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SBR: Let's Theorize Consent

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
06:17 / 24.03.08
brb,

Given that you have expressly accused me of sexism, can you point out where I have made a sexist statement?

It is certainly not my intention to be sexist, so if you can point it out, I'll happily rectify it by apologising for it, or explaining what was intended.
 
 
*
14:52 / 24.03.08
Your argument is tantamount to saying that there should not be a law against having sex with women when they don't want to, because after the fact they can just claim that they didn't want to in the first place even though they obviously did. That would lead to massive amounts of false accusations of rape, which would be unfairly prosecuted because everyone is afraid of being labeled sexist, which would economically disempower men since women would be able to get better jobs and more pay by threatening their employers with charges of rape.

Only that hasn't happened. A few people think it has, against all evidence, and they have been living in a misogynist-paranoid fantasy land.

This "withdrawal of consent" thing I find very tenuous, to say the least. To "withdraw consent" means to cease to consent to some future or present activity. So, for instance, I can consent to holding hands in a movie theater with someone for awhile, but cease to consent to that activity when it gets boring or I want to do something else. I can consent to being fucked under the agreement that the fucker will pull out before ejaculation, but then cease to consent when he goes back on that agreement. That's perfectly legitimate. I can consent to having sex with someone where I construe sex to mean oral, and withdraw consent where it becomes clear that the other party means something else. I can consent to having sex with someone under a particular understanding, and if my partner reneges on that agreement (provided it's express, and we've both understood it) then sex we've had was procured under false pretenses. If someone procures my wallet under false pretenses it's stealing; if someone procures sex under false pretenses I don't see why it wouldn't be rape. But what you seem to be saying is that withdrawal of consent refers to a woman having consented to sex and then afterward claiming she hadn't under false pretenses. That's not withdrawing consent. That's women lie, and it's a common, invariably sexist, argument. And it applies equally to existing anti-rape laws as to laws regarding acquiescence while intoxicated. If it were not sexist to the core it would apply equally to every other piece of law against a crime targeting a victim—I could throw myself against a wall a few times and then claim that some other guy beat me up in a dark alley; I could drop my wallet down a sewer grate and claim someone stole it.

Another point I've been meaning to make when I felt able to engage in this thread without behaving badly:

Legislating that consent cannot be said to have been lawfully obtained if at the time of that consent the victim was intoxicated by drugs or alcohol does not mean that people cannot consent while drunk. It means that if you have sex with someone when they have acquiesced while intoxicated, you cannot be sure that reflects true consent. People can get drunk and willingly have sex together. If so, likely they will wake up in the morning and think either "Golly gee, we had great sex, I'm glad we were drunk at that bar together and now we should get married/exchange phone numbers!" or "Golly gee, I had sex with this person but it was actually kind of bad after all; silly me I should make better decisions next time." If the answer while drunk was "Maaaaaybe maybe not. I don't know. If I drink more of this shiny substance, maybe it will make the answer clearer," then the feeling in the morning may be either of the two above, or possibly "I did not want to have sex with this person."

That poses a real danger that persons A having sex with persons B may be acting outside the boundaries of persons B's consent without knowing it. That, I think, is the legitimate fear that you have, underneath all the sexism that informs your argument. However, that legitimate fear (i.e. "I might accidentally rape someone if I don't take the time to make sure she's sober enough to truly consent!"), while a reaction to something legitimately scary, isn't a reaction to the law itself. It's a reaction to the recognition of something that is, in fact, true—you could, I could, anyone could unintentionally rape someone if they have not taken the time to notice whether their victim has consented to sex or not. The proposed legislation would make it clear that when persons B are drunk it is also the responsibility of persons A to ensure that acquiescence is true consent (i.e. it would be the same drunk or sober), just like while it is the responsibility of persons B to say when they do not consent, it is the responsibility of persons A to ask for consent and listen to the response, and not to apply forms of coercion to get persons B to change their mind.

When in doubt, the answer is no. That's not a difficult rule to grasp.
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:18 / 24.03.08
Legislating that consent cannot be said to have been lawfully obtained if at the time of that consent the victim was intoxicated by drugs or alcohol does not mean that people cannot consent while drunk. It means that if you have sex with someone when they have acquiesced while intoxicated, you cannot be sure that reflects true consent. - id

I'm genuinely curious, id, if this means that you think that an ethical actor would not have sex with someone intoxicated unless they obtained prior consent? Presumably it does, which in turn means that you probably think that there is an awful lot of unethical sex happening I suppose, although you are being very careful to state that this sex isn't automatically rape. I confess I'm finding it hard to agree that people who get drunk or high together and then decide to have sex are acting improperly. It might help if you could be more specific about what consent should specifically involve.
 
