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Pyrite

 
  

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Papess
23:49 / 04.10.07
I think I hear the kettle.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:57 / 05.10.07
There is no excuse to steal. Magicians should not consider themselves above the law. That is unhealthy behaviour. Period.

Without wishing to defend kowalski's apparently isolated, and therefore really quite minor act of occult kleptomania, I find the above sentiment quite shocking, and in the context really a bit absurd. Had magicians not considered themselves above the law with regard to, I don't know, homosexual relations, drug use and so on in the past then I'm guessing that what would exist these days in terms of magical practice, if it existed at all, would be very different. And this is leaving aside the fact that practising magic in itself used to be something that got one burned at the stake, quite legally.

I'm not quite sure when it stopped being a criminal offence, but it's my understanding that it was relatively recently, in the last hundred years or so?

It's a poor thing to steal from anybody of course, and I certainly wouldn't want to encourage that sort of behaviour, but all this stuff about the rule of law, social mores etc seems odd coming from people who are presumably happy enough to summon up the Great God Pan or whoever, when these rituals, while legal these days, might still be considered highly transgressive acts.
 
 
Papess
01:06 / 05.10.07
Are you comparing homosexuality with stealing, Grandma?
 
 
*
01:40 / 05.10.07
Shoplifting a rock because "As far as I can tell, the thing asked me to take it" isn't so much putting yourself above the law as putting your interpretation of the whims of a hunk of mineral above the law. If I were in a shop and a human stranger brushed by me and whispered "Psst, buddy, go lift $4 from the till," and for some reason I obeyed, it's not really an indication that I am more free, more independent, or stronger of will than others—it's an indication that I am more ready to bend to the odd, unjustified suggestions of random strangers than others. I don't think homosexuality or drug use has anything to do with it. But several people have tried to point out that it's a little odd to invest one's interpretation of the whim of a hunk of mineral with greater authority than the traditions of one's culture or the society one lives in, even if the traditions of one's culture/society aren't always that hot.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
02:10 / 05.10.07
Are you comparing homosexuality with stealing, Grandma?

Only in the sense that homosexual sex was against the law in (horrible way of putting it, but still) the Western world up until recently, and in the context of the statement that 'magicians should never consider themselves above the law'. Drug use, meanwhile, remains largely illegal, but nevertheless a part of people's magical practices, as far as I know.

I do think kowalski should not have stolen the rock, I hope I made that pretty clear, but on the other hand, unless he makes a habit of doing this kind of thing (the tone of his post suggests not, in so far as he's not boasting about other mineral-related jobs he's pulled off) and the rock itself wasn't terribly expensive, it doesn't seem like the end of the world.

As to whether it's part of a healthy magical practice I'm not in a position to say, either way; it was just the (quoted) idea that the magician should never break the law which stuck in my throat, a little.
 
 
Unconditional Love
02:10 / 05.10.07
The thing about transgressive acts is the buzz that you get from performing them.

In the past when i used to steal for example i would gradually increase the worth of what i stole or the difficulty or the sheer brashness of the act to increase this buzz. I wasn't aware of it at the time but with hindsight i can see that i needed to keep that buzz alive.

I have read one author i forget the name whom compared transgressive acts to kundalini, i do not think i would go with that at all. While the buzz may be a very physical sensation, a kind of hyper stimulation as you perform the act which slowly levels out until you make the realisation that you have succeeded in the act so it peaks again.

Its a odd feeling, but its also a feeling that a group of people can share if memory serves me correctly, which is an experience i have had when people describe certain psychedelic drug stories, a common knowing and a re experience of some of the buzz.

The part that worries me is the need to up the transgressive act, i found with all the transgressive acts i have ever been involved with, that over a period of time one activity, unless it becomes more challenging loses its buzz, its level of pleasurable feedback.

The whole transgression thing seems to me like a fast way to become desensitised to just actually living. I think its a lot more difficult to live and learn to appreciate the beauty and pleasure when life moves at a pace without conscious over stimulation of the mind or senses.

Whether magical acts are transgressive in and of themselves is very arguable, from what i can see a majority of magical acts have there roots in religious precepts of one kind of another or appear as very similar structures with a changing of content. The different modes of magical expression in a sense tend to hijack orthodox method.

Drug taking and homosexuality are common to certain forms of magical/spiritual expression as is to a degree murder within the context of history, at one point or another either as inter group relations one group has legitimised actions against or with another group through the use of spiritual precepts.

I do not think a spiritual dimension is needed to legitimise so called transgressive acts because they do not seem to me to warrant the use of the term transgressive, transgressive implies a certain kind of base morality, that is a truism in a cultural climate with one dominating cultural environment but is not so the case in the world i inhabit today. A collision of differing value structures seem to exist from a wide range of differing cultures.

