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Misogyny Watch

 
  

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Blake Head
14:34 / 29.06.07
Without wanting to force this thread to focus on Paris Hilton, and without, I confess, familiarity with the setting or dynamic of the show, this clip of a newscaster refusing to report on Hilton's release is perhaps more remarkable because of the utterly dismissive attitude taken by her colleagues. Whatever one's opinion towards Ms Hilton, it's a fairly reasonable position to take that her troubles aren't newsworthy compared to the ongoing loss of life in Iraq and the political consequences. Now, putting aside the debate of whether it's professional to make quite such a sensational point as attempting to burn the story (as opposed to quietly declining to cover it), the attitude taken by Brzezinski's co-presenters seemed quite astonishing. I'm perhaps more used to British commentators whose seething personal resentments, if any, are generally masked by a cosy amiability, but I digress. Brzezinski's decision was repeatedly mocked, she was physically restrained from destroying her bulletin, her protests were talked over and eventually overlaid with clips of Hilton, and at one point she's (jokingly) addressed as "wench". And... the mind boggles really. The general tone of her co-presenters' was kept at disingenuous throughout, and the overall effect was that they seemed to consider her views trivial: "would you please just do what you're told and report what we tell you to you hysterical woman, while we laugh in your face about your inability to change anything and make two-faced comments about you and the news item in question.”. I don’t think you need to support Brzezinski's actions to think that her colleagues’ hostility was expressed in a particularly unpleasant way.

Maybe Joe Scarborough is like that with everyone, but I just can't imagine a similar dialogue taking place over here where a professional woman's views were so publicly and openly held up as irrelevant. I don't know much about "Morning Joe" except that he's a former Republican congressman who wanted the U.S. to leave the U.N. and who appears fairly obnoxious - I don't know if there's more to it than that mind you, but it's not a good start.
 
 
Liger Null
23:43 / 06.07.07
I don't think it was there. I went through the article trying to work out if it was statutory or not and I couldn't find a reference.

It's in there, it's the fourth paragraph under the heading "Moral Dilemma".

Further down, we find this passage:

"A spokesman for the Judicial Communications Office said Judge Hall would not comment further on what happened in court.

The judge was in the headlines in February when he said compensation to a child sex abuse victim could be used to buy a bicycle to cheer her up."

Italics mine.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:05 / 07.07.07
Pooja Chauhan walked through the Gujarat city of Rajkot in her underwear to protest the police failing to take her complaints against her in laws seriously. Typically there are those who think she should have put up with it but thankfully they are in a minority. Still, police think she's a crazy person.

(links via Metafilter)
 
 
alas
20:39 / 08.07.07
ARRRGH. I just read about that on I blame the patriarchy. And then there's this What's wrong with using beautiful murdered women to sell video games? Can't you take a joke?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:52 / 16.08.07
Ian Rankin is an idiot. I dunno, one of those situations where one opens their mouth, words come out, when they listen back they (hopefully) realise what they said wasn't particularly pleasant?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:12 / 16.08.07
For once, I'm not entirely sure what he said is quite so worthy of that reaction. I'd have to read the full interview at least, to get the context - the bit they quote could be said in a tone that's even admiring.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:33 / 16.08.07
Here's the original interview. It's about half the way down, but sadly there's not much by way of 'context', other than Rankin appears to treat it as though he's breaking some sort of unspoken taboo.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
04:17 / 17.08.07
McDermid clarifies.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:53 / 17.08.07
"I did not even mention Ian's name," she adds.

Is Ian Rankin still an idiot, then?
 
 
Gendudehashadenough
17:02 / 17.08.07
When they did a study of killers in the States, they found the books they had all read were the Bible and Catcher in the Rye... Should we ban them? No. -Rankin

Sorry, but that's probably because everyone repressed the memories of Lord of the Flies and Tom Sawyer.
Idiocy: confirmed. Also, I'm inclined toward agreement with the idea: there is simply no excuse to criticize women for writing about life expereinces that men, by virtue of the fact that they don't have to cope/deal with, are squimish about. It indicates an almost pathological reluctance to even compare the depictions of violence in male AND female authorial works and to further ask questions as to why the views on violence from each perspective are so divorced from one another.


Shakespear, Steinbeck, Miller, Dickens, and Twain.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:36 / 21.08.07
So I thought we could use this space to talk about Misogyny re: white males talking about Muslim women, and how it fits in with racism and white priviledge. I'll start by showing you a fairly common example, this Facebook topic, "Women in Islam", and picking apart the topic starter's, er, "points":

I don't really know how to start this topic because I don't know where to begin.