 
*
20:17 / 24.03.08
No, I don't think they're automatically acting unethically. I think they're taking a risk, and that the risk is mitigated by how well the parties know each other, how carefully they check in while they're drunk/high, and how they act afterward if applicable. I have taken that risk before when I and my then-boyfriend and a young woman both of us were casual friends with were all drunk, and it turned out fine. I was the intiator and also probably the most affected and I was then timid/cautious enough that I think it would have taken an extremely vulnerable person indeed to feel pressured into sex by me. However, if my friend were that vulnerable to pressure and I had acted in the same way, I would have been acting unethically, and I might have indeed pressured her into non-consensual sex—that is to say, raped her. Generally speaking I wouldn't take that risk now, partly because I am now a man, and before I was a woman, and I'm conscious that the power dynamics are a bit different.
 
 
HCE
22:38 / 24.03.08
can you point out where I have made a sexist statement?

Are you serious? How should I point it out, since words seem not to be working? How about interpretive dance, would that work?
 
 
Lurid Archive
01:23 / 25.03.08
No, I don't think they're automatically acting unethically. I think they're taking a risk

So that means you *don't* think it is unethical to have sex with someone when you aren't sure whether or not you have their (true) consent?
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
01:32 / 25.03.08
This whole women lie argument is simplistic and stupid.

That has never been my argument. We all know that people lie and that some people, shock horror, are women.

Which, as I said has never been my argument anyway, only a small part of it, so it's beside the point. The effect of the law is that having sex with an intoxicated woman is illegal. Can't you get your head around that? She might not report it, just as you might not get caught stealing. Doesn't make it legal just because you haven't been caught......
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:55 / 25.03.08
That's a bit of a non-issue, though, isn't it? If two people get drunk and have consensual sex which they both want, neither will report it, so unless they do it in front of a police officer I don't see quite what the problem is with its technical illegality. I know that the police used to break into homes where they thought gay sex was happening, but heterosexuals have generally not had the same problems with consensual sex, and these days I don't believe that even gay men have to worry too much about this (limiting ourselves to the groups of people who can be charged with rape). What sort of situation, exactly, are you worried about? Is it an ideological question - in the same way that, although not generally prosecuted, because not generally reported, oral sex in Massachusetts is technically illegal?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:57 / 25.03.08
However:

Which, as I said has never been my argument anyway, only a small part of it, so it's beside the point.

A small part of your argument is still your argument, though. Others may find some parts of your argument more compelling or important than you think they are. I think that's just a thing. People are sticking on it because it is a sticking point, I think.
 
 
*
04:12 / 25.03.08
Lurid: I think it's more complicated than that. Everyone is of course ethically bound to go as far as possible in determining that the person(s) they are having sex with is consenting entirely freely. I believe a law that states that acquiescence given while intoxicated is not automatically consent under the law has value, for precisely the reasons FoC argues that it is inappropriate—it explicitly obligates both parties to take responsibility for establishing that acquiescence while intoxicated is, in the particular instance in question, the same as consent while sober. It provides for women who were pressured into sex while drunk to state in a court of law that they were pressured into sex while drunk, and makes that equivalent to rape, which it certainly is. It's currently very difficult to prosecute rape cases: Frequently, the fact of a woman's intoxication is treated as de facto consent even when it plainly isn't, which is what this law was almost certainly designed to counter. FoC keeps arguing that it would make it illegal to have sex while intoxicated, but according to the wording he quoted, that's not the effect of the law. The effect of the law is to prevent law enforcement and courts from taking a "yes" while intoxicated as having the legal force of a "yes" while sober. It could still mean yes, but some reasonable care to make sure of that is in order, from the initiating party, and in court if it comes to that. Anything less, and the initiating party is risking causing harm. I'm not ready to say whether taking that risk is always actively unethical, but I know it's not usually going to be ethically neutral, and it's almost never going to be an ethical positive.

Certainly people are sometimes going to gamble that the gorgeous and more than mildly buzzed person in their arms actually means it when they say they want to have sex. I'm not prepared to say that taking that gamble is ethical, but I'm not prepared to call it malicious or even invariably actively unethical. I would call it negligent. I suppose there are situations where someone might believe that they have taken due care but have in fact not done so, and it's those ambiguous circumstances that, without labeling ethical, I hesitate to label unethical as a class.

