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darth daddy
00:08 / 21.11.07
All right. You all have beaten it out of me. I have a serious concern about the "hardening of the orthodoxies". This board commenced as a discussion about an amazing and illuminating fucking comic book.

It probably merits a post of its own, but we have a serious issue about traditional wisdom versus gnosis wisdom. I come from a chaos magick perspective which cares fuck all about religious tradition vis a vis actual results from religious practice. If one is illuminated by practicing Catholicism, let me know what you did and why you believed it worked. If dressing up like a Telly Tubby and fucking Sailor Moon led to knowledge and wisdom, let me know why and how and I might try this. Simply citing a tantric text from the 14th century as a source does not make it authoritative. I do not believe these people from the 14th century were a hell of a lot different from us, people trying to transcend a mundane culture. They invoked gods, and "were spiders", and attempted to learn something about themselves and their world.
 
 
EmberLeo
00:14 / 21.11.07
Darth, it's not that I don't understand your point - I just don't see how you're being dissagreed with by anyone here?

Where are people saying personal gnosis and direct experience are bad things, or to be discouraged? It sounds like the highest value is for direct experience regardless of whether it was personal gnosis or lore or random chance that prompted the experience.

--Ember--
 
 
darth daddy
00:28 / 21.11.07
Hate to admit it but you are right that I may be creating a straw man argument. Some recent threads, ie: guru and diety creation have seemed a bit "Dalai Lama said its so" to me. However, I do have issues.
 
 
*
00:29 / 21.11.07
(Sorry, EmberLeo, I was making a distinction between UPG and Received Lore—the latter being the kind you get out of books or handed down to you from real-life in-the-flesh teachers. Which, yeah, is an experience, but it's likely to be 2/3 someone else's experience.)
 
 
EmberLeo
01:01 / 21.11.07
Zippy, I understand the difference between UPG and Lore.

What I was asking is to understand the distinction being made between Experience and UPG.

--Ember--
 
 
EmberLeo
01:03 / 21.11.07
Oh! I see. I misunderstood "Recieved" to mean "Channeled".

Regardless, though, my actual confusion is as I cited above - recieving/discovering/dreaming/watevering UPG is an experience in itself, so I'm confused as to why it's being listed as less valuable than Experience.

--Ember--
 
 
Papess
01:04 / 21.11.07
guru and diety creation have seemed a bit "Dalai Lama said its so" to me. However, I do have issues.

Then take them up there.
 
 
EmberLeo
01:09 / 21.11.07
I admit to being a bit baffled - the Guru thread is rather specifically about gurus... so yeah, there's going to be "and the Guru said XYZ". The Dalai Lama is a fairly well respected expert on the topic, so it seems like citing him would make sense in context. There must be other threads entirely where it's not applicable, of course. But... I mean, isn't that kind of like being upset that people are referring to extra-terrestrials in a thread about aliens?

--Ember--
 
 
*
01:10 / 21.11.07
Darth, you may come from the chaos magic tradition (I think some chaos magicians here would be insulted by the use of "tradition" there, in fact) that cares fuck-all about traditional lore. But in some people's traditions, traditional lore is a vital part of their practice and experience. It's part of not being the asshole "HULK SMASH REALITY TUNNELZ!" person that I talked about earlier to recognize that, within those traditions, lore and authority may be important. Question it, critique it, experiment with it, and make up your own mind about it ultimately. Especially ask people to address how it measures up to real life experience, and expect people to do the same for your ideas. But if you embark on dissing others' practices just because their tradition invokes a traditional authority, you can expect not to be taken very seriously, I think. Just as you ask people not to dismiss your practice because it rejects outside authority.

Make sense?
 
 
*
01:17 / 21.11.07
EmberLeo: I'm not sure I've said it's less valuable than (independently verifiable?) experience. I think that's open to discussion. Myself, I certainly tend to check my UPG against my independently-verifiable experiences as well as lore as well as etc. That would imply, to me, not that it's less valuable, but that it's not the kind of evidence on which I tend to rely without some kind of secondary support. I also apply the same criteria to how I evaluate others' presentations of their ideas. If it's all UPG, I tend not to accept it until I've seen some kind of outside support, and if there is none then I'm unlikely to apply it to my own life and practice unless it substantially matches some experience I've had.
 
