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Bernard Manning dies

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:42 / 19.06.07
Believe me, Falkster, when you HAVE to read this shit it's one of those tricks you learn to preserve your own sanity.
 
 
The Falcon
21:55 / 19.06.07
You HAVE to?

teh suck.

I accidentally read the Express on break the other day and almost went into toxic shock.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:57 / 19.06.07
Seriously. It's my job. I've been doing it for seven years and it's driving me fucking insane.
 
 
Tsuga
22:41 / 19.06.07
However, I don't think there's anything working-class about misogyny, nor for that matter anything working-class or Northern about racism.

I'd agree and go slightly further. I think there's a tendency in some, mostly middle class, people working in the media to justify the bigotry of the likes of Manning by pointing to their working class background. With the underlying classist attitude that working class people are stupid and can't be expected to know any better.


I'm not sure I totally understand this line of thought. Prejudice is absolutely not exclusive of any class or type of people, but certain kinds are more prevalent in certain cultures, cultures being a product of place and income and education and...so on, really. Cultures and subcultures are self-perpetuating (and evolving), and often elements of particular prejudice are components of them. It's a broad generalization to say fundamentalist Islamic cultures are sexist, but can you really disagree? Generalizations are inherently dangerous because they aren't all true. Haus, it's great if your working-class forbearers were progressive, but you can't claim that they were the norm. I guess you're not really saying that, though. I mean, are you just declining to validate generalizations? That's fine with me. I just think it's unrealistic to totally separate prevalent cultural attitudes from the culture that spawns them. Well, not that you're doing that either. I guess I'll just reiterate I'm not sure I totally understand this line of thought.
I think the underlying classist attitude that working class people are stupid and can't be expected to know any better. is an all-too-common problem. But is it classist to believe that someone can be a product of a culture that encourages certain types of ignorance or prejudice (always a product of ignorance)? I mean, just about every human group that I can think of is guilty at least sometimes of that.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
05:04 / 20.06.07
Hmmm have we had a thread about bigotry and the working class? I think it's actually a very important and interesting topic, but I've no faith in my ability to write a clever and sensitive enough opening post about it.

My main thoughts are about how obviously it does exist, despite the fact that it's probably even especially toxic to working class interests and I'd be interested in analysing why that is.

From my Marxist perspective I'm particularly aware of how it serves ruling class interests to engender bigotry among workers, in an effort to have us at each others throats rather than at that of the ruling class, and as such I imagine the ruling class determined structure of society goes to some effort to ensure that bigotry remains a force among the workers.

Also there is a side order of interest in how the media seems to be far more willing to visibly call out and condemn bigotry when it's coming from identifiably working class individuals than otherwise - see Manning, but also for instance Jade Goody.

To be clear I do not beleive that the working class is intrinsically more bigotted than any other class, and indeed is functionally probably less so than those classes that have more power in society and therefore continue to profit of a system which thrives on bigotry and division. But I do think that fighting the bigotry that does exist within the working class from within the class itself, is one of the most important battles that anyone can be fighting right now.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:19 / 20.06.07
Haus, it's great if your working-class forbearers were progressive, but you can't claim that they were the norm.

Well, as ever, show me on the doll where I did claim that.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
05:51 / 20.06.07
I just wanted to say as well Haus's great grandfather - the man was quite clearly made of win. I've been reading about the struggles of the dockers in the 1920s recently and about how racism among the white dockers went along way towards undermining those struggles, so those who were there fighting the correct line are pretty much among my heroes right now.

Oh and by the way Stoatie, you have my sympathies, I'm fairly sure I'd be a shambling, mockery of a man within weeks of doing that job.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:22 / 20.06.07
I think it's worth pointing out as well - and yes, there could be a whole thread about this - that the expressions of racism that are commonly seen as identified with the working class, such as obviously racist language, are much more visible but also arguably much less influential and impactful than middle and upper class expressions of racism (I'm thinking of media influence, for example, and how the media can convey very insidious racist ideas without ever having to use as transparent or blunt a tool as hatespeech).
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:39 / 20.06.07
Well, yeah, I was just going to say. I hear a lot of derisive talk from middle class people about the bigotry of "Sun readers," but less about the bigotry of the University-educated journalists who write that shit or the wealthy media barons who profit from it.
 
 
---
07:58 / 20.06.07
I wonder if he needs a beer right now.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:13 / 20.06.07
Generally, I'm with those people who think it's unhelpful to type *sigh* at the beginning of a post. It's just a rhetorical sound effect, designed to communicate "I think the post immediately before mind is stupid and exasperating" in shorthand.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:14 / 20.06.07
Having said that:

*sigh*

Who needs a beer right now, On Leave? Do you even know who Bernard Manning was?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:03 / 20.06.07
Thanks, Papers. It's odd - my ancestors up to a certain point seem strangely moral, and then it all goes completely and horribly wrong. First sniff of money, probably.

But, and this ties in to the racism on the docks and Flyboy's comment about certain types of racism being more visible than others, and thus easier to point out - the sexism that makes women walk the streets completely covered is materially more obvious than the form of sexism that keeps women out of senior banking positions because they might get pregnant, say, which is possibly why Tsuga chose it, even though it was a long way geographically and culturally distant from what we were actually talking about - the British, and specifically the Northern British (although of course my GGF was Welsh, which is North in some ways and not in others) working class.

This maybe leads back to Bernard Manning, who wanted to use a very blunt, working-class form of racism - to be visible in his use of racist language in the way that somebody using a derogatory term to describe Chinese food or a shop run by South Asians is visible - but also to be visible in the way that people on the telly are visible.
 