I think, but I haven't explored fully, that I have a distinction set up between negligent rape and malicious rape. Both will have the same range of effect on the victim and both should be regarded as serious crimes, but in the second rape occurs because the perpetrator actively seeks to do harm, and in the first it occurs because the perpetrator fails to exercise due care. I think malicious rape warrants more serious legal consequences because the motivation is so clearly different, and perpetrators of malicious rape are likely to reoffend and likely to need specific kinds of psychological treatment that would be useless if not counterproductive for people who have committed rape by negligence. I haven't totally explored how this would play out in law. It would be difficult to establish intent to commit rape, and I'm thinking of it as similar to intent to commit murder (as opposed to manslaughter), but without being sure that it's subject to the same kind of proofs. I don't want to go through a bunch of possible scenarios (see: Barbannoy re: stomach-churning distaste). I certainly don't intend to create a class of defense for rapists so much as penalize and get into treatment programs people whom juries would otherwise let off because "he didn't mean to rape her—he was just drunk/overexcited/couldn't understand her mixed signals/thought she'd said yes etc. etc. ad literally nauseum".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
04:45 / 25.03.08
Following up on that, and moving slightly away from New South Wales - there's an interesting section in this article for men on rape and consent issues, which puts questions of consent into other contexts, with some quite interesting consequences:

You're making dinner for someone, your favorite spaghetti sauce, which you’re intensely proud of. But as it turns out, they are allergic to tomatoes. You ask them if they’re sure, and they assure you they are. You suggest maybe it’s different with your sauce somehow. They say, again, that they’re pretty sure they’re still going to be allergic. But you worked al day on the sauce, feel like they at least owe you one spoonful to see how great it is, so you ladle it unto their plate anyway, and in time, your nagging gets to tiresome that they go ahead and take a spoonful, even knowing they’re likely to feel sick very shortly.

• Your friend's Dad is huge with football: he’s the football coach for the high school. He will not leave his son alone about joining the team, and belittles him constantly for not having interest. Your friend not only can't stand sports, but joining the football team would take away from the time he wants to put into the debate team to prepare for a career in law, where his heart is really at, and where his life goals lie. As well, he knows that he's going to have to put up with a lot of abuse from other fellows on the team because his dad is the coach, and because he’s just not very athletic. Your friend's Dad is not leaving him alone about this, to the point that it's clear his love is pretty conditional: if your friend gives up his own dreams and joins the team, his Dad is going to be a lot nicer to him. Too, he's just starting to feel really unloved because he's not doing what his Dad wants him to do. So, he joins the team, but only because he wants to escape his father’s insults and pressure, and it costs him the pursuit of his own goals.

• Your best friend has been enjoying boxing a lot, so much that he's started training to compete in pro fights. Not only are you not excited about boxing, even watching is tough for you because you had a bad experience being beaten up when you were a kid. But he wants you to try it with him – even though you know he’s going to be rough with you and will probably hurt you: he’s a lot bigger than you are, and you don’t know how to box -- saying even when he gets hit, HE likes it, and he's also been saying some pretty crummy stuff to try and get you to do it, calling you a girl (including to other people), saying you’re a pussy, saying you aren’t really his friend if you don’t support him by getting into the ring with him. Wanting him to just stop verbally abusing you and maligning you to other people, you finally step in, only to get your nose broken, which he later will tell you and everyone else was your fault for not blocking your face from his punch.

• You and a friend are in an airplane, considering skydiving. You only have some of the equipment you need, and might know some of how to do it, but you really aren't prepared or in a position to be safe, and just haven't made up your mind yet, and are only on the plane so you can get a better sense of what you want. But he really wants you to do it, too, to give him the courage to do it. You’re explaining you’re not sure at the same time he’s just grabbing you with him as he jumps, pushing you out of the plane.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
05:17 / 25.03.08
Haus,

They're all excellent cases of harassment. Which are enforceable within they're own law.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
05:36 / 25.03.08
Id,

What part of "explicitly given consent" is acquiescence? If you go back through my posts you'll see that the term "explicitly given" is there in every one. We're not arguing acquiescence.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
05:41 / 25.03.08
id,

consent cannot be said to have been lawfully obtained if at the time of that consent the victim was intoxicated by drugs or alcohol

This makes no exception. Where can it be said that there is anywhere in this statement that there is room for interpretation if it makes it quite clear that there is no lawful consent under these conditions?
 
 
*
14:33 / 25.03.08
Consent cannot be said to have been lawfully obtained. That doesn't necessarily mean that there wasn't consent, just that it was not obtained by the initiating party in accordance with the legal definition of obtaining consent. Admittedly, I'm no legal expert, and that's just a layperson's read. But I fail to see how you're having such a hard time grasping it. If they had wanted to say a person who is drunk cannot legally consent to sex, they would have used language similar to language used for minors—i.e. persons under X years of age cannot lawfully consent to sex, persons over X limit of intoxication cannot lawfully consent to sex.
 
 
*
14:40 / 25.03.08
As far as explicitly given consent vs. acquiescence is concerned, I'm not precisely sure what you're pointing to, FoC. I think there's a lot of interpretation possible as to where the bounds of acquiescence and explicit consent are, which is precisely what this whole issue is about. I use the word acquiescence in my posts above where there could be some interpretation either way, particularly where I believe that an explicit "yes" while drunk could turn out to be acquiescence rather than consent. I'm aware that you and I differ on this point, but the fact that you are using different words than I am is due to the disagreement, not a cause of it.