 
Papess
01:18 / 21.11.07
Thank you EmberLeo and Zippy for that, because I think I have already developed a facial tick today.

#@$%$@! mars retrograde...


Back to the discussion!
 
 
EmberLeo
03:44 / 21.11.07
Zippy:

Personally, if I'm actually calling something "UPG", it's based on how I recieved the information, and how that information clicks and holds up relative to the rest of my practice. "I have an idea" is not UPG. It's just an idea. Maybe it will become a piece in the larger puzzle that eventually adds up to Personal Gnosis.

But regardless, my question was primarily directed at Quantum, who did say that Experience ranked higher than UPG or Recieved Lore. I don't think you said that... or have I gotten a name change confused again?

--Ember--
 
 
*
05:58 / 21.11.07
Oh, sorry. Being the center of attention again. Quants? UPG != experience?

If I call something UPG, it's because I haven't seen it in lore anywhere and no one else told me it was so, but I had a dream/saw a vision/had a flash of inspiration/read it in the sticks. It might relate to other, verifiable, experiences I've had, or it might not. And it's not the same as a working theory, which is something I've carefully (or casually) thought up with the (slightly) rational parts of my brain to explain how my experiences relate to lore relate to UPG, or vice versa or inside out.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:23 / 21.11.07
Simply citing a tantric text from the 14th century as a source does not make it authoritative. I do not believe these people from the 14th century were a hell of a lot different from us, people trying to transcend a mundane culture. They invoked gods, and "were spiders", and attempted to learn something about themselves and their world.

Of course citing such a text does not necessarily make a post "authoritative" (unless it was a post discussing some aspect of tantra and the text was relevant). However, a post citing a text based on someone's long-term practice would IMO lend more weight to a point than a post based entirely on personal opinion and not derived from either lore or practice.

The people who wrote those texts were basing them on their practice. You know, stuff they actually went out and did. They did stuff, they wrote down the results. Then some other guys went out and did stuff based on their stuff, and they wrote down their results. For centuries. I mean yeah, just because something is old doesn't make it good, but are you seriously trying to imply that a text based on generations'-worth of actual practice is worth no more than something made up a couple of weeks ago?
 
 
Unconditional Love
08:10 / 21.11.07
Well over the last 6 years i have practised ATR's for a year, Hoodoo for about two, ceremonial magic for approximately 6 months, drumming for nearly 6 months, Kung fu tai chi bagua hsing yi for about 3 years, sigils for about 6 years. Eastern based ceremonialism for about 2 years alongside the kung fu etc. (consecutively)

And have talked and discussed all of it in this space. oh and pop culture entities perhaps coming up to a month.

Before that a variety of shamanic techniques for about 11 years off and on, oh and extensive meditation practice since i was 17.

Never been a part of a tradition and never will be. (full stop)

Aside from that for the last two years investigating positive thinking, nlp, psychic phenomena and a variety of other esoteric subjects (especially with regards to the effects of sound and music).

Now what i see happening now ie this focus towards me gives me the impression that you are right, i need to be elsewhere, thats fine by me, its about time to move on to other places and look for something less familiar that challenges me in other ways to the challenges i find here.
New ways to learn always provoke a differing insight.

This is a convenient point for me to end something that has become less productive as an interaction for myself and others.

Pop culture magick, remote viewing and various positive thinking techniques and body work await on an ever broadening horizon.

Thanks for all the past support from everybody.

Laterz. Take care.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:35 / 21.11.07
I note that you don't actually discuss the depth to which you engaged in any of those techniques or traditions.

For example, I could claim to have been practicing sigil magic for 20 years, because I started around 1987 and am still using sigils now. However, the truth would be that I started using them at 14, mucked around with them off and on for a couple of years after that, lost interest, started using them again when I was about 22, lost interest again, and now only use sigils rarely and then as componants of other magical workings. The longest continuous amount of time where I was seriously engaging with sigils as a stand-alone technique would actually be less than two years.

How much can you really expect to get out of HCM in 6 months? What are "various shamanic techniques"? How often did you practice--daily, weekly, monthly?

Also: The reason for the focus towards you is that you made some fairly hostile comments which you're being called on. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable but heigh-ho.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:42 / 21.11.07
This board commenced as a discussion about an amazing and illuminating fucking comic book.

