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Temple Meta-Thread

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
20:06 / 21.11.07
Um... are we still discussing what the temple ettiquette may be, or are we running around several tangents? I can't quite tell...

Maybe Temple ettiquette should include not hijacking threads?

Perhaps a dedicated "Hijack This" thread would be of help. Posters could take the ideas from one thread that don't quite fit in with the threads purpose, though don't seem worth starting up a new thread for, yet still seem worth discussing, and continue them in a thread dedicated to this purpose, ala 'stupid questions'.

Also, can we finish playing Bingo? As far as I know, no one got around to point 5. of turning the thread into "a useful card to stick in the wiki [to] direct newbies, 'tricksters' and silly people to."
 
 
Olulabelle
21:11 / 21.11.07
For the people here in this thread that think the ideas about guidelines are limiting, I would like to know, what it is that you feel you would not be able to post within those guidelines? Can you give an example of a topic title that you think would not be acceptable? Perhaps if you could do that we could look at a specific example which might give us a little more clarity. Because I think there are heaps of lovely, fascinating topics which come under the banner of chaos magic and which certainly wouldn't be knocked in any way if they were presented with a little bit of thought and value.

I'm surprised the board is being presented as a place where some magical thinkings get short shrift. Because it's only stoopid un-backed-up thinkings that get short shrift.
 
 
EmberLeo
23:29 / 21.11.07
Maybe Temple ettiquette should include not hijacking threads?

Perhaps so. But a potentially necessary extension of that ettiquette would be to not respond in-thread when somebody makes a side comment that could devolve into an entire hijack tangent.

Ironically, that could require the old hands and moderators to handle things differently, because even pointing out that something could hijack the thread tends to devolve into a tangent - often a very nasty one. A more extreme version of this is troll-feeding, and is distressingly hard to avoid if the troll has any kind of skill manipulating people. I only bring this up because I've seen us do it repeatedly in the past to greater or lesser degree, and know I'm guilty of it myself. Threads devolve into more and more meta layers of nitpicking or argument over semantics, moving further and further away from direct discussion of the experiences and theories that were the basis for the thread.

In my own experience, as a moderator elsewhere, and participating as an older student in college classes, I've found that one of the more effective ways to pull a topic back to center is to gloss over the aspects of a person's contribution that are non-sequitures, or to attempt to draw the connection myself, so that I create an overt opportunity to be corrected in a way that illustrates the connection between their contribution and the topic at hand, but without putting them on the defensive by implying that something is wrong with their contribution because the connection is not immediately obvious.

But that's certainly not the only way to do it, or even the best - it's just the one I've had the best results in using skillfully.

--Ember--
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
00:35 / 22.11.07
Potentially necessary yes, but that doesn't mean a response can't be made in the thread whose purpose is to be hijacked, and then linked to in the original thread. It's just a simple way to maintain the integrity of a thread, whilst giving the freedom to pursue tangents.
 
 
illmatic
05:43 / 22.11.07
I've said this before but I feel that the best way to improve the quality of discussion in the Temple is to actually talk about your practice and experiences. This means different things to everyone, and we all have to struggle with issues of privacy and so forth, but that is what I'd like to read, and contribute to, when I have time.

Personally - and no offense intended to Zippy - I would rather discover any implicit rules, standards or shared values in the act of talking rather than talking about talking. It's a bit meta-Barbelith for me, which given my frustration with the board - due to the impossibility of the board's software ever helping to reinforce any consensus reached (should that ever happen) - kind of does my head in.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:37 / 22.11.07
I think there was possibly a useful discussion to be had here but right now I'm too flabberghasted by some of the comments to go on. Think I need to go and roll around in the thread on Wolf Gods or something.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:50 / 22.11.07
Basically all I want from this forum is a general commitment to striving for healthy, functional practices that enrich the lives of the practitioners and those around them. That will, at times, mean interrogating your own practice to make sure everything is going OK and see where it might be getting better, and having a degree of flexibility around your interpretation of your experiences. I don't fucking understand why anyone wouldn't want that but apparently being able to maunder on completely unchallenged about one's past life as a minor character off Gundam Wing is way more important.
 