In other words, Islam is so terrible that it is literally unspeakable. The situation is apparently so dire it allegedly defeats even the poster's ability to start a discussion on the internet - despite this being obviously untrue as he clearly does "begin".

This is the most barbarous aspect of Islam. Women in Islamic communities are treated as slaves and are dehumanized by being made to wear burkas, and not show any of their skin in public, as to keep fresh for their "husbands" (read "Masters").

Note the use of "most barbarous aspect", not "a barbarous aspect". Already the clear point of this topic is not the real suffering of women but the construction of "Islam" as a homogenous barbarity - with the convenient mythic figure of the suffering brown slave woman, the oriental damsel in distress, who needs to be saved. Guess who by?

Women do buy into the lie that they are "special" and "holy," but it isn't true. Phyllis Schafly in the United States in the 80s told women that "the home is a sacred place" as well, in order to kick them out of the public sphere.

So allegedly the women have agency - economic agency, even - in their own suffering, they "buy into" it. Oh, and the idea that a woman is "special" or "holy", that she has religious importance, is brushed off with a wave of the hand; even though, if one really thinks about the ways in which a real respect for women could be brought into being in a strongly religious society, their religious importance is perhaps one way in which they could claim representative and political legitimacy (if that "religious importance" underwent a serious metamorphosis, of course). Of course, our poster doesn't care about this, because bettering the lot of women is not his real objective.

There is no "marriage" in Islam. It is bondage. Marriages are made almost completely without the "wife's" consent and she is often duped into it.

According to this poster's ideology, what Islam calls "marriages" and "wives" are not anything of the sort, they are barbaric forced unions and unwilling victims. Which suggests that there is, on the other hand, in other places, essentially among anyone non-Muslim, a real marriage - marriage, as opposed to "marriage" - which is enlightened, liberal, not bondage, etcetera - which of course anyone who has read feminism will disagree with. The American or European marriage is not something to be complacent about.

It is on this topic where I lose all respect for Islam.

In other words, the acheivements of 20+ different countries, over a third of the Earth's surface, since the 7th century AD - including philosophy, scholarship, architecture, literature, charities, early political reform and multi-faith adminisitration - are reduced to nothing, are devalued, by the treatment of women by certain Islamic governments, groups and ideologies (or in our poster's logic, "By Islam"). To some extent, I would be happy to accept this appraisal of the ill-treatment of women ongoing among all states and calling the "civilized" nature of those states into question, if the same was said about "Christianity", and in fact every state on every continent ever, with a few exceptions in isolated places and periods. It is not said of these, of course, even though it very well could be.

And then our delightful poster ends with the unrelated and unsourced quote:

"Behead those who say Islam is violent"

You can read the thread for a lot of other well-placed criticisms; it's not too face-stabbish. What I really want to point out is how the bait-and-switch works here: the poster perhaps really does care about the lot of women, but either

a) is, in anger at the ill-treatment, pulled into the orbit of Imperialist ideology which presents "Islam" as a state more worthy of criticism than anything in the West, so that the poster's feminism is bought out by the Empire, or

b) cares about the ill-treatment of women only in so far as it can be used to justify violence towards the Islamic "other"; the suffering woman is a tool, or a bargaining chip.

Whichever one of these priorities is in play, we can see how easy it is to fall into such a trap. The things the Taliban do to women are pointless and repulsive, but if we start throwing around the word Barbarian we locate this cruelty within the Afghan/Islamic male, when in fact it is rooted in the CIA which funded him and the economic hardship - the poverty and desert conditions - which prevail in Afghanistan and make life there hard and real education all but impossible.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:04 / 22.08.07
Is there a way to see this topic without having a Facebook account?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:08 / 22.08.07
I'm not sure. I could always paste the whole thing on a separate thread here, maybe somewhere down in creation, for reference.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
15:55 / 22.08.07
The things the Taliban do to women are pointless and repulsive, but if we start throwing around the word Barbarian we locate this cruelty within the Afghan/Islamic male, when in fact it is rooted in the CIA which funded him and the economic hardship - the poverty and desert conditions - which prevail in Afghanistan and make life there hard and real education all but impossible.

