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Pyrite

 
  

Page: (1)23

 
 
kowalski
20:26 / 01.10.07
The other night I felt compelled to pocket a small spheroid of iron pyrite from a museum gift shop. I've done a little searching for meanings and uses, and found this page slightly interesting, but was wondering if anyone here had any more interesting references or experiences with the mineral (or with sudden, previously unexperienced compulsions to shoplift minor trinkets, for that matter).
 
 
EvskiG
20:29 / 01.10.07
Well, there's the old superstition that if you steal pyrite a ravenous zombie army will visit you in the middle of the night . . .
 
 
Closed for Business Time
20:44 / 01.10.07
Or a ravenous army of shoplifters will visit during lunch, just when you're about to pay for the sarnies and milk.

But on a more serious note, pyrite is the same as Fool's Gold. It's TEH METAL OV DA TR][><7A. No, seriously.
 
 
EmberLeo
01:22 / 02.10.07
I've always been very fond of it.

Um, may I suggest you go back and pay for the object?

--Ember--
 
 
Papess
01:45 / 02.10.07
Go back and pay for it - Good call, Ember.

Stolen objects used in magick have been rumoured to have reverse effects.

For example: if the Pyrite is supposed to attract money, you just might be losing a whole lot of funds sometime soon.

Just a rumour though, YMMV.
 
 
kowalski
03:56 / 02.10.07
That's obviously occurred to me. On the other hand, I took it without conscious personal interest, and any use by me is likely to be passive, ie. hardly actual use at all. As far as I can tell, the thing asked me to take it, and I obliged. Unless I get a strong sign different, I'll likely hold onto it until I get a similarly baseless impulse to part with it.
 
 
*
04:44 / 02.10.07
Rocks are not known for their understanding of human conventions like currency, and in my experience they don't much like gift shops and are happy to leave as expediently as possible. I am, however, always wary of unverifiable personal gnosis that tells me to do something that seems a) not very pointful, b) likely to result in some small personal gain for myself, that c) nonetheless does not outweigh the potential negative consequences. I'd have responded with "Okay, but in my world we exchange tokens in places like this; mind if I indulge in this quaint human custom before we leave?"
 
 
Katherine
07:50 / 02.10.07
the thing asked me to take it, and I obliged.

That's just a wonderful defence should you have been caught.

Seriously though I would go back and pay for it, by all means keep it but pay for it. For all you know it could have been the universe checking you out to see what you would do or as said above rocks don't necessarily understand our customs but you do know and probably understand them so I personally think your thinking that I quoted above is highly flawed.
 
 
EmberLeo
09:32 / 02.10.07
To be... hmm, fair, I suppose...

I have often gotten the "YOU MUST OWN ME NOW!" ping from various objects. But I have always processed them as things I needed to buy, not things I needed to take.

I have, once or twice, put something in my pocket because I needed more hands, and then forgotten before leaving the store. When I returned, embarassed to realize I'd walked out with something without paying, and explained that I had forgotten it was in my pocket when I left, and here, how much do I owe you, I have never been scolded or treated at all negatively by a shopkeeper - it's not that unusual for a distracted person to lose track like that.

So I'd say your best bet is to go ahead and go back, explain that you realized when you got home that you still had the thing in your pocket, and ask how much you owe them.

Thereafter, you can ask the talkative rock what it thinks it should be used for, such that it wanted so badly to go with you in particular. You heard it cry to go with you - maybe you can hear its input in other areas as well?

--Ember--
 
 
Papess
09:57 / 02.10.07
I always get this sense from store owners, that they want me to pay for the items I take from their store.

I am just weird that way, though.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:58 / 02.10.07
Yeah. Or alternatively, you could just be constructing a flimsy psuedo-magical justification for a sudden compulsive desire to steal, and thereby rationalising it to yourself and assuaging any feelings of guilt you might have, rather than looking closely at whatever internal troubles may be causing you to pilfer bits of rock from small local businesses...
 
 
EvskiG
13:33 / 02.10.07
Bingo.
 
 
Papess
14:00 / 02.10.07
Yes, what GL said, most definately.