I hope this addresses your point.

What do you consider to constitute explicit consent while intoxicated, at minimum?
 
 
Leigh Monster loses its cool
01:13 / 26.03.08
They're all excellent cases of harassment. Which are enforceable within they're own law.

This quite disturbs me. While I would doubt my ability to prosecute in the first two examples, I would still feel as though I had been raped--coerced into sex against my will, even though not by physical force. The last case seems like a fairly clear-cut case of rape to me. I'm curious, what are the possible consequences for harassment as opposed to rape, where you live?
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
05:03 / 26.03.08
id and Leigh,

You both make really good points there. Thank you both for them. I think we are getting closer to an understanding of each other here.

Leigh,

I stand corrected. The last example that Haus gives is clearly an example of rape. I didn't read it as well as I could/should have, please excuse me on this one! The only thing I'd disagree with you is that by pushing (or pulling) someone out of the plane you have clearly used physical force, so this is a fairly clear cut analogy of rape. Point taken and well made. With begrudging acknowledgement to Haus as well. But don't tell him I said that....

Firstly lets separate harassment from coercion.

Coercion (1) - The act of compelling by force of authority. (2) - Using force to cause something to occur.

Harassment (1) - To irritate or torment persistently. (2) To wear out; exhaust. (3) To impede and exhaust (an enemy) by repeated attacks or raids.

So we can see that coercion indicates the threat of force.

Harassment is a separate issue to rape and pursuable in it's own right. Sexual harassment is basically any harassment with the objective of obtaining sex that is otherwise unwanted. You could basically consider rape to be where physical force, or the threat of physical force, is used to obtain sex, and harassment where other types of non-physical threat are used - losing your job, taking the kids away, telling people secrets etc, etc. The difference is that if someone acquiesces to harassment, "OK, I'll have sex with you, don't sack me" then they're considered to have consented. If they DON'T acquiesce and the person has sex with them anyway, that's rape. Now, it could be argued that an employer is engaging in the "The act of compelling by force of authority" and is thereby engaging in coercion, but legally the distinction lies in physical force, threatened or actual.

Sexual harassment laws are basically to give someone some protection from harassment becoming rape. Typically, just the report of sexual harassment is enough to obtain an Apprehended Violence Order (AVO) against someone. That is, there doesn't need to be an apprehended case of violence, there only needs to be an apprehension of violence to obtain an order. The beauty of this system is that it is an intervention that doesn't affect one's criminal record and acts in a manner similar to a "restraining order". Should the conditions of the order be broken then a crime is considered to have been committed and there are a range of punitive actions available, right up to custodial sentences. Suffice to say, you'd be a very silly person to then go and have sex with someone during the period that an AVO is in effect (generally they're issued for a set period and can be extended by application), because all they would have to do is report it and you would be in breach of your AVO. You would also have a very hard time arguing in a court of law that you didn't rape someone that had an active AVO out on you if that was their testimony. The courts love "Rape under AVO" cases, as do prosecutors, because they're considered to be pretty much open and shut cases that bypass much of the heartache intrinsic to a rape trial.

I hope this makes both makes sense and answers your questions.

id,
The law makes no distinction between or allowance for the initiating party. So by not allowing lawful consent to be gained from someone who is intoxicated, you effectively outlaw consent while intoxicated. This is important because the rationale for writing it this way was to put the onus onto the second party to ensure that the first party isn't so pissed up that they can't actually give consent. Fair enough. Secondly, it then put the onus on the first party to decide whether they gave lawful consent, and if not, whether a crime was committed against them. Again, fair enough.

Which brings us to acquiescence vs consent.

Personally I would consider "explicit consent" to consist of a "Yes" or "do it" or "OK" or some other positive reply in response to a specific question about a specific action. This consent cannot be assumed to be carried over to other actions. Furthermore, that consent, once given should carry for the duration of the encounter unless that consent is explicitly withdrawn. This also removes the potential for a kind of "sexual force majeure" as a mode of defence.

I would therefore consider acquiescence to be consent gained in the face of pressure, whether that pressure is harassment or coercion (and thereby, force). This is really important! Because acquiescence in the face of coercion is rape. Acquiescence in the face of harassment is consent. Bare in mind that acquiescence in the face of harassment must include a positive statement such as "OK" or "yes" or "alright" or similar, otherwise it is rape because there is no explicit consent. I know this might be unpopular, but what it does is very clearly define the conditions that go together to indicate consent versus acquiescence - and therefore rape versus consent.

