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Bigotry and reality

 
  

Page: (1)234

 
 
JOY NO WRY
09:57 / 21.05.07
With the exception of occasional newbies and rare trolls, I think Barbelith does pretty well, compared to society as a whole, on the equality front. I would go so far as to say that generally there is, atop a practical understanding of equale ability, a commitment to the principal of equality itself. It is this that I wish to examine.

As far as I have seen, here and elsewhere, bigoted arguments come in three flavours. The first is that of 'common sense', and tends to be dealt with swiftly with a more sensible explanation of the way things work. The second is that of absolute authority, e.g. religion, and -if we can bring ourselves to face it at all - we deal with it either through discrediting the authority, or by reinterpretting the message, as in various theological arguments. The third is that which relies on some kind of appeal to science, and the response is naturally to trump it with some superiour study - something that isn't usually much of a problem because the science we're faced with tends to be pretty dodgy in some way or another.

But what if it wasn't? What if some peice of profound evidence was presented that completely overturned your understanding of race, or sex? What if it completely convinced you that white, European men were in fact superior to all other beings?

I can't imagine that, having seen the inhumanity that results from institutionalised or even individual bigotry, I would abandon my commitment to it as an ideal in such a case; but is that true of everyone? I have been considering this, as a thought experiement, for a day or so, and I'd like to hear how you all think about it.

If, in writing this, I have made dangerous assumptions or been particularly gauche, please point it out - I'm open to education. I do realise that any clumsy examination of bigotry can be offensive, and I do hope to avoid that.
 
 
Quantum
10:36 / 21.05.07
What if some peice of profound evidence was presented that completely overturned your understanding of race, or sex? What if it completely convinced you that white, European men were in fact superior to all other beings?

The thing is, I can't even imagine what that evidence might look like. The wealth of evidence for 'superiority' being a human construct is overwhelming, and the views espoused by bigots are so obviously self-serving that I simply can't imagine a situation where any evidence could prove that there was some objective superiority of one race/sex/etc. over another.
Let's say there was such a study though, then equality becomes ensuring that people who are less fortunate are supported enough that they have the same opportunities as the 'superior' people. I'm thinking of braille on bottles or the availability of wheelchair access, for example, although able bodied people are 'superior' at seeing and walking that doesn't make them better. Equality is really a principle based on treating everyone with respect IMHO, not an hypothesis that everybody is equivalent, so even if there were convincing evidence for Welsh people having an innate intellectual superiority then it wouldn't affect the remit of equal opportunities, we'd just have an obligation to teach Welsh to everyone so we all had the same chance to be clever, or whatever.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:57 / 21.05.07
More to the point, what if it turned out that cigarettes were good for you? What if the law of gravity is a dud and it's really fairies holding our stuff on the floor? What if the moon landings were fake and the Earth is flat? What then, eh, eh?

What I'm trying to say is, I'm not really clear what you want to do with this notion. I find it difficult to conceptualise the kind of alternate reality in which we're supposed to be working. For a start, to whom is this being proved--I mean, how are you going to convince me that I'm not capable of logical thought?

Bluntly, dude, that's got to be some special kind of study right there. It's got to be a scientific study so well-constructed that it could contradict the whole of my experience and knowledge (including a whole raft of other scientific studies, I might point out). We'd also have to assume that this study was so perfect it could never be contradicted by future research. That's beyond the realms of science and into, y'know, the Word of God. Divine revelation with all angels and trumpets and shit.

At best--at the absolute outside--I can conceive of a study that showed a couple of IQ points to one group's advantage or another, or a vague tendancy to do a bit better at sums than drawing, that sort of thing.

Even assuming such a study could be realised--well, what of it? Why drop the ideal of equal opportunities? It's an opportunity, not a free fucking ride. If eg women are incapable of rational thought we'll all flunk science anyway, so what's to be lost by giving us the chance to prove our innate inability?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:02 / 21.05.07
If, in writing this, I have made dangerous assumptions or been particularly gauche, please point it out - I'm open to education.

