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Bernard Manning dies

 
  

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Regrettable Juvenilia
13:10 / 19.06.07
My point was that although I don't doubt it happens, since his death I've read far less about Manning that vilifies the racism in his act as a product of white working class culture, and far more that celebrates or apologises for said racism for that reason.
 
 
illmatic
13:17 / 19.06.07
Yeah, fair comment. I take your points.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:27 / 19.06.07
Bernard Manning is/was far less popular with actual Northern working-class people (who are mostly Pakistani, Jamaican and Irish people) than he is with bull-necked, middle-class Northern conservatives who affect a Northern bluster and live in nice new houses with Sky TV...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:32 / 19.06.07
I do find the working class thing very tricky. John the Exploding Boy, late of this parish, identified his ability and inclination to identify "slags" - annoying people who were too sexually active you know what I mean - as a part of his working-class background, of which he was proud. However, I don't think there's anything working-class about misogyny, nor for that matter anything working-class or Northern about racism. My grandfather was an electrician in Liverpool, and he didn't to my knowledge feel that he had to keep up his racist end. My great-grandfather was a merchant seaman, and I don't think he felt that campaigning for equal pay for dockworkers regardless of colour was an act of class betrayal.

The Indie obituary suggests that Manning put in and kept in racist material in defiance of people who were seeking not to tolerate public expressions of racism. I would assume that that would include most of the Manchester trade unions. We talk about "working men's club comedy", but how much of his comedy was actually delivered in working men's clubs? As far as I can see, most of it was done as private hire or at his own, personally owned, club.
 
 
illmatic
13:33 / 19.06.07
Regina, they've got Sky TV and thick necks, you say? Bastards, I bet they never went to University. Probably brought that house through selling cars or something dead common like that.

Flyboy: I really liked The Independent article you linked to as it discussed his racism alongside otber aspects of his life, even presenting it, quite cynically, as almost a marketing choice. It seemed more, you know, three dimensional .... though I can totally see how attempting to have a "3D" discussion ends up feeding into some dodgy areas. I know some of the above makes it sound like I'm excusing some of the worst things Manning said and that wasn't my intention.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:56 / 19.06.07
Mark Lawson in the Indy gives more of a picture of the man's most recent show.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:59 / 19.06.07
That's a reprint from 1990, for the record. However. Ultimately, the dude used language in describing and addressing Black and Asian people with terms associated with racial harrassment, racial violence and racial hatred because he felt like it, and then complained that he didn't get to go on telly. That's a sense of entitlement I'm not really on board with.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:01 / 19.06.07
Regina, they've got Sky TV and thick necks, you say? Bastards, I bet they never went to University. Probably brought that house through selling cars or something dead common like that.

Of course they went to University, to do business and management! University is full of thick-necked people who watch Sky.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:05 / 19.06.07
I think perhaps the thickness of their necks might lead us down some interesting avenues to do with attitudes to class, culture, body shape and how they interact, but perhaps best not to do it here.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:11 / 19.06.07
Or one could just say "oh, piss off, Legs". It's worked before...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:13 / 19.06.07
I understand that the thickness of one's neck could be used as a class slur, but it could also result from expensive gym membership. Also what Fly and Haus said.
 
 
Janean Patience
14:13 / 19.06.07
Bernard Manning is/was far less popular with actual Northern working-class people

The picture that's painted as Bernard as a hero to all those North of Mansfield is false, but he was very, very popular among the working classes in and around Manchester right through the 1970s and 1980s. He was admired for his racism. It was felt, as it always is with right-wingers, that he was speaking truths others were afraid of. And even in the last 15 years or so when there were few who'd defend his racism he was defended for his charity work, his skills as a comic, or simply for being a Northern success.

So yes. Many Northern working-class people hated Bernard Manning. But a huge amount didn't.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
14:22 / 19.06.07
Maybe there's something to be said about the way in which right-wing speech and opinions seem to include the defiant element Janean just mentioned as an essential element, that the abhorrent words and ideas about minorities etc. are what 'real people' 'really think' and would proudly say if they weren't cowed by liberals who don't recognize the threat from or worthlessness of 'others' in our midst.