Which brings us to the extreme trickiness of adding alcohol and/or drugs into the situation.

The full law stated that:

consent cannot be said to have been lawfully obtained if at the time of that consent the victim was intoxicated by drugs or alcohol, regardless of whether they have been persuaded to provide consent

So we have three points of contention - consent, intoxication and persuasion - rather than the current, single point of contention - consent. So, in actual fact, in the case of intoxication, the case is no longer whether the second party raped the first party, but whether the first party was intoxicated in the first place. So, by seeking to make rape cases less traumatic for the victim, we actually make it more traumatic. And this is before we get to defining intoxication and how you measure it. As it currently stands there isn't any consideration of intoxication, only of coercion. The problem with that is that currently the law allows for the "I was pissed and I thought she gave consent" defence. The problem with introducing such a law so written is that you remove this defence only to introduce the "She wasn't pissed, your honour!" defence. This also has the effect of removing the burden of proof from the defendant (to prove they were intoxicated) to the plaintiff (to prove they weren't intoxicated). So if we're designing the law to ease the pain on the defendant, clearly this doesn't work!

Haus,

I don't know whether your question "What sort of situation, exactly, are you worried about? was directed at me, but I'll answer it anyway!

What I'm worried about is:

1) Making rape harder to prove by moving the burden of proof from the defendant to the plaintiff.
2) The potential for vexatious claim (however unlikely).
3) "Technically" criminalising many, if not most, sexually active men (and many females).
4) The introduction of more than one loophole in the law in attempting the closure of one loophole in the law.

So going back to my original post about being drunk and the provision of consent. Allow me to illustrate it another way. If I get really drunk and walk out on the road without looking, is it the fault of the driver that hits me (provided there are no other extenuating circumstances)?

Similarly, if I'm drunk and say "Yes" to sex, in the absence of coercion, isn't that consent my responsibility? If I get so drunk that I say yes, without the influence of coercion, to otherwise unwanted sexual advances, isn't it my responsibility to ensure I don't get so drunk?

So, my argument in my original post was poorly written in that, by personalising it, I could only give one perspective on the law. I admit this was an error. Surely the exploration and discussion of ideas to make ones perspective both clearer and more succinct is part of the aim of Barb? I certainly don't think that it deserves some of the more lurid accusations flying around in Barbannoy. But I should probably expect no less from Barbannoy.

How about I propose a solution? The simple answer (in my mind) would be to outlaw a defendant's defence that argues that, due to their inebriation, "They were to drunk to be sure" or "I thought they had" provided consent. By doing this we put the onus on the defendant to establish grounds for a reasonable argument that consent had, in fact, been provided.

This seems a hell of a lot more sensible to me!

I'm sorry about the length of this post, but I am answering to three different posters....
 
 
rakehell
11:46 / 26.03.08
isn't it my responsibility to ensure I don't get so drunk?

Absolutely. It's also your responsiblity to not walk alone, at night, wearing "inappropriate" clothing.

Also, having orifices. Now you're just asking for it.
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:17 / 26.03.08
I bet they didn't have this kind of problem when they outlawed drink driving.

Similarly, if I'm drunk and say "Yes" to sex, in the absence of coercion, isn't that consent my responsibility? If I get so drunk that I say yes, without the influence of coercion, to otherwise unwanted sexual advances, isn't it my responsibility to ensure I don't get so drunk?

Well, actually, isn't the point of this law change to protect "you" when you are in a state where you cannot be said to be responsible for yourself. By making it easier for rape cases to be brought against men who apparently lack the self-control not to screw an intoxicated person.

Put it another way, if I ask a very drunk person to look at their wallet and then sprint off down the street with it then I am still guilty of theft. Even if I've had a couple of ales. Sure the victim could be considered to have been foolish (if they were sober) but a crime has still been committed. Even if the person I stole the wallet from was my best mate or sexual partner, I've just stolen from them.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
13:07 / 26.03.08
Rakehell,

I'm sorry Rakehell, but if drinking makes you (or anyone else) consent to sex in the absence of coercion or violence, then that's your own stupid fault. It's your own bad decision. It isn't rape. Frankly, this subject deserves more respect than you just gave it.

Evil,

With respect, I don't get your point. I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just not sure what you're getting at.

If you've raped someone, you've raped someone. It doesn't matter if they were drunk at the time. It's still rape. It doesn't matter if you (not meaning you personally ES, but a general you) are drunk at the time you raped someone, it's still rape.

The simple answer (in my mind) would be to outlaw a defendant's defence that argues that, due to their inebriation, "They were to drunk to be sure" or "I thought they had" provided consent. By doing this we put the onus on the defendant to establish grounds for a reasonable argument that consent had, in fact, been provided.