'K then--in case I was unclear--dude you do realise that the way you've framed it your whole goddamn topic is predicated on the idea that the person reading it is a white male European having stuff about those other guys over there proved to him with sciences?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
12:44 / 21.05.07
Yeah. I would really question why you'd need to go through this kind of thought experiment. What do you get out of it? Except, and forgive me if I presume, the fuzzy nice feeling of finally concluding that even though a piece of watertight scientific evidence might exist to tell you that nazism was right, you might still desist from acting upon that information. Which is really just about you.

I can't see this thread going anywhere good anytime soon. Also, Talks to strangers is right. Please don't assume that the only people reading this are white straight men.
 
 
Quantum
13:55 / 21.05.07
Here's an example- males as a group can throw faster and further than females. So what?

(from this article which says The study, which weighs a vast range of research evidence examining everything from verbal reasoning and spatial perception to aggression and frequency of smiling, concludes that in 78% of respects the psychological differences between men and women are either non-existent or small. Girls are as good at maths as boys, for example, and boys in turn are as likely as girls to suffer low self-esteem in adolescence. Gender differences in moral reasoning and moral orientation are also small, as are levels of life satisfaction and happiness.)
 
 
This Sunday
13:58 / 21.05.07
As has been said before, equal opportunity, which I tend to call civility, is a conscious thing, so that even if you completely believe (person because they are type X) is incapable or sub-capable? You keep your mouth shut ninety-seven percent of the time, and then ask yourself how you got sold on that track in the first place.

As to the 'what if women couldn't think logically' just because... wow, that'd be a heavy battery of tests to prove that one, and even proved I think anyone more than halfway sensible and not covering their own ass would have to question the logic of the test and the findings. Of course, I look out at the world, and think about anyone I talked to yesterday (or trying to write a review of In the Break, which is so unassumingly sexist it hurts), and the idea that women can't think logically or functionally does seem to be disturbingly pervasive, even if the perpetuation of it really does seem to come from an ass-covering operation.

A bitter part of me wants to ask why you think the super-proof data would change things for people. People who act under these precepts, seem to have never cared if the proof was a letter signed by Jesus Christ, Joseph Goebbels, or as specious as that The Bell Curve book. Instead, on the constructive end: How many people would react to this documentation in a non-aggressive fashion? Because there isn't a document and I'm already pissed off.

In a country that loves eugenics every fifteen years or so, living my entire life under that insidious Capt. Pratt (of the Carlisle Indian School), 'Kill the Indian in him, and save the man.' quote, spending a fair portion of time where 'white' is the worst thing you could call somebody, I'm predisposed to say if such documentation did exist, well, them's fighting words. And nothing more.

There's more people who aren't straight white males in the world, than are. The only thing, presumably, straight white men have over other folks at this point would be insanely powerful weapons and money (which probably qualifies under the first), and in the States, a lot of the good land. Yes, I'm bitter. And those straight white men with their finger on the trigger of nuclear absurdity? They're not going to share that power with, well, the majority of even straight white men. A lot of straight white men have been acting under a halo of superiority in one form or another for a long time, and it seems there may be a genetic superiority at the conquest/empire thing, there. But it just seems that way, when you willingly ignore all the actually decent, good white men. Or future ones.

And on a purely selfish level, I'd want to know what the study says on crossbreeding. Human equivalent of a chow chow? Live your life out as a ligon, and be the better-looking counterpart to a more famous novelty animal? Mule? Might as well have (the illusion of) a genetic excuse for being stubborn, if I can get the paperwork to prove inferiority. Fair's fair.
 
 
Quantum
14:18 / 21.05.07
Could we change the abstract of the thread please? "What if women couldn't think logically and black people were stupid?" is needlessly inflammatory I think.
 
 
illmatic
14:19 / 21.05.07
I would really question why you'd need to go through this kind of thought experiment. What do you get out of it?

It kind of reminds me of unpleasant thought challenges that friends would come up with when I was a kid - "would you rather have all you teeth pulled out with no anasthetic or see your mum get shot?"