I find this statement very uncomfortable reading, insofar as it seems to presume that pointless and repulsive cruelty to women is an inevitable response to the American government's funding and training of the Mujahideen, through the Pakistani secret service, from 1979-89, and the economic hardships which the Soviet War in Afghanistan, and the country's relatively tough-to-farm land, brought. (As a side note, I notice that you make not mention of the occupation by the Soviet Army, which was responsible for some 600,000-2 million Afghan deaths, as in any way feeding into anything, which is a little odd to say the least, especially when you are so keen to collar the other Superpower). Surely, despite American funding / training of the Mujahideen and economic hardship there is still the small matter of the individual Afghan man's ability to choose to treat women in an equitable manner? To deny this is to deny agency to Afghan men, which is pretty problematic. To put it another way, you have swapped 'Islam' for 'America/economic hardship' as the worm in the Afghan male's mind, a move that supports a certain simplisitic political reading of the situation but does not actually attribute one jot of agency, or responsibility, to one single resident of that nation. This smacks, frankly, of border-line racism that maintains that 'Orientals', unlike Westerners, cannot exercise even a semblance of free will.

I am not defending American activities in Afghanistan during the '80s (nor, for that matter, British and Russian activities in the 19th Century, or Soviet activities in the late 20th C). Similarly, I am not defending the negative impact Islam has (like Christianity, Judaism, and a host of other faiths) in some circumstances had on the lot of women - it would be intellectually dishonest to do so. There remains, though, the question of moral choice, even in the least ideal of circumstances. Perhaps you just find the idea of Afghan men making a negative choice unpalatable, and so seek to position them merely as the sock puppets of forces beyond their control?
 
 
GarbageGnome
17:29 / 22.08.07
You raise a very complicated point Magick. Lets reason on this for a second. You brought up the idea of Man's Free Will. Certainly a Afghani male has the free choice to beat his wife when his dinner is cold, or just scream at her, or perhaps just kiss her on the cheek and go about his merry way.

The problem I see with putting responsibility on the Afghani male is that their mindset and value system are totally alien to such as us and his free will is likewise changed. He is raised from birth to believe that it is acceptable to beat your wife, or have his way with her at his leisure. To him, this does not represent a moral choice at all, his morals are such that this is not a conflict.

So, rather then lay the blame at the feet of the Western world, or at the feet of the Afghani male, I'd rather blame the system of morals in Afghanistan. The actions of the Western world and the choices of Afghani males all do play some part, there is no doubt about that. However, this system of morals is what needs to be changed. Rather then blaming the actions of the Western World, which can't be changed unless you have a time machine. Or blame the free will of Afghani men, which can't be changed unless you have a mass-area-of-effect mind control device and can make Afghani men stop acting in accordance with their moral system. Instead you must look to the root of this, and try to remove or modify the system so that these actions are no longer the norm.
 
 
This Sunday
17:45 / 22.08.07
Fellow 'lithers, a small experiment. Below, a quote, with a single word swapped for another and everything else intact.

The problem I see with putting responsibility on the American male is that their mindset and value system are totally alien to such as us and his free will is likewise changed. He is raised from birth to believe that it is acceptable to beat your wife, or have his way with her at his leisure. To him, this does not represent a moral choice at all, his morals are such that this is not a conflict.

Add a corollary of 'as long as he doesn't mention it too loud in public' and it reads pretty straight, doesn't it?

If I hadn't seen at least three women covering up bruises with makeup just running errands this morning, I might not feel the need to post that, and the fact my reflex connection was to something like the above goes to show I may not have the healthiest associations, mindset, or value system, myself.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
18:23 / 22.08.07
I can see where you're going with this, ADN, and it's a fair point as far as it goes. Yes, there are many, many men in the West who have been brought up to believe (or have subsequently developed the belief, under influences other than their family) that it is OK to beat women, with, as you say, the corallary of a PR wall of silence in certain contexts.

That said, I'm wondering where that gets us re: Afghanistan? Does the presence of (violent) misogyny in the West prevent those of us from it from addressing its deeper entrenchment and wider practice in Afghanistan? Is it really useful to draw an equivalence between the two situations, with their very different legal structures, and (outside of the Karzai controlled areas, in which Women may vote and 28% of MPs are women) availability of political enfranchisement etc? Must you and I live in a Utopia before we can say that life for women in much of Afghanistan is far, far worse than it is in much of the West?