So that would be fairly clear that being drunk is no defence of rape, no? I mean, if we can't use intoxication as a means of defence against murder, or assault, or bad driving, why should it be available as a defence in a rape case? Furthermore, why should the intoxication of a plaintiff even be raised, let alone given legal credence through legislation? Why are rape and intoxication linked in court consideration? They shouldn't be. So as soon as we remove this silly idea that because you were intoxicated you were/weren't raped or you were more/less raped or more/less deserving of it the better for all involved, particularly victims.

One thing that hasn't been done is to define rape.

Rape:
–noun
1) the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2) any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
-verb
3) to force to have sexual intercourse.

What do we notice is common in all of these?

Force. Actual or threatened.

Personally I would expand the above definitions so that activities of a sexual nature outside of intercourse would be included. In any case, the law (in NSW at least) recognises that intercourse is only one of many different types of sexual assault. This is just a sample off an online dictionary, but I'm sure if you look up any dictionary, the common theme would be force...

Therefore, as I've outlined, acquiescence in the face of violence, threatened or real is not consent. It's rape. It has nothing at all to do with intoxication. Nor should it. As far as I'm concerned, by introducing considerations of the intoxication of either party only serves to muddy the waters about what rape really is. And therefore makes convictions less likely.
 
 
Evil Scientist
14:41 / 26.03.08
If you've raped someone, you've raped someone. It doesn't matter if they were drunk at the time.

Yes, exactly. However, at the moment, it seems as though people who were assaulted when they were drunk get judged to have been "asking for it" in some way because they apparently gave up responsibility for their personal safety. This law would make it easier for people in that situation to actually bring their attacker to justice.

The victim needs the defence, not the attacker. If the accused is innocent then surely the best way to prove that would be for the case to be dealt with in a court of law, especially if the upside is that many more sexual predators are brought to justice.

Do you have any evidence that this law would cause a significant rise in the number of false accusations?

At the end of the day. If the most ridiculous extreme was true and people were being arrested for having sex whilst drunk (which does not actually appear to be the case with this law anyway), there's a pretty simple way to avoid that. Have some lemonade instead.
 
 
Leigh Monster loses its cool
14:48 / 26.03.08
The second definition, "any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person," says nothing about the force being physical. It's certainly possible to force someone to do something without using physical violence. You don't seem to see the distinction between coerced "consent" and actual willing consent. If A has threatened to fire B and prevent her ever working again unless B sleeps with A, and B, who has a family to support, "consents," then by your definition A cannot be prosecuted for rape because he never threatened B with violence, and therefore B's consent must have been heartfelt. However, I would say, and I'm sure B would feel, that she was raped.

Maybe you feel that the difference in this scenario, and in Haus' first two scenarios, is that the victim appears to have had a choice in the matter and so must take responsibility for the action. The thing is, where do you draw the line at a reasonable choice? If someone threatens me with violence, I can choose to put myself at risk of injury or death rather than acquiesce--but should the law expect me to do that in order to consider my claim of rape legitimate? Similarly, it seems, the law that you detail will not consider B to have been raped because she failed to sacrifice her public life and put her family at risk in order to avoid unwanted sex.

You say that "Sexual harassment laws are basically to give someone some protection from harassment becoming rape." In this scenario, the law has failed to do that, yet A still cannot be prosecuted for rape. Say this was the first time A propositioned B, and B didn't have time to go out and get an AVO before having to acquiesce. A cannot and will not be prosecuted for rape, because he didn't use physical force. Moreover--and you claim that this is the "beauty" of the system--it cannot affect his criminal record! If B leaves (assuming she feels able to do so, which she may not, since A has threatened her employment prospects) and C comes to work for A, he can repeat the whole process. The best that C and D and E and F can do is get a restraining order, which clearly comes too late. They can do nothing to prevent A's similar behavior with whoever comes next. A is therefore a rapist at large. In this case, failing to recognize force beyond physical force has rendered the law completely impotent.
 
 
Leigh Monster loses its cool
15:14 / 26.03.08
Pardon me for this, above: "You don't seem to see the distinction between coerced "consent" and actual willing consent." I had missed your definition: acquiescence in the face of coercion is rape. Acquiescence in the face of harassment is consent.

While I wouldn't exactly call acquiescence in the face of harassment consent, I agree that it would make little sense for me to prosecute someone for rape because he nagged me annoyingly for half an hour and then I gave in to shut him up. It might be more to the point to focus on definitions of harassment, which I feel you define to widely, and coercion, which I feel you define far, far to narrowly.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:42 / 27.03.08
Yes - "force" need not be physical - although one would hope that the New South Wales legislature would have a definition more precise than dictionary.com.

