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Misogyny Watch

 
  

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All Acting Regiment
08:17 / 11.06.07
A rolling thread for talking about things that may or may not be sexist against women, in the media, web, etcetera. There's a lot of this around at the moment. I thought we could flag up instances here, discuss them, and if they need a new thread start one.

I want to start here by bringing up the issue of Paris Hilton's going to jail, and the fairly unpleasant hoo-raying of this incarceration by people who should probably know better. Notice Lenin's Tomb, usually a very good blog, has a post comparing Hilton's imprisonment with the girl getting kicked out of Big Brother - if you look in the comments box you see what I mean about the cheerleading (although it's fine to gloat about the racist idiot getting thrown off TV)?

People mock the fact that this woman is oging to an extremely nasty place, where lots of extremely nasty things might well happen to her...and, meanwhile, war-criminals and tax-dodgers go free.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:07 / 11.06.07
One of the things patriachy is really good at - one of the things it's a genius at, really, is setting up double binds. What I mean by this is that in a patriachal system both the celebration and vilification of the same prominent female figure can be done in a misogynistic way that comes naturally. And it really does come naturally - misogynistic ideas are so ingrained in the way we're taught to think that it's very easy for people to slip into misogynistic ways of thinking not only entirely unconsciously, but even while they think they're being feminist. It would be, while still annoying, a lot easier if I just meant those alterna-dude haterz who think they're being feminist by calling mainstream pop singers airheads or bimbos, but I think this can happen even to more credible and genuine actual feminists*.

What makes things really complicated and thorny is that I think it is possible to offer a genuinely feminist critique of the celebration of Paris Hilton, since a lot of that celebration does have a misogynistic element. Equally it's certainly possible to critique the celebration of her in other valid political ways - although my caveat there as ever is to watch and see if the people offering such critiques also apply the same standards to the celebrities they like - they rarely do.

*There was a thread about this once, but interestingly it contains more diversions and in-fighting than I remember - obviously I do have slightly rose-tinted glasses about the board's past... It's a fascinating subject about which I am always slightly cautious to enter into discussion, since my identity as basically heterosexual, white and male makes trying to talk about occasions in which various types of feminism might fall into misogyny quite... problematic.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:39 / 11.06.07
Aye. I also want to avoid slipping into "stupid posh girl" slurs for Emily ... the chances are she's been inculcated with her dodgy opinions from a very young age, plus the effect of the dominant ideology on everyone - the same dominant ideology that says a young woman like Emily can't be too concerned about politics, having to restrict herself to quantifying, and reifying: "Team Emily". The only strength she's allowed is: "Team Emily doesn't like benefit cheats" - or people with a different coloured skin.

This doesn't make what she's done okay, of course.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:40 / 11.06.07
I'd like to see a proper feminist critique of the way Paris Hilton is celebrated, actually... are there any out there?
 
 
stabbystabby
22:05 / 11.06.07
People mock the fact that this woman is oging to an extremely nasty place, where lots of extremely nasty things might well happen to her...and, meanwhile, war-criminals and tax-dodgers go free.

not to deny the misogynist nature of a lot of the hate towards Paris (as Marcotte notes, the hatred of Paris is often focussed on her one positive trait - a relaxed attitude towards sex) but i believe Lenin is cheering the fact that, for once, a rich celebrity was unable to pay zir way out of jail. yes, she's going to an extremely nasty place (though, they've done everything possible to make it not nasty) but so does everybody else who can't afford high priced lawyers, often for far less serious crimes.

incidentally, a number of tax dodgers have gone to jail recently - Ken Hovind, etc. war criminals, well, that's another story.
 
