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SBR: Let's Theorize Consent

 
  

Page: (1)23

 
 
alas
15:48 / 25.05.07
In working with my students on understanding and exploring sexual assault and consent policies, I found an interesting and recent article on the lack of scholarship about precisely what "consent" is:

"‘Spontaneous’ Sexual Consent: An Analysis of Sexual Consent Literature" by
Beres, Melanie A (of the International Institute for Qualitative Methodology). Feminism & Psychology, Volume 17, issue 1 (February 2007), p. 93-108.

I have access to it, but you probably don't, unless you're afiliated with a university.

So here's the abstact:
Sexual consent is an understudied and undertheorized concept despite its importance to feminist researchers and activists interested in sexual violence. Literature on consent, although sparse, has been produced from a variety of disciplines, including law, psychology, and sociology. This article is a critical review of current literature and current understandings of sexual consent. Different conceptualizations of consent are analysed including implicit and explicit definitions from legal theorists and sexual violence and consent researchers. Alternatives, including communicative sexuality, are discussed and feminist understandings of the social context of consent and the social forces that produce understandings of consent are examined. Directions for future research are suggested.

And here's a nice long quote from the beginning of the piece:

On a warm sunny day in a mountain resort town in the Canadian Rockies, I am sitting on a grassy slope interviewing a young transient worker about his experiences with casual sex, including how he and his partners communicated their willingness (and consent) to engage in sex. He sums up by saying, ‘it’s obvious, but it’s really hard to know’ when someone is willing to have sex with me. This man’s comment highlights the complex and often confusing quality of consent. On the one hand consent is a concept that is taken for granted. Many scholars use it without defining it explicitly, or questioning its use, assuming a shared understanding of the concept (see Hurd, 1996; Jones, 2002–03; Ostler, 2003; Walker, 1997). Additionally, sexual consent plays a pivotal role in discussions and debates about sexual violence because the absence of sexual consent is most often the defining characteristic of sexual violence (sex without consent). The purpose of this work on sexual violence and sexual consent is to prevent continued acts of violence; however, despite decades of feminist research, activism and legal reform, incidents of sexual violence have not declined (Carmody, 2005; Schulhofer, 1998).

While consent is critical to the understanding of sexual violence, it remains a nebulous concept. We are not privy to the details of the sexual experiences of others, and therefore we cannot learn how to communicate sexually based on others’ experiences, and talking about sex with a prospective partner is often considered taboo. This was reflected in lack of literature on sexual consent. I recently conducted a series of literature searches using psychology, sociology, and women’s studies academic databases. Searching for the term ‘sexual consent’ yielded between 30 and 42 results, while searching for ‘rape’ yielded between 2705 and 8145 results, and ‘sexual assault’ yielded between 1016 and 2006 results. The paucity of articles on sexual consent reflects the lack of scholarly attention to this critical concept. Even within the literature on sexual consent there is no consensus on what it is, how it should be defined or how it is communicated.

My introduction into discussions about the meaning of sexual consent came while I was coordinating a sexual assault education program in the mid-1990s. At that time I defined consent using the ‘I know it when I see it’ definition. While finding it difficult to articulate a comprehensive definition of consent, I was confident that given a description of a sexual event I would be able to distinguish a consensual from a non-consensual experience. Since I ended my position as coordinator of the sexual assault education program, I questioned my understanding of sexual consent and started examining a variety of scholarly writing on the topic. I have since abandoned my previous confidence in my own understanding of consent and I am left with more questions than answers. What is sexual consent, and how is it defined? How are these definitions used to enhance (or cloud) understandings of sexual violence?
...
I argue that current understandings of consent are underdeveloped and rely largely on assumed and implied definitions. There is a lack of empirical work on the communication of willingness and ‘consent’ to sexual relations. This empirical work is vital to increase our understandings of sexual consent and sexual violence.


There's quite a bit of interesting stuff going on in that article, and if anyone wants it, I can probably work out some way of emailing it to you. It references the Antioch College Sexual Offense Prevention Policy, which was controversial when it was first introduced, but which has become a model for many progressive colleges and universities. Beres states that

Antioch College has adopted a sexual consent policy similar to the model that Pineau (1989) suggested. The consent policy requires members of the campus community to verbally ask permission for each type of sexual activity, and also requires a positive verbal response in order for consent to be given (Antioch College, 2006). This policy is viewed as inconsistent with the progression of sexual activity according to students in Humphreys and Herold’s (2003) study. Most students said that they would not endorse a similar policy on their campus because it was unrealistic and hard to implement and enforce. Giving or asking verbally for consent was viewed as incompatible with the way it’s believed that sex takes place because it is seen as lacking romance and spontaneity(Humphreys and Herold, 2003). In addition, Schulhofer (1998) suggested that the social change required to implement this type of communicative sexuality would take too long, and leave women at risk throughout the process of change.

It may be possible that a communicative model of sexuality does not call for a complete metamorphosis of sexual behaviour as perceived by Humphreys and Herold’s (2003) respondents. Pineau (1996) made it clear that a verbal negotiation is not required, only that there are cues that communicate consent. These cues and behaviours may be embedded in the ways in which people already engage in sexual behaviour. Pineau gave an example:

If you undo one of my buttons, and I help with the rest, you may presume that I am happy to get undressed. If you undo my button, and I try to do it back up again or clutch at the gap created, then you should presume the opposite. (p. 97)

Pineau (1996) referred to the switch to a communicative model of sexuality as a paradigm shift. She assumed that this shift requires not only a radical shift in the way we think about consent, but also a shift in the way that we engage in sex. I am not convinced that a move towards communicative sexuality requires such a large shift. In order to determine consent, attention is often placed on whether or not, or to what degree, a woman resisted, or demonstrated her lack of consent. A shift to communicative sexuality changes the questions – it does not require that a woman prove she did not consent, but instead asks what happened to show and demonstrate consent. This opens spaces to interrogate the ways that women and men are already communicating a willingness to participate in sexual relations. Rather than assuming that this communication does not already take place (so we must legislate it), we can start by assuming that there is some communication there and begin interrogating it.