(Edit - apparently it does; consent is not obtained - "if the person has sexual intercourse because of intimidatory or coercive conduct, or other threat, that does not involve a threat of force" - Crimes Amendment (Consent—Sexual Assault Offences) Bill 2007 - in the event of a non-violent threat leading to sex, that would be sexual assault.)

Let's look at how this actually works in law, and go from there.

This from the notes on the 2003 Sexual Offences act, in UK law:

Section 74 defines consent as "if he agrees by choice, and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice". Two fundamental questions need to be answered.

First, whether a complainant had the capacity (i.e. the age and understanding) to make a choice about whether or not to take part in the sexual activity at the time in question.

There is no definition of capacity in the 2003 Act.

The question of capacity to consent can be an important issue when a complainant is voluntarily intoxicated to the point of stupefaction at the time of the incident. In R v Bree [2007] EWCA 256, the complainant alleged that she had been raped after an evening of heavy drinking. Her memory was very hazy and she appeared to suffer gaps in her recollection. The defendant's case was that the hazy recollection was either due to the effects of alcohol which made her forget, or the complainant was lying. In his directions to the jury, the trial judge merely reiterated the statutory definition of consent and stated that the complainant's intoxication may have an impact on her credibility. The defendant appealed his conviction on the basis, inter alia, that the trial judge should have provided greater assistance on 'capacity' and 'consent' to the jury.

In quashing the conviction, the Court of Appeal made the following comments:

The 2003 Act provides a clear definition of 'consent' for the purposes of the law of rape, and by defining it with reference to "capacity to make that choice", it sufficiently addresses the issue of consent in the context of voluntary consumption of alcohol by the complainant;

If, through drink (or for any other reason) the complainant has temporarily lost her capacity to choose whether to have intercourse on the relevant occasion, she is not consenting, and subject to questions about the defendant's state of mind, if intercourse takes place, this would be rape;
Where the complainant has voluntarily consumed even substantial quantities of alcohol, but nevertheless remains capable of choosing whether or not to have intercourse, and in drink agrees to do so, this would not be rape;
Capacity to consent may evaporate well before a complainant becomes unconscious. Whether this is so or not, however, is fact specific;
As regards the summing up, the jury should have been given assistance with the meaning of 'capacity' in circumstances when the complainant is affected by voluntarily induced intoxication, and also whether, and to what extent they could take that into account in deciding whether she had consented.
In summary, R v Bree emphasises the importance of 'capacity to consent' in cases when it appears that a complainant has been extremely affected by the voluntary consumption of drink and/or drugs.

In cases similar to Bree, prosecutors should carefully consider whether the complainant has the capacity to consent, and where independent counsel will present the case, ensure that he/she is instructed to put the Crown's case on this basis.

As well, counsel should be specifically informed of this judgement and its implications for the case in hand.

Prosecutors should consider with investigators whether further, supporting evidence could be obtained to demonstrate that the complainant was so intoxicated that he/she had lost their capacity to consent. For example, evidence from witnesses who can attest to the extreme intoxicated state of the complainant. If the complainant reported the alleged rape soon after it occurred, then the doctor should include in their statement any information as to the complainant's state. In addition, it may be possible to obtain expert evidence in respect of the effects of alcohol/drugs and if relevant, the effects if drink and drugs are taken together As well, consideration should be given as regards experts providing back calculations as regards the level of alcohol in the blood at the time of the incident.

HCAs and counsel should be prepared to remind the trial judge of the need to assist the jury with the meaning of capacity. Although the judgement provides no definition of 'capacity', assistance can be gained from the common law which is summarised in Rook and Ward on Sexual Offences Law and Practice (3rd edition) at paragraph 1.94 as "a complainant will not have had the capacity to agree by choice where their understanding and knowledge were so limited that they were not in a position to decide whether or not to agree". It is also worthwhile to bear in mind R v Lang (1975) 62 Cr.App.R. 50 in which the Court of Appeal considered the question of whether an intoxicated complainant understood her situation and was capable of consenting under the 1956 Act. The Court found that the prosecution had to prove that the complainant's:

"..understanding and knowledge were such that she was not in a position to decide whether to consent or resist."

Second, whether he or she was in a position to make that choice freely, which is not constrained in any way. Assuming that the complainant had both the freedom and capacity to consent, the crucial question is whether the complainant agrees to the activity by choice.


Italics mine, to address Peter's worry number 3, above.

The "Bree" referred to is the case of Benjamin Bree, who was released five months into a five-year sentence for rape, on the grounds that the jury was not given sufficient guidance on the issue of capacity. Sir Igor Judge said in the ruling on that appeal that neither was committing a crime by drinking to excess:

"Both were free, if they wished, to have intercourse with each other," he said.