Even if the rock did call out to you, there was no excuse to steal it. Worse for you, is that you are making justifications for your own poor behaviour and blaming the bloody rock for it. It's a bit of your character that you may want to look at with greater detail if you really wish to practice magick in a healthy way.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:46 / 02.10.07
I agree with the comments around 'bingo' I discovered why i used to steal and what caused it some time ago, the same dead man that caused alot of other stuff in my life. (he is quite literally dead now hopefully, since no one can find him, lucky for him) he stole from me when i was five, funnily enough an old flint working tool, probably stone age that i had discovered in a quary while fossil hunting with my father.

This pose's another question for me around the use of p2p networks. I grew up with alot of the cyberpunk influences and computers in general zx81 vic20s an onwards etc. One of the hackers ethics was information wants to be free. P2p seemed like the idea of computersed sharing of information ie setting if free, that in it self is in direct odds with a society based on capital and trade through the medium of money.

Now essentially anybody can see these days from computer use that things that were once given a physical tangible form music, films, books, programs no longer need any physical medium to exist accept computers and the network of digital memory. Now that hackers ethic Information wants to be free. I still have a memory of the hacker as a free thinking intellectual.

Also i grew up in an environment where taping music never killed it as was warned and games and programs were always being traded as copies at school and beyond.

I would be interested to know what the reaction is too a culture where people share what they have bought with others, whether it be at the level of a personal group or a global network. I personally see that as a good thing, or should i be thinking that i must proclaim personal original ownership as the right way of doing things.

I do not advocate theft, but i do advocate sharing. (i realize that it is far more complex than that statement, but the whole area of ownership is a complex one, that often is very straight forward in a spiritual ie ten commandments, context, but not so in the world i live in.)

Another example might be the amount of computers that are estimated to be using so called pirate software in third world countries, is that okay because the countries are poorer? Or is it then the case that we get to look down on those countires with a feeling that we are superior because our software is aquired by honest means.

That seems a similar attitude to missionarys berating a so called primitive culture, because of there lack of understanding a highly spiritual moralistic culture.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
14:57 / 02.10.07
I don't want to be an enabler or whatever, but...I don't agree whole-heartedly that you could have no possible reason for taking something without paying for it.

Personally I have no idea what the mystical story of Pyrite would be, but if you were somehow interacting with, say, a God of Thieves...paying for it might not be what you want to do at all.

For instance, when I was collecting stuff for various projects with Raven, it didn't feel right to go to the store and buy parts I needed. Everything I used was stuff that caught my eye when I was walking around. Most of it was garbage in one form or another. But it was shiny garbage.

Anyway. That's not to say you shouldn't examine why you took it, and I would guess it's very likely that the impulse was one you should take steps to correct. But for me to say, knowing none of the details, that it can't possibly have been the right thing to do...well, I'd feel pretty uncomfortable saying that.
 
 
kowalski
16:15 / 02.10.07
Thanks Red, that's the beginning of the sort of discussion I was looking to have, not a bunch of moralizing about how I shouldn't try to justify theft. I'm smart enough that conventional lines like not using stolen materials, or that this is storytelling to assuage guilt (of which I don't feel any) had already occurred to me. Given that this entire forum is about using fictions to relate to / modify subjective reality, I had expected a little less guilt-tripping than I've received. I guess I should also feel guilty about the extra work I give to city works crews and the enablement I give to transients when I leave piles of coins in various places about the town.

I was far more interested in exploring alternative ways of understanding both this sudden interaction with the rock and the material's possible place in previous magical and religious practice in general (real or literary). I definitely walk the sort of found/ersatz path that Red discusses regarding Raven, so the wandering aspect of the stone interests me, and is the only reason I bothered to discuss its provenance and open myself up to sermons and ridicule.

In coincidence, after the rock came into my possession we had a succession of very sulphurous moon rises, with the yellow lunar disc cloaked behind blankets of invisible clouds.

So enough with the "you shouldn't have done that, go back and pay for it." I won't likely be paying $10 for a stone of no objective value the size of my thumb (although if I did I wouldn't bother to explain anything, I'd just walk in and pay for it). But neither am I likely to hold onto it indefinitely, I can return it to its four-score kindred in the store's basket at my convenience, or pass it along to further adventures as seems most appropriate. So yes, forgive my trespasses in a world where magic is apparently only legitimate if it's bought and paid for, and do tell me if you have any wisdom to share about pyrite, sulphur, or wandering stones generally. Otherwise, rest easy knowing I shan't be hoarding my misbegotten riches, and I'll catch y'all elsewhere.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
16:26 / 02.10.07
whoa, there...I think a lot of the advice on this page is worth considering. these people know what they're talking about, and they're talking about a very real possibility worth considering. any magicky person - or non magicky person - ought to think it's always worth examining their own actions.

describing yourself as "too smart" to fall into a trap is a pretty good sign that you already have, I feel...

anyway, the Fool's Gold line mentioned above is a good one, go down that, I'd say.
 
