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Self-image and the societal ideas thereof (SBR)

  
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
16:32 / 23.07.07
Sorry, Legs, btw - answer got lost up there a bit.

I mean, as in Oscar Wilde's preface to Dorian Gray, where he says "art is useless".

The theory of sculpture that classical sculptors used, as I understand it, evolved from statues-as-part-of-ritual and came to stipulate that the statue's job was to be a thing of beauty in itself - not, like Vogue, some form of "beauty" in the service of the desire to sell anything.

Well, you've got a couple of contradictory notions, there - that art is useless (which is to say, entirely internally directed and with no social function) and that the Classical art you are citing has its origins in devotional art.

Personally, I wouldn't exactly line up behind either, although their are elements of truth in both. Classical Greek statuary probably comes from the kore in Near Eastern temple decoration, and was originally employed primarily devotionally. It was not used to sell _products_, but then these were not capitalist societies. It was, however, used to sell the grandeur of the state, and the grandeur of its leading citizens or rulers. Contribution to major public works was a way for the wealthy to put themselves before the people - much as the choregos could wow the punters with an impressive and expensive chorus at state drama (I'm talking about Athens, specifically, here). So, no - I don't think there was ever a time when statuary was simply the disinterested pursuit of an abstract concept of physical beauty, and that certainly goes for the Renaissance, where Florence in particular saw fierce competition between the leading families in the creation of art. Did Michaelangelo want people to look at David and wish that they had his abs? It seems relatively unlikely. But to be attracted to David, or impressed by David, and thus prone to be impressed by the munificence and buying power of the Woolmerchants' Guild, and by the vitality and wealth of Florence herself? Yes, I would say so.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
16:35 / 23.07.07
Well, the thing there though, is that the clothes being made *don't* fit the ever-smaller models: there's a standard sample size and regularly, this will be rather larger than the models due to wear them. I can't find anything to suggest the sample sizes themselves are actually changing.

That said, I'm not sure the distinction matters anyway; regardless of whether it's making smaller clothes with the expectation of fitting smaller models, or whether it's just hiring smaller models to wear the clothes regardless, there are people within the fashion industry making decisions which affect it's overall working in such a way that the ideal body size from the industry's point of view is smaller than ever.

(Sorry, I don't want the whole conversation to be about the fashion industry. I just think that it reflects a tendency within society to equate thin with good more than ever before, and is probably the most egregious example of this behaviour.)
 
 
ibis the being
21:01 / 25.07.07
I have to come back to this thread today because of ongoing meatspace experiences that won't let me forget about this issue.

I think most people wouldnt say anything about anything so personal as weight unless they were acting upon something they knew as fact...like the person only ate when they were with people and even then didnt eat a lot or were displaying behaviour which correlated with some kind of eating problem.(crimson)

I think the fat=bad thing is more commonly encountered than the thin=bad thing. Kids don't get teased in playgrounds for being thin very often, teenagers don't often laugh at each other for being thin, people dont jump to insults based on weight for skinny people in the same way.
Not to say these things don't happen, of course, but in my experience larger people get more grief about their weight. I'm a skinny guy, and if someone saw an empty chocolate wrapper on my desk they probably wouldn't comment. (Quantum)

Crimson - would if that were true. If that has been your experience than I envy you. And Quantum, I would suggest that the lack of harrassment you're seeing about your body or eating habits may be because you are male. Let me tell you what things look like from my perspective:

Yesterday my client, just being friendly and chatting, was talking about Tammy Faye Bakker's last appearance on TV in which she was 65 lbs and at death's door. My client added, "of course, if you lost 5 more pounds you'd look a lot like her!" Ha ha. Today this client again remarked on me being the size of a "Christmas ornament" among other odd, small objects. Then a colleague came to meet with us and immediately asked if I had eaten anything while I was out of town (for 2 months). When I explained about going vegetarian blah blah, she asked, "do you eat chocolate?" I told her yeah of course and she said derisively "no of course you don't, with a butt like that you're not eating any chocolate."

These kinds of comments, especially coming in a work environment, feel very invasive to me. Unfortunately they're not uncommon in my experience. It's hard to me to comprehend why these things are okay to say to anyone. And it's very difficult, in the moment, to know how to respond. Usually a frozen smile is the best I can do.
I suspect there is an unfair assumption made that thin people are immune to critiques on our bodies because we must just be so happy with our bodies that insults bounce off our giant inflated senses of self-satisfaction. Critique of one's appearance doesn't hurt because it's true or untrue - it hurts because it transgresses personal boundaries.

I would hope that people with a naturally low BMI wouldnt feel victimised for being thin. I think there is a world of difference between people who are naturally thin and people who systematically deny themselves the calories they need.

I think what is implied by this is a commonly attitude that the only thin people who get a pass from criticism are those skinny people who eat burgers and fries every day and just can't help being thin - they're "naturally" thin. Kind of like the only overweight people who get that pass are the ones who diet and exercise all the time and can't help being overweight - they're "naturally" fat. But I think those people are the exception and not the rule in both cases. By extension, that attitude - rather bizarrely, I think - says thin people who watch what they eat are bad and by definition have eating disorders. Everyone should watch what they eat. Humans are opportunistic omnivores, and with food being as plentiful as it is in Western culture, we *must* use our brains to regulate our eating habits. The idea that people need to be able to eat fast food and cheesecake and soda and still be at a normal healthy weight is an irrational, self-defeating concept wholly invented by corporations selling us fast food and cheesecake and soda (and treadmills and diet pills etc).

I'm maybe a little overly passionate about this whole subject because I'm very passionate about nutrition, and it so happens that I'm currently tasked with creating and maintaining a meal plan for my inlaws, who have practically every disease and health problem related to poor eating habits that it's possible to have - diabetes, heart disease, blindness, neuropathy, kidney disease, insomnia, fatigue, depression - hell, you name it. (Incidentally, one is overweight and one is not but they are both very ill.) For me to be so fanatical about nutrition and be under this onslaught of derogatory remarks about the way my body looks - because I'm thinner than average, and average is overweight, basically - is just too ironic to bear.
 
  

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