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHFUCK.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:52 / 21.11.07
Sorry. I'll unpack that ARGHFUCK a little.

Appealing to the Spirit of the Invisibles as part of a criticism of Barbelith is a regrettably common and increasingly ineffective tactic. darth daddy, if you came here for a community dedicated to or informed by The Invisibles, or indeed any other single source, you will be sorely disappointed. Despite the name, Barbelith is not a Grant Morrison joint and we are not Grant Morrison people.

Now, as I touched on in a previous post, you are pretty new here. You joined in September and at the time of writing you have 16 posts to your name. That's a good thing, we like new people and wish there were more of them. However I find it pretty telling that this is the first Temple thread you've really contributed much to. Not any of the juicy and inviting threads on magical practice on the front page--not the thread on sigil magic, not the thread on quantum theory, not the thread about people's daily practices--this one. I'm getting the very distinct impression of someone who's more interested in telling everyone else how they ought to be doing things than in actually contributing anything to the board. If you want to help shape the community that's great, but you don't do that by decending from on high and giving us all what-for because the Temple isn't Invisible Ink.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
09:20 / 21.11.07
Is it just my own blinkers, or do too many of the chaos magicians I've seen writing on this board generally stand on the shoulders of giants only to piss down on their skulls?

It's like when Wolfangel above really does see no contradiction in writing "I've practiced a, b, c and d" and then a little later: "Never been a part of a tradition and never will be".

So, the people that wrote all those books, who did all those workshops, rituals, sessions etc, where they also not part of any tradition? Because if they were, well, so are you, dude.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
10:53 / 21.11.07
Is it just my own blinkers, or do too many of the chaos magicians I've seen writing on this board generally stand on the shoulders of giants only to piss down on their skulls?

Well, I think there's a potentially interesting discussion there concerning what constitutes "being part of a tradition" - perhaps in terms of varying degrees of being informed by a particular set of doctrines underpinning a practice in general to merely taking up a practice temporarily and not being overly concerned with its underlying context - and some exponents of Chaos Magic (i'm thinking Pete Carroll's early writings in particular) have opined that all practices are at root, similar, and that cultural/historical context and the beliefs that shape and surround those practices don't actually matter that much, if at all. From this p.o.v. then, it doesn't so much matter what you believe and what theoretical perspectives you consciously hold as valid, but more that you actually do something and appear to obtain commensurate "results" from that doing.

Anyhow, that's not so much a discussion for this present thread. However, suffice to say that it's not a perspective that everyone agrees with (even within CM discourse) and to present it in terms of a stark traditional wisdom versus gnosis wisdom scenario seems to me to be a little too simplistic - and hence not surprisingly, raised some hackles. Furthermore, in the context of poster behaviour, giving participants an either-or choice of positionality apropos of an argument doesn't seem to be that productive - particularly if there's a subtext of traditional wisdom = "hardening of orthodoxies" (= stagnation) vs Personal Gnosis - the Invisibles, Chaos Magic (=innovation).
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:29 / 21.11.07
I find this "hardening of the orthodoxies" stuff more than a bit odd to be honest. The idea that all of these young up-coming voices of the future are being stifled by the old wave of occult traditionalists on barbelith who are trying to enforce their rigid orthodox views of how magic should be practiced. That seems a very bizarrely skewed reading of the barbelith demograph from where I'm sitting. Do we actually even have any orthodox voices like that posting on here? Any real hardcore orthodox types from any one particular tradition? They exist - do they ever exist - but I'm not aware that anybody like that actually posts vocally here.

I am committed to a pantheon. I love them like family. But I am not really a part of any formal "tradition", and I am most certainly not a representative of the orthodoxy of any such formal tradition. That's just ludicrous because it's quite the opposite really. I'm a total heretic and pariah, as far as your orthodox traditionalists are concerned. What I do would never be recognised in a million years by most of your orthodox types within the various traditions related to my pantheon. Every time I write anything about my practices I am stepping directly into the firing line of people who genuinely and passionately believe that I cannot possibly know anything at all about what I am discussing because I have not received initiation A in House B of tradition C, or equivalent. I try my best to be as respectful as I can when I'm around people who have much invested in traditional structures and orthodox forms, but I also need to be true to the reality of my experiences, and this means that my position on a lot of things is frankly pretty fucking unpopular to say the least in some quarters.

