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Bernard Manning dies

 
  

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STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:59 / 18.06.07
Bernard Manning's carked it.

I don't believe in speaking ill of the dead, so can anyone tell me the sign language for "see you in Hell, you racist fuck"?
 
 
Feverfew
15:28 / 18.06.07
See
The right 'V' hand, palm facing the body, is placed so that the fingertips are just under the eyes. The hand swings straight out.

you (singular pronoun)
The signer points to the person he is addressing.

in
Move the closed fingers of the right hand into the left 'C' hand.

(Can't find 'hell'),

you (singular pronoun)
The signer points to the person he is addressing.

race-
The 'A' hands are held side by side before the chest, palms facing each other and thumbs pointing forward. In this position the hands move alternately back and forth, toward and away from the body.
-ist


bad
The tips of the right 'B' hand are placed at the lips, and then the hand is thrown down.

person.
The 'P' hands, side by side, move straight down a short distance, as if outlining the sides of an unseen individual.

*

I wouldn't normally bother, but it is Bernard Manning.
 
 
Seth
15:30 / 18.06.07
You can buy a dead Bernard Manning in a tin?

Nice. YO!
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:33 / 18.06.07
"I'm melting! The nasty coloured types have melted me!"
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:38 / 18.06.07
Wow. First time he's ever made me laugh.
 
 
Janean Patience
16:47 / 18.06.07
To adopt an old rhyme traditionally sung when seeing Bernard around and about in Manchester:

He's big, he's round
He's six feet underground
Bernie M, Bernie M...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
17:17 / 18.06.07
The list of mourners on the BBC website does make for fairly grim reading though, including as it does such luminaries as Frank Carson, Stan Boardman and Michael Winner. If you do get the friends you deserve then I hope for Bernard's sake that he had a priest at his bedside. Otherwise the prognosis is not good.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:40 / 18.06.07
On the plus side, we could find out who's doing the catering for the big send-off and put rat poison in the canapés.
 
 
Janean Patience
07:16 / 19.06.07
I wonder if all the black, Asian, Chinese, Jewish and gay people Bernard had in tears of grateful laughter at his shows, according to his own much-repeated account, will turn up to his funeral? Will it, because of Bern's ability to cross all boundaries with his comedy, be something of a celebration of multi-culturalism? Or will it be full of ugly white people from Middleton looking like Ginsters pasties packed into cheap suits? I suspect the latter.
 
 
Lea-side
07:22 / 19.06.07
gah! you've entirely put me off eating my Ginsters Pasty!
 
 
illmatic
07:44 / 19.06.07
Weirdly, I actually like(d) Bernard Manning.
 
 
Seth
08:31 / 19.06.07
YO! Roy, I'm sure on other boards that you frequent such "honesty" is applauded, but here on Barbelith I'm afraid I'm going to have to start a thread asking for you to be banned.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:41 / 19.06.07
What did you like about him, Roy?

Personally I am glad he is dead! Yay!
 
 
Janean Patience
09:29 / 19.06.07
Manning's self-penned obituary appears in the Daily Mail today. Among the usual justifications it includes this startling information:

"I was one of the armed guards watching over the Nazi hierarchy locked up in Spandau prison. For a 16-year-old it was a bizarre experience standing over the likes of Rudolf Hess and Albert Speer with a Bren gun."
 
 
illmatic
09:44 / 19.06.07
What did you like about him, Roy?

I actually think he was really funny, a very talented comic, despite the racist gags, which were surprisingly few in the stuff I heard by him.
 
 
Seth
10:05 / 19.06.07
I never figured you as an apologist for evil Roy. Rather than aiming to get you banned I'm going to eat your skull. Banning's too good for devil worshippers like you. YO!
 
 
illmatic
10:10 / 19.06.07
YO! I'm sorry to have disappointed you. Bear in mind I also have a soft spot for Frank Carson.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:13 / 19.06.07
What about Jim Davidson?
 
 
illmatic
10:16 / 19.06.07
I'm not as familar with his Work.
 
 
Seth
10:20 / 19.06.07
YO! I'm sorry to have disappointed you.

x X x It's OK. I FORGIVE YOU!!! x X x
 
 
illmatic
10:58 / 19.06.07
I thought the most interesting part of Manning's self-penned obituary was this:

Did these selfrighteous critics know that Clive Lloyd, the great West Indian cricket captain, asked me to perform as part of his testimonial?

Or that I did a fund-raising event for the Lancashire and India wicketkeeper Farokh Engineer and another for the great black boxing champion John Conteh? For goodness-sake, I was multi-racial myself, a descendant of Jewish immigrants from Sevastopol. Throughout my life, a sign with the Jewish greeting 'Shalom' hung by door of my home in North Manchester.


That matches my perception of him, really. Though he used racist language in his comedy and defended it, I don't see him as someone with the same visceral hatred and fear of black and Asian people as say, Nick Griffin.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:09 / 19.06.07
Yes, famously no Jewish people have ever been racist to black and Asian people (nor vice versa)!
 
 
illmatic
11:10 / 19.06.07
Did I say Manning had never been racist?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:16 / 19.06.07
I was refering more to his own self-justification, which I don't really see as remarkable at all - what's "interesting" about hearing "some of my best clients/acquaintances have been black" for the Nth million time in this day and age?
 
 
illmatic
11:21 / 19.06.07
Oh, I think it is interesting - isn't the view of most liberally inclined people that Manning was the foulest of the foul kind of bigot? Up there with Skrewdriver?

