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Self-image and the societal ideas thereof (SBR)

  
  

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Kali, Queen of Kitteh
13:28 / 20.07.07
Unfortunately, that seems to leave only death.

I've never used food as self-medication, but I've used other things as such, things which make me feel equally as bad. So here I go again: going through a cycle of self-loathing, then abstinence, then bad behaviour, etc.
 
 
Papess
13:49 / 20.07.07
..isn't the myth that women are marketed these unhealthy ideas on the grounds that looking attractive really means attracting a partner (as if that's the be-all and end-all) therefore that must be the image that men (in the exclusively heteronormative society the media recognises) are attracted by. If this isn't actually the case, then why hasn't the notion just collapsed by now?

I am not certain what you are asking.

Is the myth that what men find attractive is what is presented by the media? Or that women want to attract partners by adopting a false self-image and then struggling to correct it to no avail? What is the myth?

Personally, I don't think the images we are being forced to conform to are propagated for any individual purposes at all. Not for partnership for certain, because even those women who are happily married are afflicted by such self-objectification.

The idea that women adopt unhealthy self-image is because we are conditioned to do so. The less of us the better. The less space we take up, the more "acceptable", (read tolerated) by society we are. The weaker we appear, that better to know our place as "weaker sex". There by science can develop theories about stature as being proof of whateverthefuck.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
13:52 / 20.07.07
Ron Stoppable: typically, many of the men I know will react with; "too skinny" when presented with such images.

I think you're underestimating the capacity for double standards and hypocrisy that straight men can achieve in this area. It seems to me that the method of getting away with enjoying looking at heavily retouched pictures of commodified, gym-starved women is to declaim that you know they're not real, you prefer real women, skinny supermodels aren't sexy, etc. It doesn't matter: the superskinny continue to get more attention and sell more magazines, whether to lustful straight men or envious/conflicted women is nearly incidental.
 
 
Ticker
13:54 / 20.07.07
So here I go again: going through a cycle of self-loathing, then abstinence, then bad behaviour, etc.

I hear ya I was thinking this last night on my way home as I ground my teeth and did not go to the bar where I would engage in drama and drunkeness and other things to regret. It prompted me to think about the Buddha and the path of suffering being about extremes rather than keeping everything moderate. Problem being sometimes I immensely enjoy the extremes but recognize they are a shit pattern for survival.

I don't do abstinence anymore really I do replacement switch and bait. Whatever the thing is that I want I sit with and figure out what the core requirement is and how to get that without dragging in everything I don't want. For example I know after a hundred plus days of sobriety I really want to not be sober but it makes far more sense to wait to be in the company of people like the spouse who can help me with my lowered judgment when it happens then go completely off the chain alone. It's a lot like planning to not drive to a party/pub when you are sober rather than leave it up to your drunken ego to make the decision about what a kickass driver you are when you can't walk straight.

Back on the fit versus miserable topic I love my local bicycle shop sign:

Ride More; Diet Less
 
 
Triplets
13:56 / 20.07.07
Fantastic topic and responses. I have a fair bit to add later about my own angst with skin problems vs. airbrush culture and what I've experienced via my ex-girlfriends (both of whom had various eating disorders/body issues).

In the meantime (and horribly off the T), XK's mediatation. I know you meant meditation but that's my neologism of the day. This is what people do when they zone out to talk shows, home shopping channels and general bad late-night telly.
 
 
Quantum
14:03 / 20.07.07
Come to think of it TV and hollywood possibly have a bigger impact than those horrid magazines. They certainly provide most of the celebrities the mags scrutinise.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
14:14 / 20.07.07
It's very irritating and frump-inducing to see magazine covers exhort about what celebrity has lost the most weight and how you can too. (Yes, if I had a lot of money to afford a personal trainer and dietitian or whatever.) I really hate it when they exult the celebrity for "slimming down to a size 2, all the way from a size 8!" As though it's shameful to be anything larger than size 2.
 
 
Ron Stoppable
14:15 / 20.07.07
Medulla:

my thinking was that societal norms of what is sexy (whether they be invented by or just propogated by mass media) come about because the purpose of striving to attain a certain image is to be wanted by the opposite sex and net a partner - "boys don't make passes at girls who wear glasses" etc.

That's not my judgment, just what I thought was the psychology behind it. My confusion came about from not buying into the idea that these images are what men are actually attracted to and so couldn't understand the logic behind presenting them as such to an audience who would rather not starve themseves for an audience that would rather they didn't either.