 
EvskiG
16:43 / 02.10.07
Dude, for some reason you felt compelled to share that you stole a minor, relatively inexpensive item that you didn't need, on a whim. Instead of having people congratulate you for your devil-may-care coolness, they pointed out that this wasn't necessarily admirable conduct. Deal with it.

Or how's this: you took the stone looking for magical insight, and instead of the Elixir of Life and the Medicine of Metals you ended up with Fool's Gold.
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:10 / 02.10.07
I will explain it from experience - when i was 8 my first d&d set called out to me as did a stream of lead minatures, before that it was all sorts of sweets, magazines and eventually stereos and jewellery were crying out to me speaking to me of there worth and value. Eventually after many years a police officer conviced me that i shouldnt listen to the crys of objects (maybe he was a secret buddhist teaching me about attachments, but i very much doubt it or was it me teaching merchants about attachments.Joke not justification) Anyway we currently live in a society that obeys these rules. (whether i agree with the politics of them or not).

There have been lots of discussions on barbelith about magical ethics which is where alot of this is coming from.
I have not personally stolen for years nor would i unless forced to as an act of survival and then i would examine all other oppertunities for aquisition before finding that act as my last recourse.

The idea that stealing can be legitimised through magic flies in the face of alot of peoples magical ethics.

I personally think the idea of ownership is up for debate as is a community that shares and the very simplistic views on morality presented by spirtual systems as strict definate rules that do not make judgements based on a case by case presentation of evidence.

The idea of inflexible ethical/moral attitudes bothers me as it isnt in line with a modern legal system and it concerns me that the same inflexibility can be used to justify an act as it can be to warrant punishment for that action. It seems to me that many spiritual systems remove that focus of individual treatment and use blanket statements to imply sinner or heretic. I think such sweeping judgements are at odds with a complex pluralistic community where many differing segments hold remarkably differing view points.
 
 
electric monk
17:48 / 02.10.07
I think it's pretty safe to say, tho, that one of the ways we all, magicians and non-magicians alike, should respect and care for our complex pluralistic community is to not steal things from each other. I don't think that's moralizing or sermonizing or making a blanket statement. That's just a fact of living in a community and being a contributor to it.

Given that this entire forum is about using fictions to relate to / modify subjective reality, I had expected a little less guilt-tripping than I've received.

I'm not sure what you're on about with this. Could you clarify?
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:16 / 02.10.07
I want to know something thou monk are you going to go on to imply that a group of people that share a movie over a network with there friends in a community are stealing.

You see i think its easy to make that decision of theft when theres a shop and somebody taking without paying.

Is it still theft when its a consensus to share things, because if you think it is i will argue with you because i think your wrong. Plain and simple wrong. so please be specific in what you are saying is theft. exactly what is theft and what isnt in what i have said.
 
 
illmatic
18:23 / 02.10.07
Given that this entire forum is about using fictions to relate to / modify subjective reality

Yeah, I'm sure Grant Morrison would've approved of you taking it. It's just like something King Mob would do!

Anyway ... if magic is on some level about challenging yourself, if magic is on some level about doing things we find a bit difficult, persisting, asking tough questions, if it's something else than spinning self-serving narratives out of relatively random events...how has any of this happened in what you done? I'm not inside your head but it smacks of inconsequential bollocks to me. A magical tool is in a sense worth what you pay for it. That includes financial outlay, creativity applied to it's form and functions and persistence in its use and building a relationship with it. If it's something you nicked on a whim, then you'll probably dispose of it just as easily. There's a whole riff in Crowley somewhere about "buying a black cock without haggling" (Magick & Theory Practice maybe?) - that is being willing to pay the price for your experiences.