The issue was whether the complainant had drunk enough either to make the apparent provision of consent impossible (that is, drunk to unconsciousness) or that she had not given consent. Bree claimed that he had a reasonable belief that she had. This is unique to rape as an offence - that whether the defendant sincerely believed that he was not committing a crime has force in law - this is also one reason why comparisons to being hit by cars are not very useful, especially when we are talking about the forcible sexual assault of another human being. Back to the CPS on the 2003 Sexual Offences Act.

In the offences of rape, assault by penetration, sexual assault and causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent, a person (A) is guilty of an offence if (s)he:

Acts intentionally;
(B) does not consent to the act; and
(A) does not reasonably believe that B consents.
Deciding whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents (subsection (2) of sections 1-4). It is likely that this will include a defendant's attributes, such as disability or extreme youth, but not if (s)he has any particular fetishes.

This is a major change in the law and the Act abolishes the Morgan defence of a genuine though unreasonably mistaken belief as to the consent of the complainant. It means that the defendant (A) has the responsibility to ensure that (B) consents to the sexual activity at the time in question. It will be important for the police to ask the offender in interview what steps (s)he took to satisfy him or herself that the complainant consented in order to show his or her state of mind at the time.

The test of reasonable belief is a subjective test with an objective element. The best way of dealing with this issue is to ask two questions.

Did the defendant believe the complainant consented? This relates to his or her personal capacity to evaluate consent (the subjective element of the test).
If so, did the defendant reasonably believe it? It will be for the jury to decide if his or her belief was reasonable (the objective element).


Now, what the Bree appeal did do was to address an omission in the 2003 Sexual Offences Act, where voluntary self-intoxication, as opposed to having been drugged, was not identified as a specific cause of reduced capacity to consent. David Blunkett explained this by saying, in much the same wise as Peter:

I have rejected the suggestion that someone who is inebriated could claim they were unable to give consent - as opposed to someone who is unconscious for whatever reason, including because of alcohol - on the ground that we do not want mischievous accusations.


It was to address this that Sir Igor said:

Capacity to consent may evaporate well before a complainant becomes unconscious

When capacity to consent evaporates and whether a reasonable belief in consent could be sustained are both questions which have to be decided by a jury on the available evidence.

A quick pause, to remember that juries and judges are often not great on rape.

An ICM poll for Amnesty International in 2005 found that more than a quarter of respondents thought a woman was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was wearing sexy or revealing clothing.

Some 30% said that a woman was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was drunk, and 37% held the same view if the woman had failed to clearly say "no" to the man.
(Radnofsky, 2007 - the same report finds that a promiscuous woman is in the eyes of 8% of respondents entirely responsible for being raped - pretty depressing stuff. Report here.)

This clarification came not just out of the declaration of mistrial on the Bree case, but from concerns about prior cases, most notably that at Ruari Dougal, where Justice Roderick Evans directed a jury to acquit on the grounds that the complainant, under cross-examination, admitted to being unable to remember having given consent (or having not given it). Interview with the victim here. Depending on how you look at it, this was either a common-sense victory over precisely the sort of regret-rape accusation Peter is worried about, or a double-team by two men that prevented a case from going before a jury, the traditional method by which innocence or guilt is established in UK law.

So, that's roughly where things stand at the moment - a consultation in 2007 concluded that Sir Igor's interpretation of the 2003 Sexual Offences Act provided a clear guideline on capacity, and by extension that David Blunkett douched out in 2002 (opinion model's own). And, to go back to our starting point, it suggests that in a sensible legal framework the answer to Peter's question:

Should some responsibility not lie with the victim to ensure they don't get so drunk that they accept otherwise unwanted advances?

Is "about as much as they should be held responsible for foolishly hanging around with people who turn out to be rapists".

(Oh, P.S., for anyone who is still reading - there is a degree of doubt as to whether the proposed bill Peter mentions actually said what he believed it to have said, or indeed whether it was in fact defeated - see here and below, where we will hopefully sort that out.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:16 / 27.03.08
PPS - Morgan, above, refers to a 1976 case in which the jury was advised that a sincere belief that consent was given should result in acquittal, even if the belief was not a reasonable one.
 
 
Leigh Monster loses its cool
01:43 / 27.03.08
An ICM poll for Amnesty International in 2005 found that more than a quarter of respondents thought a woman was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was wearing sexy or revealing clothing.

Some 30% said that a woman was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was drunk, and 37% held the same view if the woman had failed to clearly say "no" to the man.
That's possibly the most depressing statistic I've ever read.

I wonder how a jury would respond to a defendant who based his "reasonable belief" of the other party's consent on his level of intoxication? Is there any case where someone has made that defense--that s/he was too drunk to understand that the victim was unwilling?
 
 
Leigh Monster loses its cool
01:45 / 27.03.08
Oh. I seem to've missed your last post entirely. Sorry!

And, that's...really scary.
 
  

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