 
Thorn Davis
07:35 / 12.06.07
I was under the impression that the glee with which people are watching Paris get sent to the slammer stems from the spectacle of watching someone whose public persona is defined by vanity, privilege and a lack of humility suddenly be treated as though they were just anyone else in the world. It seemed to me to be the schadenfreude of watching someone who appeared to think they were invincible suddenly humiliated and thrown down with the rest of us. It's not an pretty emotion, and probably not one that needs nurturing, but I don't see it as misogynist. It doesn't seem any different to the hand clapping fascination that greeted Mel Gibson when he disgraced himself, or the chorus of laughter that was raised when Jim Davidson was investigated for tax fraud (not as loud, but he's hardly on the same level of celebrity), and the smile that appeared on the face of every YouTube viewer who saw that clip of Kevin Federline getting dumped by text message. I don't see why this instance is so different from those.
 
 
Olulabelle
07:53 / 12.06.07
I think the delight I've seen amongst people on the internet and in the papers is more to do with the fact that it's Paris going to prison (the funny thing seems to be the idea of Paris in prison) rather than what Paris represents, i.e. rich celebrity and that thing having to face the same consequences as you or I.

I think it's interesting that a lot of women dislike Paris Hilton (although I do think that's changing). There doesn't appear to be the same volume of female hatred for Brittany or Lindsey Lohan, both of whom have also shown a relaxed attitude to sex and have appeared with their knickers off in public.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:22 / 12.06.07
I've found this a lot more funny than I probably should, given that I'm opposed to custodial sentences generally. The amusement for me came from seeing someone who'd acted in a way that would get you or I banged up in a heartbeat and then been given every possible opportunity to stay out of gaol end up there, despite all the influence of her wealth, her name, and her social standing. Rich people ending up in prison just amuses me. I doubt very much that she's going to be exposed to any real personal risk in there, unlike other women in prison. She's not going to get her nose broken by the guards and she's not going to die of a preventable disease because she was refused healthcare. She'll get the kid-gloves treatment all the way down the line.

Yeah, I completely agree that some of the commentary has been pretty nauseating. But some of the commentary on women in the news is always nauseating. If you can see us, we must be doing something wrong, so we're fair game for attack. If we're succeeding, we're taking a job away from a man. If we're having sex, we're sluts. Not having sex, evil cockteasing bitches. We get raped and we were asking for it. We get murdered and it's our own faults for not being perfect.

I see at least as much misogyny all this "Paris is too pretty for prison!" crap from her supporters. Yeah, we must prevent young conventionally attractive heiresses from coming into contact with the horrid rough prison system at all costs. Never mind all the other women who get thrown in a cage to rot for fiddling little offences, never mind the abuse, the denial of healthcare, the families ripped apart. Save the pretty lady!
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:49 / 12.06.07
Lenin's coverage of Paris Hilton is some of the least misogynistic I've seen. Look at this BBC article and what it chooses to focus on. Despite this person having been the star of a popular TV show for five seasons the article is almost entirely about Hilton's sex tape and her money. The media perception is not that she is a person but an object, so when she is upset because she is going to jail (which anyone has the right to be and would be) that upset is presented as the hysteria of a spoilt child and not the fear of a woman. None of us can avoid falling into the trap that's been laid around Paris Hilton, none of us can fail to be sexist towards her because we know absolutely nothing beyond that sexism. I actually find the mythology that's been built up around her horrifying and damaging.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:54 / 12.06.07
I think it is possible to offer a genuinely feminist critique of the celebration of Paris Hilton, since a lot of that celebration does have a misogynistic element.

The problem with this is 1)we do not know how complicit Paris Hilton is in the construction of her own image, which we know is misogynistic and 2)Hilton does not aggressively rail against her own image (hence 1) in the way that a figure like Jordan might so there is no clear delineation between person and media representation. How then do you critique the response and celebration of that image?
 
 
Olulabelle
10:02 / 12.06.07
TtS, yes. I'm very glad Paris is actually going to prison but I'm glad because the law says that the punishment for what she did involves going to prison and it should apply to her in the same way as it applies to anyone else. I was angry that for a while it appeared she might get out of it on the basis of her celebrity and I think I would have applied that anger to any celebrity trying to avoid a custodial sentence that had been passed, regardless of gender. Paris is ultra-famous in a specifically tabloid way and in a way which very rarely happen to men. Paris is the sort of woman we see in Now and Heat, we see pictures of her with a spot or cellulite which are celebrated where we don't see such pictures of male celebrity. Celebrities like Brad Pitt and David Beckham are also tabloid fodder, but very rarely are those pictures celebrating or rejoicing in faults or flaws. Paris has the kind of media coverage particular to young beautiful women.