I think those connections show he was perhaps not as outright a racist shitbag as one first might think.
 
 
illmatic
11:24 / 19.06.07
That's been my view the couple of times I've heard his comedy as well. It's very reactionary and old fashioned to be sure, but I thought it was a bit more interesting (and funny) than straightforward hatespeech.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:35 / 19.06.07
I think you can say that somebody can, sincerely and in good faith, believe that their use of racist language and racist stereotypes is not racist and does not advance the agenda of racism. I have no problem believing that Bernard Manning was one such. Many people on Barbelith have explained why they can do it, which is usually some variation of the idea that they are on the side of the subject of the racist language or stereotype, or that they are mocking the bigotry of people who are not they who use them. When I was younger, I probably would if challenged have defended some of my actions or those of my contemporaries in the same way.

So, yes - I have no problem with the contention that Bermard Manning had friends or clients of other races, although I don't think that logically demands that he did not hold racist views or that he did not advance the cause of racism. I also have no problem with the idea that he did not hold racist views, or held views no more racist than many others, and do not think that this logically demands that he did not use or defend the use of racist language or stereotypes.

However. None of that really helps if you are a Black or Asian person in the audience who has been singled out, has been upset by the use of racist language and stereotypes, and now has to decide whether to laugh along (thus perpetuating the idea that this behaviour is not just acceptable but actively enjoyable), or to react in some way (thus appearing "humourless" and being roundly mocked for it) - this reaction of course in a situation with a huge difference in power between the person on stage with a microphone and the person in the audience without.

Personally, I wouldn't have seen Manning as "the worst kind of bigot", no. There are much worse kinds of bigot. He was, however, a comedian who decided that his comfort zone and his sense of himself as inconoclast, champion of freedom, populist and so on was more important than challenging the use of racist language and racist stereotypes in his humour.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:42 / 19.06.07
Oh, I think it is interesting - isn't the view of most liberally inclined people that Manning was the foulest of the foul kind of bigot?

I think this is something of a strawman. I'm not aware of any anti-racist critic of Manning who would be surprised by him claiming not to be a racist.

Independent obituary, which is actually interesting.

In 1994, two black waitresses at a Round Table charity dinner in a Derby hotel took exception to Manning's act and went to an industrial tribunal against the management of the hotel for racial discrimination. They lost, later to have the decision overturned at appeal, where they won an undisclosed sum. Manning was most insulted that they claimed he had used the word [omitted] "It's a horrible, disgusting word I've never used in my life," he complained. The terms [omitted] and [omitted], he insisted, were historical words with respectable roots.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:43 / 19.06.07
Still, you're right, Manning often said things which weren't racist. Here's one!

"Eddie Izzard - can’t stand to look at him with lipstick and mascara, nauseating. The audience is all gay."
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:46 / 19.06.07
Yes, I have difficulty reconciling Manning's claim that he is not racist with his use of humour which is racist, such as the time he pointed to an Indian gentleman in his audience and suggested that they hang him. So to me Manning is either racist or openly indulges in racist behaviour, either of which is equally bad, not funny and I associate myself with the sentiments of the first few entries in this thread.

Jim Davidson though...
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
12:00 / 19.06.07
I can say with some surety that very few people on our side of the pond have heard of him.

I clicked on a couple of YouTube links out of curiosity yesterday, and the one that was still working had a joke comparing Iraqi women to some sort of ugly fish about two minutes in. That was enough.

Life's too short to listen to that drivel, although apparently some people think life's long enough to waste your time generating it.
 
 
illmatic
12:47 / 19.06.07
None of that really helps if you are a Black or Asian person in the audience who has been singled out, has been upset by the use of racist language and stereotypes, and now has to decide whether to laugh along

I'd wholeheartedly agree with that Haus, and this pretty much:

He was, however, a comedian who decided that his comfort zone and his sense of himself as inconoclast, champion of freedom, populist and so on was more important than challenging the use of racist language and racist stereotypes in his humour

… though looking at his life, it seems extremely unlikely that he ever would have challenged himself and his material in this way for a variety of reasons, some of which are given in The Independent obituary – pig-headness for one, and the construction of himself as in opposition to “trendy” progressive comedians - part of his appeal to his “core” audience. I’m not defending him to be solely to be contrary, I find these shifts in attitudes, and the responses to them made by the likes of Manning, fascinating, largely because they point to ideas about language, race, class and their intersection. I find this sort of discussion a lot more interesting than posts saying "he's a piece of shit and I'm glad he's dead”.

The Independent obituary is really fascinating on that score. It mirrors a few of my perceptions of him as a comedian and points to the roots of his humour in working class cullture. Part of my resistance to simply dismissing him as a bigot comes because I'm aware he's in a sense emblematic of the white working class - he's a kind of Guardian poster boy for everything that's evil. There's a lot of discourse that paints the white working class as nothing more than pigshit thick and reactionarily racist - and I think you can see some of this going on with Manning and the reaction to him. He's simply another working class racist and all the complexities of his background, the culture he came out of, the reasons he took the positions he did are dismissed. I think he's a more complex figure than a lot of commentary would allow for.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:51 / 19.06.07
Everything I'd say in response to that is summed up here:

"One thing that annoyed me reading that mail comments page was all those bellends making out that manning represented northern WC humour. I'm northern WC, so are most of my IRL friends. I think manning was a hateful, unfunny shit, or at least his act was that. I can't remember anyone I know ever, ever expressing any appreciation for the guy. What a load of fucking bollocks."
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:53 / 19.06.07
I mean, I'm sure he was very nice to animals and chilren, you know? I'm sure if that sense he was a complicated guy, as unique and individual as a snowflake.
 
 
illmatic
12:59 / 19.06.07
Flyboy, I purposely didn't read the Mail comment page, because I know that the views expressed therein - stood up to PC gone mad, spoke the truth, last honest Englishman - would have me putting a gun to my temple.
 
  

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