Apologies for the run-on sentence and sprinkling of scare quotes, but I seem to observe sentiments like this among right-wingnuts along the gamut from Clarkson/Kilroy comedy idiots to authentic Griffin-style hatemongers.
 
 
illmatic
14:27 / 19.06.07
I understand that the thickness of one's neck could be used as a class slur, but it could also result from expensive gym membership

Yes, but when used in conjunction with other signifers of low brow taste like Sky TV, it rather suggests the former reading. The "nice new house" comment put me in mind of the type of comments one hears about "new money", so much more common than old money...

I don't mean to pull you up on too much, but it seemed an exact example of what I was talking about...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:30 / 19.06.07
I don't even know if this needs to be located as class snobbery, does it? It's just not-me snobbery. Pretty people aren't as nice as me, people who didn't do arts degrees aren't as clever as me, people who watch Sky aren't as cultured as me, and so on...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:33 / 19.06.07
Well I just meant how everyone seems to have Sky now, no? Doesn't everyone?
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
14:41 / 19.06.07
oO(Then why include Sky in the description?)

/...pedant, ignore me.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:41 / 19.06.07
I don't, because of Richard Branson.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:47 / 19.06.07
I don't, either, although I think my ariel picks up Sky Three.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
15:33 / 19.06.07
I don't because stealing TV via Bittorrent seems so much more moral than paying Murdoch.

Anyway on topic with regards to Manning I have very mixed feelings - much of the stuff in his act was quite clearly vile, and I wouldn't have wanted to watch it, but equally the extreme grave-spitting hate seems to be a little more complex than a simple correct hatred of bigotry, not so much here, as most people here will challenge bigotry whoever it's coming from, but in some other quarters, most especially round the Guardian's comments if free site, there seems to be a certain willingness to tear into the bigotry of working class Manning in a way that is rarely directed towards middle class and equally abominable Jimmy Carr for instance.

So while I don't begrudge most Lithers there grave dancing, I do think there's something a bit questionable about some of bile directed Manning's way.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:37 / 19.06.07
Oh yes - no deathwish for Sacha Baron Cohen, no credibility.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
15:50 / 19.06.07
I knew I liked Marcus Brigstocke.
 
 
Spaniel
15:51 / 19.06.07
I don't because stealing TV via Bittorrent seems so much more moral than paying Murdoch.

Oooh, a moral basis for torrenting Lost. Yay!
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
17:16 / 19.06.07
That matches my perception of him, really. Though he used racist language in his comedy and defended it, I don't see him as someone with the same visceral hatred and fear of black and Asian people as say, Nick Griffin.

Well, his agent did book him to play the BNP's Red, White and Blue Festival. While there does seem to be some doubt whether Manning himself knew that originally and he did later pull out (at least partly in response to pressure), that at least suggests that there were those close to him in a business sense, who had no problem with pandering to hardcore racists for business reasons.

However, I don't think there's anything working-class about misogyny, nor for that matter anything working-class or Northern about racism.

I'd agree and go slightly further. I think there's a tendency in some, mostly middle class, people working in the media to justify the bigotry of the likes of Manning by pointing to their working class background. With the underlying classist attitude that working class people are stupid and can't be expected to know any better.

We talk about "working men's club comedy", but how much of his comedy was actually delivered in working men's clubs? As far as I can see, most of it was done as private hire or at his own, personally owned, club.

Very little I'd guess. Apart from anything else, a lot of what are generally called "working men's clubs" (which, in itself, I'd see as mostly inaccurate. In my experience most of those clubs are no longer exclusively male) are linked heavily to the Labour Party. Mostly Old Labour people as well. While there might have been a time when the likes of Manning would have been put on by those clubs, I can't see it having happened recently.

The picture that's painted as Bernard as a hero to all those North of Mansfield is false, but he was very, very popular among the working classes in and around Manchester right through the 1970s and 1980s. He was admired for his racism. It was felt, as it always is with right-wingers, that he was speaking truths others were afraid of. And even in the last 15 years or so when there were few who'd defend his racism he was defended for his charity work, his skills as a comic, or simply for being a Northern success.