I do agree TtS that nothing is going to happen to her in the way it might/is likely it might to an ordinary woman undergoing a custodial sentence and really the fear she appears to be showing is probably based on living without her priviledges for a month rather than a genuine fear of being attacked, for example.

But delighting in her clearly genuine distress is forgetting that she is a creation of modern day society's attitude towards female beauty and youth combined with money and fame. Without the clear desire for gossip about such women, such women would not exist. Without us all reading about her, Paris would just be a wealthy young woman, and I think in some ways society holds some sort of responsibility towards her because of that. I do see that she is spoilt and silly and all those things, but I also think that part of the way she behaves (and which this custodial sentence is a result of) is because she is primed to behave in that way simply by dint of the celebrity status she has, one which has come from the public's obsession with her.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:07 / 12.06.07
Well, that's why I said a critique of the celebration of her, rather than Paris Hilton herself. In much the same way I think people are either being fooled or fooling themselves if they think there's any kind of class war victory going on because one rich person is going to jail for a few days. Actual power structures are not being affected one iota. Given that, what is there to be celebrated? It seems a bit odd to celebrate this purely on the basis that it's preferable to Paris Hilton or another celebrity committing a crime and not receiving a jail sentence...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
10:15 / 12.06.07
What's bizarre about this is that we're talking about a custodial sentence of less than a month, and one, what's more, that's only going to boost her profile and bank balance once she's free to tell all to her ghost-writer. If she'd just held up her hands and done the time I'm not sure if any of this would be happening. In fact she'd quite conceivably be a national heroine by now. I don't doubt that La Hilton's terrified (I've seen 'Oz', so I would be too) but doesn't that say more about what seems to the generally-accepted view of the US prison system (i.e. that the least of your worries is being locked up for twenty three hours a day) than it does anything else?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:31 / 12.06.07
If she'd just held up her hands and done the time I'm not sure if any of this would be happening.

Yeah, I actually started out being a lot more sympathetic when she reported to the prison a couple of days early. I think a lot of people were. The feeding frenzy would have been more muted if she hadn't tried to get out again less than a week later.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
10:47 / 12.06.07
Despite this person having been the star of a popular TV show for five seasons the article is almost entirely about Hilton's sex tape and her money.

Yeah, this is something that seems a bit bewildering about the coverage La Hilton usually gets, the assumption that she's famous for doing nothing. Aaide from the TV show in question, she's recorded an album, appeared in any number of modeling campaigns, ghost-written a novel, etc, etc. She may well be famous for doing nothing good, but that's hardly the same thing. I think in her position, I'd just sit around chasing the dragon in front of the telly all day, vaguely toying with the idea of maybe opening a night club at some point - perhaps La Hilton now wishes that's what she'd done herself, but whatever else she is, she's hardly idle rich. I suppose one could even argue that she's occupying a necessary role in US society, as the kind of pantomime national hate figure/punching bag that seems to be required there these days, and that in this respect she's making a noble, if arguably unconscious, sacrifice for the good of her country's general sense of well-being.

It'd be boring to suggest that the American media, and therefore the People, might more usefully be focusing their attention on events in the White House, so I'm not going to.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
12:52 / 12.06.07
The feeding frenzy would have been more muted if she hadn't tried to get out again less than a week later.