What if it completely convinced you that white, European men were in fact superior to all other beings?

But I can't conceive of that. The whole notion of one human beings superiority to another is spurious anyway. How do you prove that one human being is "superior" to another anyhow? On the basis of utility? Wealth? And superior in what field? In which way? What are they best at? IQ tests? Fighting? Dancing? I can't imagine what this evidence would look like.

The ideas we have about equality aren't simple matters of provability and scientific discourse - they are the current end point of complex dialogues and counter dialogues which our society has been having for hundreds of years, which embrace a lot of areas beyond the sciences.

Please don't assume that the only people reading this are white straight men

I'm sure that everyone people posting here is a beneficiary of some kind of privlege in some areas, just by virtue of having internet access - we're all relatively privileged Westerners. However, not all of us are going to benefit in equal ways in all situations. If you are frequently disadvantaged or disregarded because of gender, race or sexuality (or any other category), you might have less patience for this as a thought experiment, simply because it mirrors ongoing struggles and the type of shit you have to put up with anyway.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:31 / 21.05.07
Well for one thing race is a construct, it's a social divide based on appearance and not a scientific one. I.E. the only genetic thing that all "black" people have in common is looking like what is called "a black person". Same goes for every other race you'd care to mention.

I'd hedge a bet that's true for religion as well. I don't see any reason why two people who happen to be Christians ought to be thought of as having exactly equivalent points of view/values - again the only thing they have in common is that they identify/are identified as "Christians". Anyone? That sound right?

Sex? I don't know entirely. I'm aware that there appear to be some physical differences, but then I've heard of societies where the women are taller/stronger than the men or where there is no difference at all - so I suspect that any physical differences we see as "natural" were probably bred in at some point in the stone age (i.e. strong women not being allowed to have children). As for thinking logically - well duh. If you ban women from all education systems for thousands of years, if you get yourself to beleiving that letting women into education would be against Christ's plan for the universe, then they're not going to have had a chance to read the books that teach you how to think logically (I think if you got a "natural" (pre-culture) man and woman in an environment, who had never read any books, they would exhibit an equivalent level of logical thought).
 
 
Quantum
14:33 / 21.05.07
To flip this upside down, what if some piece of profound evidence was presented that completely overturned our understanding of race or sex? What if it completely convinced us that white, European men were in fact NOT superior to all other beings? Proof that human beings are much more alike than different?

What might that be like?
 
 
Quantum
14:35 / 21.05.07
they're not going to have had a chance to read the books that teach you how to think logically

Sorry, what? Logical thought is learned from books? And, are you saying that women *don't* think logically?!? Again I say *?!?*
 
 
Princess
15:03 / 21.05.07
'K then--in case I was unclear--dude you do realise that the way you've framed it your whole goddamn topic is predicated on the idea that the person reading it is a white male European having stuff about those other guys over there proved to him with sciences? -TTS

I was reading it from that viewpoint, ish. Thanks for naming the beast, TTS. Easier to face my shit when you've dropped it so explicitly in my lap. If you know what I mean.

Allecto, on that whole "race as construct" thing, I'm not sure if that's entirely true. I'd been led to believe that different ethnic groups did have slighty different medical needs at time. eg I've been told that African American men where more likely to suffer from coronary problems due to salt retention.

Although I can't find any evidence for that right now. So it might be untrue. Will research later.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:18 / 21.05.07
Sorry, what? Logical thought is learned from books? And, are you saying that women *don't* think logically?!? Again I say *?!?*

No, I didn't mean that, sorry. I meant that

a) All human beings have logical thought

but

b) Logical thought much easier if you have access to store of education/already done arguments/acess to situations where logical thought is enouraged

which means that

c) because women were barred from these situations and encouraged to do house work or sit around and look pretty, thus was created a situation where it appeared that they were thinking less logically. When even if they were it had nothing to do with biology and everything to do with conditioning. Note "even if they were". I think it's a myth, frankly.
 