Both your comments on a person's image being representative of their power, rather than their attractiveness and Matt's thoughts about male hypocrisy and self-deception are intelligent and well taken - things I hadn't considered.
 
 
Ticker
14:19 / 20.07.07
plus if you know about sizing it gets even more depressing. American sizing for women works (AFAIK) like this:

20 inches plus the clothing size = IRL waist size.

so a size 2 is a 22 inch waist, a 10 is a 30 inch waist, and a 16 is a 36 inch waist.

even people who tight lace corsets have a hard time reaching a 22 inch waist. Lot's of organs in there!


My typos always amuse Quants, I'm surprised he didn't spot it before Trips.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
14:21 / 20.07.07
Sweet Lord, that is depressing.
 
 
Quantum
14:22 / 20.07.07
couldn't understand the logic behind presenting them as such to an audience who would rather not starve themseves for an audience that would rather they didn't either.

I think it doesn't resemble our Earth logic, more a self-sustaining engine of lies running on unhappiness and money. Look at it this way, if every guy you know says they think models are too thin, but all the media you see presents them as desirable and those tiny skinny girls get rich and famous, you're more likely to believe the men you know are a minority. Or hypocrites, obv.

(offtopic- Sexy glasses, hubba hubba! I was so tempted to post pics!)
 
 
Quantum
14:25 / 20.07.07
My typos always amuse Quants Always, but I try not to highlight them too much for fear of sounding mocking. To me mediatation is getting zapped by a Zen photoshoot team and coming out airbrushed and enlightened; "I'm gorgeous and it doesn't matter!"
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
14:25 / 20.07.07
While I've never been thin, I find that one of the effects of getting older is that one tends to gain a few more pounds. If I were to compare me at 23 and me at 30, then there would be at least a 15 lb. difference. This obviously makes me unhappy. I try not to dwell on it, it's just sometimes when you catch yourself in front of a mirror at a bad time...

I had one guy tell me that he didn't understand why women insisted on being skinny because men liked women with curves. I met his girlfriend. I have to tell you, if that was his idea of curvy, then something was horribly horribly off.
 
 
HCE
14:33 / 20.07.07
I'd like to add - what I see as the only counter to falling prey to this, is to try to regain a healthy mind, which, unfortunately, consumerism tries to package sell back to us too.

I think I know what you're saying here, and it's a good point, actually -- there seems to be a horrible commercialization of what I like to think was once the self-actualization movement, (this is perhaps nostalgia for an imaginary time). What we have now is the self-help industry, and while it's great to have an alternative to the self-harm industry, I rather wish it weren't all so frantically profit-driven.

On personal experience: I have noted that when my partner is feeling good about his body, he finds me much more attractive, which I think is wonderful. He likes going to the gym, so I don't think gyms and exercise are bad in and of themselves, by any means. It works the same way for me as well -- when I feel attractive, everyone else seems better-looking to me.

Also, on the subject of women sometimes doing horrible things to each other -- a few years ago my mother-in-law told me at Christmas dinner that, frankly, I needed to lose ten pounds. Her tone of voice suggested that she seriously doubted I'd be able to fit through the door, and that she was considering calling in workmen to knock a wall down so I could get out. I'll let you fill in from your imagination what sort of effect this had on me.

I recently came back from a trip abroad in difficult conditions, and lost a bit of weight (most unpleasantly, through poor food and not enough of it) and the first time she saw me she asked whether I'd lost weight. Aha! I had done something right! Well, no. Now she wanted to know why on earth I was wearing those horrible sagging pants that made my ass look like that. It's a lose-lose situation in some cases.
 
 
Quantum
14:38 / 20.07.07
It's all such an iniquitous lie. There's this myth that thin=happy, but even if you do reach your ideal weight and are fit and healthy you still won't look like ultrabeautiful hollywood starlets. I know loads of girls who are beautiful, size 6, with lovely boyfriends, who are still miserable and beat themselves up about spots/tiredness/age lines etc. etc.

The whole thing is a slippery slope toward cosmetic surgery and expensive anti-aging treatments. To me, confidence is probably the most attractive characteristic that shines through whatever people look like. Those tiny pretty miserable girls are nowhere near as attractive as someone who walks with head held high and smiling- irrespective of their weight, height, makeup etc.
 
 
HCE
14:39 / 20.07.07
I really hate it when they exult the celebrity for "slimming down to a size 2, all the way from a size 8!" As though it's shameful to be anything larger than size 2.

I know! As though a person who can fit into a size 8 is five minutes from death!
 