Well, yes, butI wonder if any of her fellow prisoners would blame her for doing anything she could to leave there as fast as humanly possible? The rehabilitation model as it applies to incarceration having apparently been abandoned, in Britain, up to a point, but in the States especially. I'm guessing (and long may I live to do so) that while you might start out your US jail term with some idea of doing penance, the realisation soon hits that you're in the hands of a (private, often) company that has no interest in making your time there anything other than as hellish as possible. And that you're locked up with hundreds of other people in much the same situation, some of whom may have extremely dangerous sociopathic tendencies (whatever they're officially in there for) these being tendencies which are hardly likely to be reduced by the experience of living in a situation where the suicide rate seems to dramaticaly escalate, on a day-to-day basis.

I'm not sure if anyone, however ashamed they were of their behaviour, would want to stick around.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:42 / 12.06.07
I was under the impression that the glee with which people are watching Paris get sent to the slammer stems from the spectacle of watching someone whose public persona is defined by vanity, privilege and a lack of humility suddenly be treated as though they were just anyone else in the world. It seemed to me to be the schadenfreude of watching someone who appeared to think they were invincible suddenly humiliated and thrown down with the rest of us. It's not an pretty emotion, and probably not one that needs nurturing, but I don't see it as misogynist.

The misogyny comes from the way she's talked about. Yes, there is a level on which all occasions of a rich person getting sent down, whatever their gender, make "the rest of us" gleeful, which is why we like tragedies - but in the case of Paris there's a huge ammount of misogyny in that people are saying "serves her right for making money from being slut!" without even considering that, as AG says, she has done a whole bunch of other stuff besides having her sex tape shown to the public without her intention, and without considering how sexist it is to applaud a woman's being punished for too much sex.
 
 
sleazenation
17:29 / 12.06.07
Is there a chance of this topic moving away from the woes of Paris Hilton?

It's just I think there is larger and potentially more interesting thread to be had here that is in danger of becoming swamping in the cult of Paris Hilton...
 
 
sleazenation
17:45 / 12.06.07
For example, There is the case of Katie Hopkins who has apparently failed her annual probationary review it would seem as a result of revelations about her sex life...

Hopkins is also a character who has been villified by the public and, arguably, discriminated against because of her sex.

What do you think?
 
 
Thorn Davis
09:25 / 13.06.07

I think I'd like to hear the argument about how she's been discriminated against because of her sex. Also, isn't the idea that she was sacked due to revelations about her sex life conjecture on your part? It does mention her tabloid interview in the article, but it doesn't say that's why she was sacked. Even if it was, getting binned by your employers for a tabloid sex story isn't something that only happens to women - Angus Deayton springs to mind. While I think it's admirable to be vigilant for examples of sexism, I think there is a danger that ascribing every response people have to fortunes of someone in the public eye as "just because she's a woman" diminishes their status as an individual and ends up feeding back in to a culture of misogyny.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:05 / 13.06.07
Dislike wasn't directed at Katie Hopkins because she is female but because she was so horrible about everyone she worked with on The Apprentice. We have no idea why she's been fired but disrepute is a sacking offence and she did talk about her current job (which she was taking unpaid leave from) quite a lot so I'm not sure she'd win unfair dismissal even if she took it to tribunal. Basically I don't think it's anything to do with her being a woman.
 
 
sleazenation
20:13 / 13.06.07
getting binned by your employers for a tabloid sex story isn't something that only happens to women - Angus Deayton springs to mind.

Only Deayton wasn't sacked after the initial reports - he was merely given a slap on the wrist and his salery was reduced - it was only when further revelations were published 5 months or so later that he got the boot.

But Deayton's case is probably too different from Kate Hopkin's as to be in anyway useful. Maybe Katie's herself isn't such a great exemplar case either...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:12 / 14.06.07
We could also talk about the effect we've mentioned over in Urgh Fuck about how certain people suddenly turn feminist when it suits them, i.e. when it means they can get a pop at Muslims. Although for evidence I'd have to link to the BBCs "have your say" archives, which I don't want to do. I beleive there's similar idiocy from the Guardian.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:34 / 21.06.07
Well, now that Big Brother is underway, it's time for the usual parade of bared female contestants in the tabloids. This is pretty horrible for all sorts of reasons, but I'm particularly wondering if anyone has anything to say about Emily's future - I mean, she's now famous for two things, namely being racist and being naked. Will this make it impossible for her to live? Or am I being over-concerned about a priviledged person?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:10 / 25.06.07
So, it's okay to rape someone if they're dressed provocatively?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
14:55 / 25.06.07
Concerning BB's Emily, here are four words I thought I'd never type on Barbelith: According to Heat magazine...