 
Tsuga
09:11 / 20.06.07
Well, as ever, show me on the doll where I did claim that.
Sorry. I did qualify that statement in the next sentence:
I guess you're not really saying that, though.
That was sincere, actually. I think what you and others may be saying is that it's a weak excuse for people to say that this guy making racist jokes was okay because he was just being honest to the working class. Which I agree with, it doesn't make it okay. But certainly where and how one grows up can strongly influence one's ethos, is I guess what I was saying. You can't really separate them.
Haus, you said I don't think there's anything working-class about misogyny, nor for that matter anything working-class or Northern about racism. Obviously prejudice is not exclusive to any class or group, but specific prejudices can be more common in some groups, or sometimes even specific to a group.
I apologize if I'm being obtuse; I am often guilty of either pointing out the obvious, or entirely missing the point.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:49 / 20.06.07
Yes, sorrry if I sounded short, Tsuga - I was racing. You did indeed qualify that.

However, I think you are missing the point, rather. I sort of am saying it's a weak excuse for people to say that this guy making racist jokes was okay because he was just being honest to the working class. However, I think we mean two different things by that. You seem to mean that the fact that the working class are racist does not excuse the racism of a member of the working class, although it may help to explain it. I mean that there is no reason why one should just think "well, that's the working class for you: racist". I don't think it's true that the Northern British working class are racist in a way or to an extent that other people in Britain are not. I do think that the way that racism manifests itself is different, is often more visible and is the subject of more attention, precisely because the attention is conferred by people outside the working classes. See for comparison the comparative example you used - how much more other can you get than fundamentalist Islamic theocracies? See also also the way that these impulses are used - for example, how white dockers often found themselves being told that equal pay would take the bread from their table, when in fact it meant that the people who owned the docks would possibly have to have a bit less caviar on theirs - the net requirement for labour would be the same. Turn it around, and you can have foreign workers who will do the same job for less money taking jobs away from "our" workforce - again, race is being used here as a way to prevent workers from aligning their goals.

As such, the Labour movement, which has strong foundations in the North of England and Wales, has often worked to educate and mobilise labour - the working class - to identify where the real blocks to their interest are. Likewise, the BNP recently has sought to spread the idea that it makes good economic sense for the working classes to hold and act on racist views.

So, point one, there is nothing intrinsically or necessarily racist abour working-class culture in the North of England. Point two, the way racism happens in the North of England is not the only way racism can happen, or its most extreme or effectual manifestation. Point three, I think, is that it seems clear that Manning was _not_ just behaving in line with his (racist, Northern English, working class) culture - not least because that culture doesn't generally get on stage with a microphone, or want to have its own television programme, and because a lot of other people from his age and his culture managed to get through the day without using hate speech on stage.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
11:56 / 20.06.07
But is it classist to believe that someone can be a product of a culture that encourages certain types of ignorance or prejudice (always a product of ignorance)? I mean, just about every human group that I can think of is guilty at least sometimes of that.

What Haus said. I'm certainly not claiming that working class people aren't capable of being racist. It's a sad truism that suffering from oppression of one type doesn't preclude bigotry against another oppressed group. What I think is classist is the assumption that (northern) working class culture is inherently racist when compared to middle and upper class culture.

And I think that we can see that in play in the media, including the 'liberal' media, at times.

For example, I think the opprobrium aimed at largely monoracial white working class communities is far greater than that aimed at the gated communities favoured by some of the better off.
 
 
Tsuga
23:59 / 20.06.07
Tom PainesWhat I think is classist is the assumption that (northern) working class culture is inherently racist when compared to middle and upper class culture.
Totally. I think it's usually a mistake when any group is considered more or less prejudiced than any other. They just sometimes have different prejudices. That said, I think the People Here at Barbelith generally are less prejudiced, which is something I don't know I could say about many other groups at all. It's really amazing, for the most part. But of course, there is still prejudice here. (I need to go check the threads that are firing up the old Barbannoy grill)
Haus mentioned: See for comparison the comparative example you used-how much more other can you get than fundamentalist Islamic theocracies? I used the example because the sexism is often pointed out as extreme. Probably not compared to many other places, but it's often pretty bad, and an easy example. I may think that "my culture" has attributes that are better, like more education for females than, say, many places in eastern Afghanistan; but it doesn't make the culture overall better, and certainly the people are no better.
Anyway, thanks for responding, I understand your points.
 
 
Janean Patience
08:25 / 21.06.07
I'm pig sick of newspaper articles opening with the classic defence of Manning: "He was equally offensive to everybody." Because he wasn't, was he? His fellow much-hated Northern comedian Roy Chubby Brown, an inverterate misogynist, at least has claim to that. He goes out of his way to offend audiences wherever he goes. Bernard had sacred cows: he wouldn't joke about our armed forces, he'd never call the Queen a c**t, there's no way he'd make a Madeleine McCann joke while Chubby Brown almost certainly would. Most of the articles establish his freedom to be racist because of his non-discriminatory offensiveness and then go on to list the subjects he wouldn't consider to be appropriate for comedy without recognising any contradiction. Which pisses me off.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
13:14 / 21.06.07
A joke from sleazy gossip e-mail newsletter Popbitch:

Q: What's black and annoyed?

A: Bernard Manning's reincarnation.

/rimshot.
 
 
Peach Pie
20:19 / 21.08.07
The Dear Man was immortalised on the Mrs Merton Show, where he famously got on with ... everyone!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umrao84ZEJU&mode=related&search=
 
  

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