So while homosexuality or drug taking maybe transgressive for some from a certain cultural view point for others it is the baseline value of the culture they belong too.

But there does seem to be a common value to for example acts like murder or theft, but as Ember Leo pointed out even they can become tokens of cultural acceptance and trust within certain communities.

The idea of transgression is perhaps a relative one to cultural context.
 
 
Unconditional Love
02:16 / 05.10.07
Cross post with Bob Cleaver.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:47 / 05.10.07
Yeah, Tuna Ghost, you're right. That was a snarky and unhelpful post, and I apologise to the other forum users (except kowalski).

To unpack a little: I see a tendency amongst certain of the magically/spiritually inclined to parse any desire to own an object as "this object is speaking to me; therefore it is magically/spiritually significant; therefore I must have it." I've seen people spend money earmarked for essentials on crappy mass-produced wizard or fairy statuettes from the Noo Age shop "because it spoke to me," steal items from aquaintances "because [X] wanted me to take it home," or just accumulate huge piles of unnecessary clutter in their living spaces because each item "spoke to them." Of course these fabulously important spiritual artifacts often play no further part in the person's life other than collecting dust on a shelf; they are not used ritually, interacted with, or passed on to another. This is not healthy.

I'm subject to the same compulsions, of course. I kind of have a system for dealing with them. First I ask if there's a possibility of sitting with the compulsion for a bit and coming back to the shop later. If an item is supposed to go to you it won't be snapped up meanwhile.

If there's a limited window of opportunity to purchase the item--say I'm in another town for the day and will be going home soon--then it comes down to the cost of the piece, the likelyhood of another similar item becoming available from another source, and if I've been looking for that particular item for a while.

I probably wouldn't nick it unless I had a specific beef with the owner.
 
 
Quantum
11:48 / 05.10.07
Funnily enough, after reading this thread I was in a shop and an Xbox sent me a strong psychic impression that it was my cyberfamiliar. I didn't have any cash, but I couldn't leave my soul mate behind, could I? Needless to say, I pocketed my little friend and we now have a loving and fulfilling relationship with Lara Croft, my totem goddess.
Can anyone tell me the magical properties of this particular piece of consumer electronics?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:56 / 05.10.07
The power of lateness to parties?
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:27 / 05.10.07
Can anyone tell me the magical properties of this particular piece of consumer electronics?

It steals time.
 
 
akira
12:36 / 05.10.07
Xbox to Richard Pryor, "Duur, You know I dont like it when you dont play with me Rich".
 
 
kowalski
13:12 / 05.10.07
Now, imagine where we'd be if I hadn't facilitated the stone's exit from the store and then told you all about it? It's certainly enabled a very fascinating and revealing discussion, despite the subject of that discussion having been very much other than what I consciously intended.

It's interesting to watch people continue to get hung up on the issue of ownership. I still have no interest in owning the stone, and it seems likely that I'll be returning it at the next opportunity --- not because I now agree with the moralizing of posters in this thread, but because by my perception the stone or the act or wherever we'd like to assess agency have already accomplished what they were meant to accomplish. Which is to say that the content of my practice has been clarified and now consciously brought together with many of the understandings that govern my work in the social sciences.

I should be getting back to my "life full of problems" stemming from my previously undiagnosed "poor-impulse control," but I do want to say that Ev's done a fantastic job in summarizing the critical issues that are apparent in reading through this thread, issues that really should be pulled out and carried around the block a few times, maybe in other threads where there'll be less incentive to use me as your strawman and whipping boy.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
13:14 / 05.10.07
I used to love Strawman and Whipping-Boy. But they cancelled it after only 11 issues.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:42 / 05.10.07
To be fair to the publishers, the adventures of a crimefighting duo one of whom got hit a lot and the other of whom was extremely flammable made for depressing, not to say harrowing, reading.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
13:55 / 05.10.07
Now, imagine where we'd be if I hadn't facilitated the stone's exit from the store and then told you all about it? It's certainly enabled a very fascinating and revealing discussion

What next, a post from members of the Duke University Lacrosse team asking where Barbelith would be if they hadn't... oh, you get the idea.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:56 / 05.10.07
This is a really shit thread. Can we just let it die.

Kowalski: If you found this thread anywhere near as annoying and unsatisfying as I did, I would suggest making a bit more effort when starting topics. At best, "what are the properties of iron pyrite?" belongs as two lines in the stupid magic questions thread. If you're going to start a thread with so little substance, that also happens to involve something fairly contentious and liable to raise people's ire, like the fairly nonchalant attitude to stealing stuff in your first couple of posts - then expect to be questioned on it. That's what barbelith tends to do.
 
  

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