Let's take another example of a Muslim-majority state whose legal system is informed (like that in many areas of Afghanistan) by Shariah law: Saudi Arabia. Some delightful facts from Amnesty here

This is a nation in which rape can only be proven by the testimony of four male witnesses. If rape is not proven to have been committed, the accused is generally charged with adultery, which is punishable by death by stoning if the accused was married, and by flogging if the accused was single. My horror at this is nothing to do with some subterranean desire to justify violence against an Islamic 'Other' to fulfill an Imperial hunger. It's horror that half the population on an entire nation are living as, essentially, slaves.
 
 
GarbageGnome
18:27 / 22.08.07
I'm unsure what your getting at. Are you trying to say the because the West has a minority of men who have been led to believe that abusing women is okay, that we are just as bad as Afghanistan? I fail to see how that is possible.
 
 
This Sunday
18:32 / 22.08.07
For me, it's just a matter of not positioning anything as excusable by reasons of culture. 'It's their culture' or 'was their culture' is no defense. Of anything. Because there's always that uncomfortable example standing off in the wings who's not being an asshole that make the universality implausible and inevitability unworkable.

Approaching the subject, talking about it or doing something about it, does not have to stop and is in no real way hindered by accepting that other people, and even perhaps our own people or ourselves may also be at fault. It's simply not an either/or position, which is what the 'culture' excuse gets you, by making it us/them.

It isn't a matter of adjusting someone else, somewhere else. To quote Gayatri Spivak, 'the whole world needs to grow up.' We've all room for improvement, whether you agree with cleaning up your own neighborhood first or taking it to another country and cleaning them up before what you can see from your porch, we ought to be able to agree there's work to be done everywhere.
 
 
This Sunday
18:40 / 22.08.07
Well, excising this 'west/east' business, which is absurd, since you're mostly talking cultures rooted in the Eastern Hemisphere, anyway, do you really think it's the minority of men? Or that, if you can use 'culture' to excuse another person/group's actions, that you can't use it to explain away those of your own? If it's not acceptable from one, it's not acceptable from the other, to any degree. This isn't a matter of scale, for me, so much as a matter of acknowledging that the fundamental elements at work are really fucking wrong and inexcusable. The end. The farthest extremes and the little things like snotty sexist comments or skewed hiring pactices, work or social behaviour, all come out of the same roots. So, to the roots, then, rather than trimming some branches, yeah?

The other end is pointing at the branches way over that way, and ignoring the ones we're suspended from, which makes no sense to me.

(Caveat, I'm in a bitter mood today. Somebody more level-headed may want to take this over. I'm not going to disagree with anything I've posted, but I may wish I'd been quieter about it.)
 
 
GarbageGnome
19:09 / 22.08.07
As for if I believe its the minority of men who abuse their wives in America? Yes, I do. If you can show me some proof that I'm wrong I'd be more then willing to admit your point.

And I don't use the "culture" angle to excuse any act of domestic violence in America. America as a majority has said that domestic abuse is wrong, it is a punishable criminal offense. People who do it in America are aware that it is not acceptable. Other countries don't consider it wrong, and so the people there have no reason to think what they are doing is wrong. And thus have no reason to stop, or even think about stopping.

And if you think that snotty sexist comments are just as bad as being stoned to death for being a victim of rape?..I'm afraid I'm lost. Just because a group of construction workers catcalls a pretty woman as she walks by, doesn't mean that we have to fix things like that BEFORE we try to help women who are being stoned to death.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
19:15 / 22.08.07
So, to the roots, then, rather than trimming some branches, yeah?

Well, yes, ADN, but if there's an opportunity to trim the branch of, say, Saudi rape law, or South Dakota abortion law, then it's very much worth doing. Also, while there is of course always an exception in any given situation, I wonder if, were you a woman forced at gunpoint to marry, seemingly without coercion, a randomly selected man from any country of your choosing, you'd plump for a Saudi or, say, a Swede, or a Mosuo?

(Caveat, John Rawls is much, much better at these kind of thought experiments than me).
 
 
This Sunday
19:16 / 22.08.07
Minority who believe it's okeh or minority who do? Because I thought we were talking about those who think it's okeh, or sometimes appropriate to smack a woman around, for educational or hysteria-reducing purposes. And it depends on the level of violent behaviour you consider inappropriate or attention-worthy, too. Some folks may put in an argument against something that leaves big facial scars, but find physical handling (steering someone bodily, holding them in place) fine, et cetera.

