cheap food and clothing cause far more damage to far more people?
 
 
Neon Snake
15:36 / 30.07.08
I missed this earlier.

I said Further, artist X not recieving fair compensation for their work doesn't mean that I should get to listen to it for free.

Tuna Ghost Works For Dope, replied This sentiment, I think, is where I lose comprehension of the whole debate. The phrase "get to listen to it for free", and the way I hear it used, confuses me. I think people are often operating under at least two very different ideas of what "it" is (namely, the actual auditory information and the means to create it in a given space) but continue to conflate the two in discussions on this topic.

What is it you don't understand, Tuna Ghost? I'll try to explain it better.

By "get to listen to it for free", I mean that someone has downloaded it and hasn't paid for it, thereby giving them the ability to play it (and listen to it), at any time, for free. This is, clearly, something they would not be able to do, had they not circumvented the legal means of obtaining it.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:42 / 30.07.08
And something else I forgot, which really belongs earlier in the discussion - is there a difference between various illegal downloading habits? If one downloads entire albums by an artist, is that different to a situation where one downloads one song each by a wide range of different artists? Surely in that case, though the volume of data may be equal, the loss to each artist is made much smaller in relation to the smallness of the total ouevre that said song represents? I.E. that rather than not buying 10% of it you're only not buying 1% of it?
 
 
Neon Snake
16:02 / 30.07.08
There's something else which bothers me about the ethics issue, which is: given that there be some-one, some-where, losing out were one to download music illegally, of all the things one spends one time doing, is downloading the music the worst thing?

No, it's not. I'm sure that there are many things that are far worse.

I'm not fussed in the slightest about other people downloading stuff; I'm certainly not judging folk. I just don't do it myself.

Except in circumstances where I already own it on record, or whatever, in exactly the same way that I used to tape records so I could play them in the car.

I'm sure there's an argument to be made about how that is unethical, so, please, don't think that because I've said I don't agree with it that I think it's "the worst thing".

Why should one make a big deal about not downloading music illegally, when it's quite likely that buying most brands of cheap food and clothing cause far more damage to far more people?

Because it's the topic of the discussion, basically.

Of course, that line of reasoning could be applied to a lot of things, I'd have thought - "It's not as bad as something else, so why make a big deal out of it?"

Then again, isn't that the argument "for" filesharing? "It's not as bad as what the record companies do to the artists, so why shouldn't we do it?"

I've posted, as asked, my reasons for thinking it is unethical, and am happy to expand/clarify on them if requested.

I'd like to hear the argument that says that it is ethical.
 
 
Neon Snake
16:07 / 30.07.08
I.E. that rather than not buying 10% of it you're only not buying 1% of it?

Why? Because they're only a little bit illegal?
 
 
Char Aina
16:14 / 30.07.08
the actual auditory information and the means to create it in a given space

The auditory information is free. It can't really be otherwise, such is the nature of information. Memes will replicate, if at all possible. The means to create it, the performance or the recording of the performance, are not free. Getting someone to perform and getting someone to record, mix and master that performance is not free.


I may be speaking out of turn, but I think that was roughly where he was going with that.

Tuna? Was it?
 
 
Char Aina
16:38 / 30.07.08
Why should one make a big deal about not downloading music illegally, when it's quite likely that buying most brands of cheap food and clothing cause far more damage to far more people?

Because it's the topic of the discussion, basically.


I think there is a disproportionate amount of worry generated by massive companies, because they are losing money or see an avenue to make more. Buying cheap food and clothes may hurt the folk being paid fuck all to make them, but they don't have the attention of the world anything like TimeWarner. Exploit the guy who made your Primark shirt and he might be angry. Steal from Richard Parsons, and he has a team of lawyers and strategists to help him work through his anger.

That, and this is a thread about file sharing.

I think it's interesting that the issue seems always, always to be framed by the large organisations fighting filesharing as one of struggling artists trying to make a living Vs evil thieves. The reality is, most struggling artists, while worrying about filesharing, are not as bothered as multimillionaire artists and record execs. The 'death of music' as I have heard it referred to is of course a fiction. Music will never die. The death of the music indutry is more accurate. The death of the middleman is probably even closer to the truth.

If we look back at music history, artists have forever been exploited for their art by various middlemen. One thing that the internet has made possible(albiet still very difficult) is a direct connection between the artist and the listener.
Various parasitic(and also beneficial in many situations) relationships surround music, and the internet has reduced the absoloute necessity of those.

People are still being exploited, and people are still being ripped off. The idea that you can have 50,000 fans and sell 500 CDs is kinda insane. At least now though, if you sell those 500 CDs through your own website, it is quite possible you will get £5 from each one. I don't know what the average deal gets you these days, but I have heard a few people say they get pennies per album from a major label deal.

