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Bigotry and reality

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
02:25 / 06.04.08
life is much easier if one cites one's credentials;

I think you will find that citing your credentials on barbelith isn't going to do much at all for you, actually. not writing bullshit goes a lot farther.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
02:40 / 06.04.08
Still, this ties in with my original proposition in that, if we amplified the voices of irrational women, we might believe fairy stories and realise that people and dinosaurs did in fact co-exist and that people ate all the dinosaurs, that is how they died out. I base this on the fact that I hang out with a lot of female separatists and have noticed that a high proportion of them are vegetarian.

I'm going to try to follow your logic here:

A) you hang out with "a lot" of female seperatists
B) you have noticed that "a high proportion" of them are vegetarian

therefore

C) irrational women believe dinosaurs were driven to extinction by human consumption.

disregarding for now the statistical validity of "a lot" as a sample size, etc., I believe either that I'm missing one of your steps, or possibly that your theory is missing a step in the first place. Possibly.
 
 
pony
02:53 / 06.04.08
[i'm clearly too drunk on a saturday night to be getting involved with any of this, but i think it's obvious that everyone trying to make rational arguments against Supersister is missing the "3. ???????" & "4. PROFIT!" steps of contemporary logic].
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:10 / 06.04.08
And powerful rich men and their Daddies pay scientists wages.

Who pays your wages then? The Barrister Fairy?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:12 / 06.04.08
A) you hang out with "a lot" of female seperatists
B) you have noticed that "a high proportion" of them are vegetarian

C) ???????

D) irrational women believe dinosaurs were driven to extinction by human consumption.

E) Profit!


Fixd.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
09:43 / 06.04.08
Is there anyone here prepared to make the intellectual leap of actually trying to understand where I am coming from in an open minded way without accusing me of intolerance or insanity?

No, that intellectual leap would make me insane and actively choosing insanity seems a little foolish.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:54 / 06.04.08
It's a bit like reading Julie Bindel, this. The terminology and language clearly resemble someone with much the same source material as I, but at some point it's taken a turn for the strange.

So, let's try to sort this one out. I think, Supersister, your brain chemistry might be getting tangled between the metaphorical and the literal - hence the dinosaurs. Burrowing down, and temporarily leaving out the ill-informed rambling about AIDS, which is nto doing you any favours, I believe that what you are trying to say is something like:

Currently, the scientific establishment's membership is mainly made up of white, university-educated Western men. As a result of that, it is canted disproportionately towards fields of inquiry of interest to this group, and also towards conclusions which serve the interests of this group and this group's paymasters. This is not actually a reflection on science or the scientific method per se, but rather the scientific establishment. I believe, personally, that the fields of study reflect white men's fears of extinction, and so focus on AIDS, endangered species and dinosaurs (this bit is a bit mad, FYI - palaeontology is a very photogenic branch of science, but not one of the most heavily funded by corporate interests). Also as a result of that, the credibility of one's research, and access to tools with which to research, is often conditioned by one's ability to gain qualifications which are further gatekept in such a way that many of those who receive them will be well-off, white and male.

Because the interests of the wealthy, white and male are often represented as the interests of society, this has meant that scientific inquiry, which is largely performed by university-educated white men, is frequently given value over other forms of inquiry or ways of reaching conclusions which are less identifiably rational, which are often associated, consciously, or unconsciously, with the subaltern, not least because the subaltern is prevented by reasons of wealth and connections from getting access to the training or the opportunities that would allow them to join the scientific establishment.


This is not in itself hugely controversial, and is not a bad basis for proceeding - unfortunately, the utterly batshit stuff about how we have legends of fire-breathing dragons is because at the time of the Roman Empire people were using fire to cook and eat dinosaurs, and that at some point the white man has suppressed this fact for whatever reason, is getting in the way of that, as is the ill-informed conspiracy theorising about AIDS, which does I think often annoy people because it assumes that Africans are basically less important than a really good conspiracy theory (see also "but what if the Holocaust didn't happen" - the point is, this is not a profitable "what if").