My practice is actually quite heavily informed by chaos magic, in the sense that it is an instinctive shamanism that emphasises creative expression and direct personal revelation. Nothing I do comes from a book or from an instructor or from a body of traditional lore - it emerges directly from an intense and committed personal practice. That's what I got out of chaos magic, and I took that and ran with it in my own direction.

I've spent a lot of time over the past few years - on barbelith and elsewhere - challenging and critiquing what I see as the received dogmas of "Chaos Magic™", which I see mostly as a weird product of the internet. It's like chaos magic seemed to solidify into a "tradition" itself during the late 90s, in the same way that "Wicca" and "Thelema" are perceived as traditions - which I think sort of misses the point. It won't take more than a google search to come up with a fairly accurate picture of what a chaos magician is supposed to do and believe, the practices they get up to and the perspectives they adhere to. People do seem to buy into this, almost like they are purchasing a costume and all of its accessories from a costume shop. I think it is important to resist and question this sort of phenomena when it seems to be happening.

There's aspects of chaos magic that I love to bits, for instance, the emphasis on one's own personal experience of magic being more valid than the received dogma of tradition. But there's also aspects of this received idea of what Chaos Magic™ should entail that my own personal experiences of magical practice have shown to be problematic or not particularly useful, and which I've rejected. The way I see it, this commitment to challenging and critiquing practices and perspectives in the light of your own experiences is the real jewel of chaos magic, not the freedom to come up with endless variations on the sigil method or the freedom to work with the tellytubbies at the four quarters rather than the Archangels. If I challenge or question something that somebody posts on here, it is not because I am some bastion of orthodoxy trying to keep the kids down and stifle their crazy ways, it is because my personal experiences of a thing have led me to form opinions that might well differ from the established ideas that often seem to inform some of the assumptions that people bring with them to the practice of magic.

If someone tells me that, for instance, IXAT is the god of taxis and can be called on to make cars stop for you, I will generally want to interrogate that and make sure it's actually coming from someone's living experience of working with spirits in the urban environment, and not just something cribbed directly out of that issue of the Invisibles and taken on board wholesale just cos it sounds cool. If someone is talking about magic, and something in what they are saying doesn't ring true to me, doesn't sound like it's based on experiences from their own living practice, or comes across more like an unexamined idea parroted from a secondary source with no intervening thought or personal experimentation feeding into it - then I'll generally respond from a critical standpoint in order to create a dialogue around the problematic area in which alternative perspectives are raised and considered. If this sort of constructive dialogue doesn't take place among practitioners, then we are all just patting each other on the back and congratulating ourselves for constructing a safe space in which our ever more elaborate fantasy lives can flourish. Plenty of places on the internet for that sort of thing. Barbelith Temple is a bit different, which probably has a lot to do with how the Temple is situated in the wider context of the rest of Barbelith, and is not just an occult forum on its own. I like that quality that the Temple has. I think it's really valuable, and that's why I like to post here rather than on the many other occult forums on the internet.

I'm a bit irritated by the accusation that regular long-term Barbelith posters, presumably including myself, are engaged in some nefarious process of stifling all of the young and upcoming voices trying to break through. Fuck off. I'm 32. I've just started getting some of my writing on magic into print myself. I don't currently have any sort of publisher interest in what I'm doing at all. I spend huge amounts of my time challenging what I feel are problematic perspectives on magic and attempting to convey something of my own experiences, and my reflections on those experiences, in a way that others will hopefully find useful and empowering. Nobody pays me to do this. I'm not the fucking spokesman for any sort of orthodoxy or tradition. Everything I write about magic is simply an expression of my own personal and idiosyncratic understanding of "The Mysteries" gleaned from my decade of practice and experimentation in these areas. If you have a problem with any of that, sit down and write your own book. Nobody is stopping you. If you strongly disagree with anything I happen to post on barbelith, make a convincing argument to the contrary. Nobody is stopping you.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:41 / 21.11.07
Any real hardcore orthodox types from any one particular tradition?

Dunno about anyone else, but most people in the ultra-orthodox hard core of my trad would dearly love to see people like me thrown into a peat bog...
 