 
This Sunday
14:52 / 20.07.07
Really digging that 'Ride More; Diet Less.' That's beyond better than suffering the sight of pies behind glass, sad puppy-dog eyes and stomach rumbling belieing the stoic serious dieting.

I sometimes wonder if I'm the only young guy trying to forcefeed everybody, needling grandparenty-style. Not that I'm shooting for an obese world, but I hate to see people restrain themselves unnecessarily or out of somehow transfiguring a social-expectation to morality-status. And, in the case of food/weight, 'people' really does mostly mean 'women,' sadly. It's not like wanting pie is being addicted to heroin, but the guilt seen in some faces eyeing a menu?

I'd wager, we've all known enough guys convinced their lovehandles, say, were sexy, and working to keep them, but gods and Maxim forbid that a woman they're with have the slightest bit of subcutaneous matter not blood or skeleton.

It sometimes seems men are actually encouraged to get bulkier. It's the inverse from the first post, in that even some of the fitter men on television or in a magazine spread tend to have at least one area they've let go, and the average clothing shop has a men's section designed to cater to larger fellows (larger than me, anyway). Especially if you want stylish clothes, (Calvin Klein stuff, aside) more bulk can only help - and being six foot plus, but that's a whole other kettle. I'm rarely convinced I'm even approaching lookin' good, but I can manage to enjoy my state, I guess; convince myself of some fetishization of a failure to be fit as hell and immaculately gorgeous (or focus on my pedestrian status resulting in nice legs, and ignoring the rest of me) - which, I think a lot of guys can, and are encouraged societally, to do. Temporary or not, most of the women I know can't quite manage that.

One of my best friends used to be a model, was in Maxim-type mags, and now that she's allowed herself to just enjoy things, she's - not fat, necessarily, but - sturdier, and happier and calmer, and... not getting a lot of modeling work, any more. Which, does sometimes work in the other direction, too, just not if you want to lay about in a bikini and get paid for it, or something. Not a great revelation, no, but there's no way I'd encourage her to cut back on the porkchops and cheesecake so long as she's not suffering ill-health and she's all smiley and cheerful.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:07 / 20.07.07
It's unfortunately the case that people don't like to offend against what is deemed a socialy acceptable preference in their sexualities as well as the rest of their lives. This includes one's choice of whacking material, at least that likely to be observed by others (even if it's just the guy in the newsagent) and even one's choice of partner.
 
 
Ticker
15:11 / 20.07.07
It's not like wanting pie is being addicted to heroin, but the guilt seen in some faces eyeing a menu?

You have to be careful though because for some of us processed sugar is a drug with addiction and health fallout as well as quality of life mental hell triggers. If someone pushes on my fragile willpower there is more on the line then my built in emergency rations. Food choices are really complex and I know a good number of people taking refuge from family eating disorders in strict veganism which may or may not be the corrct coping mechanism. Conversely I know far more people who ride the sugar rails of thrill and plummet and teach the sweet = reward food = comfort habits to their children. truth is I know damn few people who do not have a comfort food or who do not feel the brain chemical shift when they consume caffeine and other stimulating intake and who have never abused those levers.

Overwhelmingly what we find attractive is happy self confident people more focused on enjoying life then those suffering over today's lunch menu. however the reasons people are suffering are far more invasive then external ads. Retail therapy works on the same principal in many cases where we act in ways to make ourselves feel better without taking the long term effects into consideration. I spend money on a shiny thing I don't actually need, I eat more than my body needs, and I over consume in general to compensate for some imbalance. Sometimes it is sensual fufillment, sometimes it is social interaction, and sometimes it's just entertainment,

I read online yesterday that by 2015 americans will be in the majority overweight. (DailyMail or some shitastic online thing maybe?). I see this less about fashion and body image and more about a driving need in my culture to be consumers and to only feel good about yourself when you are consuming, only successful if you can over consume.

Keeping the misery on tap and offering the cure in the form of externals seems to be the goal.
 
 
This Sunday
15:17 / 20.07.07
Legally - at least, in the States - processed sugar is an addictive substance, and in some states it's sell is legally controlled. My own biochemistry certainly requires it at times. What I mean is just that, well, there's addictive and then there's addictive (and then there's...). With intensity of addiction and effect being weighed.
 
 
HCE
15:21 / 20.07.07
Not meaning in any way to single you out, quantum, but I think that tiny pretty miserable girls is language that maybe comes from the same sort of place as other weight-related insults. Not everybody who's thin is starving herself, full of self-loathing, etc. I'm sure that kind of phrasing is meant as an expression of frustration rather than a term of abuse for thin women, but it sounds a wee bit judgmental to my ears.
 