So yeah.
There is a new way of things becoming, and has been for a while. As a producer, performer and consumer, I think it is a far better way.
I think that music is at an amazingly prolific point as a result of technology. I think there is more music than there has ever been. I think that fans are closer to the musicians than they have ever been, and that is driving it.


Illegally downloading an album is clearly going to be aggravating to an artist who has invested in the old forms of revenue gathering and who suffers financially as a result. For Trent Reznor... well, I can't imagine he gives a fuck, because he has built his recent business plans with that in mind. So have I, and so neither do I.


Apologies for the ramble.
 
 
Char Aina
16:56 / 30.07.08
I'd like to hear the argument that says that it is ethical.

Well, I think you'd need to be more specific. I think many if not most record deals are unethical, and supporting them financially by buying an album is propping them up, giving them viability.

One musician friend of mine is currently locked in a deal he can't leave. If he sells fewer CDs than a certain amount, he is free to leave his horribly constrictive(and unethical as fuck) deal. By buying his CD, you would be helping to keep him in contract, reducing his ability to tour and record as he wants.

He has had to turn down gigs as a result of the deal, and he has also had to turn down collaborations.

We are losing music if people buy his records, and we are hurting him as an artist.

If you want to hear his album, which is available to buy, he might rather you downloaded it and came to the gigs he can play.

Would that be an ethical, if illegal, use of filesharing?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:27 / 31.07.08
The actual quote, which nobody ever remembers, is:

On the one hand information wants to be expensive, because it's so valuable. The right information in the right place just changes your life. On the other hand, information wants to be free, because the cost of getting it out is getting lower and lower all the time. So you have these two fighting against each other

Information wants to be free because the cost of disseminating electronic data trends downwards, and the types of information that can be represented as electronic data trends. However, information also wants to be expensive, and one of the reasons information wants to be expensive is because the cost of disseminating electronic data is not the only cost associated with the existence of particular data.

The difficulty is that the music industry has for a long time existed on, basically, a scarcity model. There are a finite number of physical examples of an object in existence - and, until relatively recently, these objects cannot easily be exactly reproduced, because analogue reproduction is always lossy. You can close that gap - putting a reel-to-reel next to a record player is lossier than a hi-fi with a direct link to a metallic tape. However, in any case the original, be it vinyl or tape or CD, has some unique and intrinsic value - not just the object itself, but the quality of reproduction it represents.

If you have access to the Internet, though, and can use it to download exact or good-as-exact replicas of the digital information representing a song, you lose that scarcity model. If there is only one vinyl copy of "Do I Love You" in existence, people who really, really want to own that copy will pay a large amount for it. If there are a theoretically limitless number of exact representations of the song available, what do you do with that model?

The most popular current approach - the one practised by iTunes Music Store, Rhapsody, Amazon and so on - is a kind of emotional surcharge. You get the file, you also get a sense that you are playing the game - remunerating the artist in some way, showing your respect for the system through which the music is created and distributed. The money you pay minus the cost of creating, hosting and transmitting the file is the emotional cost of being part of this system, plus the fee for the tangential benefits of ease of finding, security, guaranteed sound quality and so on - although all of these needs can be served through file sharing. Another approach is the "license" approach - which basically acknowledges that some people like a lot of music a month, others not so many, so charges a flat fee for unlimited downloads - the emusic model. The proposed levy works a bit like this, but it extends it downwards - the logic being that if everyone downloads music illegally, logically everyone should be paying the subscription fee. Like gym membership, this is based on the assumption that almost nobody will actually use more than the cost of entry in using the facilities (in this case, bandwidth and hosting fees). The levy would work for me because I spend more than a few pounds buying songs.

However, the problem with the emotional model, or the opt-in license model, is that there are various ethical arguments against them - somebody may disagree with the record label's policies, say, or the songs might be being released against an artists' will by a record label to fulfill a contract, or they might feel that by declining to rerelease music the record company is seeing to preserve the scarcity model to the point of forfeiting the right to have copyright respected - and somebody with such a conviction at present has almost no chance of being held accountable for the illegal actions that they took in adhering to their principles - it's not exactly like chaining yourself to a nuclear submarine as principled stands go. The current attempts to reconsequence illegal downloading are an attempt to make it feel less easy, and most of all not like any serious breach of the law - I imagine most people feel about it about as they might about stubbing a cigarette out on the street in terms of the risk they think they put themselves at of punishment.