 
*
14:58 / 21.11.07
Do we actually even have any orthodox voices like that posting on here?

Well, there was that one "My Golden Dawn is the REAL Golden Dawn" jackass. Didn't we ban him?
 
 
darth daddy
15:26 / 21.11.07
Fair enough. As a new member, I am not so arrogant to believe that the board should revolve around my biases. On the other hand, I was responding to this thread concerning:

* What do we expect in Temple in terms of avoiding language and behavior that is oppressive to particular groups of people? How does that interact with Received Lore (RL)/Unverifiable Personal Gnosis (UPG) that just happens to assert that, say, X Group is inferior because they do/don't do/can't do/shouldn't do Y Practice?
 
 
*
16:13 / 21.11.07
Okay. How does that relate? What are your current thoughts about that?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
16:34 / 21.11.07
I think that any sort of channeled or received material that may emerge out of your practice needs to be looked at with a critical eye and not just taken on board wholesale - and especially if it is contentious material along the lines of "Group X is inferior". How can you be certain what is the voice of the spirits (or whatever), what is your overactive imagination, and what is something inbetween that may well have its source in something beyond your active fantasy life but has all the same been filtered through and influenced by the lens of your own personality, prejudices, hopes and fears. You can't possibly know the answer to that question for certain, so it is imperative to question and unpack any such material as it arises. If you have received a message that deity X prefers this sort of alcoholic beverage in preference to that one, or that location A is a better place for doing practice C than location B, then that's one thing. If you have received a message that deity X has chosen you to be holy executioner of offending ethnic group A, then it's quite another. But any responsible magician should be applying a critical perspective to any information that they receive in this manner. There is always the possibility that you might actually be completely mad, and the magician who doesn't factor that into the equation on a regular basis, even as an outside chance, is on a slippery slope to a bad place.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:42 / 21.11.07
We're using the term received lore here to indicate the reverse of unverifiable personal gnosis, ie. "that lore which is generally accepted as valid or worthy within the mainstream of a tradition."

Point still stands, of course. You get a bit of that sort of thing on the more distressing fringes of NT worship: lovingly detailed "visions" where the supposed visionary is visited by Odin/Baldr/Heimdall/all of the above and told how the pantheon really really want all the non-whites, gays, and uppity women kicked out of heathenry. It's less common than you might expect, due to the hard core having ishoos with direct deity contact, but every now and again it does turn up.
 
 
darth daddy
17:53 / 21.11.07
All religious and occult tradition is based on someone's unverified personal gnosis. Paul at Tarsus, Crowley's Aiwass encounter, Joseph Smith of the Mormons, Mohammed, Mary Baker Eddy etc... The genius, in my opinion, of the concepts of chaos magick is how to deal with someone else's gnosis. Like scientific theory, the value in a religious tradition is whether the religious experience can be reliably recreated by following the practices and tenets of the tradition. Either it works for you, or it doesn't. I do not advocate "pissing" on religious traditions, on the other hand, I do not accept on face value the traditional dogma by any religious figure just because the figure is respected by bunches of people for a lot of years.

I have repeatedly been told in response to my professed admiration for the Voudon Gnostic Workbook that it is "made up" and does not follow traditional voudon practices. Thats ok. However, doing some of the exercises in this book has accelerated aspects of what I define as tantric meditation.

I just think it is too easy to dismiss a practice because it does not comport with received lore. Except, of course, that otherkin nonsense.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:02 / 21.11.07
I do not advocate "pissing" on religious traditions, on the other hand, I do not accept on face value the traditional dogma by any religious figure just because the figure is respected by bunches of people for a lot of years.


But is anyone here saying you have to do that though? I've never seen any regular poster in the Temple demand that traditional dogma must be taken at face value. Being respectful of other people's traditions doesn't mean taking them at face value.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
18:17 / 21.11.07
You caught me, I can't stand the restriction against hate speech. Come on...

Simply citing a tantric text from the 14th century as a source does not make it authoritative...

Hate to admit it but you are right that I may be creating a straw man argument...

It was the suggestion that a test regarding "falacious arguments" and moderators "skillfully" guiding discussion in a predetermined manner that got my goat.