When I introduced the Antioch/communicative model to my students at a college with a much more standard policy of harassment/assault, I was prepared for resistance, so I began by explaining that it had been mocked and derided in this press, and why I still think it's important to take it seriously, even if they didn't find it workable. Then we had a discussion about the way sex appears in movie--underwear often sort of effortlessly disappearing and everything in soft focus and an expectation that it's sexier to have a kind of "silent understanding"--"ze looked into my eyes and I just knew...." So my often pretty conervative students were actually largely favorable to the basic idea of encouraging explicit consent, and working to make that more standard at our university.

One thing that I found most difficult to parse about the Antioch model, and I'd like to talk to some Antiochians about it, is this passage:

All parties must have unimpaired judgement (examples that may cause impairment include but are not limited to alcohol, drugs, mental health conditions, physical health conditions).

I think I get what it's saying--that mental and physical health conditions might impair one's judgment in some but not all circumstances so sexual activity cannot take place in those circumstances--but does it also inevitably suggest that anyone with a mental or physical health condition may never fully consent to sex? How do you read it?

Finally, further on discussions of campus consent policies, this feminist blogger (US) is concerned about the "flattening" effect of her university's consent policy, which seems to put rape and sexual assault at the same level as, to her, much less threatening activities, and still to reinforce gender norms. Here's the nub of her argument:

This post is part of my rethinking feminism series, because it highlights to me the ways in which institutions adopted what seemed to be "feminist friendly" policies, but only to serve their self-interest and not to actually prevent rape or sexual assault. My college has instituted an incredibly protectionist policy, that most conservatives would lambaste as the legacy of the P.C. era, but I believe there is something far more nefarious afoot. While the subtext of this college policy does suggest a 2nd wave view of woman's sexuality as passive and helpless to men's predatory sexual behavior, that is not the real problem with the code (although I do find it insulting). The real problem is that the college adopted this "feminist friendly" code, ultimately, to keep its rape statistics low and to protect itself from liability--either angry parents or the federal government. This policy does nothing to create a campus that is more respectful of women, nor does it promote healthy self-image or sexual behavior.

What do you think?
 
 
Ticker
16:45 / 25.05.07
I think...
I love you even more for starting this thread, alas.


Consent is an incredibly complex thing with wide variation in signals sent and received. The iconic 'no means no' versus 'sometimes no means yes' is a good example of the confusion.

Even though social rituals of sober light of day sexual interaction negotiations are not popular in the mainstream, they're pretty standard in the BDSM community. I've participated in and witnessed many lengthy (hours/days) and fast (2-5 min) negotiations. The idea that taking a few moments to be clear about what is mutually acceptable is somehow a killjoy cold shower seems to me to be the opinion of people who don't know how to have these exchanges in a sexy way. It can be a very successful form of foreplay.

It's been popularized enough within the BDSM community that some of the most sought after classes and presentations are about effective hot negotiation. I might be a bit over optimistic but I believe it could be popularized in the mainstream. Plenty of futuristic science fiction work (like Heinlein's) includes a widely adopted sexual contract negotiation etiquette.

Isn't it time to make the romantic/sexual courtship process function as more than just a confused thing people do?
 
 
alas
18:10 / 25.05.07
Eek! Loved by the Bold One! How happy! I just realized I should have provided the link to the Beres piece, just in case some of you can get it.

I agree with you, and the writer of the article also, essentially, agrees, I believe. Here's what she says about BDSM, in the context of "the nature of consent":

Archard (1998) suggested that ‘consent is an act rather than a state of mind’ (p. 4), and Wertheimer (1996) saw consent as ‘performative rather than attitudinal’ (p. 94). If we accept a behavioural version of sexual consent, we require information or standards about which behaviours indicate consent. Sherwin (1996) argued for an ‘objective’ definition of consent that ‘is a legal standard establishing a conventional means for refusing sex’ (pp. 230–1). Thus, we would require a list of behaviours that indicate consent, or, as Sherwin suggested, a list of behaviours that demonstrate non-consent. While I can see the attraction to the creation of such a definition from a legal position – a list of definitive consent behaviours (or non-consent behaviours) would make the decisions of judges and juries simpler – this type of list over-simplifies sexual relations.

Communicating ‘consent’ is likely more complex and nuanced than can be adequately captured by a standardized list of behaviours and risks labelling harmful and violent experiences as consensual. For example, in Texas a number of years ago, a woman was attacked in her home by a knife-wielding intruder. She begged her attacker to use a condom to protect herself against HIV. However, because she asked him to use a condom, the jury believed that she consented, and her attacker was acquitted (McGregor, 1996). While asking for a condom may be indicative of consent in certain contexts, it cannot be taken as a universal declaration of consent.

Additionally, this type of list can inhibit the freedom for people to express consent in non-conventional ways. For example, during sadism and masochism (S&M), many activities might take place that appear to be against someone’s will. One partner might scream ‘no’, or even fight back. However, ‘consent’ to S&M is often quite explicit with the use of a ‘safe word’ in the event that the activity has gone past one person’s comfort level. In this context, screaming ‘no’ might not be unusual, and might not be an indication that the activity in unwanted. This form of ‘consensual’ activity may be improperly labelled as rape, with the use of a standardized definition of consent (or non-consent).


My sense is that she's willing to explore the possibility that many or most sexual encounters, even without ritualized or formal negotiations, have some level of negotiation happening that is mutually acceptable--that it's not all 'bad faith' for people doing that. I'm still mulling this over.
 
 
grant
18:14 / 25.05.07
does it also inevitably suggest that anyone with a mental or physical health condition may never fully consent to sex? How do you read it?