It might be worth thinking of other things distributed along similar channels. Software is an obvious one, but in general software downloading is less common - because free alternatives exist, because often one can legally download trial versions which can be activated by a code, so the download itself need not be illicit, because the files are often bigger and take longer to download, because they are more likely to contain viruses, because they are complex and less likely to work at all if one part of the download is damaged. The main areas where illegal downloading is a problem are programs where the price is so high that the disadvantages are outweighed by the cost saving - Windows operating systems, Macromedia, Adobe, things of that nature. Comics are downloaded illegally, and this causes problems for the comics houses (especially with new or collected comics), but the numbers involved are so small that nobody outside comics cares. What does interest me there is that.. oh, name escapes me. The chap who drew Phonogram. Anyway, he said in his solo comic that while he wanted people to buy the comic (because sales figures are a metric of success and the likelihood of getting more work through that channel) but that he accepted conditions where that was not possible (due to distance from comic shop, for example), and in that situation he was OK with people downloading it, and that, although not legal, the ethical implications of that could be offset by making a Paypal donation to him. I think slightly unwittingly, he set up a parallel, voluntary payment scheme for illegal downloaders who wished to pay the creator (but not the producer, unless he then shared it out) in exchange for the reading of the comic.

You could certainly imagine a "DC pass", say, which not only gave access to scans of some comics on the DC web site, but also gave one the right to download DC-owned material from other sites (that is, sites DC is not paying to create, stock or manage) without fear of persecution - although as we know DC are no strangers to fights about who actually created some of their offering, and given that I've seen people spend £100 in a comic shop on new comics alone God knows how much that pass would cost. But one could see a situation in which one e.g. paid a comics provider (or a record label, or all record labels through a joint agreement or a levy on broadband connections or CD-Rs or whatever) a fee for the right to download, and then paid a download site (run independently) for a guaranteed level of download quality. The rights holder would get cash without distribution overheads, and would retain some revenue stream through premium/personalised (NIN-style)/specifically artist-supporting or ease-of-use/difficulty of finding elsewhere-inspired purchases of MP3s on things like ITMS, plus of course having the remaining, slimmed-down CD/BluRay audio/DVD audio market for traditionalists and audiophiles.

Right now, though, if one can get a song available on sale downloaded illegally for free with the same or less hassle, in a version of equivalent or higher quality, with the same likelihood of being penalised, the question becomes something like "How much would how many people be prepared to spend to feel like they are playing the game?". If the numbers don't add up, the publishers have to increase ease of use, quality or special features, or lower quality and ease of use of illegal downloads and the feeling of impunity of illegal downloaders.
 
 
werwolf
07:32 / 31.07.08
thank you, Jenna Elfman's Hollywood Haus. you have just laid out in nearest-to-perfect words what i was pointing out earlier: there needs to be shift away from 'industry' towards 'service'.

actually this might be a basis for an argument painting illegal downloading ethical: assuming you are looking for a service but this service is denied to you or not offered at all by the parties able to do so, is it unethical of you to look for alternatives (albeit illegal) that meet your demands? haven't thought this through yet. more perhaps in a later post.

oh, and by the way, i'm getting sick to the stomach by now hearing about the 'big bad music majors' and 'slave contracts' and what not. truth be told, yeah, the majors are acting like major jerks and have been doing so for quite some time. and yes, badly ripping off artists in their contracts happend. a lot. mostly in the '90s. but right now it's - ironically enough - the smaller labels that offer acts shitty contracts with absurd clauses, while the major companies try to put out fairer conditions. but since majors are things of the past and are carrying around a huge overhead - which is actually why acts go to majors in the first place, because that overhead can create power still unrivaled - they try to get money from any possible stream of revenue. that sometimes means that royalties paid to the artist appear miniscule. ah, what do i bother, i don't agree with how majors are going about their business (even the one i'm working at), so why should i care about misconceptions about it?
 
 
Char Aina
19:56 / 31.07.08
i'm getting sick to the stomach by now hearing about the 'big bad music majors' and 'slave contracts' and what not.


You may worry about misconceptions, but there are terrible contracts out there, and some of those are operated by major labels.
I don't think major labels are the only exploitative force in the industry, not by a long shot, and I don't think anyone here said they were.
That said, they certainly are one of the more problematic ones, because they have a lot more clout than a smaller enterprise. That clout allows them a lot.
For example, see Edgar Bronfman Jr. hiring Jim Griffin at Warner Music, and Jim suggesting the already mentioned fee-for-unlimited-downloading plan.
"I don't think we should be suing students and I don't think we should be suing people in their homes. We want to monetize the anarchy of the internet.", Says Jim


The only reason anyone takes it seriously is because they are a huge company. Further, I fear the Warner plan will largely benefit Warner and the other giants(EMI, Sony BMG Music Entertainment and the Universal Music Group).
I can't imagine the likes of Domino or DFA getting anywhere with a similar tactic, and I can't imagine wee guys like Scotch Bonnet or Stuff Records getting a cheque from an internet levy.
If you aren't an RIAA member(like the big four, unlike Lookout Records, Alternative Tentacles, etc) I don't think you'll get jack. If you are an RIAA member, you'll be helping them get rich so they can sue students.