 
EmberLeo
09:18 / 22.11.07
I'm not seeing that, Mordant.

What I am seeing is people talking at angles to eachother and pulling statements that seem relatively moderate to me to one or another extreme.

Folks who are suggesting critique and citation being quoted as demanding arguments from authority. Folks who want personal experience to be the basis for discussion being described as not wanting critique.

Honestly, it doesn't actually sound to me like anyone who has posted in this thread *wouldn't* like lots of threads all about personal experiences and discussion thereof. But the various styles of communicating that are diverse enough to make people feel like they're at odds with eachother - violent agreement.

Ultimately, I think anyone who cares enough about what the etiquette should be here is probably well within bounds, and anybody who is out of bounds is unlikely to read an FAQ or this thread anyway, unless they're deliberately trolling.

So yeah, maybe this thread is a bit more meta than is useful after all.

I've enjoyed the conversation, anyway. It's helped me clarify in my own head how certain social mechanisms work - but that, too, is meta to the stated purpose of this thread.

--Ember--
 
 
illmatic
09:57 / 22.11.07
I don't fucking understand why anyone wouldn't want that but apparently being able to maunder on completely unchallenged about one's past life as a minor character off Gundam Wing is way more important

To be fair, there are only two posters who are arguing from something like that position. One is Wolfangel - and being familar with his posting, did you ever expect anything different? The other is Darth Daddy who I don't think has been around the board that long. I'm not surprised he's not up to speed on all the debates we've had here previously.

(*Why am I getting sucked into this?*)
 
 
illmatic
09:59 / 22.11.07
Oh, sorry - three. I missed Mako's posts because I skipped over them. Oh well.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
10:32 / 22.11.07
We're using the term received lore here to indicate the reverse of unverifiable personal gnosis, ie. "that lore which is generally accepted as valid or worthy within the mainstream of a tradition."

I have some concerns with these terms. Firstly, unverifiable personal gnosis seems to have distinctly perjorative associations, by which I mean that in most of the cases I've seen it being rolled out it seems to be applied to "other people's views". Kathryn Price Nicdhna (et al) in the Cr FAQ: An Introduction to Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism describe UPG as:

...a label used to identify information gained through meditation, intense flashes of intuition, visions, and other spiritual experiences. Often this information may not be verifiable through primary or academic sources but seems to be usable in personal ways. ... "UPG" and its variants are used specifically to indicate beliefs arrived at via mystical means, not ideas or intellectual conclusions reached from academic research.

I can understand the need to make distinctions between different orders of "truth-claims" (i.e. personal opinions being over-generalised) but the problem of setting the personal insight against academic research is tricky, to say the least, as what exactly contitutes "accepted" academic research apropos of any given approach to magic? There's also, it seems to me, a potential danger of dismissing an invididuals' insights into their own practice because they do not conform to some artificial "academic standard".

Also, this framing of "received lore" as that lore which is generally accepted as valid or worthy within the mainstream of a tradition also begs the question of according to who? And what constitutes the "mainstream" of a tradition anyway? Is "received lore" what academics say? One's immediate friends or fellow-travellers? Something that turns up frequently in books or on websites?

I'm thinking of a friend of mine who, after having a visionary encounter with a female form of Ganesh, made the mistake of mentioning this on a internet discussion board and was soundly told off by people throwing all kinds of links at her in order to "prove" that Ganesh "can't be female" so her experience got framed under this "UPG" label. Which was totally uncalled for, as there is a female form of Ganesh (sometimes named as Vinayaki or Ganapatihridaya), but she's just not very well known. In the hurry to scramble my friends' experience, no one apparently bothered to check.

thoughts?
 
 
Quantum
11:07 / 22.11.07
Quantum, who did say that Experience ranked higher than UPG or Recieved Lore.