She's had two death threats, has been crying 'non-stop', her mother called her 'stupid', she can't leave the house and now three people from her past have come forward with stories of other racist incidents. Apparently she considered the word 'a term of affection' (wow... just...wow) and uses it 'rather loosely' among her black and white friends.
She'll have a hard time of things, sure, and won't get to do the usual post-BB circuit of lad mags and university balls, though with white Britain's current racial attitudes ('It's just a word' and other inaneities) I doubt she'll come to any real harm and a year or so from now she'll live life much as she did before BB.
Forgive my ignorance of the whole event, but where's the misogyny angle here?
 
 
Blake Head
15:12 / 25.06.07
I was just about to urghfuck that article Anna when I saw your link here.

Is it just me or does the wording of the article suggest that (not just because they were "dressed provocatively") it would have been acceptable for these two men to have attacked a young female in a park and subjected her to sexual assault(s) if only she was 16 rather than just (allegedly) appearing to be so? Because while we're against child abuse, raping women is fine, I mean, they're old enough to be really asking for it aren't they? Fuck that's ugly. It's either a really terribly unclear act of reportage or an unbelievably screwed up judgement. And awful that it happened in the first place obviously.
 
 
Ticker
17:08 / 25.06.07
What is an interesting test for me is to take the above rape incident and change the victim's gender. I should add I'm doing this to see if the victim being female/misogyny and heterosexual male right-to-fuck societal privilege becomes more visible.

The manner of dress and age appearance would I think fall out in a NY second if the gender of the victim and so the sexual privilege of the attackers were to be challenged.

I do not believe any 10 year old is in the position of consent, no matter how they are dressed, undressed, sold, or packaged. For me underneath the 'she was asking for it' is a direct connection to perceived hetero male lack of self control (which as we 'Lithers have established is 100% bullshit).
 
 
petunia
18:40 / 25.06.07
Is it just me or does the wording of the article suggest that [...] it would have been acceptable for these two men to have attacked a young female in a park and subjected her to sexual assault(s) if only she was 16 rather than just (allegedly) appearing to be so?

While there is definitely some confusion to be had from the wording of the article, it does mention that Lawyers for the defendants stressed that the sex had been consensual, and was only termed 'rape' because of the framework of law.

So, had the girl been 16, this would not be a case for a rape charge (this reading admittedly taken from the lawyers of two men who had sex with a 10 year old, thus highly open to critisism). The 'rape' charge is there due to the definition in law of sex with a minor as rape, whether or not the minor agreed to it.

Obviously, their claim makes little sense in the eyes of the law. 'Had the girl been 16' = 'Had the girl been legally capable to decide whether or not she wanted to have sex'. If we agree with the legal definition of age of consent, the above statement makes about as much sense as saying an unconscious woman gave consent and was only 'raped' because of the framework of the law.

I can see that they might want to remove some of the stigma from the term 'rape', when the girl agreed to have sex with the men (or so we are told). This might make sense if the girl were 14 or 15, but a ten year old?

The article does make it rather unclear as to the situation. It relies on the reading of 'consensual' sex with a 10-year-old as an attack. It uses terms such as rape and sexual assault, which lead us to the impression of forced sex ('traditional rape', if you'll excuse an ugly term)*.

If the sex was unforced, then the use of these terms would in fact be due to the girl's age. If we magically take these acts out of context and apply them to a situation with a 16-year-old, they would not be considered rape (a 16-year-old's consent counts as such). So strictly speaking, it would have been acceptable for these two men to have attacked a young female in a park and subjected her to sexual assault(s) if only she was 16, because it would not have been an attack, nor would it have been a sexual assualt.