That's not to say small=good. I'm fairly certain it doesn't. The wee guy is a prick too some days. I have heard plenty of horror stories that back that up. (Unfortunately the gory details could get some folks into trouble, so I won't be sharing those here).


The thing I'm looking worriedly at these days isn't major labels, though. It's major promoters. Live Nation, for example.

I have heard all sorts of conflicting stories about them, but it seems they are looking to be the new model for superstar support. There was Madonna's landmark deal, of course, but after that Warner still retains the rights to sell and license her back catalogue.
The Jay Z deal is a little different, and includes his music...

The roughly $150 million pact includes Roc Nation, as well as the rapper's own recordings and tours for the next 10 years.

Live Nation will reportedly contribute $5 million each year in overhead for five years and offer $25 million to finance Jay-Z's external acquisitions and investments, plus $10 million per album for a minimum of three albums within the deal's term. Jay-Z will also receive another $20 million for other rights including publishing and licensing. Live Nation is already producing the current Jay-Z/Mary J. Blige tour, which is putting up sellout numbers.

The Jay-Z deal follows major, multifaceted pacts Live Nation has struck with Madonna and U2. Speculation is that other mega-deals are also pending, ranging from developing artist the Zac Brown Band, to superstar artists like Michael W. Smith and Shakira.


from billboard.


Apologies again for the ramble. I seem to have been writing this post in bursts all day.
 
 
Neon Snake
20:07 / 31.07.08
The auditory information is free. It can't really be otherwise, such is the nature of information. Memes will replicate, if at all possible. The means to create it, the performance or the recording of the performance, are not free. Getting someone to perform and getting someone to record, mix and master that performance is not free.

Sorry. Either I'm not understanding this, or I'm not seeing the relevance.

The information isn't free. We are legally bound to pay money for the right to own the ability to produce the music we wish to listen to, if that music has been produced with the intent of selling it.

I can replicate, say a Beatles track, by all means, by playing it on guitar, and getting some instrument playing mates round to help out on the drums and the bass. And no-one can stop me doing so.

But it's an awful lot of hassle if I just fancy listening to I Am The Walrus, and The Beatles are arguably better at playing it than me and my mates.

In which case I play their version; which I am required to have paid for.

Were I not required to pay for it, because of some idea about the "auditory information" being free, then there would have been no incentive for them to have gone into a studio and recorded it; instead we would have a music industry which consisted solely of gigs.

I think it's interesting that the issue seems always, always to be framed by the large organisations fighting filesharing as one of struggling artists trying to make a living Vs evil thieves.

I think it's interesting that the issue seems always, always to be framed by the filesharers as one of struggling artists trying make a living Vs evil large organisations.

The reality is, most struggling artists, while worrying about filesharing, are not as bothered as multimillionaire artists and record execs.

Sure, but then that's because it's more of an issue to the record execs (or account managers, or whatever), who are having a much larger volume of "their" stuff downloaded illegally; or to the multimillionaire artists, who are popular, and therefore much, much more likely to have their stuff downloaded illegally in large volumes by Joe Public han the struggling artist who spent last Friday night playing to two man and a dog in the Cockrobin Arms.


I think many if not most record deals are unethical, and supporting them financially by buying an album is propping them up, giving them viability.

Ok, I can buy that, to an extent. It's the same reason why one would not necessarily invest in an arms or tobacco company, should one's ethics conflict with that.
However, I can't help but think that maybe it's the people who are signing the deals that give them viability, to a much greater extent than those who are simply buying the latest Madonna long-player.

You mention your friend, who is locked into a horribly constrictive, and unethical as fuck, deal; further, he is apparently incentived, unwittingly, to produce crap records that won't sell, in order to gain freedom from his deal to go elsewhere.
Look, this is going to sound awful, but I can't help but wonder why on earth he signed up to such a deal, when there are now so many alternatives? You said yourself that it is better that people download his album, and go to his gigs.


In terms of ethics - yes, in this instance maybe it would be more ethical to download his songs than to buy them; but it's a really specific example which relies on some unique information that you've provided in the course of this decision, which Joe Public would not be in any position to know.