However, we come up here against a basic issue, which is that the scientific establishment != science. The scientific establishment = people, and people who often have reasons outside pure science to identify, perform and present their research - so you get controversialist science (The Bell Curve), populist science, corporate science (pet corporate scientists fighting holding actions on global warming) - in short, Bad Science.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
10:22 / 06.04.08
Yes, people might be prepared to engage with you if you employed logic rather than rambling about AIDs and dinosaurs. Alternatively I can recommend the Daily Mail website to you because online each of us has a spiritual home and you may find some agreement there.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:24 / 06.04.08
If it is a single virus, I think it's entirely possible it is man made.

Which is an opinion you are of course welcome to. But being as this is Headshop why don't you try and track down some kind of evidence to support your belief. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to do. If you want to convince people to come round to your way of thinking then you really need to be working a little harder.

Incidentally, you seem to have forgotten that scientists are present in countries across the world. Not just the ones populated by white people. China, the Middle East, Africa, South America, and many many others have scientists working in a wide variety of occupations.

And I don't think it's without the realms of possibility that someone went around intentionally infecting gay men with a deadly virus, not at all. I don't like the idea, but knowing what I know about the extent of hatred towards homosexuals, I'd say it is very very possible. Knowing that the same group also have a tendency to hate afro-americans and then discovering shortly afterwards an entire continent imploding from the same sickness, which appears to have originated in the very last apartheid regime, well it does make you wonder.

So, just to be clear, you are actually just speculating wildly without any actual basis for your beliefs beyond some poorly thought out arguments.

People tend to forget these days that HIV is actually pretty bad in Western countries too. It's just that we can actually afford the medicines which allow people to live their lives in a relatively normal manner. The reason that the problem is so much worse on the African continent is due to a wide variety of political and socio-economic factors. Plus the fact that the pharmaceutical giants constantly try to block cheaper generic versions of their anti-retroviral meds being made because it means they won't make so much money from the sale.

If HIV is a "created" virus designed to target only coloured people and homosexual men then why design it to have a higher antigenic drift rate than the common cold and thereby rendering it utterly incurable? How come it can infect women as well? Given that the virus infects all races, and all genders, it seems more likely that, if it were an engineered plague, then it was designed to kill...well...any sexually active human on the planet regardless of their race, colour or creed.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:25 / 06.04.08
And how come lesbians have the lowest infection rate? Shouldn't we be looking for a conspiracy of evil female supremacists? Are they the ones the male scientists are genetically submissive to?
 
 
COG
11:44 / 06.04.08
We should have guessed months ago that all the Headshop needed to revitalise it was a giant Lesbian AIDS Dragon Conspiracy thread.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:50 / 06.04.08
oh, right. this thread contains a total pillock.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
13:22 / 06.04.08
I'd like to hear a bit more about this coming extinction of white/Jewish males.
If we accept Supersister's theory that science is motivated by white males' fear for their survival then we'd also have to accept that this extinction has been a long time coming, about a thousand years in fact, if we say that the first person to use scientific methodology was Ibn al-Haytham in his 1021 Book of Optics. Unfortunately, al-Haytham, while male, wasn't white or Jewish, so he wasn't under any threat of extinction. Moving forward and into Europe there's the age of enlightenment, Francis Bacon, Rene Descartes and the like, and they're all white males, so we can say that white males have felt themselves to be under threat (from what?) for at least four hundred years. What happened four hundred (or one thousand) years ago to make white males invent this defense mechanism?
Also, since there are (mostly male) scientists of all races, is it males who will be becoming extinct? If so the prospects for women don't look too good unless we start freezing sperm and cloning- wait, that's science, and women have something (as yet not articulated in this thread or by anyone anywhere) that beats science*.
Or is this extinction perhaps metaphorical, the way we say that Disco is dead? That's a more defensible position, since there are men dumb enough to see feminism as a threat as opposed to a challenge and opportunity, but those men don't tend to be scientists, and if they are they are Bad Scientists, since they would have to ignore the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