 
This Sunday
15:25 / 21.05.07
This may not be what anyone else means, but for me 'race as a construct' comes from the fact that, overall, the things we use as racial qualifiers do not, in fact, have any kind of continental linkage or even one over the whole of any specific 'race'. Thin/thick lips, big/small noses, even shading of skin or medical concerns tend to vary greatly within a race or be shared by portions of races without any sort of immediate miscegination.

For example, I hear a lot, that my double-row of teeth, the scalloped backs of the front teeth, and the way I hold my feet naturally are racial qualifiers. Dentists point the teeth stuff out occasionally as if offering solace, which is kinda funny, if they were yanking bits out of my head or fixing filling mistakes. However, these same racial qualifiers apply to a small but significant percentage of Japanese people, without applying to similar percentages of Lakota or Chinese. You can't do a height or weight thing effectively. Essentially, the breakdown has to be considerably more specific and in smaller groups, and removed from a geographic or inhereted shared-trait sensibility, before it even starts to be workable, and by then, you've obliterated what 'race' is mostly used for.
 
 
Peach Pie
18:16 / 21.05.07


Here's an example- males as a group can throw faster and further than females. So what?

Did anyone else have an instinctive feeling of "being able to throw farther is just *better*", here. Throwing farther than a man is unlikely to be able to help me in anyway shape or form. I'd still like to. Don't ask why.
 
 
*
19:17 / 21.05.07
To flip this upside down, what if some piece of profound evidence was presented that completely overturned our understanding of race or sex? What if it completely convinced us that white, European men were in fact NOT superior to all other beings? Proof that human beings are much more alike than different?

What might that be like?


Pure gold, Quantum Catweazle.

Joy, the point is that the thing you conjecture is not conjecture. In reality, by far most white people think white people are superior to people of color, and by far most men think men are superior to women. A hundred years or so of battling prejudice has led people to realize that making this kind of thinking evident will lead to social consequences. That doesn't mean that people don't still think that way, it means that someone who is white—myself for instance—will reveal my white superiority complex through things like disdaining culturally Black patterns of speech because I characterize them as uneducated. It means that someone who is a man—myself for instance—will reveal my male superiority complex by disdaining things that I think of as "feminine" because they seem less "practical".

So this whatif game you propose isn't very interesting.
 
 
Ticker
19:38 / 21.05.07
I'd like to throw in with Quants, can you please change the summary for this thread? It keeps stabbing in me in the eye everytime I read the list of recently updated threads. I have to deal enough with people presenting these things as truths and responding to them. If you can say it without the eye stabbing I'd appreciate it.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:02 / 21.05.07
[+] [-] Original abstract preserved for posterity:
 
 
miss wonderstarr
05:50 / 22.05.07
White, European men are, arguably, inferior at appreciating and recognising their cultural position ~ recognising what it means to be a white, European male (and the privilege that goees with it) rather than assuming that as the default, norm position, and only culturally-labelling and examining other groups, with the assumption that white male Europeanness is all tickety-boo and stable.

Hence "gendered" is often assumed to mean "female", and "ethnic" often assumed to mean "non-white"... and debates about "sexuality" usually assumed, I think, to mean non-heterosexuality.

So, white European men are worse at something significant. What's to be done about that?

Not expressed very well, I think, because it's early for me.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
21:29 / 01.10.07
This hits, albeit tangentially, on a key concept that i think is often missed by much of the left in the desire to be seen as unambiguously pro-equality, but which, IMO, actually hurts the cause of equality by its absence: the idea that equal does not mean the same.