Secondly, I am at no point claiming one act of misogyny is as bad or equal to another, just that the root causes are generally the same. It's the roots that need work; the branches, from the lightest to the worst, are symptoms.
 
 
This Sunday
19:22 / 22.08.07
X-post with myself but is "were you a woman forced at gunpoint to marry, seemingly without coercion, a randomly selected man from any country of your choosing, you'd plump for a Saudi or, say, a Swede, or a Mosuo?" not the most racist thing of today's Barbelith? Or am I totally misreading? And how is this not illustrating my point that the root of the problem is the problem. See, no matter what guy this fictional if-I-was chooses, the issue would be that someone's put a gun to my head, and presumably ficto-me's new hubby is in on this.
 
 
GarbageGnome
19:26 / 22.08.07
So, if your saying they all have the same root, what in your opinion, is the root? If not the culture which embraces the act as acceptable.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:46 / 22.08.07
Yes, Magick Johnson/ATHYRIO/fable, I too would like to see that comment unpacked a bit please.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
20:01 / 22.08.07
ADN, perhaps I'm repeating myself, but your root / branch argument does seem a little off. Arguably, the most profound impact feminism has had upon inequality has all been at 'branch' level - increased political franchise, an increase in woman-friendly laws etc. etc. These things in turn impact on the 'roots' which, after all, are not the quite the purely natural things of your metaphor but are culturally conditioned.

Re: the thought experiment. The Swede in question is any ethnicity you might imagine him to be (although statistically an ethnic Swede is most likely, followed by a Finn, Slav, Persian, Arab, Turk, Sami and Roma, among others). The Saudi is, according to the citizenship requirements of that nation, ethnically Arab, but that's not significant in and of itself. The Mosuo is a member of a distinct ethnic group found in the Tibetan Himalayas, the members of whom live overwhelmingly in what some anthropologists identify as matriarchal communities. The point here is not race, but culture, and which culture one would choose to live in as a woman when it came down to it.

As to the thought experiment llustrating [your] point that the root of the problem is the problem, let me try to clarify it:

1) ASN wakes up one morning as a woman.
2) Entity X holds gun to ASN's head, and demands that ASN pick a randomly selected man from any nation on the planet to marry, on pain of death. This man will know nothing of Entity X's coercion of ASN - indeed he will think that ASN has entered into the marriage willingly, a thought that Entity X will at no point allow ASN to contradict.
3) ASN picks nationality of hubby.

A rather poor and even intellectually regrettable thought experiment it may be (see my caveat above), but I don't believe it is racist, or gives succour to men who would wish to see a woman enslaved.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
20:03 / 22.08.07
Hate to post twice in a row, but wanted to apologise to ADN for the multiple 'ASN' typos above.
 
 
This Sunday
23:26 / 22.08.07
Just wondering (more sharply than might have been beneficial) that if the issue were how different or alien 'their' culture is, compared to 'ours', how come the misogyny still exists and the real difference seems to be one of public face or intensity? It doesn't seem a valid line of consideration, to me. If the misogyny were an effect of something entirely alien to 'our' culture, we wouldn't have any. Rape, correctional violence, and physically steering someone about with a firm grip all share some central misogynistic elements.

As to the thought experiment, (a) it feels to me like I'd be doing actual women a bit of a disservice to be playing 'what if I were' as well as turning real life oppression into a gun-to-head metaphor. As to the actual situation(s) of actual women? I'd have no way to keep all the variables in mind or fictionalize all the experiential data, and again, it's a bit rude-seeming to try. I mean, I'd get it wrong and my male-headedness would mess it all up anyway, skew the interpretation. With the gun to head metaphor, on its own, I'm stuck being more concerned with the gun, who's holding it to my head, and so forth. Kills the experiment, for me, and makes me wonder why it wouldn't be better just to ask a, y'know, woman.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
00:01 / 23.08.07
the real difference seems to be one of public face or intensity? It doesn't seem a valid line of consideration, to me

Yes, misogyny exists in every single human culture. Yes, its intensity differs. Are you saying it is not worth exploring why this intensity differs so? Is it because - perhaps uncomfortably for members of some political persuasions - a possible answer is that the key instances of women's emancipation have taken place against a backdrop of, and were driven by, post-Enlightenment secularism, democracy, and capitalism?