*=I call this power...DRAGONFORCE!
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:34 / 06.04.08
This is not in itself hugely controversial, and is not a bad basis for proceeding - unfortunately, the utterly batshit stuff about how we have legends of fire-breathing dragons is because at the time of the Roman Empire people were using fire to cook and eat dinosaurs, and that at some point the white man has suppressed this fact for whatever reason, is getting in the way of that - Haus

Well, presumably, one could say the same for historians and classicists as one says for scientists. Namely, that they are disproportionately wealthy white men whose interests and filters are shaped by their identity. Obviously, such an argument is a lamentably inadequate justification for essentially picking and choosing which bits of knowledge one chooses to believe in but I think that the use of identity over evidence is fairly common, now quite often employed by the republican party. And while one might think that the right-wing dismissal of certain parts of science - on the grounds that it is liberal, atheist, and anti-business - is rather different to the critique sketched above, the appeal to explanations of power, motive and so on looks pretty similar to me. These are weapons "MADE IN CRITICALLAND" as Bruno Latour would say.

Thus the broad strategy of Supersisters argument is a pretty familiar one (repetition making any argument stronger of course) and it is quite interesting to see how these sorts of arguments seem to be recurrent feature of current ideological battles, from deriding the reality based community to dismissing the Lancet report on Iraqi casualties.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:05 / 06.04.08
I know it's tempting, Lurid, but you can't try to liken every position you disagree with with the Republican party. It's an inverse Godwin. Otherwise, broadly, yes. The main difference between scientists and classicists, really, is one of scale. If you want to be a leading scientist, the apparatus and associates you need for your projects tend to cost a fair chunk of money, requiring either direct or indirect funding either from govermental or business sources (one interesting side-element of that being of course that whereas you certainly get scientists of every gender, nation and colour, a lot of them end up working for companies or funded institutions listed in the West and with western leadership).

But absolutely - the Academy in general might be said to have many of the same limitations as the subset of the Academy we tend to call the sciences. It's a sign of the comparative unimportance of, say, Classics to the serious business of corporate activity that it tends not to be harnessed very often for developmental or indeed obfuscatory purposes. Oliver Taplin is rarely called upon to express an opinion on way or the other on climate change, for example, which is probably right and proper.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:19 / 06.04.08
Every position? In this case, the whole "scientists are biased" thing is pretty entrenched in Republican party propoganda. And I was reading this while I was writing that last entry, which is partly about the relationship between science studies, conspiracy theories and the right. If I'm guilty of anti-Godwin, I'm not sure it is here.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:32 / 06.04.08
Well, presumably, one could say the same for historians and classicists as one says for scientists.

Dude, what?

And while one might think that the right-wing dismissal of certain parts of science - on the grounds that it is liberal, atheist, and anti-business - is rather different to the critique sketched above, the appeal to explanations of power, motive and so on looks pretty similar to me.

Okay, now this I do broadly agree with. One sees virtually the same kinds of arguments offered up by the Christian Right (especially the parts about dinosaurs and people living concurrently, which as I mentioned is as much at home in a Chick tract as it is here in whatever la-la-land our new friend is inhabiting). The current US administration is demonstrably manifesting a powerful anti-science bent. Witness the rejection of the Lancet report as mentioned above, and the general hostility to any kind of meaningful record--let alone rational evaluation--of the facts and figures relating to the Iraq war. Witness also the destruction of science education in schools, with the hoplessly irrational concept of Intelligent Design being pushed on educators in place of evolution; and the horrendous sex ed. which rejects a reality-based approach backed up with real research in favour of unscientific but politically and theologically popular abstinance-only propaganda, thus denying young people access to meaningful choices about their bodies. I don't really see much to choose between "scientists are obsessed with dinosaurs because they fear their own extinction!" and "scientists are obsessed with dinosaurs because they have an evil atheist liberal gay sexy agenda."
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:52 / 06.04.08

Well, presumably, one could say the same for historians and classicists as one says for scientists.