I'm not sure what the question is, I'm afraid. In the same way as a scientific theory I read in a book stating acids and bases mix to create CO2 might sound plausible and convincing, a theory in a book stating that looking at your hands aids lucid dreaming might sound plausible and convincing.
But until I mix some chalk and lime juice together and watch them fizz, or stare at my hands and then realise I am dreaming (and thus can fly and throw fireballs and sleep with Michelle Pfeiffer), it's going to be a plausible theory rather than verified practice.
Likewise UPG. If I dream that Michelle Pfeiffer tells me I can summon spirits using a potato and 10cc of mouse blood, until I try it out it's just a theory.
Practice is stronger than theory is my point really. Mind you, the Temple is also a place to discuss magical texts and talk about occult research, grimoires and such so it's not like *only* practical experience is valued, just that it's valued more than armchair wizardry.

I'm pondering zippid's example, which I think would be a good hypothetical test case.
 
 
Quantum
12:49 / 22.11.07
Truth is what stands the test of experience. (Einstein)
 
 
Digital Hermes
16:44 / 22.11.07
One thing I've enjoyed and found useful in the Temple, has been the constant challange and debate that is undergone here. This is a very (to my eyes) critical area of Barbelith, or of forums in general, and this is to its benefit.

I have engaged in discussions here with people who did not share my views, but so long as they presented their opposition in a lucid and sound fashion, then my concepts have the benefit of being tested by rigorous debate. Elements of my practice have been altered and even somewhat formed by discussions I've seen or taken part of here.

Those posts that are less than lucid, or less than critically debateable, barely register as anything more than a chuckle for me, and cause me no distress, only amusement.

The only problem with this very critical group, is that there is something of an 'initiation' to pass just to start posting instead of lurking. The critcal and thought-out responses to somthing like Otakin can be seen by someone less critical or committed as enforcing an amorphous orthodoxy of magical practice, instead of enforcing a methodology of critical appraisal. Once through, you develop a thicker skin, and hopefully sharper debating skills, as well as the humility to recognize that your own viewpoint can be challenged even while challenging someone else.

I don't know if formulating a 'guideline' would somehow prevent those less critical or commited individuals from posting content that seems aggravating, repetitive, or argumentative, just because those sorts of posters probably won't read the guidline...
 
 
illmatic
19:21 / 22.11.07
You've expressed a lot of my there thoughts (only more eloquently than me) DH. Thanks.

The only problem with this very critical group, is that there is something of an 'initiation' to pass just to start posting instead of lurking.

When this thread started, I thought "I bet there will be a row by page 2" and I knew exactly who would be on the opposing sides.

I don't know if formulating a 'guideline' would somehow prevent those less critical or commited individuals from posting content that seems aggravating, repetitive, or argumentative, just because those sorts of posters probably won't read the guidline...

Much my feelings. Any sort of guidelines could only ever be voluntary anyway and would be the type of thing rejected - or more likely, utterly missed - by more problematic posters anyhow.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:46 / 22.11.07
Sorry, that should have read "unverified personal gnosis" not unverifiable.

T the T:

I can understand the need to make distinctions between different orders of "truth-claims" (i.e. personal opinions being over-generalised) but the problem of setting the personal insight against academic research is tricky, to say the least, as what exactly contitutes "accepted" academic research apropos of any given approach to magic? There's also, it seems to me, a potential danger of dismissing an invididuals' insights into their own practice because they do not conform to some artificial "academic standard".

Also, this framing of "received lore" as that lore which is generally accepted as valid or worthy within the mainstream of a tradition also begs the question of according to who? And what constitutes the "mainstream" of a tradition anyway? Is "received lore" what academics say? One's immediate friends or fellow-travellers? Something that turns up frequently in books or on websites?


Those are some good points, Trouser, and you've actually touched on a subject which is dear to my heart. It arises continually within discussion around my particular tradition.

On the face of it, things in NT-ville should be pretty simple. On one hand you have the lore: that which can be gleaned from surviving texts, from contemporary reports, from archeological investigation, and so on. On the other, you have UPG: information derived from mystical practices, from sudden flashes of inspiration, etc. You then have a spectrum with the hard-line orthodox practitioners who focus mostly or wholly on the former at one end, and the "fluffier," neo-pagan-influenced UPG-bunny at the other.