 
Papess
16:46 / 20.07.07
Sugar is just one of the many addictive chemicals in our food, especially highly-processed food - steroids, for example. Even if those other chemicals, such as the food colouring and preservatives are not considered addictive, they certainly do effect our physiology and thus, our moods.

So, if you feel fat, you can be induced to buy diet pills, exercise videos, gym memberships. If you feel skinny, you can be induced to buy protein shakes, weights machines, gym memberships. In either case, your unhappiness can be harnessed to make you buy comfort foods.

Haus is right about consumerism, IMO. Industries want us to feel dissatisfied with ourselves, no matter what. Everything is sold to us with a bit of poison (in some cases quite literally) to keep us coming back for more.
However, I think that there must be a cultural value in place beforehand to market and exploit.
 
 
totep
19:10 / 20.07.07
gourami

Not meaning in any way to single you out, quantum, but I think that tiny pretty miserable girls is language that maybe comes from the same sort of place as other weight-related insults. Not everybody who's thin is starving herself, full of self-loathing, etc. I'm sure that kind of phrasing is meant as an expression of frustration rather than a term of abuse for thin women, but it sounds a wee bit judgmental to my ears.

Thank you for posting that!! I was all about to and then got to your post and was sad that I couldn't be the first to say something about it. I have several lady friends who are very thin and they have many'a tale about being accused of having eating disorders and other shit like that. One of my ex-girlfriends had an eating disorder when she was in high school and had to go through treatment and was having trouble putting on weight for years after that; once a friend pulled me aside (while we were still dating) and told me she was worried about my girlfriend and how I should watch for signs of eating disorders. I know she was only trying to help, but it really rubbed me the wrong way, I just felt like, "seriously, you know nothing of the situation, shut up." It just hurt, knowing how hard my ex had been working on being healthy and all that for someone to start judging her based on her thinness.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:32 / 20.07.07
Yeah, it's something I have to watch out for in myself. It's not people with different bodytypes that are the problem.
 
 
EvskiG
19:42 / 20.07.07
I don't know if people have seen this recent comparison of a Photoshopped cover picture to the unretouched original, but it seemed relevant to the conversation.

More here.
 
 
Ticker
19:42 / 20.07.07
I fast on occassion, either for health or religious reasons, and it is very hard for my spouse because of his experiences with an ex's eating disorders. the really difficult part is I have to check my reasons to make sure I'm not passing off a body image issue as something else. As I said earlier I've known a good number of people with intense dietary restrictions which they have realized are masking eating disorders.

I think inquiry as an expression of investment in another person is fine as long as you don't bring uninformed conclusions with you into the discussion. to present it as self discovery and curiosity is very different then the roving eye of the food police.
 
 
Quantum
19:56 / 20.07.07
tiny pretty miserable girls is language that maybe comes from the same sort of place as other weight-related insults.

Apologies, I should have been clearer- the women I'm talking about are the physical ideal espoused by the media, early twenties, 'beautiful', size six and whatever. I just wanted to point out they *are* the imposssible ideal people aspire to, and yet they still feel the pressures everybody else does and are no happier. The illusion that you can reach the perfect ideal is the iniquity I was critiquing.
Just to be clear, I don't see 'tiny pretty miserable girls' as an insult, except perhaps 'miserable' which is more accurately expressed as 'as miserable as anyone else female trapped in the self-esteem tsunami that is modern culture'.
The people I'm talking about are my friends, I should have been clearer I was using language derived from the horrid magazine culture deliberately.
 
 
Quantum
20:06 / 20.07.07
Oh, addendum- I only just realised how my post could be seen to relate to eating disorders, I'm sorry. Stupid of me. I am over-familiar with the problems involved with eating disorders and it's one of the reasons I get enraged.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
21:50 / 20.07.07
XK: it is very scary when I cease to be physically large and find myself squarely in the attractive female box

I've had too many pints and too much cake, already, to really make sense on this topic. But I think this is a really interesting point - that losing weight is scary, that looking different is not this amazing change for the better that it's sold as but can actually quite a challenge to your self image. I lost weight without trying to when I was having a very hard time at work (and wrote about it, a bit, in Ex's thread linked above), and at the time I didn't notice that I was engaging in fairly destructive behaviours, one of which was food related. And I didn't like losing quite a lot of weight without knowing why -clothes stopped fitting, I stopped occupying the space in the world I expected to occupy -I was told that I looked good (or well) quite often, and my mental state was far from good and well.