The tendency of socialist-leaning people (with completely laudable intentions) to proclaim that "there is no difference between women and men", "black people and white people are exactly the same under the skin", etc, can actually lead into denial of biological realities (an example close to my heart is the total inability of many such people to get their heads round gender dysphoria and gender reassignment). IMO, this simply gives fuel to the right/anti-equality types, by giving them the opportunity to say "TEH LOONY LEFTIEZ ARE IGNORIN COMMON SENS!!!!111!!!2"

The equality movement most keenly affected by this is the disabled people's equality movement. I'll quote feminist and disability rights activist Jenny Morris (from Pride Against Prejudice: Transforming Attitudes To Disability, p.17):

A feminist photographer once told me that her motivation formounting an exhibition on lesbian mothers was "to show that lesbians didn't have two heads!" The point is that disabled people do, or at least the social equivalent. Our bodies generally look and behave differently from most other people's (even if we have an invisible physical disability there is usually something about the way our bodies behave which gives our difference away)... If we have a learning disability the way we interact with others usually reveals our difference.

To respond to allegations, say, that women have less capacity for logical thought than men, with "no, that's not true, Scientific Study X says women are just as logical as men, if not more so" is, whether it's true or not, IMO not helpful. Why? Because of the people who it marginalises and even justifies the oppression of - those (whether women or men) who actually have less capacity for logical thinking. To maintain that absolutely all people have an absolutely equal capacity for logical thinking would be as manifestly absurd as to maintain that all people are exactly the same height.

As a person with a mental disability, I do not want a world in which, for example, equality for physically disabled people is predicated on the idea that "inside those odd-looking bodies, their minds are just the same as all of ours" - because, implicitly, that says that, as my mind isn't "just the same", I don't deserve equality. So, if a scientific study did show that, say, black people have lower levels of certain types of mental abilities (I won't say "lower IQ", because IQ itself has been shown to be a skewed and misleading concept) than white people, then that would not in any way change my belief that black people and white people are of equal worth and deserve equal rights.

A belief in equality, IMO, needs a stronger foundation than that of science. This might seem counter-intuitive, as in the West we are accustomed to science having an authority of the "objective" and "factual" which trumps the subjectivity of other kinds of beliefs. However, the key thing about science is that it's disprovable. I don't want the social principle of equality between genders, races, sexual orientations or whatever to be based on scientific ideas which could be overturned simply by the finding of new evidence. I want a principle of equality strong enough to withstand even incontrovertible proof (if such were ever to arise) that group X is "inferior" in respect A to group Y.

What such a principle can be based on, i'm not 100% sure. It obviously could be based on a deontological ethical belief; how to fit it into a more atheistic/rationalistic worldview is a little problematic, although i think the ecological concept of biodiversity being valuable for its own sake might possibly hold the key... however, i might just be trying to "reverse-engineer" my own beliefs here...

Of course there's the whole issue (and it's a HUGE issue) of science itself being biased, and exposing bias in cience is always important, from a scientific as well as a moral/political standpoint, because bias (of any sort) will lead to inaccurate science. But i don't like moral or political ideas being based solely on science, simply because of science's falsifiability - and i think "the left" (for want of a better word) shouldn't get bogged down in decrying particular examples of inaccurate science, but might be better off constructing a political and ethical principle for equality which is essentially "science-proof"...
 
 
Lurid Archive
08:38 / 02.10.07
So, as many of you know, I'm a big fan of science and it seems clear to me that a committment to equality is not dependent on some scietific underpinning. That said, the original post is probably motivated by the debate around The Bell Curve and I think it is here that lots of unfounded assumptions are running around. The whole idea that science is providing water-tight, unequivocal answers to these sorts of loaded questions is a fallacy. If anything, the most convincing science shows that there are many fundamental problems in trying to correlate race with IQ, say. Have a read of this to get an idea of this. The concluding paragraphs are worth a look,

So: Do I really believe that the heritability of IQ is zero? Well, I hope by this point I've persuaded you that's not a well-posed question. What I hope you really want to ask is something like: Do I think there are currently any genetic variations which, holding environment fixed to within some reasonable norms for prosperous, democratic, industrial or post-industrial societies, would tend to lead to differences in IQ? There my answer is "yes, of course". I've mentioned phenylketonuria and hypothyroidism already, and many other in-born errors of metabolism also lead to cognitive deficits, including lower IQ, at least in certain environments.

...