I'm trying really hard to think of a physical health condition that could interfere with consent, and the only ones that I can think of are problems with communication.

I was actually thinking about consent yesterday while reading this unusual story, which may or may not be a useful example for class discussions. It's about a female airman first class who was involved in a threesome with a male airman and a female staff sergeant. Both she and the male airman faced charges of rape & sodomy. All three participants were drunk, and the (should I say "victim"?) complainant outranks the other two participants (should I say "assailants"?) by one or two pay grades.

One question that came to mind reading that was: would it be possible for a sober person to consent to a drunk person?

Another question: can a soldier truly consent to a superior officer? An inferior officer? That's the social situation where unequal power relationships are the most obvious.
 
 
*
18:35 / 25.05.07
Physical disabilities can impair consent if they cause the person to be or feel unable to defend themselves or escape. They might then outwardly acquiesce to sex they would otherwise say no to because of fear of being forced or harmed if they refuse. That's one real-life example.

(to me)Obviously, this doesn't mean people with physical and/or mental disabilities cannot consent to sex. It means a person who wants to have sex with a person with disabilities needs to be very careful to take their abilities into account when seeking consent, so that one asks in a way that is noncoercive, and understands the response correctly.

Asking consent can be coercive when the person asked understands the proposition to be an offering of choices where the nonsex choices are clearly made undesirable. i.e. "either consent to sex, or I won't like you anymore," "either consent to sex, or lose your job/partner/roommate/social acceptance," "either consent to sex, or I'll feel hurt and rejected and it will be your fault."
 
 
Ticker
18:36 / 25.05.07
I feel a bit sheepish in turning to scifi as the great blueprint of a better future (jet packs for TtS and myself if you would please) but we are theorizing...so...

In this digital online beepity device age how would a recorded consent blurb be judged? Would you have to get an all human witness/Witness and not use a machine?

We sign waivers and NDA's daily (well some of us) why not a 30 second sober extra party check in?

One subtopic that I usually steer clear of but does pertain to this conversation is people who deny they consented after the fact. I usually avoid the topic because it's scary and leads to badness. But there is a reason I get my partners to review and sign a contract of permitted activites. Of course most people I know keep verbal versions for short term interactions but how would these be transformed if they were registered? We do it in play spaces...

What would the world be like if you had to pause, get a barrier/condom, and then breathlessly whisper into your PDA that you consent to certain activities with so-n-so?
 
 
Ticker
18:43 / 25.05.07
Asking consent can be coercive when the person asked understands the proposition to be an offering of choices where the nonsex choices are clearly made undesirable. i.e. "either consent to sex, or I won't like you anymore," "either consent to sex, or lose your job/partner/roommate/social acceptance," "either consent to sex, or I'll feel hurt and rejected and it will be your fault."

See I think consent registering with an extra party would help there too. Not to get all nostalgic for the bad old times of sexual repression but there were attempts at safety for the party most likely to be taken advantage of. In the old model it caused more problems then it fixed but in terms of someone invested in only our safety asking us 'do we really want to do this'...

Is it me or am I really just advocating the successes of the BDSM community need to be exported to the mainstream?
 
 
grant
18:54 / 25.05.07
They might then outwardly acquiesce to sex they would otherwise say no to because of fear of being forced or harmed if they refuse.

See, I wouldn't call that consent. But maybe that's the problem, then.


Hmm.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:55 / 25.05.07
What would the world be like if you had to pause, get a barrier/condom, and then breathlessly whisper into your PDA that you consent to certain activities with so-n-so?


Huge clunky rationalist that I am, I have no problem with the idea of making a quick note of who's agreed to do what with whom. Thing is, though, outside of the kind of BDSM context that you're talking about, I don't see it really getting around the usual problems inherent in consent.

What if you're not literate? What if for some reason or another it means your job, your livelyhood, your accomodation, your freedom, or your life to write down "yes I am going to make sexings with so-and-so"? What if your partner can later on use the form to blackmail you?

Who gets to say what goes on the paper? What if certain kinds of activities are excluded from being legally consentable-to?

What if the party of the second part puts a gun to your head? Some rapists are quite prepared to take a moment to use condoms and take other security measures, why not spend a few more minutes beating or terrorising your victim into signing a bit of paper to say it's all above board?

What if you feel you are not in a position to refuse? If you're financially or dependant in some other way on the attacker? What if ze emotionally blackmails you?

There are things I will consent to doing with a sober person that I won't do with an intoxicated person. What if you sign the paper and then realise that your paramour is drunk/stoned/other? What if you sign the paper and then ze chugs back an intoxicant?

I love the concept, but the more I think about it the less I believe it's going to work...
 
 
*
18:56 / 25.05.07
Could you trust your third party? Would their attitudes affect how you interpreted your feelings at the time?

Someone assumed recently that because I'm in a D/s relationship that means they have to/should/could ask permission of my partner to "court" me. FUCKINGNO. (and no fucking, ahaha.) If that were the way my relationship worked, I'd have told you when you first expressed interest. You ask me. If I want what you're selling, AND if it's something I need to negotiate with my partner, I'll negotiate it with my partner.
 
 
*
18:57 / 25.05.07
And that's exactly the problem, grant. Thanks for clarifying for me.
 
 
This Sunday
23:08 / 25.05.07
One of the benefits of Barbelith is y'all are, on the whole, far more compelling and concise in arguments/points, than I am. This thread, a few weeks ago, could have spared a bit of head/desk coping, after discussions about whether heavy flirting, or past sexual encounters,makes a later rape okeh. (I was on the not-okeh side, and seriously, I hope everyone at that table was, and were just making some academic point or something.)