There's a whole element here about framing filesharing as some kind of righteous fight against evil corporations who take advantage of naive young musicians (in the same way as earlier you framed it in reverse); it's my opinion that filesharing is justified in this Robin Hood-like manner, but is actually carried out largely in order to save spending twelve quid on the new Oasis album, knowing that the likelihood of getting caught is next to nothing.

The ends, of course, may justify the means. Filesharing may, somehow, force the industry to offer fairer deals and contracts. It may force the industry to take a good look at itself and change it's business model.

However, as has been alluded to, the cat is now out of the bag.

Were the model to change; why would one stop filesharing?

Haus mentions "playing the game", paying a sum that one feels is reasonable recompense.

What would that sum be? Different for everyone, I guess.

Radiohead are a band with a fairly loyal fanbase; In Rainbows was self-released via their website with a pay what you like model.

Theoretically, then: one would assume that if people illegally download because of an ethical disagreement about record companies, then these people would jump at the chance to pay money directly to the band.

Alas, this wasn't the case. 62% of people paid nothing.

Out of all the people who did pay, the average spend was about £3.

It's only one example, but it doesn't lead me to any conclusion other than that people download because they can save some money, and are happy to deny the people who provide the music any recompense for it.

It leads to the worrying conclusion that when there are clear ethical ways to pay for the music, people will still avoid paying; being unwilling to "participate", being unwilling to spend to feel that "they are part of the game".
 
 
Neon Snake
20:09 / 31.07.08
ah, what do i bother, i don't agree with how majors are going about their business (even the one i'm working at), so why should i care about misconceptions about it?

No, no. Please DO bother.

It's at the heart of the arguments for and against. I've no doubt that I'm harbouring some misconceptions myself, and if those are leading to incorrect conclusions, then you are in a position to clarify.
 
 
Char Aina
21:23 / 31.07.08
struggling artists trying make a living Vs evil large organisations.

For me, that's not what I see happening. I see necessary and beneficial distribution channels for artists being heavily controlled, and artists more often than not suffering as a result. That can be done by labels, other artists, radio stations, magazines, whatever. The internet has removed the controls somewhat, and I find that exciting. It's exciting because the motivation among large labels, TV channels, magazines and so on doesn't seem to be that relevant to artists'.

My opinion that artists often get shafted is older than online filesharing, and I think the parasitic nature of many parts of the music industry is a phenomenon even older still. From the very first band I was in, I have been thinking about how not to get shafted when I 'made it big' because from very early on I'd been hearing stories of bands losing out.


I think struggling artists have less to fear from the internet than those seeking to support or exploit artists do. I say it's interesting that the RIAA and so on suggest they are fighting for the little guy because I don't think they are. I think they are fighting for the middlemen.

Those folks still have jobs to lose, of course. We should probably be worrying more about them at the moment than about musicians. They rely on music, but musicians largely don't need them anymore. If illicit downloading gets monetized, how does that help most of them?
 
 
Char Aina
21:34 / 31.07.08
Just got an email from someone without an account who says I can repost it here. Let me know if that's inappropriate. It corrects a misapprehension of mine about Domino and DFA, so I figured it was germane.


Been reading that thread with keen interest. I think your last few posts on the thread are excellent - HOWEVER, DFA is a subsiduary of EMI, and Domino is a sub of Universal, and from what I have heard both are issuing really hard hitting, all-rights-owning contracts to their prospective artists. Something nobody has mentioned on the thread so far is that most "indie" labels now are backed by majors, so the distinction between small and large is mostly fabricated. Alternative Tentacles is prob one of the last rue indies, and a handful of others. It would be most interesting to hear what the REAL indie labels have to say about filesharing and downloading. And yeah, horror stories about small label contracts abound too, not to mention the instability of being entirely self-providing, which I am sure has sunk many labels and bands.

On 'real indie', I hear 'are you an RIAA member?' is one line drawn. Alternative Tentacles I know are not.

Wikipedia - List of RIAA Labels
 
 
Char Aina
21:43 / 31.07.08
...and following that link, and then on to the references at the bottom, it seems the RIAA is swelling it's ranks by adding non-members to lists.

Which is wieird, eh?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
02:54 / 01.08.08
The information isn't free. We are legally bound to pay money for the right to own the ability to produce the music we wish to listen to, if that music has been produced with the intent of selling it.

This is what confuses me: you say the information isn't free, and immediately tell me that what I'm paying for is the right to reproduce the information on some media whenever I feel like it, not the actual information. So in what sense am I paying for the information, rather than the means to reproduce it electronically whenever I please, when we've established that the information can be reproduced in other ways? I suppose if what we're referring to as "the information" is Marcel Mule performing a piece in 1973 (or whenever, actually. He's dead, so asking him to simply perform the piece again will yield only silence, hopefully), then the only way to produce that information is electronically, making the means and the information identical for all intents and purposes.