I suspect this answer will still not satisfy some people, who really want to know about differences between people who do not have significant developmental disorders. Here, my honest answer would be that I presently have no evidence one way or the other. If you put a gun to my head and asked me to guess, and I couldn't tell what answer you wanted to hear, I'd say that my suspicion is that there are, mostly on the strength of analogy to other areas of biology where we know much more. I would then — cautiously, because you have a gun to my head — suggest that you read, say, Dobzhansky on the distinction between "human equality" and "genetic identity", and ask why it is so important to you that IQ be heritable and unchangeable.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:21 / 02.10.07
Throwing farther than a man is unlikely to be able to help me in anyway shape or form. I'd still like to. Don't ask why.

The problem with the original premise is that if you practice throwing every day for a year and you throw correctly, in the most scientific way then you could throw further then the vast majority of people. It's completely invalid to ask if a man who never throws anything would have more of a natural inclination toward it.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
09:45 / 02.10.07
Haven't heard of Dobzhansky. Will go check him out...
 
 
grant
13:49 / 02.10.07
The whole idea that science is providing water-tight, unequivocal answers to these sorts of loaded questions is a fallacy.

Why is this not obvious?? WHY?
 
 
Supersister
15:55 / 05.04.08
Bigoted views are utterly substantiated by science, no 'what if' about it, and this is a major problem, if not the single biggest problem, perpetuating suffering throughout the world today.

It is entirely correct to say that by current standards, women are less rational and black people are less intelligent. But what this reflects is that current scientific standards are unrepresentative of these groups. In my eyes, science does little more than represent the demands of an excessively vocal, paranoid and aggressive minority group who have become skilled at persuading the majority of their intellectual superiority but whose agenda is dangerous and destructive. Their sole motivation is their own survival.

Science reflects the collective observations and proclamations of a spokesgroup nominated and held up by common agreement to define the acceptable parameters of current thinking within society. Their methodology requires that a certain type of information gathering exercise is carried out in advance of this definition; the study or experiment, and that the information collected; the evidence, is seen to support the proposed theory according to the commonly accepted superior thought processes of rationale and logic.

Since at the current time the overwhelming majority composition of this nominated group is white and male, white males set the agenda as regards what it is that constitutes scientific truth. Arguably, there is some common acceptance even amongst them of a need for 'equality', which would require that their constitution ought over time to change to become more representative of humanity as a whole; integration and power sharing. However, a paradox arises in that, if true equality were sought, and currently accepted norms of rationale and logic changed in order to reflect the norms of the new voices the spokesgroup wished to include, according to their own theories of genetics the current group members might cease to exist. Clearly the group acts out of self preservation in promoting theories which discourage their own reproduction with black females and the reproduction of black males with white females. Hence the theories of 'AIDS', economic 'scarcity', 'endangered species', the obsession with dinosaurs and the promotion of violent conflict as a social good. Scientists are obviously secretly terrified of their own extinction.

At present, it seems to me, the situation is such that a non typical member can gain entry to the spokesgroup, but only if he or she is prepared to adopt their way of thinking. Perhaps if there was some official recognition of the fragility of the status of the white male, this might change. Personally, I don't think this can happen fast enough for the good of everyone else because I for one am fed up of the nonsense. Why should we all suffer on account of their submissive genes?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
16:15 / 05.04.08
Clearly the group acts out of self preservation in promoting theories which discourage their own reproduction with black females and the reproduction of black males with white females. Hence the theories of 'AIDS', economic 'scarcity', 'endangered species', the obsession with dinosaurs and the promotion of violent conflict as a social good. Scientists are obviously secretly terrified of their own extinction.

I like to wear a hat made of tin foil sometimes, too. But, as much as I might want to fill in fellow members of Barbelith (because some of them don't seem to be in my income bracket) I try and keep what the hat tells me to myself.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
16:32 / 05.04.08
Maybe I shouldn't though. This -

At present, it seems to me, the situation is such that a non typical member can gain entry to the spokesgroup, but only if he or she is prepared to adopt their way of thinking. Perhaps if there was some official recognition of the fragility of the status of the white male, this might change. Personally, I don't think this can happen fast enough for the good of everyone else because I for one am fed up of the nonsense. Why should we all suffer on account of their submissive genes?