The above excerpt from the melancholicfeminista blog, I think is in line with where my concerns immediately go. Specifically that, 'This policy does nothing to create a campus that is more respectful of women, nor does it promote healthy self-image or sexual behavior' climactic note. Because that does sort of seem to be how much operates in US culture. I've moved around a lot in the States, and have yet to see one geographic area where the bulk of sex relations weren't guided by avoiding-penance more than anything else.

I think I like people better than sex, and I don't want to put a lot of individuals on the other side of that, because it seems mean, but I'm having a hard time believing a lot of people don't like a warm body more than they do a person. There's something unhealthy about cultural/atmospheric support for no communication in sexual dialogues/interactions. I think, it's what makes people get all jumpy when theorists (e.g. Dworkin, McLuhan) have addressed the erotic content of nonverbal communications/interactions as a whole. If there's already implicitly communication on a sensory level, what's the hold up on deliberate spoken conversation? It strikes me as a distaste for consent, without having to voice that distaste, but that may just be me being paranoid.

I accept that some people find the imbalance extra-sexy and intriguing, and that this weighs in on many levels, but it seems to require an extra level of patience. The interesting article grant put in above, for example, requires a lot of rumination on both chemically-motivated incapacity and in terms of job ranking, age, et al. A friend of mine has elaborate conviction that a real man would just know when she wanted whatever she wanted and would silently move into some fantastical rough sex act in rarely used stairwell or something. I accept it, but I don't get it.

On a selfish note, with no smooth segue, I'm really mulling over the question of exes, now. How long is someone's partner/-friend/lover an ex before they start to be entirely no longer in the equation of consent/concern? Is there any legit reason for an ex to be involved, any reason to even consider their concerns or feelings on a new relationship/activities? Is this even a type of 'consent' in anywhere near the same way as between active parties?
 
 
Ticker
00:21 / 26.05.07
no means no

What if a CRAZYPILL moment happened and we managed to educate people to have a mainstream safeword? What if 'no' really meant no? Folks like DN's friend maybe cranky if people take them at their word but it is better than someone not having their choice be respected.

What if you feel you are not in a position to refuse? If you're financially or dependant in some other way on the attacker? What if ze emotionally blackmails you?

Well to be perfectly honest and depressing for a moment I suspect the elimination of rape through clear communication will have to take place after the liberation and empowerment of those likely to be taken advantage of.

If you have two (or more)people of relatively equally personal power engaging sexually you can currently still have issues of unclear consent. I suspect this is the only place contracts and the like can be valid. In order to determine if the particpants are accessing full personal choice we would have to look at what social structures are empowering/disempowering them.

Hand me my scifi googles, Barberella...
Polygraph stress test combined with live human sex registrar interview through your PDA. If either of you are not sober at the time of the request it is denied, if you do not allow for intoxication in the stated agreement and someone becomes intoxicated, the agreement is void. (which in my thinking means it is automatically grounds for sexual assault charges.)

I know people are lazy and just want to cut to the humping part. However many of have learned to adjust for safety, why can't that be trendy?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
04:47 / 26.05.07
I can't think of anything less I'd like to do than have a PDA on, and whisper my consent into it, as a prelude to sex. Not that I actually have a PDA. Technological solutions might work for those people who have access to the technology, but as with all technological solutions to 'people' problems, someone will find a way to get around the technology, or to neutralise it.

For myself, practicing consent well is about communication, and learning to listen to people's non-communicative cues -- both as the initiator of a sexual act, to make sure you're being invited, and as the initatee (for want of a better word), because often, it can become clear that someone isn't going to want to listen to you tell them no before you actually it. And if you have a little more time, you have slightly more power with which to distract that person and make yourself safe, or get help.

On the other hand, if someone wants to fuck you and they have the upper hand in terms of power/physical strength, their desire may actually work against that active listening/observing model. So.... Back to square one.

Also (totally silly) no drunken sex? Okay, it's tacky, but I don't want a revolution outlawing it. No way.
 
 
*
05:17 / 26.05.07
From my perspective, the problem is not drunken sex, but drunken "consent". Consent to drunken sex, then get drunk and have sex. Let these things be done indecently, but in order.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
05:45 / 26.05.07
Hmm. You don't think it's possible to knowingly consent to sex at all, if intoxicated?
 
 
This Sunday
06:11 / 26.05.07
I like id's/XK's breakdown of consent to intoxication first, even if I find the practice of such a bit paranoia-inspiring, in a second-guessing sense. It's harder to work your brain into a 'no, I think we're about done now' when you're drunk or all fucked up on funny capsules your cousin fills in his basement. Or the further things you consent to while drunk/drugged might be fun at the time, but you're not fully capable of thinking about the future complications that may arise. But, it's a good model to start off with.

Adding in Terry Southern-inspired technology may be a good idea, but going with Disco's notion that tech is not always readily available, we're back to communication. And, for clarity's sake, verbal communication. Because I know I'm not the only person who can't always read body language totally accurately. Some people just bat their eyes or go around touching people a lot, without any intent to bed them.

And, Disco, I'd think you'd need a scale of intoxication, and going about that in a non-specious way would be difficult. The necessity of intoxication, or the idea that it would facilitate the consent is a bit scary, and it's probably good to discourage, or just cut out, that thought process, entirely. So, it's got to be about scale, or just a no-go situation. If it's about scale, how far below, say, stone drunk do you have to get before it's too low? A question I don't know anybody could answer in a universal way that would satisfy. So total no-contracts-while-intoxicated seems more reasonable to me. For clarity.
 
 
*
17:04 / 26.05.07
Of course I think it's possible to knowingly consent to sex, while intoxicated. I just don't think it's possible to KNOW that someone is knowingly consenting to sex, while they are intoxicated, because the likelihood that the intoxication is altering their perception of their own boundaries is so high.
 