At any rate, I agree that this particular discussion is probably not relevant to the overall debate.

I will maintain, however, that someone demanding that I pay for something rarely means that I am (feel?) required, ethically or practically, to do so. What this means for the music industry has already been discussed far more eloquently than I could manage. Seeing as how my ideas of property are apparently different from most folks', combined with the fact that I'm a musician raised to believe that professional musicians not having money is the natural order of things, I should probably watch this discussion from the sidelines.
 
 
Neon Snake
06:59 / 01.08.08
This is what confuses me: you say the information isn't free, and immediately tell me that what I'm paying for is the right to reproduce the information on some media whenever I feel like it, not the actual information. So in what sense am I paying for the information, rather than the means to reproduce it electronically whenever I please, when we've established that the information can be reproduced in other ways? I suppose if what we're referring to as "the information" is Marcel Mule performing a piece in 1973 (or whenever, actually. He's dead, so asking him to simply perform the piece again will yield only silence, hopefully), then the only way to produce that information is electronically, making the means and the information identical for all intents and purposes.

I apologise, Tuna Ghost, but I'm really, really struggling here to understand where I'm being unclear.

Can you explain what you are referring to and conceive as "the information"; it might help me understand what is unclear about what I'm saying?

You mention Marcel Mule playing a piece; is this different to my example of wanting to listen the Beatles album version of I Am The Walrus?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:35 / 01.08.08
This, I think:

You say the information isn't free, and immediately tell me that what I'm paying for is the right to reproduce the information on some media whenever I feel like it, not the actual information. So in what sense am I paying for the information, rather than the means to reproduce it electronically whenever I please
 
 
Neon Snake
12:27 / 01.08.08
Ok...

Even with a few extra hours to mull it over, I'm still struggling to understand what isn't clear about what I said.

The information, as I concieve of it, is the digital file, or the data held on a tape, or encoded into the grooves of a record. That is what gives you the ability to reproduce it, and is what you are paying for.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:33 / 01.08.08
Yes, but I think I disagree with or am misunderstanding:

I suppose if what we're referring to as "the information" is Marcel Mule performing a piece in 1973 (or whenever, actually. He's dead, so asking him to simply perform the piece again will yield only silence, hopefully), then the only way to produce that information is electronically, making the means and the information identical for all intents and purposes.

There are plenty of ways to reproduce the information (by which we mean the performance of the song by Marcel Mule) non-electronically - most obviously the tape onto which which it was first recorded, the acetate that was turned into, the LPs it was released on - these are all the physical products of essentially mechanical processes. It's when the information on the analog artefacts is digitised, and becomes purely electronic, that problems begin, because there is no physical object (a) and because that electronic artefact can be copied endlessly with no necessary degradation in quality (b). So, the music industry still want to treat that as an object - something that you can't play at the same time on many different machines, for example, as you could not play a physical LP on two turntables at once. DRM is basically a way of trying to make digital objects behave like physical objects - having to be in a particular place, behave in certain ways, not be transferable to others while also being kept by the original buyer und so weiter.

Gah! Sorry, must go midthought.
 
 
Char Aina
14:39 / 01.08.08
I should probably watch this discussion from the sidelines.

If you must, but don't feel you should on our account.
 
 
Char Aina
16:06 / 01.08.08
62% of people paid nothing.
Out of all the people who did pay, the average spend was about £3.


Seems that it depends who you believe. I hear from The Times that only a third of 'In Rainbows' downloaders didn't pay for it:

Given the choice of how much they wanted to pay for Radiohead’s new album, about a third of fans decided to keep a hold of their money.
In Rainbows, which became available to download yesterday, is the first album to be sold on an “honesty box” principle. An internet survey of 3,000 people who downloaded the album found that most paid an average of £4, although there was a hardcore of 67 fans who thought that the record was worth more than £10 and a further 12 who claimed to have paid more than £40.

....
James Blunt, the three million-selling singer songwriter told The Times that Radiohead’s approach could undermine the principle that artists should be rewarded for their work.