The actuality is more complex. For one thing, the lore itself is not 100% reliable. What we have here is a primarily oral tradition which was written down by Christian monks. Much of what we have to go on was recorded after paganism had started to decline, in some cases many hundreds of years after Christianity had completely overthrown older religious beliefs and practices (officially at least). It is heavily influenced by the politics of the time, by the prevailing mores, by what kinds of stories people wanted to hear. The reconstruction of the pagan religion(s) of the time is likewise inevitably influenced by the prevailing culture and by the convictions of those doing the reconstructing.

There are great schisms occuring in modern heathenry along such fault-lines as the use of mystery practices, prayer and trance-possession (people who will invoke the Gods to full possession as part of their devotional work vs. people who refuse to pray at all ever because they don't "grovel on their knees like those Xtians"), the problem of Folkism (people who believe that only those of Germanic stock should ever worship Team Norse vs. people who aren't fucking turbodouches) , and issues around gender and sexuality (people who believe in the rigid enforcement of allegedly traditional gender roles, restriction of female sexual expression and prohibitions against homosexuality vs. people who aren't fucking turbodouches). One can certainly sketch the outlines of a general heathen mainstream, but within that there are huge areas of doubt and conflict. There's also the fact that the very vociferous groups who tout themselves as the mainstream often aren't, they're fringe outfits with loud voices but dwindling memberships.

Even when everyone at the table is deriving their interpretations from the same texts, you still get disagreements. These can range from minor points such as the correct translation of a word, to the meaning attributed to whole chunks of the surviving lore. There are a lot of core theological issues over which heathens are divided. Supposedly hardcore by-the-book lore-geeks will cheerfully dismiss inconvenient passages as Christian interpolation if they could threaten that person's veiw of how things ought to be. (Christian interpolation is a real problem and not to be underestimated, but the term is frequently deployed more along the lines of "I can't hear you, blee bloo blah.")

How much value one places on UPG in an NT context depends on a number of factors. One of these is how important the actual worship angle of being a heathen is. For some, it's reconstructing the cultural elements--the aesthetic, ethical and social principles, which is important--rather than the spiritual aspect per se. (That's perfectly fine, obviously, but there's a danger of slipping wholesale into SCA territory and just using the Gods and wights as window-dressing.) However, for those who are interested in the devotional aspect there's no getting away from the fact that 1000-odd years of downtime plus repression by the political groups who espoused the incoming religion has left us with a lot of gaps which cannot be filled from lore. Records simply do not exist of everything we would like to know, and it's up to us to discover or rediscover the knowledge we're missing. Mystical practices and techniques geared around the gathering of UPG can help us do that.

Personally, I place a tremendous value on information obtained through these means because my whole spiritual life is basically made of UPG. Quite apart from the fact that my best God is regarded as actively evil in some quarters, some of the Beings I have the closest of relationships with are down to a few lines in the Lore, if that. I'm also passionately devoted to Sigyn, and we know nothing about Her. She's down to three mentions in the lore and they all say basically the same thing: She's the wife of Loki, who stays by His side in the cave. We don't know if She's one of the Aesir, the Vanir, or some other tribe; no reference to any cult, no record of anyone back in the day who counted Sigyn as their particular friend amongst the Gods. But She's there all the same; if you reach out to Sigyn, you get a response. Some of my most profound, moving, cherished spiritual experiences have originated from my devotions to Her. I'm not alone in this either--other people say the same thing.

Raven Kaldera, a pagan shaman who deals with some of those forgotten or reviled Gods, came up with the useful concept of PCPG: peer-corroborated personal gnosis. This means basically UPG which has been experienced and reported by more than one person independantly. It's a useful tool (although obviously there's a risk of people working within groups influencing each other without meaning to). I like this because it gives us another way of evaluating and discussing UPG data.

It is easy to use the term UPG to dismiss someone's experiences as in the Ganesha anecdote above. The thing is, there's UPG and UPG; there's doing a faring-forth to find out more about Hyndla, recording your experiences and sharing them with your community; and then there's the person who defeated Loki in single combat and who He now deferrs to as an advisor. I kind of don't have a problem with dismissing that, even though I have no evidence to the contrary.


(Roy Medallion: I know, I need to quit, just can't seem to stop picking the scab.)
 