 
Ticker
17:53 / 26.05.07
You don't think it's possible to knowingly consent to sex at all, if intoxicated?

Of course I think it's possible to knowingly consent to sex, while intoxicated. I just don't think it's possible to KNOW that someone is knowingly consenting to sex, while they are intoxicated, because the likelihood that the intoxication is altering their perception of their own boundaries is so high.

The danger of impaired judgment incorrectly representing boundaries and its impact on personal power make it an unacceptable position from which to negotiate. So it follows that while the intoxicated person maybe unaware of the shift the other party (who may or may not also be intoxicated) may now have an unfair advantage in power dynamics. Intoxication is for me a detail to be mutually decided upon.

From experience I can say there are just some people I won't have sexy time with if either of us are 3 degrees off center. However if I'm already moving away from sobriety at the moment of decision I would be more likely to fudge the line to my personal detriment.

I still think if we exported the amazingly hot scene negotiation skills in the BDSM community there would be a big improvement even without technology. There's still abuses, rapes, and other bad shit being done by members of various BDSM communities so please don't think I'm saying they are all sparkly shiny examples. However I do think there are a few stellar communites that have near perfect safety & respect protocols and inforce them.


Er, am I the only one who has had hot (and fast) erotic negotiations?
 
 
*
21:56 / 26.05.07
I have some instinctual reservations I'm having trouble putting into Headshoppery, but I'll try.

I want BDSM to be different from non-BDSM sex, and for me the language that we use is a big part of that. For instance, what people who don't identify as kinky call "dirty talk," I call "humiliation." I don't want "humiliation" to be normalized the way "dirty talk" often is, and people who don't think of themselves as kinky probably don't want to think of their "dirty talk" as "humiliation." I'm not sure that I want to change that; someone who really enjoys talking dirty with hir lovers might feel very differently about it if ze thought of it as humiliation, and I don't want that to happen if it takes away from others' pleasure. At the same time, though, if I'm with a partner who doesn't think of dirty talk as humiliation I have to take the extra time to explain that that's how I think of it in order to negotiate. (That's probably part of why I'm exclusively having sex with kinky people right now.)

So for me speedy, sexy, effective negotiation around sex is somewhat dependent on a common vocabulary (BDSM-standard dialect) that I don't necessarily want to become normalized to everyone. If you can think of a way to export those negotiation skills without enforcing the common language, I'm all for it.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
02:46 / 27.05.07
I just think the consent issue, and the issue of negotiation, is a whole bunch more messy than can be dealt with by communities enforcing codes.

The issue of intoxication is more messy than can be dealt with via regulation, too -- ie, the only way to prevent people from wanting to fuck when they're drunk (and not having consented beforehand) is to make a rule. And a rule is only enforceable via punishment if you don't follow it. Firstly, how the hell would that rule be enforceable in any practical way? And secondly, what kind of punishment do you imagine would work?

(That is, of course, unless you're advocating public health policy about staying safe when you're intoxicated, which is great, common sense, I don't have a problem with it. But public policy is not 'enforceable'.)

I do engage in fast, hott negotiations doing BDSM, and I do think that BDSM negotiations about consent and being honest about how you like to fuck are 'exportable' to non-kinky sexual contexts. But BDSM cultures have a long history of valorising fucking while intoxicated, actually. Popper, anyone? And those are not the 'bad old days' of the 70's, either, they're happening right now in a men's sex venue near you. (I think.)

Sex is messy and dangerous. It will never be safe, no matter how many rules we apply. For a lot of people, its erotic charge depends on NOT being safe, a lot of the time. There is no way to legislate against that.

(I think the moment when I get most anti-state, anti-community and anti-regulation is when I think about sex. I'm a libertarian at heart, I guess.)
 
 
alas
03:57 / 27.05.07
Also (totally silly) no drunken sex? Okay, it's tacky, but I don't want a revolution outlawing it. No way.

I speak as someone who regularly has had drunken sex in the past and probably will again in the future with my partner. I also drive about 5 miles over the speed limit on a regular basis. I actually think both of these acts are risky, and kind of stupid at some level. But I do them.

I think the thing that I'm wanting to realize in all this, and in thinking about this from a theoretical standpoint and not one where I'm trying to actually write a campus policy or our post-revolution constitution's bill of sexual civil rights and wrongs (heh heh)... is more that sex is always potentially dangerous when it involves any "penetration" of a body or intimate zone, even the touching (or just, say, staring at) a zone of the body regarded as "intimate," by another person is arguably a kind of penetration. Saying something sexual to someone is a kind of penetration. Even writing to you, in this space is a kind of penetration of your minds, and therefore your bodies, and it carries risks.

So a real risk is there in all these sexual acts--risks of serious hurt, risks of miscommunication, risks of legal action in the future. My limited understanding of BDSM communities is that the best ones take extra care in this regard at the very least because they are aware that the acts they're engaging in do, baldly, include actions that are "illegal" on their face, acts that look like (and could reasonably be 'read' as) rape, that look like torture, as Beres mentions.

And, in fact, all the "consent" in the world, whether verbal or even signed legal release forms or words whispered into a PDA in legally approved format, have a good chance of holding no legal water whatsoever if someone is accidentally injured, decides to press charges after the fact, or if they decided they didn't really consent to certain kinds of punishments, humiliations, restraints, or activities that a jury might view as wrong on their face.

So BDSM people realize that the risk doesn't entirely go away with safe words or negotiations, it is managed risk. And what it seems to have the potential to open up, in fact, is a heightened attentitiveness to one another. To me it reveals that "seemingly" less dangerous, so called "vanilla" sex, is a myth at some level, and that 'vanilla' stereotype of 'normal' non-BDSM sex, kinda makes people lazy about each other, not alert enough to, aware enough of, their own actions or to their partner's feelings.