So, basically, these men got off lightly because 'she looked like she was giving consent'. If the judge is going to follow the law, then he should see that this holds as much water as 'the unconscious victim looked like she was giving consent', that is, not a drop.

Of course, this only shows the risk of imposing hypotheticals onto reality. One is given the impression that situation in consideration is actually pretty-much okay because it is similar (only a few years!) to a situation where it would be okay.

Because 'girl at 10' and 'girl at 16' (hell, why not add 'girl at 21' and 'girl at 35'?) only differ in terms of a number, the judge gets to consider the case 'as if it were okay'. He understands that all girls are pretty much the same, that they are only equal to how they look. Who could chastise these men for making such an easy mistake?

As XK points, out, it's unlikely this logic would be used in a parallel situation where the girl was not the toy.

*Does anybody else feel icky about how society only tends to see violent rape as real rape?
 
 
Blake Head
21:42 / 25.06.07
Sorry, my confusion. I could have sworn that this bit:

Lawyers for the defendants stressed that the sex had been consensual, and was only termed 'rape' because of the framework of law.

wasn't there, but it no doubt was. Otherwise it is just too gruesome to think about. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
07:47 / 26.06.07
I don't think it was there. I went through the article trying to work out if it was statutory or not and I couldn't find a reference.
 
 
Supaglue
09:05 / 26.06.07
I partly concur with Trampetunia, although:

So, had the girl been 16, this would not be a case for a rape charge (this reading admittedly taken from the lawyers of two men who had sex with a 10 year old, thus highly open to critisism). The 'rape' charge is there due to the definition in law of sex with a minor as rape, whether or not the minor agreed to it.

Obviously, their claim makes little sense in the eyes of the law. 'Had the girl been 16' = 'Had the girl been legally capable to decide whether or not she wanted to have sex'. If we agree with the legal definition of age of consent, the above statement makes about as much sense as saying an unconscious woman gave consent and was only 'raped' because of the framework of the law.


Why does this claim not make sense in law? If the defence case is that sex was consensual and the defendants assumed the girl to be 16+, there is not the sufficient mens rea for the crime to have taken place if she turns out to have been younger. Obviously, 10 is shockingly young, so there would have to be some pretty strong evidence to succeed. However, this was also in the article:

They [The Defence laywers - My addition] said the judge stated that doctors who examined the girl believed she was in her mid-teens and she was treated by most people as older than her actual age

...might be a reason why this happened.


Therefore, I don't think there's necessarily any reason here to criticise the due process of a trial, what should be being scrutinised is that this was tried in front of a jury and the men were found to be guilty and only given 2 years by a dipshit judge, who in justifying the sentence gave 'dressing provocatively' as some kind of mitigation. That's where the fucking anger should be.
 
 
Supaglue
09:22 / 26.06.07
Oh, and when I say '...might be a reason why this happened' I mean the defence being put.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:33 / 26.06.07
That's where my anger is, I am unhappy about the basis of the decision this Judge has made as stated by him. I find it undermines the legal system.
 
 
Supaglue
10:08 / 26.06.07
Just checking the statutorial element of rape of a child under the age of 13 - Sexual Offences Act 2003, Section 5. May as well get it right, if we're talking about it.

From Blackstones 2007:

The victim must be under the age of 13 years. Consent is not a defence. The age of the victim is such as to preclude mature and informed consent.

...There is considerable overlap between thsi offence and Section 9 [inciting a child into sexual activity]. This is apt to raise considerations concerning the level of sentence where the activity was consensual and the offender was a young person... [The Court]is not obliged to substitute a charge under S13, it can instead ensure that the sentence is not more severe than the facts require.



So it is in effect statutory rape - consent will not play a part, making it immaterial what the men claim. There is still need to determine issues of consent however, for terms of sentence. That explains why the judge gave a lower prison term than normal, based on the evidence heard. What it doesn't get away from is the judge commenting on the way she was dressed.
 
  

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