Dude, what?


Obviously, playing too much wow is rotting my brain.

My point wasnt a churlish tu quoque, as I've got a lot of time for historians and classicists. I'm not trying to say that are just as "bad" a scientists - as Haus says, there is good reason to believe that scientists are worse than most in academia simply because there are vastly greater incentives for them to support particular ideological causes. My point was simply that if you are going to go all tin foil hat and dismiss "science" on the basis that its all white men, I doubt you are going to have much trouble doing the same with history and embracing our dragon eating past. True, in a sense the damage done to history seems more extreme in this example, but since the status of history in popular discourse is somewhat lower than that of science (which is lamentable) it likely balances out in a perverse way.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:05 / 06.04.08
Well, the dragon thing is a bit complex - you know the bit where the shapeshifting lizards stopped being a metaphor in David Icke's brain and actually became shapeshifting lizards? Something similar is happening here, I think. The pre-fusebox version is probably something like:

In a utopian past, there were many forms and methods of learning and knowledge coexisting, including the larval form of what we now call science or the scientific method, and folk wisdom, intuition, magical thinking and so on. Over time, the masculine forces gained the upper hand, and the other forms of thought and of social organisation were stigmatised and persectuted. The destruction of these forms of thought survives in metaphors and legends - for example the slaying of the great snake Pytho by Apollo and the institution in its place of a woman who receives mystical visions, but who does so under the control of a hierarchy of male priests, who interpret her visions. What there is left of these alternative forms of knowledge survives only in remnants, in folk wisdom and superstition, and the mainstream rationalist consensus undermines the value of those survivals at all times to keep people from restoring other, less rational forms of thought to positions of equality.

Post-fusebox, this turns into the coexistence of giant lizards with men. It's either a misunderstanding of a nuanced point being made by someone else, or what happened to a fully-understood point after the fuses blew.
 
 
Supersister
13:29 / 07.04.08
Thanks WBHP for translating me! I think you have understood me correctly and I hope it is clear that my example about women, fairy tales and dragons was intended as a hypothetical illustration but that personally I believe it to be a possibility. Carbon dating may well be as phoney and self serving as the carbon market for all I know.

I'm sad you think me uninformed about AIDS though, simply because I am suspicious about official doctrine. Again, I am sure laughter and ridicule may ensue, but isn't it just too convenient that Europe and the US steal mineral resources from the rich continent of Africa, perpetuate the myth that it is in fact poor and purport to be sending help in the form of AID, whilst the WHITE house - seat of US Government, no less, is full of the President's AIDES and the entire continent is dying of a disease we are told originates in apartheid South Africa called AIDS? At the very least, whether the HIV virus exists, causes the condition or not, is man made or not, or has simply been permitted to take hold like the Iraqi looters were allowed to run riot across Baghdad whilst the invading forces hold up their hands helplessly saying not my problem, this terminology reveals a manifestly deeply biased and sinister murderous collective consciousness.

Such 'common sense' deductions and suppositions cannot be supported scientifically but what I am saying is that this should not mean they are not valid or of value. Scientific method is only the superior form of logic and rational to the scientist. There are other ways of thinking and other beliefs systems which may be excluded by the mass media and official doctrine but it is only because they claim moral superiority that they nervously and angrily ridicule and dismiss out of hand. If science, and history and government and classics and engineering etc, were to become more inclusive, I think the very scientific method would have to adapt and that this could only be a good thing.

As for the Lancet report, I don't see this as a scientific study, it is a record of unecessary deaths due to the US invasion. The only science bit is the classification of what constitutes a death as a result of conflict, eg. is a death from a treatable illness attributable to the conflict on account of the fact the hospital was blown up?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:51 / 07.04.08
Aides... AIDS... I see it all now!1!!!23!
 
 
Evil Scientist
14:04 / 07.04.08
Aides... AIDS... I see it all now!1!!!23!

Now I'm really worried about all those illegal !!!aliens!!!