So, hypothesizing here: This potential lack of alertness/awareness is going to be exacerbated not just by alcohol, but will also be reinforced by anything that "normalizes" the sexual act being engaged in some way. If straight white male construction workers are "used" to being able to heckle and hoot at young women passersby, with no seeming risk, they have no incentive, no pressure to be alert to a woman's reaction to their words or actions--or at least as something to be taken seriously or feared. It's a "vanilla" encounter for them, but it's not necessarily vanilla to her.

So it's a truism that there are ways to have 'safer' sex, but sex that is totally safe is probably only the kind you have in your own head or maybe involving only your own very clean hands or something involving AA batteries. Most but not all of us want the risk of sexual experience with another person or more, we cherish the riskiness of it at some level.

But communities have to strive to come up with policies that may help to manage that danger (at the very least virtually all communities do outlaw rape, e.g., and in the state I live in if a person is drunk or on drugs he or she cannot be said to consent to sex)--and BDSM communities have found many strategies for doing so more thoughtfully, in ways that may directly or indirectly translate to less-overtly-kinked sex. But the danger does not go away.

All of which is a round about way of saying the obvious... that I think there is no sure blueprint for safety; sex, human life is dangerous and thrilling. But that doesn't mean we give up, that communities stop writing policies, just say "anything goes." And it doesn't mean I won't probably go on taking the risk of speeding, and hoping I don't get caught, and of having sex under less than safer conditions. But I think I need to be honest that that's what I'm doing, for both my own sake and my now and future partners'.
 
 
*
07:06 / 27.05.07
Where did you get the idea that I want to legislate anything, Disco? What I'm interested in is getting people individually to make individual decisions that take into account things like the risk that the person who seems to be acquiescing, if just a little tipsy, is going to feel absolutely shitty about what you've engaged in when they've sobered up. And, yeah, now that you've said it, alas, I think it's that heightened awareness that I want people to have. There's an awful lot assumed about "plain" sex because there's a "right way" to do it which is supposed to be okay with virtually everyone, and that's constraining to negotiations. It's hard to say no if you can't think no and it's hard even to think no when you're taught from forever that you're supposed to want a particular kind of sex. People who are kinky have already discovered that the kind of sex they want is not the "right" kind, and come to terms with it sort of. They're likely to make fewer and safer assumptions thereafter, I think. So how to help people realize that just because they're doing what people are "supposed" to want, doesn't mean it's safe or okay for everyone?
 
 
This Sunday
09:01 / 27.05.07
I happened to share this thread with some folks, and so I just spent the day bumming about LA, from restaurants to public water fountains to apartments and back, having a distended conversation on sex-conversations/negotiations. We gained people, we lost people, we drank more than we probably should have, since we were, ostensibly, trying for actual useful results from the conversation.

The only fundamentals we really agreed on, were that (a) sex-negotiations/discussions are fun and incredibly hot/thrilling in the moment (and not necessarily clinical at all), and (b) anybody who's totally unwilling to have the discussion even on the broadest of imaginable levels, is probably angling towards something. Vocalizing would reduce the wiggle room.

Interesting, to me, was that issues of consent and at least an attempt at safety/politeness sort of sublimated to being implieds, while the discussion became more about encouraging an exploratory element. The nature and direction that exploration took divided people up, yes, and we lost a few people who were very very locked into what I consider (more than somewhat biased, as that consideration is) standardized models of sexuality. The freedom to suggest things to have them shot down, or reparsed, without fearing the suggestion seemed to really hit a note. That encouragement, be it willingness or allowance, of exploration hadn't really hit me when I mulled over this stuff in my own head; I already expect it of myself to suggest things other people might disagree with/to.

I have to wonder, then, as I get ready to crash, if this is a mode of concern (that a sex-partner might not consent to a suggestion or even the act of suggestion, a question being asked), which can be extrapolated broader, or if I just know very neurotic and perverse people. It seems like a part of the thread backs this as something that could be mapped over whole sections of society, but then, I did notice those involved in the day's travelling discussion who were more normative in their sexual practices, of whatever bent, weren't much interested in continuing along where the rest of us were going. I can't help but wish they did continue along, under the assumption that there's something in that ascribing to a (presumed) classic model, that is useful to, and then missing from, the conversation.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
13:37 / 28.05.07
This is just a quick post to say, I think I was overly hasty in things I said in the posts above, and that when I'm not crazy tired I want to come back and engage with the points id, BHIB and alas made. Particularly about the notion that when people assume that their sexual practices are normative, or 'normal', that this exerts a pressure over being able to refuse, or speak up about wanting to do something else. I think the division between what are considered 'normal' sexual practices and those that aren't is key, and I'm glad people brought it up.
 
 
Ticker
16:12 / 28.05.07
Well I sort of think my BDSM community isn't a specific name branded group (maybe it's regional group think) so there's nobody to reprimand me if I don't do decent negotiations.

Just as I don't view safe sex as the required tool of only one sexually active group, I don't view negotiations as a communication tool of only one group. Okay maybe some groups use barriers and prehump discussions more frequently but I still think these things are internalized as personal toolsets.

In my non BDSM sexual courtships long before any fluids are possibly exchanged we discuss current partner status, sexual history, STD's, and if het, reproductive choices. This is usually all part of the getting-to-know-you-and-I-want-to-touch-you stage. A few rather troublesome events occured when I didn't have these conversations. So now I require them before the greenlight for a sexy dance party is issued. For me the specific sex act negotiations are a part of the greenlight celebration. I've decided that yes indeed this seems like a good idea, how do you feel? Are we both into being nekked? Grand.

General consent is established wihtout shading over into chocolate activity options.