Ask yourself this: What is the most interesting, creative and challenging thing I could do with the rock, bearing in mind how I got it? For instance, as a challenge to your conditioning, you could go back, ask to see the manager, go into their office, confess you stole it and give him three times what it's worth. You could then use it as an ingredient in a magical tool of your choice, after making a study of it's geological origins, history of human use and correspondences.

Or.... you could decide we all a bunch of moralising wankers because we told you something you didn't like, fuck off over to kaos23.net where someone will high five you and say "DuDE! I totally stole Pokemon cards and now they appear to me on the astral!" for a bit, before you then put the rock in your chest of drawers and forget about it. Choice is yours.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
18:30 / 02.10.07
That's just a fact of living in a community and being a contributor to it.

from the point of view that we (humans) are all living in a society and benefiting thereby (presumably, since we're all on the internet here) - then yeah, it's pretty commonly accepted that stealing is bad.

I stand by the idea that some traditions, though probably not many, may have little or nothing to do with living in a community or sharing its values. I suppose it may be understood that, specifically here at Barbelith, we don't support or wish to discuss traditions which seem unethical, but I don't agree with acting as though we know for sure that they can't/don't exist or that there couldn't have been some magical reason for someone to steal something.

exactly what is theft and what isnt in what i have said.

not sure if this helps, but I think e.monk is talking to kowalski.
 
 
electric monk
18:52 / 02.10.07
I want to know something thou monk are you going to go on to imply that a group of people that share a movie over a network with there friends in a community are stealing.

No, because I think this would be the wrong thread for that. All I'm seeking to comment on, ultimately, is kowalski pocketing a piece of pyrite. You seemed, to me, to be supporting his actions on a questionable basis. But perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying.

You see i think its easy to make that decision of theft when theres a shop and somebody taking without paying.

On this, we agree.

Is it still theft when its a consensus to share things, because if you think it is i will argue with you because i think your wrong. Plain and simple wrong. so please be specific in what you are saying is theft. exactly what is theft and what isnt in what i have said.

If you're talking about a commune where everyone has agreed to share everything, no it's not stealing. I'm talking about the current configuration of communities as exemplified by towns and cities, etc. I was not referring to P2P networks or communes or anything of that sort. In fact, I think the whole P2P issue is ill-suited for this thread, but if you want to start or bump a thread on those issues, please do so.

I will tell you honestly that I'm not big on the phrase, "Information wants to be free," but am ill-equipped to enter into an extensive discussion on it at this time.
 
 
EmberLeo
18:53 / 02.10.07
So yes, forgive my trespasses in a world where magic is apparently only legitimate if it's bought and paid for

It's not the money, it's the transaction.

It is honesty, not income, that I look for in true magic.

I actually do have a fair bit of input on this topic, and I hesitate to share it with one whose judgement I find so questionable.

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:50 / 02.10.07
Id like to start a thread on some of the wider issues, especially how some spiritual systems moralize out of sinc with the current legal system, which seems to me to offer far greater freedoms than the majority of spiritual systems that immediately come to mind.

Also the value of information in a society that is changing so rapidly with relation to information and ideas like free culture.

You see i grew up in a community that was reltively poor and we shared things between us that others didnt have and we would swop things for other things. Tapeing of the radio or a mates cassette was the norm in the community i lived in.

Now having lived just alittle while i have met other people whom grew up having everything bought for them and then went on to that same process for themselves.

I wonder if its not a case of very different backgrounds with different understanding. So for example i will give without expecting to be paid knowing that it will be returned in some way, usually in the form of luck. I know that sounds irrational but it still seems to work.

A surprise to me is the amount of issues this thread raises for me.
 
 
Olulabelle
20:03 / 02.10.07
So yes, forgive my trespasses in a world where magic is apparently only legitimate if it's bought and paid for

Kowlaski, you say in your summary, why did I take a ball of the stuff without paying for it? and I think that's what people have been trying to answer - in particular I thought what Roy said was relevant:

There's a whole riff in Crowley somewhere about "buying a black cock without haggling" (Magick & Theory Practice maybe?) - that is being willing to pay the price for your experiences. (Roy)

You see you didn't pay at all for your pyrite, you didn't pay cash money, but you didn't pay in experience or effort either.

And the thing is, you didn't just find your piece of pyrite. You found it in a shop and the deal with shops is, you have to pay for the things in them.