A later piece on the giving away of'In Rainbows':

One of the recording industry's most daring experiments ended on Monday. Three months after Radiohead stunned the music industry by allowing fans to pay whatever they wanted for the album, In Rainbows, the band has now opted for a more traditional sales approach.
That was fast.
Just weeks ago, the group was being congratulated for laying the groundwork for a new business model that pundits said could one day save the music industry. But as Radiohead prepares to distribute songs the old-fashion way--selling CDs out of retail stores--not everybody is cheering.
Nicky Wire, a member of the Manic Street Preachers, a rock band whose hits include "Send Away The Tigers," told a news publication last week that Radiohead's offer "demeans music."
"Fair play to Radiohead for doing something different," Wire told the United Kingdom's Daily Star. "It's certainly great publicity, but I think it kind of demeans music. Music used to be a market; now it's all gone digital. It's worrying (that) cinema is doing well, video games are doing well, but music isn't. The free-download phenomenon is ruining the industry."
Such statements are heresy to the "free" culture, but Wire may be right to question whether Radiohead's experiment was a success.



I think it is unlikely the who-paid-what figures will ever be 100% reliable, but it seems fair to say, at least, that Radiohead created a huge buzz around them by doing the limited-time-offer giveaway.
As another article on the same topic reminds:

In July, Prince gave away his album Planet Earth for free in the U.K. through the downmarket Mail on Sunday newspaper. At first he was ridiculed. Then he announced 21 consecutive London concert dates — and sold out every one of them.

That's some pretty powerful PR.
What it means for the wee guy is not the same as what it means for the big guy, obviously. Prince is Prince, NIN are NIN and Radiohead are Radiohead.
I think that these new models give us pause because they shine a light on problems with the current system of music distribution.

Jay Z on his Live Nation deal:
"It's really about trying to invest in the future, trying to invest in maybe coming up with a new model," he said. "Because going in hard making records with artists and throwing those records into a system that's flawed is not exciting for me."


Interestingly, JayZ echoes my own thoughts there. I think trying to use the old models when they are so clearly flawed is pointless. I think perfomance is going to have to be the cornerstone of a musicians earning, as it was before recording was possible.

Recording has given the music industry such a huge boost over the last hundred odd years, giving us access we could never have had to artists we would never have known about and in turn, giving them access to us.
As a performance that travels more easily than the performer, recordings gave musicians the ability to reach so many more people.
They still do that, and turning that connection into a living is the new game artists need to start playing.

Performance seems to be the obvious avenue for that, until of course they start building robots atop canny mountain that can replicate that too.


The information, as I concieve of it, is the digital file, or the data held on a tape, or encoded into the grooves of a record.


There's an interesting video about memes and temes that I think is relevant, if a wee bit tangentally - Susan Blackmore talking at TED. She talks about a third replicator and the ramifications of it's existence. TED being TED, it could be a bit more in depth.
 
 
Char Aina
16:48 / 01.08.08
As you can imagine, the web is hoaching with chat about filesharing and what it means for music.

From Gene Simmons (Gene Simmons blames fans, P2P for killing music industry):
"The record industry is dead. It's six feet underground and unfortunately the fans have done this," Simmons said. "They've decided to download and file share. There is no record industry around so we're going to wait until everybody settles down and becomes civilized. As soon as the record industry pops its head up we'll record new material."

...to Negativland(Negativland in Support of Peer-to-Peer File Sharing):
As musicians, we are happy to support peer to peer (P2P) music sharing technology on the web as facilitated by such programs as Morpheus. As artists, we support and actively promote the right of such file sharing software and networks to exist and to operate in the uniquely new digital domain of non-material cultural exchange that is the World Wide Web.

Besides selling our work in the form of compact discs, we encourage and promote the free exchange of our own music on the Internet using file sharing programs and P2P networks. We consider this new opportunity to share our music and ideas with others, and for others to share our music and ideas with each other, to be good for us, good for society, and good for art.

...
On the Net, supply is irrelevant, there is only demand.

Obviously there's a big difference between KISS and Negativland, but they do seem to be on opposing sides of the debate.

From the EFF(Monetizing File-Sharing: Collective Licensing Good, ISP Tax Bad):
We are big fans of a collective licensing solution for the music file-sharing dilemma: music fans pay a few dollars each month in exchange for a blanket license to share and download whatever they like; collecting societies collect the money and divvy it up between their member artists and rightsholders. It's not a radical idea -- that's roughly how we pay songwriters for radio play, concert hall performances, and the music playing in your favorite restaurant.


From Corante (from Free Strategic Advice for the RIAA):
Last week, I advocated that the RIAA go on the offensive against commercial filesharing networks, such as Sharman Networks, in innovative ways that don't include more lawsuits, such as reverse engineering Sharman's interface and networking protocols and publishing them on the web. Additionally, I argued that the RIAA should provide legal support to projects that were being legally threatened by Sharman Networks for interfacing with Sharman's networks (One Way for the RIAA to Go on the Offensive).
Frequent commenter Cyphrpunk, called this "the craziest idea [he'd] ever heard".
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:33 / 01.08.08
I should begin by clearing up what I mean by music information being produced electronically--Haus mentions LPs and audio tape, which I lumped in with digital files as electronic in that it takes electronic equipment to actually produce any music. Except in the case with really old phonographs, I suppose, which only further illustrates what a poor choice of words I used.