Though for me personally the more BDSM activity negotiations are established before a relationship is founded.
 
 
alas
17:36 / 03.09.07
I love this little article from a student at Antioch College, arguably the home of "consent policies" (and certainly the most mocked for theirs). It's about the sexiness of being "asked," and it's written by a male-id'd person about a female id'd person doin' the askin' & all in a very cute way.

That's all I have to say, really...[But everybody, give a little love out to Antioch--if you read any of the articles in that paper about what's going on right now, institutionally, you'll see it's chaotic. And while there are villains and incompetants and long-term writing on the wall, plenty of really good, creative, intelligent people are simply caught in the chaos right now.]
 
 
diz
16:55 / 06.09.07
All parties must have unimpaired judgement (examples that may cause impairment include but are not limited to alcohol, drugs, mental health conditions, physical health conditions).

That seems like an unworkably extreme absolutist approach to a complicated grey area, for a number of reasons:

* Sobriety is not a hard binary on/off thing - there is a whole spectrum of intoxication, or, perhaps more accurately, a whole spectrum of intoxication for each individual drug. Saying that someone can only give meaningful consent if they have not had a single drink or what-have-you is ludicrous.
* Different drugs and intoxicants do different things to the brain, and have different effects on judgement. Someone who's been doing a lot of coke will be affected by it, but I don't think it's accurate to say that they aren't aware of what they're doing or in control of their actions.
* Individuals who choose to partake in drug or alcohol use presumably do so knowing that it may have an effect on their perceptions and judgements. It seems unreasonable not to expect people to accept responsibility for that decision and its consequences.
* Further developing the point above, a lot of people enjoy having sex under the influence of various drugs and intoxicants, and it's not at all uncommon for people to report that the lowering of inhibitions produced by, say, alcohol, allows them to relax and enjoy sex in a way that they can't when they're sober, especially if they come from sexually repressive backgrounds or have body image issues or anything else where their own self-consciousness creates an obstacle to sexual fulfillment. While we could certainly discuss whether or not that's a healthy response to such a situation, it seems unnecessarily paternalistic to protect people who feel that way from themselves.
* Do we really want this level of state or community intrusion in our sex lives? Really?

I mean, obviously, there are definitely points when someone is too far gone to give meaningful consent, and there's definitely a tendency not to give this issue enough weight when discussing consent, but that's a far cry from saying that you can only give meaningful consent when you're totally sober.

From my perspective, the problem is not drunken sex, but drunken "consent". Consent to drunken sex, then get drunk and have sex. Let these things be done indecently, but in order.

1) Life doesn't work that way. Not every sexual encounter is planned hours in advance, nor should it be.
2) You have no right to tell other people how to drink and fuck, unless you're a person with whom they are drinking and fucking.

Sex is messy and dangerous. It will never be safe, no matter how many rules we apply. For a lot of people, its erotic charge depends on NOT being safe, a lot of the time. There is no way to legislate against that.

Well said.

What I'm interested in is getting people individually to make individual decisions that take into account things like the risk that the person who seems to be acquiescing, if just a little tipsy, is going to feel absolutely shitty about what you've engaged in when they've sobered up.

1) That concern has to be balanced against the individual's responsibility to own hir own boundaries and the individual's right to hir own process of sexual exploration and sexual expression. This includes allowing people the freedom to make bad decisions.
2) You don't know that the person is going to feel shitty in the morning. You're presuming that that's how they're going to feel, which is very presumptuous indeed. They might just as easily have a fulfilling night and wake up feeling great. You don't know, and I'm deeply creeped out by the implicit assumption that sex is something we should expect people to regret and feel ashamed of in the morning by default.
3) It is just flat-out not appropriate to engage in this level of protecting people from themselves and their expressed desires. We should presume agency, not victimhood, whenever possible.

So how to help people realize that just because they're doing what people are "supposed" to want, doesn't mean it's safe or okay for everyone?

You can't. Fundamentally, this is something they have to learn themselves. You can make information available, you can try to change the environment to be more sex-positive and open to people expressing and exploring safely, but there is always trial and error involved, and people ultimately need to figure out their own boundaries for themselves in a process that inevitably involves mistakes.

I think it's interesting that you're getting so caught up in trying to prevent someone from getting hurt because "they're doing what people are 'supposed' to want," and your reaction is ... to tell them what they're supposed to want. We cannot presume to tell other people what their boundaries "should" be, or to make judgements on their behalf and without their consent that something is not healthy or OK.
 
 
*
23:21 / 08.09.07
Diz, I'm surprised by the vehemence of your tone, which seems out of proportion for a discussion that doesn't actually propose any restrictions on your sex life. Most of this discussion happened months ago, and I'm interested to know what's making this a charged issue for you at this time.

You have no right to tell other people how to drink and fuck, unless you're a person with whom they are drinking and fucking.

Even then, I would argue. Outside of supporting generally agreed-upon laws designed to prevent rape and assault, I don't tell anyone how to drink and fuck, particularly not the people I drink and fuck with. I only tell people how to drink and fuck with me, and part of that is "not in combination, unless we start drinking with the plan to fuck already in place."

Please let us note that the title of this thread is "let's THEORIZE consent," not "let's dictate the laws of consent which we shall enforce in the countries in which we have power over the legislative authority." My generalizing about consent should be considered theory, any laws I advance herein should be considered laws only in the sense that they are theories tested and found sound by experiment, and anything I say that sounds like a proscription should be tested (perhaps by asking me) to see if it actually is a proscription or an offering of a guideline that's worked for me to allow it to be tested in the realm of the theoretical or possibly the empirical.
 
 
alas
14:56 / 16.09.07
I suspect that maybe Diz just noticed this conversation for the first time when I bumped it up? But I agree, (zipp)id, that his response is disproportionate, BUT, for me, it's a pretty familiar disproprotion.