 
*
05:11 / 23.11.07
I'm entirely open to the idea that this thread isn't as useful as it seemed to me on first impulse, and if it needs to get locked and sunk for awhile—or for ever—I'm okay with that.

(WEIRD tangent: My housemate was trying to explain the Dark Crystal ((film)) to his friend today, and now I'm feeling like when I made this thread there was a skeksi in my head saying "Skeksis want peace! Make peace with gelfling!" AND I WAS TOTALLY BUYING IT. Sorry.)

At any rate I'm about to go on a long vacation and I'm not planning to be reading or posting. So, mods, much as I could kick myself for doing this to you, this thread is yours to do what you will with between now and December 3rd.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:13 / 23.11.07
Well, "Leave the Otakukin alone!" aside I think there's some potentially useful matierial that's turned up in the thread. For example, the topic of processing UPG in a meaningful and respectful way is an interesting one. So's realistically evaluating the relevance and reliability of academic references. I'd like to read more on that.

So no, I don't think the Skeksis were driving.
 
 
Quantum
10:15 / 23.11.07
Me too- I'm very interested in our views on substantiating UPG, assessing received lore (book larnin') and how we'd want people with problematic views to present them here.
Like zippid's example of the person believing non-jews have different (inferior) souls. Hopefully it won't happen for real, but what would we expect of a sensible poster holding these beliefs?
I'd say I'd want them to explain their position acting on the assumption that it's their belief, not a universal truth. So here's my attempt at an example of bad then good approaches-

"Because people who aren't from my trad have inferior souls, they cannot do proper magic, poor things. It might sound controversial, but it says in the Zohar (chapter Gimel) that they do, so there you are."

"My trad includes a belief in the soul, and that souls have intrinsic qualities dependent on their source. We believe our souls are different, due to the teachings of the Zohar (link, ref, quote etc.) which means we can do things other people can't like x and y. I have found this to be true due to my experiences a b and c.'

The first is impossible to address without swearing, the second is at least possible to debate. Still dead contentious though, but amenable to polite discussion.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
10:29 / 23.11.07
Mordant

That's a recognisable "take" on the "Northern Tradition". BTW, I was a member of Edred Thorrson's Runegild for two-three years. Is that now considered a "fringe" group? Anyhow, what you've written brings me round to another point that I wanted to address - which is that what's perceived as the "mainstream" of a tradition can be an ever-receding horizon - it depends on where you're "standing" at any one moment. So a "tradition" might look homogenous from the outside, but once one becomes immersed in it to any degree, one becomes aware of the huge areas of doubt and conflict within its "boundaries".

It seems to me that "tradition" often gets used as a place-marker - in that there's a perception of a particular matrix of beliefs/practices as "traditional" that one might want to distance oneself from - or as is more common, a particular group of people that one wishes to assert difference from. But again, this is very relative. From what I can recall of my time in the Runegild group ("Hall" is how it was termed) there was very much a in-group feeling that "we" were not part of the mainstream NT crowd precisely because there was an emphasis on working from primary sources, learning Old Norse, etc., rather than relying on ("shudder") populist accounts which of course, is what "those others over there" (who aren't as good as us, natch) did. What's seen as "orthodoxy" and what's seen as "edgy" depends very much where you're position yourself viz. the overall notion of a tradition - that is, how you (and your mates) think of yourselves in relation to everyone else.

It's no surprise to me that this whole notion of UPG vs "the lore" has emerged from the historical reconstructionist lobby - and, I would guess, as a consequence of the rise of internet discussion boards and how to "manage" the often yawning gulf between say, a local consensus on an issue and idiosyncratic assertions of the "I beat up Loki on the astral plane"-type. But I'm not sure that this whole notion of UPG has much relevance outside of situations where people are worried about either historical veracity or consensual standards. For instance, I don't recall this notion ever being flagged as a "problem" in the chaos group I was involved with - as participants weren't on the whole, interested in making that kind of distinction between one kind of informational source and another (not that there weren't plenty of other issues to have arguments about).

I also wonder to what extent the seemingly increasing concern amongst some practitoners over finding a commonality with what passes for current academic consensus about historicity is a reflection of the growth of "pagan studies" as a discipline.

more later....
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:48 / 23.11.07
I was a member of Edred Thorrson's Runegild for two-three years. Is that now considered a "fringe" group?