Moving on: Neon Snake, I fear that when I've finally made myself clear you'll realize that you have wasted time and brainpower on a trivial notion that probably wasn't worth the effort. My apologies for that. Anyways, here goes:

Where I work, there's a few satellite radio stations that we receive to play to guests as they go about their business. As I work, I overhear, say, The Verve's "Bitter Sweet Symphony" (truth be told, I hear it about 45 times a week, and it's slowly driving me insane). In my own poorly chosen terminology, I would claim that I've received the information. What I've chosen to refer to as "the information" is the sequence of actual waves of compressed air that my brain interprets as "Bitter Sweet Symphony", not the digital information that, while stored electronically (or otherwise) and connected to the proper device, will generate the proper sequence of waves of compressed air.

What I've chosen to call the information is, to me, free. I don't pay to hear Bitter Sweet Symphony (although I'd probably pay to stop), even though someone has apparently payed for the ability to reproduce the song as they please. I can reproduce the song freely, by means of playing it on an instrument, which isn't The Verve's production of the song, but I maintain that the information is virtually the same and that this information is free.

My illustration with M. Mule was attempting to display that, if one is calling M. Mule's own performance as the "information" in question, then the information and the media it's stored on are for all intents and purposes the same thing, because M. Mule isn't around to serenade us anymore so the storage device and accompanied players are our only routes.

As you can see, this doesn't really have much relevance to the discussion. Forgive me for leading us off track, and I hope I've made myself a little more clear.

Also, let me add that if Gene Simmons disappeared from the face of music in general, I would not shed any tears.
 
 
Neon Snake
17:38 / 01.08.08
Thanks, Tuna Ghost, that certainly clears it up.

I'm definitely using the term differently; more in line with your example with M.Mule.
 
 
Neon Snake
17:49 / 01.08.08
Life Critic, here is the site I culled my information from regarding Radiohead's album.

It uses a month's worth of data, and a larger data sample. It's not surprising to me that after a month, the number of "free downloaders" grows; it would seem reasonable to assume that the "big" Radiohead fans downloaded on the day of release; it would seem also reasonable that they might be willing to pay more, although that is of course speculation on my part.

Regardless, I think it illustrates that even when given an apparently ethical way to pay for music, a large percentage would still choose not to; however, the album still, I'd have thought, made a reasonable amount of money. It would be interesting to try to model whether it made more money overall by marketing it in such a fashion than had it been released in the standard way.

The point about Prince, NIN, and Radiohead being who are they are is a good one. For one, it's currently a novelty; the PR value of such a stunt will diminish over time. I'd also note that these bands/artists have had a considerable shlef-life, building up fans over many, many years. Were a new band to do the same thing, the results would be, of course, much poorer.

Regardless of personal ethics, it's clear that the industry needs a sea change in how it thinks of the internet.
 
 
Char Aina
04:04 / 02.08.08
Chief among the arguments for acts accepting that their recordings will gain them less income is that you will gain fans, funding the live shows that'll earn your keep.

While Radiohead pioneer and falter a little trying a new income model for recordings, I reckon they also gain attention - and an audience for their shows. I don't think Prince, even Prince, would have sold out 21 consecutive dates without having given away his album.

Maybe the point is not that there is a new way to sell recordings, but that the recordings aren't the point anymore; shows are.



One serious flaw I can see in the performance-is-all model is it doesn't really cater for folk who make music for in the house or on the walkman. Maybe musical installation pieces might become popular? Hotel lobby, park gates, maybe outside your window?
 
 
Char Aina
04:11 / 03.08.08
By which I meant to say....

Were I not required to pay for it, then [...]we would have a music industry which consisted solely of gigs.

...precisely.

Recordings transformed music, and filesharing is doing it again. I think fighting the change would be like standing against recordings back in the day.


Also, 'some idea' sounds really dismissive, and a wee bit sneering. Fancy not doing that? I understand you disagree, but I was only trying to help you understand what was being said. I find this topic fascinating, and would love the conversation to continue. That cool?
 
 
Neon Snake
09:11 / 03.08.08
Also, 'some idea' sounds really dismissive, and a wee bit sneering.

Is that how it read? I apologise, that wasn't my intent. I was trying to indicate that I didn't get the concept, not that I was dismissive of it.
 
  

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