I'm sad you think me uninformed about AIDS though, simply because I am suspicious about official doctrine.

Well it's good that you're informed about the AIDS pandemic because I was a little worried you were totally ignorant about the levels of infection in the West. Not as bad as on the African continent, but still high.

Such 'common sense' deductions and suppositions cannot be supported scientifically

Or, indeed, at all.
 
 
Supersister
14:13 / 07.04.08
Do I need to point out that in military terms aliens are foreigners and therefore potentially can be murdered with impunity?

As I understand it, present doctrine proscribes that 'Western' AIDS is of a different strain, and one which is much more easily treated.

And isn't it really the ultimate in arrogance to suggest another's opinion is totally incapable of support? Precisely the kind of mindset I say is damaging to us all.
 
 
Evil Scientist
14:37 / 07.04.08
And isn't it really the ultimate in arrogance to suggest another's opinion is totally incapable of support?

Not when it's totally incapable of support it's not.

As I understand it, present doctrine proscribes that 'Western' AIDS is of a different strain, and one which is much more easily treated.

Then you misunderstand it. HIV-1 is globally active, is highly transmittable, and highly virulent. HIV-2 is present in West Africa and isn't quite as easily transmitted as HIV-1.

The reason people on the African continent are more vulnerable is the lack of permanent access to the medicines which are readily available in the West and allow the disease to at least be controlled.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:18 / 07.04.08
And isn't it really the ultimate in arrogance to suggest another's opinion is totally incapable of support? Precisely the kind of mindset I say is damaging to us all.

Short answer, no. Long answer, no but with a footnote about what one means when one speaks of "support". Can your position be defended? Yes, you have been doing so throughout the course of this thread (albeit badly). Can it be supported by evidence, either scientific or otherwise? No.
 
 
Saturn's nod
17:25 / 07.04.08
Such 'common sense' deductions and suppositions cannot be supported scientifically but what I am saying is that this should not mean they are not valid or of value. Scientific method is only the superior form of logic and rational to the scientist. There are other ways of thinking and other beliefs systems which may be excluded by the mass media and official doctrine but it is only because they claim moral superiority that they nervously and angrily ridicule and dismiss out of hand.

It's true there are other ways of thinking. Scientific breakthroughs are often anecdotally the product of dreams and relaxation time. Science is a human activity and as such I think it's totally reasonable to argue that it has both intuitive and rational components. My own model for how such works is that the rationality of statistics, repeatable experimentation and so on is the natural complement to the intuitive wholistic dreamlike 'right-brained' consciousness from which hypotheses, and new ways of seeing, arise.

What I find special about science and critical thinking as human endeavours is that in undertaking them we are collectively attempting to weigh and measure the stories, connections, hypotheses that we dream up. The important scientific facts are the ones which are found to be robust in experimentation regardless of the identity of the investigator. That is an argument for inclusivity in science - (mainly white) women entering primatology research for example (Harraway and all that) in the twentieth century overturned the findings of previous generations of scientists by introducing reflexivity into their observations of the social behaviour of the primates they worked with. That has had a huge benefit to the robustness and hence the usefulness and repeatability of findings in that discipline.

In the dreamlike and wholistic consciousness of the right brain, we make all kinds of connections but - the way I see it - some are weak and some are strong. I am interested in asking questions about what makes a pattern strong. Some patterns are evanescent, others allow huge leaps forward in huge health and wellbeing. At least with scientific process a weak idea can be further weakened by its failure to explain observations. Not without cost, because we monkeys are biased towards seeing patterns and holding onto the ones we are emotionally invested in, so progress is throttled down to the speed with which old scientists with good funding routes die.

But it remains true as I see it that a careful collective endeavour to establish which patterns are robust and well-constructed and which are ill-founded is the best hope we have for peace and justice. The way I see it none of us perceives as clearly as we can come to do collectively by engaging in a process of communicating and reflecting about our experiences. Science as I see it is a collection of so-far strong observations, which should be repeatable regardless of the identity of the observers. I perceive that endeavour as being tied together with good mental health and also as being a foundation of democracy. I want a world where the many engage in decision-making on the basis of clear thinking and robust investigations.