Kind of, yeah. At least by most of the American heathens I encounter online. There's the heavy HCM influences, the fact that Thorsson himself is a member of the ToS, the emphasis on ritual magic, and--amongst the more hardcore reconstructionists--the use of runes for anything other than writing your name on your drinking horn.

I also wonder to what extent the seemingly increasing concern amongst some practitoners over finding a commonality with what passes for current academic consensus about historicity is a reflection of the growth of "pagan studies" as a discipline.

Very probably. There's a growing desire for authenticity in one's pagan devotional practice, which I personally would broadly support. People are moving away from Maragret Murray et al., away from a certain regrettable tendancy to use HCM as a one-size-fits-all template and shoehorn the God(s) you happen to want to talk to into those ritual structures; and so on. Ideally this would mean that pagans generally are moving towards a relationship with their Deities based on striving for a deeper understanding of the culture, traditions and overal historical context around Them; unfortunately this is not always the case. There's a risk that such study can become less about increasing one's own understanding and more about stocking up on ammo to use against The Other Side.

(The NT kludge is a bit weird though because as I said above, there's a subgroup of appreciable size who arguably aren't exactly pagans at all and aren't terribly interested in the spiritual aspects. They might participate in group blóts as an expression of community, but mightn't really engage in religious practice beyond that.)
 
 
Quantum
12:16 / 23.11.07
Well, perhaps I could ask how as a community we'd like people to express themselves about, say, who can practice Norse stuff? (or similar problematic example of your choice)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:28 / 23.11.07
Eeeeyah... that's not the greatest example though. The thing of it is, although there's certainly a subgroup of NT people who have very strong views about who should worship "their" Gods (the Folkists), there is no equivalent to the example zippy offered. One, we don't have a holy book. There's no Bible for heathens, no Talmud; we have textual sources, but these are compromised as I outlined earlier. Two, there is nothing, nada, absolutely zilch in those texts which supports the Folkie position--rather there is much to undermine it. While Folkists often like to present themselves as the ultra-observant hardcore of heathenry, with everyone who isn't a Folkist as either a misguided soul who will come around once ze has done sufficient study or a dilettente, this is not actually the case.

So if a Folkist showed up on Barbelith and started saying that someone of non-European extraction should not be permitted to hang out with our Friends in the North, I would have absolutely no problem with tearing them a new one on theological as well as political grounds, and asking for a ban if they didn't pack it in. The position is as wholly indefensible as it is repulsive.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
12:58 / 23.11.07
...realistically evaluating the relevance and reliability of academic references. I'd like to read more on that.

It can be difficult. Take for instance translations of primary texts, which are a major resource for me. There are some texts that I have two or three different translations of, because I'm very aware of translation/interpretation issues. This begs the question "How do I know these translations are 'reliable'? Well, in an overall sense, I "don't know" - and arguably the definitive approach would be for me to learn the languages and translate them myself - which would be an enormous undertaking. So instead, I fall back to on finding out how the scholars whose work I'm relying on are thought of within their fields, on my own judgement about their work based on how much of it I've read, and how much 'sense' it makes in terms of my own current understanding (i.e. how I "theorise" my practice - itself shaped by (a) reading (b) doing and (c) discussions with other practitioners) - and occasionally asking the few academics I know personally in this field what their opinion of "so-and-so's" work is - or reading reviews in various journals and also trying to find "critiques" of their work. Sometimes it can be quite crushing to find out that a book by one scholar who's take on a subject I find quite inspiring has been heavily dissed by another scholar who's work I also find useful. But that's part of the critical process for me.
 
 
*
17:13 / 23.11.07
Also, if we're actually going to talk about the Zohar test case better listen to Ev, because I could have been wildly misinformed. I'll try to find the actual citation but going away etc etc.
 
 
Quantum
17:39 / 23.11.07
not the greatest example though

What would be a good example? We can talk about it alongside assessing sources and such, I'm sure.
I find I gauge textual sources and anecdotal evidence quite similarly- congruence with other sources*, whether it tallies with my experience, internal consistency and that 'ring of truth' which is harder to define.