Ever since word of the Antioch Sexual Offense Prevention Policy first hit the news wires in a little AP story in 1995, when nearly every newspaper in the country wrote a similar "look at what the crazies are up to now!" op-ed piece about it, and Saturday Night Live spoofed it in a sketch, the response to the idea of trying to create policies that empower all partners in a sexual relationship, has been disproportionate in exactly this way.

The amusing thing, to me, is that Antioch's policy was and is an utterly democratic, bottom-up, student-conceived and -developed policy, that was discussed, revised, tweaked, ratified, and in the nearly fifteen years since its inception has been repeatedly affirmed by an overwhelming majority of the campus community... of a very small, arguably "dying" liberal arts college in an obscure corner of Southwest Ohio!

Yet commentators like George Will (perhaps the most respected conservative syndicated columnist in the country), Michael Goldfarbe (of NPR and the NY Times), and this lesser known female columnist Meghan Daum of the Los Angeles Times all felt compelled, just this summer, to attack the policy one more time, decrying it at best as symptomatic of Antioch's "decay" or, most ridiculously simplistically, as the cause of all its problems (as Daum's title has it: "Who Killed Antioch? Womyn!").

I find this disproportion very intriguing. As the feminist blogger I linked to above notes, Antioch's policy is different from other colleges because it's a totally bottom-up policy, created by and for students to govern their own behaviors; other colleges have adopted similar policies, however, that are pretty much designed to indemnify the colleges as corporations against responsibilty for date rapes that occur on their campuses.

Yet, ironically, those colleges have NOT been taken to task or held up to ridicule as Antioch is, and as Diz is doing to the whole notion of even discussing whether we can even reasonably desire that sexual activity between two or more people should always be consensual. Beneath all this disproportionate contempt seems to lie a suggestion that, as a society, we cannot possibly seek to reduce the likelihood of rape between acquaintances or to empower people in relationships to be more clear about what they want or don't want to do.

I smell fear. I smell the familiar old knee-jerk mockery that occurs whenever women and other historically disempowered sexual and gender groups assert power in our society. I smell the anger of privileged groups at the loss of their entitlement, their ability to assume that the world will just provide them with whatever they want and will, as a bonus, also hide the cost of their desires from them.

Maybe I shouldn't be following my nose in this case. You tell me, ok Diz?
 
 
BioDynamo
17:52 / 03.11.07
On the sex-while-intoxicated-topic, a feministic crew in Austria that organised a party put up posters all around giving their rules for consent that I found interesting and quite clever: rather than intoxication, they focused on sanity. So basically, no sex while insane. The next clause was, if I recall correctly, that drugs does not affect sanity.

A typical "trying-to-be-provocatively-non-PC male" reaction (*yawn*) was "cool, this means I can have sex while stoned!"

I had to point out that the consequence of the policy was rather that whoever exceeded boundaries and transgressed against others would not have the defence of temporary insanity, the use of which I think is a much bigger problem than the consent-while-tipsy/stoned/whatever...

So some people that were directly affected by these particular rules were positive towards them because they were formulated in a positive way, and because they were not ready to look at the actual restrictive consequences, which I generally think is a good suggestion for people setting up such frameworks.
 
 
*
22:45 / 04.11.07
Of course you probably also pointed out that such a policy stigmatizes people with a variety of mental health conditions that may not preclude them from negotiating consent effectively, but which may have gotten them labeled "insane" by the medical establishment at some time or another. Well done then.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:10 / 05.11.07
I'm afraid that I'm not totally clear on the distinction your friends in Austria were drawing, Biodynamo. Is "insane" there doing duty for "not able to make a rational decision about the advisability of a particular sexual act", regardless of whether this is a temporary or permanent condition?
 
 
Jackie Susann
21:55 / 26.11.07
Holy shit I love this thread! I am involved in a group in Sydney organising for the upcoming International Day of Action for Community Response to Sexual Assault - we're putting on some workshops and a party. A few of us stayed up late last night planning the workshop on consent we'll be running - God, I wish I had read this first.

On the issues around drink/drugs - I think its hopelessly unreasonable, and undesirable, to try to develop any policy that rules out consent when you're wasted. Many people get drunk partly because it makes it easier for them to consent to things they want - not a brilliant situation, but a real one. And a lot of us enjoy the sensations of drunken sex, or the ways our bodies feel when we fuck on drugs.

Anyway, we will be talking about drugs and alcohol in the workshop, but more about planning ahead, thinking about your limits, and what responsibilities you have if you're seeking consent from someone who's wasted - how do you know if they're really okay with what's happening? I think that's a healthy and positive part of consent as an active process.
 
 
alas
14:53 / 06.12.07
I invited some Antioch students to come up and discuss their policy one evening for a group of students on my campus. The Antioch students explained that they always make sure that there's people who agree to be sober at a party, who watch out for problematic power dynamics at work.

They check in with couples/groups if they think they're seeing someone deliberately (or maybe subconsciously) getting someone else messed up in order to fuck them.

They ask the person who is getting messed up if they are ok, if they want someone to walk them home; the decision-making process is up to the person, basically, but there's someone there to remind them: you can say no, you can stop this, slow down if you need to and take time to think about whether this is really best for you right now.

One of the students said that if she had a nickel for every time a person came up the next day and said "Oh my god, thanks for getting me out of that mess" she wouldn't be eating in the caf.

I am concerned about too much policing, but I am also really wary about the way that the cover of "but some people like sex on drugs/alcohol some times!" can become a way to say that we can't do much/anything about exploitative uses of alcohol/drugs, etc. I think it can be approached more sanely, but it has to come largely through training people out of the rape-culture mentality that we all pretty much are bathed in here, and then bottom-up development of policies and strategies. If "the rules" come from the top, it's deadly.
 
  

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