If you need a thing not in a shop you have to pay in other ways. When I needed crow feathers or better still a crow I looked for over a year. I couldn't find a single crow feather even though I hung out under rookerys, I hunted through the parks, in Spring, in the Autumn, I pulled my car over every time I saw a dead bird. I really thought I'd never find what I needed. And then suddenly I must have reached the point where I'd paid in time spent looking, because suddenly there were feathers everywhere in places during seasons where there weren't any before and eventually, one day a just-dead beautiful huge young crow on the path right in front of me.

So I paid for him with my time. Some things you pay money for, like books, or maybe you barter; rocks for home-made incense or whatever you're good at. Or you pay in experience and time like I did. In effort.

But you did none of those things and so I don't think the pyrite can be anything magical at all for you. Because all it is a stolen item - because you did nothing in order to get it then I don't see how it can mean anything for you. You didn't even want it, you just took it. So that's all it is. It's just a nicked bit of rock and there's not a great deal magical about that.
 
 
grant
20:08 / 02.10.07
There *is* a tradition of ritual theft in a few societies (note 6 there talks about the Dogon and the Scots, and I've heard about similar things in Lesotho), but I think this is almost always tied in with fear & a chase - not slipping a trinket in a pocket, but taking a cow or something from a neighboring group and running away with the former owner(s) hot on your heels. Paying for it, as Olulabelle says, in sweat and trembling and adrenaline and effort.

Decidedly unwise with yer local magic shop, especially if you're likely to be a regular customer.

Then again, all I know about pyrite is bad luck and deception.
 
 
EmberLeo
20:50 / 02.10.07
I was told a story of an initiatory Societe within the context of Orixa worship, that requires initiates of a particular Orixa to go to a marketplace and steal 1 or 3 things. The initiator follows behind to be sure they do it. Unbeknownst to them, the initiator also follows behind to see what they took and pay for it. The fellow who told me the story was an initiate from a different, but similar trad, and not under that power - so I have some reason to believe him, but cannot be sure.

I've also heard other stories of validity I doubt even more, that one or more tribes of Gypsies (I would say "Romany" but I once had a Gypsy fellow tell me he'd rather be called a "Gypsy" than be mistaken for the wrong tribe - a sentiment I hear mirrored by tribal peoples in North America and elsewhere.) have it in their mythos that one of their kind stole the last nail that would have gone through Jesus' heart when he was crucified, thereby gaining God's blessing to steal from the ungodly, which may be interpreted as all non-Christians, or all non-Gypsies. However, I have always percieved - if it's even true - as being justification. And besides, a nail through the heart would have been merciful, killing Jesus faster, just as nails in His wrists and a stabbing wound were a mercy compared to those who were tied up with rope and left to die much more slowly.

So for example i will give without expecting to be paid knowing that it will be returned in some way, usually in the form of luck. I know that sounds irrational but it still seems to work.

Um, My point of confusion is that I don't know any culture that doesn't percieve gift giving, barter, and voluntary sharing to be an acceptable form of exchange and support. Most folks I know, or have ever heard of, for that matter, don't have an issue with stealing because it involves things changing hands without involving money, but because it involves things changing hands without involving consent.

So the examples you keep bringing up don't even register as applicable to me, and I'm confused as to why you consider them related.

As for alternative morality - in my "tradition" (Heathenry/Vanatru) it's only about the law to the extent that you are responsible for the consequences of your choices, and that does include dealing with legal consequences. But according to Heathenry, as far as I understand it, if you find the legal consequences acceptable, go ahead and break the law. If you think killing this guy who threatened your friend is worth the jail time, then make your choice and then follow through with the reparations. That's a very different angle than asserting that whatever the Law says is Morally Right, or that it's automatically morally wrong to break the law. But it holds no particular appreciation for a person who breaks the frith and then expects to not be held accountable, or worse, to be praised for it.

--Ember--
 
 
Char Aina
20:54 / 02.10.07
Personally I believe some theft is justified despite the illegality, and have purposefully engaged in it myself before. That purpose is important, I feel, as it is with most things. I think intent is integral to most endeavours, and setting out with goals in mind rather than setting out to employ techniques is what I always advise in any context.
I think if you're stealing and then justifying it, though... I think then you are falling in to the trap GL mentioned.
It sounds like stealing gives you a buzz, and that your actions were serving that urge to hit the feeder bar more than they were serving your will.