I see a difference in kind between

word-weaving patterns - which may illuminate sub- or semi-conscious processes - e.g. Mary Daly is awesome at this (but look how much emphasis she puts onto intellectual rigour in her writing and teaching!)

and

experimentally robust patterns - for example the pasteurian explanation that food goes bad because living organisms break it down, which is leant on for canning and bottling every day and has a consequence of explaining how supplies of food can be stored by those methods over long periods of time.

It's not that word-woven patterns have less validity but that as more people look into them, there is a possibility that they will evaporate, as well as a possibility that they will be found robust. I draw a strong distinction between those which have been found very robust (e.g. peer reviewed science which I can follow and repeat the methodology of) - and those which are largely unexplored and certainly untested (of which it is best to make no claims - a form of unconfirmed personal gnosis.)

I suppose I have a very strong preference for hearing the reasoning behind an idea, because it can illuminate the duration and intensity of the investigation supporting the conclusion.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
18:08 / 07.04.08
Dayum!! You got us there, trixta sista!
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
20:08 / 07.04.08
The Nolte and Flyboy Minstrel show will be back after the following message.

I've heard numerous people, on this board, in the real world and in academia claim that there are other ways for looking at the world apart from science. Fair enough for some things, since a scientist may say that the world was created from a exploding pea-sized ball of matter while a theist may say that the pea-sized ball of matter was a firecracker lit by God. However, where are the dissenting voices concerning the basics of mathematics? Who would argue that two plus two equal five? Who disagrees with science on the boiling point of water or the germ theory of disease? Are there really people who believe in Dra- no wait, forget that one.
And what of logic and reasoning? Who would disagree with the statement 'All apples are fruit and all fruit grows on trees so apples must grow on trees'? Certainly, logic, like science, has many controversial and challenging aspects still up for debate but there is still a solid core around which the contestable concepts orbit.
In short, who is challenging not just tiny and relatively superficial parts of the logical-scientific narrative (whether the universe is six thousand years old or sixteen billion for example) but the whole lot? Or, to put it more bluntly, if logic and science are strictly male creations, what is the female alternative?

Oh, and I'm still waiting for Supersister to explain what me and everybody else with a Y chromosome are going to die from and when.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:31 / 07.04.08
Who would argue that two plus two equal five?

That's not science. QED.
 
 
Shrug
21:56 / 07.04.08
Well, there have been academic works which examine the militaristic/sexual/penetrative use of language in medical studies of AIDS and the (scientific) pitfalls/resultant deficit of understanding in doing so. Similarly there are studies in relation to how AIDS has been used as a means of policing desire amongst minority communities / ethnicities / sexualities. Or, indeed, in relation to how the discourses surrounding AIDS have been used to reinforce previously constructed, often specious, bigoted and damaging, views of these communities / ethnicities / sexualities. And, again, there are pitfalls/ideological effects of taking an etiologically focused path wherein for one homosexuals are not only referred to as the ones with AIDS/HIV but AIDS/HIV itself is homosexualized to a degree wherein it damages wider preventative measures and educational iniatives.

Equally, the media of most countries, as well as the governmentally based research of most countries has at one time explicitly stated that the proliferation and/or emergence of AIDS had its source in a foreign country. Sontag/Bersani/Crimp (amongst others) have published some work relating to AIDS as allegory and the ease of recognising it as a foreign invader in less figurative terms. A kind of pass the parcel blame game that leads nowhere except increased aggression toward different communities.

So, really, there are arguments to be had in relation to the negative effects of certain dominant discourses in relation to the AIDS virus (science being one of them at times) , although, I'm not sure you're making the right ones, Supersister, or even going about it in the right way. There's a gap of reasoning you seem to be falling through rather than stepping over and you've yet to examine (in thread, at least) particularities of what you disagree with specifically within the dominant discourse you're challenging (other than it being wholly under the agency of the white male patriarchy). Unless you're very objectively trying to make a point regarding grand narratives / meta-narratives while using shaky examples.