Essentially, I'm interested to hear that looking more like a socially 'ideal' shape has been difficult for other people, and it's something I'd like to discuss further -as I said, not quite in the place to talk about that myself (that place being midnight on a Friday), but would certainly be interested to read and discuss more on that topic.
 
 
HCE
00:09 / 21.07.07
Quantum - sorry about that, yours was just the closest post at the time, I see now what you were saying.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
07:06 / 21.07.07
Essentially, I'm interested to hear that looking more like a socially 'ideal' shape has been difficult for other people, and it's something I'd like to discuss further -

I may be able to help here...I've never really had a negative body image (except when for a couple years when I was a teenager and had crappy skin, but I figure that's just part of growing up). When I became old enough to worry about those things, I started exercising and was forced by my parens to do a spring sport in school (fall was music season, but was almost as physically exhausting). I sort of think that comics played a role in my desire to have great abs, I mean everybody in the marvel universe apparently had a wonderful exercise regiment.

So I figured being lean and relatively muscular was the way to be and so I applied myself to that goal (I often joke that my abs are the only thing in my life that I've truly worked hard for), and guess what! I got a shit-load of positive reinforcement being cut and defined (it also didn't hurt that my parents passed down their fine slavic good looks).

The downside is, of course, that this involves a long battle with vanity and narcissism. A little bit of vanity never killed anyone, sure, but god help you if you start to depend on the sort of positive reinforcement that comes with being attractive. I have attractive friends who wonder how seriously people would take them if they weren't so beautiful (which is an insult to themselves and most of the people they know). Fortunately I've never had those doubts, as the vanity I was born with (as opposed to the vanity that came with accomplishing a goal like attaining abs you could grate cheese on) causes me to automatically assume that everyone in the room is going to recognize how awesome I am and treat me accordingly. Which comes with it's own share of problems, of course, but I tolerate it because it's sort of my heritage. Sort of like the unusually large, muscular thighs with which my family has been blessed.

Anyway, let me conclude by stating that I'm sure no one needs to be told that identifying strongly with your body image and coming to depend on the sort of positive reinforcement given to attractive people is a path to bad times.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
07:07 / 21.07.07
I need to stop making so many paranthetical comments. Seriously. Somebody take the 9, 0 and Shift keys away from me.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:23 / 21.07.07
Fortunately I've never had those doubts, as the vanity I was born with (as opposed to the vanity that came with accomplishing a goal like attaining abs you could grate cheese on) causes me to automatically assume that everyone in the room is going to recognize how awesome I am and treat me accordingly.

I think this may possibnly be gender-related, yes?
 
 
This Sunday
14:29 / 21.07.07
I think this may possibly be gender-related, yes?

Or, more generally class related? In the broadest sense possible, to include gender, race, et al, but to distinguish this feeling from the feeling of someone who goes into the situation with a background training telling them they're going to be second-classed and looked down on. Or, like me, have bouts of paranoia that, despite being a light-skinned man, I'll be found out through magick race/sexuality detectors. Leading to paranoia that I'm trying to pass, even if it's not a conscious thing; leading, then, to some kind of imposter syndrome. In a parking lot, the other day, someone asked me 'How much are you?' and I thought they were making some kinda personal comment, looking for a price or something and turned around just about looking for a fight. Turns out, they wanted my racial breakdown, and yes, my paranoid brain was all 'How/What could they tell?' and, despite phrasing, it's not like it was an attack-question, necessarily. Just responded to it that way.

I think if I've got vanity - and I have - it's primarily indignant vanity based around presumptions of rejection and dismissal, with the big swelled-headness saved for acceptance and doing something right once in a blue moon. Tuna, does this automatic assumption of acceptance/recognition extend all the way? I mean, has there never been a time you went into a restaurant, or a neighborhood, a city even, where you felt you just weren't going to get served, dealt with, or that the people who belonged there would prefer you just leave? If never, that's awesome, but it would surprise me.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
15:06 / 21.07.07
Of course that happens occasionally, but being white, male and upper-middle class means that it's not very often. Detroit, obviously, which is where I used to buy my drugs, never felt that welcoming. But that's rationalized away with thinking like "well sure, I don't belong here, but people who were born here get shot down everyday, so maybe that's not important". Whenever I'm in Japan I am acutely aware that I'm very different from everyone else, and while Man On the Street X is often not friendly or warm or anything, it's been my experience that cold politeness is almost preferable.

But really, I've spent a long time developing a look that tells everyone that sees me that they already know everything about me because they've already met a hundred guys just like me. So it's not usually a problem.
 
  

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