You found it in a shop and the deal with shops is, you have to pay for the things in them.

To be pedantic (for which sorry), I think perhaps you mean to say you are supposed to pay, rather than you have to pay. Clearly from the above tale (and the massive losses from all sorts of places dude to theft every day) it is not essential, although i'd agree it's advised and expected.


I have also found that rules like the reversing of intended effects are often unsubstantiated hokum.
YMMV and I may be wrong, but I have used a stolen tarot deck for years and it has never given me reason to believe I am being cursed by my method of acquisition.

If anything it seems uncannily accurate, especially as it's used by a relative novice.
 
 
Haloquin
21:25 / 02.10.07
(Edit; I forgot to refresh the page and there were about 8 replies I hadn't read before posting this, sorry if I cross-posted)

Kowalski, I'm wondering what kind of path you're on? What kind of magical work you're doing? What sort of energies you are working with? I'd like to hear about whether the theft actually challenged you, because if not, I can't see it being useful.

As has been pointed out, many people get the urge to take magical objects home, and they then become powerful tools, but I'd like to know why you felt that taking it was an appropriate response, where paying for it wasn't?
I am mostly echoing others here, but I genuinely want to know; why did you resond with theft, where I would respond with paying? How are you justifying that response to yourself? How are you expecting that response, with no explanation, to be accepted on a place that encourages rational discussion and challenging of unthought-out thought processes?

In the summary you ask "why did I take a ball of the stuff without paying for it" well, you tell us, why did you?

Perhaps now is time to wonder why I would respond to that situation with paying for it, rather than walking out with it, or why I'd go back and pay for it.
My thoughts;
1. As people have said, we live in a society of exchange, this is how our society works, if I don't like it, I can live in a commune. As I do live here, arguably through choice, I feel I should behave in accordance of the rules.
2. Laws of the natural world; cause and effect; if I'm to use a magical tool, I want to be damn sure all the laws mean it belongs to me, or with me, and that I have a right to use it. If that means I pay for it because society demands it, then so be it.
3. I've worked in a shop and know what its like to deal with shop-lifted stock dissappearing and don't want to inflict that on others, this is just being nice. I generally try to be nice. I think it is appropriate and helps with living with other humans.
4. Paying for your experiences, I'd rather do it with money than with being recognised as a shoplifter next time I visit the shop...

So, yeah, I think the reaction from the board is justified, you haven't told us why you thought that your action was an appropriate reaction, it seems that you just acted. You don't appear to have thought about why you chose that path over other equally valid paths, and perhaps more socially responsible... so I have to wonder about you, are you trying to know your own motivations? (something I think helps with magic, but I may be wrong).

Also, if you don't think its worth the $10 asked for it, i.e. if you don't think its worth the time you (presumably) spent earning that $10, then why do you think its worth using?
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:30 / 02.10.07
I bring it up because, communitys that share often get labelled as thieves (especially in the case of P2P), and are often percieved as a threat to the greater culture that thrives on commerce and the exploitation of others, and i wanted to make the issue larger than just shops.

The issue around romany culture and the treatment of others outside of it is alot more complex than that and relates to ideas of purity, which unless you are a traditional travelling romany are alot harder to obey. I wasnt brought up with them, i dont believe my father was as well. But there is a huge misunderstanding around romany culture which leads to much suspiscion and name calling by others.
A hell of alot of stereotypes many of them unexamined and misunderstood.

There is a culture of criminality that does seem to thrive on praise, you are correct, it seems to be mainly pushed through media representation in my experience, but then i do not have a large experience of criminal culture. I have known one whom did have, he is now dead. What he told me in awe expecting praise drove me away from him quickly.
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:43 / 02.10.07
Also the person i was when i was a child understands something of the urge to steal, or this notion that things want you to have them, which i am afraid i do not believe is a magical one.

There are many people that do not understand transaction as barter and only understand transaction as trade in a monetary sense. As if money is the only form of payment. I have met a quite a few and am meeting more these days.

Nothing i have said stands as a justification for stealing, or supports it in any way.