I hope I'm not somehow missing the point in saying this?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
22:01 / 07.04.08
I swear on the unholy apparatus that keeps Haus' brain alive, there was a post by Supersister before mine that said simply "none", that musta been deleted. So, in no way was my post aimed at aim for joviality's post now immediately preceding me. She speaks STRONG TRUTH, she does.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:42 / 09.04.08
Or, to put it more bluntly, if logic and science are strictly male creations, what is the female alternative?

This being a good point. It would be really good if we could drop the whole "women = not reasonable" thing, especially considering all the important female scientists.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
17:27 / 09.04.08
Painting and dancing are obviously intrinsically female. Wait, no, not painting, a woman could never do what Bruegel did. Dancing and playing the piano. Wait, no because Fred Astaire obviously carried Ginger Rogers and loads of men play the piano really well. Erm... men are just better at everything I guess.
 
 
eye landed
18:28 / 09.04.08
dragons, as described in this thread, are a religious concept-- a matter of faith. we cant prove that there were no dragons in the 13th century (or whenever), we can only induce that there were none, because we have no currently credited fossil record of them. (im not going to say you cant prove a negative, because i did my clarity research before i wrote this, but as the pdf says, 'inductive arguments won’t give us certainty about anything at all, positive or negative'.)

but i find the following argument equally strong: since we can prove that dragons/dinosaurs existed at some point (65 MYA), and were present in the fossil record for a longer period of time than they have been absent (since), they probably existed outside of the period during which we have a fossil record. whether this extended into the 13th century is highly dubious, but less dubious is that a few giant reptilian species survived the meteoric fiat (an absurd scientific article of faith if i ever heard one) and were hunted to extinction by early humans, along with giant ground sloths and woolly mammoths. im not saying i believe it, just that it is as credible as the idea that a celestial visitor wiped them all out in one stroke.

since any suggestion of negative proof is clearly rhetoric, the denial of dragons only seems reasonable in this thread because its the more popular faith. like sasquatches and alien abductions, most of us dont have any experience one way or the other, so its hard to tell when either 'side' is taking the piss or acting out of dark ideology.

i bring the discussion back to dragons because, firstly, i am a dragon devotee of the religious variety, and secondly, because the argument here is similar to the more pressing one about AIDS. the main difference is that the AIDS issue involves thousands of people dying, and a resolution might save some of them.

as an allegory, imagine that the dread wyrm Aidz has kidnapped your sister/daughter/wife/boytoy and is going to eat hir. you go to the local authorities and request assistance in saving your loved one. unfortunately, instead of sending a party of armed heroes to your aid, they convene a meeting to discuss whether or not dragons are real. ho hum. eventually, they realize the need for action. but instead of sending the armed heroes after the dragon, they send them to preach to your neighbors about the importance of staying indoors and avoiding people with queer reptilian eyes (because they are shapeshifted dragons). this serves the authoritiess purpose of keeping poor people afraid of something external. and it serves the dragons purpose, because when ze eats someone, the community blames the victim for not being safe.

if AIDS was started as a prank (like how someone tried to start anthrax in usa in 2002 or whenever), then its barely relevant anymore. clearly, AIDS is now spreading through human contact, not snidely whiplash jabbing people with syringes. reducing poverty and increasing education will help the problem (weaken the dragon) and are worthwhile goals even if the dragon does turn out to be imaginary.

sorry for the long post that i now realize does not address the op.

Who would argue that two plus two equal five?

That's not science. QED.


indeed, non-traditional arithmetic can be explored with quantum electrodynamics. but thats science, bro. (wink)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:34 / 09.04.08
as an allegory, imagine that the dread wyrm Aidz has kidnapped your sister/daughter/wife/boytoy and is going to eat hir.

Perhaps it would be useful if you scrambled the password and email address in your profile.
 
  

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