*this is a tricky one when lots of people agree something but it turns out to be all based on one or two sources that are fraudulent. I'm with TtT on primary sources, like any discipline they're vital.
 
 
EmberLeo
23:16 / 23.11.07
people who aren't fucking turbodouches

*falls down laughing* Tell us how you really feel Mordant.

Raven Kaldera...came up with the useful concept of PCPG

Not that I don't adore Raven's work, but he's not hardly the only (or even first) person to come up with that concept. I've also heard it called SPG "Shared Personal Gnosis", USG "Unverified Shared Gnosis", and VPG "Verified Personal Gnosis". The usual example I've heard given is...

Lore: Freya likes Cats, Gold, and Honey
PCPG/SPG: Freya likes Chocolate and Cider
UPG: Freya likes my recipe for strawberry salad

Trouser: I was a member of Edred Thorrson's Runegild for two-three years. Is that now considered a "fringe" group?

Um... It is 'round these parts as far as I can tell (we were discussing it just this morning over breakfast actually), but some people consider Hrafnar and Seidhjallr "fringe" too, and I thought we're pretty well within the mainstream (if on the liberal/mystic side of center), so I really have no idea where "center" is.

Quantum:

I think that's where "independantly verified" comes in. I'm all for local consensus within groups that work directly together, but one must acknowledge that if we all think something is true because we all had the same instructor, there's still a single point of failure.

I understand this is particularly problematic for Kemetic (i.e. Egyptian) reconstructionists.

--Ember--
 
 
Quantum
14:20 / 24.11.07
I thought of a good parallel example. Lots of people believe that in the southern hemisphere water drains down a plughole in the opposite direction to the northern hemisphere. You can find that 'fact' expressed all over the place, books, the internet, conversation, but it's just not true. (It's especially frustrating when somebody challenged on it says' Oh it's the coriolis force' as if they know what it means.)
Likewise, Freya liking strawberries could in time become a piece of received wisdom due to the chinese whisper effect, when people repeat what they've been told, found all over the internet, in books etc. with very little in the way of verification.
What's that quote about beliefs about magic being transmitted directly from book to book with no thinking in between? Like that.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:34 / 24.11.07
In fact, this has pretty much happened wrt to Freyja. The Vanadis is said to travel in a chariot drawn by two great cats. If you go on most general heathen fora and ask what the names of the cats are in the lore, it's dollars to donuts that someone will tell you the cats are called Bygul and Trjegul (Beegold and Treegold, that is to say honey and amber). Thing is though, Freyja's cats are not named in any of the surviving texts. The names Bygul and Trjegul were invented by Diana L. Paxson for one of her books. However, they are so catchy that they've penetrated people's consciousness and now of course Freyja's cats are called Beegold and Treegold. Everyone knows that!

This is harmless IMO. I mean, if someone calls Freyja's cats Bygul and Trjegul it's no skin off anyone's nose. The trouble starts when you get things like "of course the Gods only want white people to worship them!" or "of course the Gods want you to beat your wife up if she gets out of line!" or "of course the Gods hate gays and lesbians!" without ever examining how such convictions arose or their implications for the basic rights of others.
 
 
EmberLeo
20:47 / 26.11.07
Ok, and even if the gods DO want that (which I don't believe), is there any reason we should give it to Them?

But maybe the whole "question your gods agendas" angle is another layer entirely.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:21 / 28.11.07
Well, absolutely; I think that's a very reasonable point. (I could go off on a tangent here about how funny it is that certain people who are all about the standing up to yr Gods, not grovelling like an Xtian etc etc suddenly come over all starry-eyed and fundamentalist when it comes to challenging things like the Gods' alleged homophobia or racism, but I've kvetched enough for one thread.)
 
 
EmberLeo
18:40 / 28.11.07
Well... People are rarely in the habit of challenging those they agree with, which is exactly why an echo chamber is so dangerous.

It's also why a form like this one, where you can fully expect to be challenged even if folks are generally inclined to believe and/or agree with you.

See, there, I made us on topic

--Ember--
 
  

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