Well I don't recall the 'skillful guidance' part, but as for the fallacious arguements test, did you open the link I posted and consider what it contained? If you did, you would have noted that the very first fallacious arguement listed is 'attacking the person, instead of attacking the arguement' which could also be called hate speech. It also lists 'snobbery that very old (or very young) arguments are superior' such as could be seen by citing a tantric text from the 14th century. Another one it lists is 'attacking an exaggerated or caricatured version of your opponent's position.' which is also known as a straw man.

It's a good list. I'm not asking you to agree with it (though there seems good reason to think that you do) or agree with it in full, I'm just asking that you be aware of it. I'm not asking that by taking a test on what Temple standards are, new posters agree with those standards, but I am asking that they at least be aware of them.
 
 
darth daddy
18:18 / 21.11.07
Not Nolte wrote:

Is it just my own blinkers, or do too many of the chaos magicians I've seen writing on this board generally stand on the shoulders of giants only to piss down on their skulls?
 
 
*
18:28 / 21.11.07
Test example: The Zohar, the core text of the Kabbalah, claims that non-Jews and Jews have fundamentally different souls. The Zohar says that part of the soul of a non-Jew emanates from the Qlippoth, if I understand correctly. Further, observant Jews may gain additional aspects of soul that are inaccessible to both non-Jews and non-observing Jews, and can lose these transitory parts of their souls when they cease to observe the mitzvot. How do we expect someone who follows the Zohar as part of their religious and magical practice to discuss their practice in the Temple?

On preview: This is not a thread about the merits, or otherwise, of chaos magic. If you want to have an argument about that, go do it somewhere else.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
18:30 / 21.11.07
I just think it is too easy to dismiss a practice because it does not comport with received lore. Except, of course, that otherkin nonsense.

Sorry, why is that otherkin 'nonsense' is easy to dismiss? Why are its practitioners any different from any other, to the point where their practice becomes easy to dismiss? Granted, there are no doubt many 'kin who do little more than grasp the basics, have one or two experiences, and decide the practice is real and that they're practitioners - but then, we could say the same of Wicca, or Chaos magic, and so on. Just like these other practices, there are a few who actually take it much further and dedicate themselves to their practice, who explore it as far as they can, and persist with it because it isn't (subjectively) nonsense.

Reply goes here.
 
 
EmberLeo
19:31 / 21.11.07
All religious and occult tradition is based on someone's unverified personal gnosis.

Er, not exactly, no. It's arguable that most religions do start there (though quite a few simply spur off of others for political reasons that have nothing to do with spiritual gnosis of any kind). That said, for it to bloom into a religion, the doctrine pretty much always goes through Unverified Shared Gnosis and Verified Shared Gnosis on it's way to becoming Lore. If it doesn't get that far, it doesn't last many generations, it never grows from a small, personal cult to a larger religion.

I do consider myself part of a couple different traditions, and I'm not particularly inclined to Solitary work. Nevertheless, the groups I am in are heavily contested by the larger community, so I don't think I count as orthodox. And honestly, that's important to note - not for me personally, but that being part of a tradition, even initated, voluntarily, etc. does not imply that you believe it's the One True Way, or that personal experience is less valuable than the dictates of your traditions.
-------------------
Um... are we still discussing what the temple ettiquette may be, or are we running around several tangents? I can't quite tell...

I would like to present, for consideration, the practices of another board I frequent - Brunchma. The board is built up around the fandom of a defunct humor website, but the community has grown far past that common sense of humor.

One of the forums is called "Wax Intellectual" and is dedicated to "Religion, politics, and other things that make that weird vein pop up on your forehead." and they have guidelines and resources from which we might wish to Vike. Mind you, it is very obvious that Wax I's guidelines are not applicable to just the Temple wholesale. But the best part of Viking is that you get to take things apart and just use the bits that suit your needs.

--Ember--
 
 
EvskiG
20:04 / 21.11.07
It's a bit of a digression, so I'll just note that I don't believe there's any Jewish orthodoxy on the subject of the soul, and that (personally) I've never heard that the soul of a non-Jew emanates, in part or as a whole, from the Qlippoth.

If people want to discuss those issues -- or concepts of "supplemental souls" like the Neshama Yesira and the Neshama Kedosha -- we can hit 'em in another topic.
 
  

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