But ownership and the sense of possession is an interesting subject, especially as this raises alot of questions about the nature of ownership and peoples relationships to things in there environment and themselves, alot to be learnt i think.
 
 
kowalski
22:33 / 02.10.07
Haloquin, I tend not to work in a structured fashion, but have rather been following relatively random and temporary interactions with encountered materials, animals, architecture and topography, encounters which I then enhance or interpret based on what I can glean from the anthropological/literary records of other systems or cultures. I've been aware of temporary interactions with specific spaces and waterways, of cyclical interactions with a handful of celestial bodies, and, as an outlier, I have established a more longstanding relationship with a major but largely ignored statue in the city in which I live. Now if that doesn't sound terribly rigorous or useful, that's fine, I'm aware that there are both benefits and limitations to this sort of flexible, intangible, and intermittent approach to practice.

Intellectually, I'm quite interested in the discussion of legitimized theft as has appeared in certain systems, though only as a tangent since I can't really relate to it personally. I had no conscious purpose in taking the stone, nor did the act of taking it excite or challenge me in any way. There was no objective hazard in attempting to walk out of the shop with it, nor was it a statement of defiance against the large institution that vends useless trinkets to tourists. The impulse was based neither on feelings of "I want this," nor "Wouldn't it be fun to try to take this?" Readers will have to trust that I can distinguish this honestly; if one can't give me that then I guess we can go round about again for another twenty posts.

Haloquin, to answer your question, I didn't pay for it because I had no reason to pay for it, and were I forced to choose between paying for it and leaving it in the shop I would have chosen the latter. I have no practical use for the stone, nor any existing need within my practice that it would fill. As far as I can tell, I was "asked" to take the stone from a basket of its peers, and did so the only way that was justifiable to me at the time.

Now, all this discussion of market relations and market norms has me asking a bit of a turn-around question. If one's practice involves respecting the independence of things (as was/is the case in many "primitive" cultures which did not view the world through the lens of markets and property ownership), then asserting ownership over an object through purchase could very well void anything you might do with it afterwards. To take your language, Haloquin, my approach in general is that objects involved in my magical practice do not belong to me.

If I had an intentional reason to work with pyrite, I could do some research and find an exposed deposit, travel to it and either work there or ask for permission to take some with me (with no guarantee that the stone would be agreeable); certainly if I were interested in working with sulphur specifically, I'm actually familiar with exposed deposits of the stuff at a regional distance from where I live. However, in this case I interacted with the item by chance in an artificial environment. Not only had I no previous intent of working with it before the encounter, but there would be no meaning to working with it had I actually purchased it.

So what interests me now, after the fact, in looking further into the act itself is not to directly interrogate my own motivations, but rather to explore what purpose, role, intentions or stories other cultures or systems have given to wandering stones (and sure, we can also look more generally, in monetized cultures, at the unpaid for/stolen). I have little doubt that I can learn plenty more about myself in approaching the event this way than by engaging in a self-flagellation bred of the social conditioning necessary to allow the market economy to function. In fact, if I succumb to the demands of the chorus that I admit to having wronged, I won't learn anything about myself or about the supposed "theft." I can't even morally consider it a "theft" since neither the object nor the act itself had or has any value to me, either as a possession or as "possessed."

So that's where I stand, whether any of you find that a credible, coherent reading or not. I've done a little digging in the realm of wandering stones, and while it's a recurring device across cultures, I haven't found much in the way of critical or comparative analysis regarding what it means to view a stone as having intent or agency over its travels, or even mere sensory experience of them.

And then as well, from a materials standpoint, I'm still interested in learning more about any meanings and purposes attached to pyrite by magical and traditional practitioners. I'd be especially interested in uncovering any contrary or unrelated readings to the obvious, European Fool's Gold narrative. Pyrite has proven to be very useful for a number of practical things (both industrial and pre-industrial), and I can't imagine that the only magical approaches developed with it would be the one's associating it with greed and deception. So I'm working on it, and in the meantime if anyone has any insights to share on these questions I'd be very excited to hear them.
 
 
Unconditional Love
23:20 / 02.10.07
The question to me becomes if the 10$ is worthless what does that matter to pay for it, a rock that speaks to me in some sense surely has more worth than 10$, so how much would i be prepared to pay for it? 10$ seems like nothing for a rock that talks to me.

Your wallet seems to be talking to you.
 
  

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