As to your comments on the thought experiment thing, I'll state, for the third time, that it wasn't the most elegant of devices with which to prompt discussion. It certainly left plenty of room for you to demonstrate a very slinky kind of relativism. Which is fine, and all very commendable in terms of pointing out the ultimate impossibility of speaking for anybody but oneself. Problem is, such demonstrations are very easy, and never actually get anything done that might, y'know, improve the lot of the oppressed.

Saudi Arabia is effectively an aparthied regime. Half of its population are subject to different laws from the other, and half of them have no government-sanctioned political voice. I wonder, if this aparthied involved, say, whites and blacks, whether you'd be quite so keen to point that - hey! - thing's aren't 100% tickety boo in the West in terms of racial parity? Chances are that you, and a great number of other people, would be too busy marching on the Saudi Embassy.
 
 
This Sunday
00:33 / 23.08.07
It can't be an issue of 'alienness', that's all. Any more than the difference between an ounce of iron and a ton are one, not of scale, but of being 'totally alien' to one another. We're all just people, and frankly, I don't buy the east/west break. Never have. East of what? West of what? Is all East, East and all West (of something), West without variables or levels? Does one find culture/perspective getting progressively east-ier geographically? When does East stop being Orientalism and become truly East?

It's like women from Venus and men from Mars (which, no one here is doing, but it's a nonracial/non-ethnic binary alienation trope, purely for example). No. It doesn't help anything to pretend we're alien to each other or from different planes of existence. If it were 'totally alien' there wouldn't be a whole lot in common. The commonality, which I'm posing is an underlying similarity of thought among many men that women are (a) inferior and (b) sometimes in need of being physically coerced/directed by male actions differentiated only by a matter of scale, disables any notion that one culture is 'totally alien' from the other, and further concerned that there aren't just these two East and West cultures, but in fact a variety, with degrees of differences in practice and belief. 'Totally alien' is dehumanizing, and from my perspective nonfunctional as a start-point for a train of consideration.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:29 / 23.08.07
Oh FFS.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:33 / 23.08.07
Quite.

Magick Johnson - I realise that this is probably wasted words, but have you considered that if you have put a gun to a woman's head and demanded she marry somebody, you have already made a pretty strong statement about that woman's role and entitlement to freedom? Your imagery is rather telling.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
11:53 / 23.08.07
Your imagery is rather telling

Why of course! Silly of me not to realise it before. When I wrote upthread about my horror at violence against, and coercion of, women what I really meant was that I'd like to press the cold muzzle of a .45 against each and every one of their temples, and force them into matrimony against their will. That, after all, will learn 'em. Good job I've got you to tell me what I really mean, or I might just have mistaken myself for somebody who abhors misogyny in any form! Now that you've shattered my reality tunnel, I can kick back and relax in my sweat-stained Superman pajamas, while manipulating myself to issue with one hand, while using the other to stroke the soft, soft fur of a Real Life Tiger.

Or let's put it another way. It's good practice on Barbelith, when coming across a statement that you find somewhat difficult, not to ascribe motives to the person who made it until you've asked them first. You wouldn't like it, I suspect, if I were to claim that your response to my post was motivated less by a concern for the problem of misogyny than by a desire for you to feel like the biggest boy in the school yard.

I've mentioned upthread three times now that I'm no great fan of my thought experiment, and I can see that, especially with a little bad faith, it could be construed as problematic. To anybody I have offended, you have my apologies. However, Haus, it seems to me that you have (deliberately?) misread the entirely artificial device of my Entity X putting a gun to magically-gender-reassigned ADN's head as a male power fantasy. If one applied a similar reading to the thought experiment John Rawls uses to establish his Theory of Justice, one would conclude that he was an evil genius bent on wiping the memories of the entire human species. Which would be a bit daft, really.

It's important, I agree, to challenge misogyny wherever you perceive it. However, it's also important to accept that your radar isn't perfect. I have no idea what your contribution to the battle against discrimination is off Barbelith, I only hope that you are as dedicated a footsoldier out there as you are in here, even if you now and then mis-ascribe problematic attitudes in what I can only imagine is your zeal to build a better, more equitable world.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:41 / 23.08.07
I don't see any motives being ascribed to you, MJ. What I saw was a badly flawed and frankly deeply icky bit of imagery, which you then got called on. Why construct a thought experiment around a woman being forced to marry some guy at gunpoint? Why not a thought experiment which went "if, for some unknown reason, you were a woman who found herself having to choose between living in X, Y or Z cultures..." or even better, no such thought experiment at all, but a rational look at what women living in those cultures and their allies are saying about them.
 
  

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