It might have been the case for a time, but I'm not convinced that it was in those 15 years for you talk about. Firstly, the fact that more and more gigs were being done at his own club suggests that he was having trouble finding bookings, including in the Manchester area. Secondly, I can't find a source for this off the top of my head, but I have heard several times that Manning was having more and more trouble pulling in a decent audience.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:19 / 19.06.07
He did have great timing - everyone will say that over the next few days, and I would join them - except that it is no compliment. Manning had great timing ... yeah, and that mentally ill lad who murdered all those kids at Virginia Tech was a bloody good shot, but that's hardly the point, is it?

Brigstocke fucking rules. Hands off him, Mass, he's MINE!

This is the thing I've been seeing a lot on other boards- "he was a great comic". And yes, in a technical sense, he was- most stand-ups today will say that, but will qualiofy it by saying that a lot of his content was reprehensible. He used his powers for EVIL. That's not a good thing.

The other defence I'm seeing a lot is that he was "of his time". So were a lot of comics. Most of them moved with the times. Whether because the audience had moved with society, or because they now realised themselves that that kind of shit was unacceptable, they did. Manning didn't.

Neither did Jim Davidson.

And DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON JIMMY FUCKING CARR, PLEASE.

(Sorry, bit of a rant, not really aimed at anyone here, but just at the general "mustn't speak ill of the dead" bullshit that I'm seeing all over the place. Which has never made any sense to me. Am I supposed to be nice about Pol Pot now he's six feet under? And more to the point, will I one day have to pretend that Phil Collins isn't a tosser?)

Bernard Manning's finest comedy moment was as an unwitting stooge for Chris Morris. And that's a FUCK of a lot more than he deserves.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:24 / 19.06.07
(For those who, like me, adore Marcus Brigstocke, The Now Show is back this Friday, on which he often appears. Listen in via the website to see if he expands on his thesis)
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:31 / 19.06.07
PLEASE, somebody tell me they have a copy of that Spitting Image sketch where Bernard Manning's about to go on stage and is freaking out because he's run out of people to hate...
 
 
Peach Pie
19:29 / 19.06.07

I always got the *impression* jimmy carr was racist but have never heard him say anything actually racist.
 
 
ghadis
19:30 / 19.06.07
He doesn't like gypsies much if i recall rightly.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
19:53 / 19.06.07
I recall something along those lines also.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:58 / 19.06.07
Oh, I wasn't specifically saying Carr was racist. I've never heard him be racist either. But he's hideously classist, and even THAT's not an issue with me and Carr. I hate him because he's UNBEARABLY SMUG.

UN.

BEARABLY.

SMUG.

I hate him.

I really do.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
20:04 / 19.06.07
To be honest, while I've heard about his Psionic Nurse flavoured comments about Gypsies, I've only ever seen him on adverts for his show - and since those adverts included venemous mockery of women he considers to be overweight I've never felt any need to see any more of him.

But obviously on seeing those adds I have felt an overwhelming urge to smash the TV and then set fire to my own head to destroy all my sensory organs, just to be sure of never catching another glimpse of the man or hearing another word from his foul lips.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:05 / 19.06.07
Do you know, and perhaps this is sharing a bit too much, but whenever they have those hate stories in the tabs about Maxine Carr, I like to mentally replace the word "Maxine" with the word "Jimmy". It's oddly therapeutic.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
20:15 / 19.06.07
I can see how that would work. However I reckon it probably only works if as well as being one of those poor souls, sent Arkham wards by the terrible, unforgettable, sanity-shattering knowledge that Jimmy Carr really exists, one also has to read the kind of papers that run Maxine Carr hate stories. If one otherwise doesn't, I suspect one might just be letting oneself in for an extra dose of desperate horror for the smallest of rewards.
 
 
The Falcon
20:52 / 19.06.07
Not really, all you have to do, prior to purchasing the Independent (I should hope; on-topic, the obit was rather excellent) is run your weary eye across the newsstand for an instant pic of such matters.

Must try the Jimmy Carr trick, actually. Next time.
 
  

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