Has articulated a lot of thoughts that I've been having lately. Dark, angry thoughts. To get over them, I've been putting the old chap in the (mechanised) shoe-shiner, but I don't know how much longer this is going to work out for.
 
 
Supersister
16:33 / 05.04.08
Is this your way of telling me that my opinions place me amongst the ranks of the mentally ill? In accordance with the agreed applied scientific criteria for the definition of such illness, I can only suppose. I omitted to mention psychiatry as the ultimate manifestation of paranoid white male oppression, acting as it does to ensure the quick, clean and effective silencing of any dissenting voice. Encouraging the promotion of the conservative 'hypothesis' over the more radical 'delusion', for example. In any case, as an advocate for transparency and freedom of information, I would happily allow you to enter my mind and so would have no need for the hat.

Or maybe you are suggesting that these ideas of mine are in fact old hat and you are part of a well organised and highly motivated group who are leading the rebellion? That would be a relief.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:57 / 05.04.08
Bigoted views are utterly substantiated by science, no 'what if' about it, and this is a major problem, if not the single biggest problem, perpetuating suffering throughout the world today.

What exactly do you mean here? That you personally believe the views actually expressed by scientists (that many-headed yet monolithic hive entity) to be bigoted? Or that the kinds of veiws sketched out above (racism, misogyny, etc.) are substantiated by science?

It is entirely correct to say that by current standards, women are less rational and black people are less intelligent.

Indeed? I'm sure you'll be happy to back that assertion up with a few references from mainstream science; regretfully I'm unfamiliar with the research on which you base your claim. My understanding was that within the scientific community, these ideas are widely regarded as total bollocks.

But what this reflects is that current scientific standards are unrepresentative of these groups. In my eyes, science does little more than represent the demands of an excessively vocal, paranoid and aggressive minority group who have become skilled at persuading the majority of their intellectual superiority but whose agenda is dangerous and destructive. Their sole motivation is their own survival.

Yes. That's exactly it. Anyone who embraces a hard science discipline is motivated purely by greed and a desire for the privilige conferred by the male elite. No-one ever embarks on a career in research out of passion for hir subject. After all, it's not as if researchers earn less money or have less prestige than (say) people working in the financial sector. Oh wait, yes it is.

Science reflects the collective observations and proclamations of a spokesgroup nominated and held up by common agreement to define the acceptable parameters of current thinking within society.

In which case, how come the findings of researchers are often very much at odds with "current thinking?" Could it not possibly be that what you're interpreting as the voice of the Borg Collective is in fact a heavily warped and twisted message gleaned from media which reflect not the veiws of scientists but the interests of the wealthy and powerful?

Their methodology requires that a certain type of information gathering exercise is carried out in advance of this definition; the study or experiment, and that the information collected; the evidence, is seen to support the proposed theory according to the commonly accepted superior thought processes of rationale and logic.

That post seems marvellously free of rationale and logic, so well done there.

Since at the current time the overwhelming majority composition of this nominated group is white and male, white males set the agenda as regards what it is that constitutes scientific truth.

There is, arguably, some truth to this. The sciences are still very much dominated by white men, and this will inevitably have some sort of effect on research output. However, your take on what that effect might be appears to have no basis on reality whatsoever.

Arguably, there is some common acceptance even amongst them of a need for 'equality', which would require that their constitution ought over time to change to become more representative of humanity as a whole; integration and power sharing.

And this is in fact happening. More women are entering the sciences in the West than were entering them in previous generations. A greater varitey of ethnicities is being represented. It remains to be seen if these gains will continue, but if they do not then the culprit will be oppressive political administrations seemingly bent on trashing as many civil rights as they can. In America this is driven in a large part not by scientific rationalism but by an entirely irrational right-wing Christianity.

However, a paradox arises in that, if true equality were sought, and currently accepted norms of rationale and logic changed in order to reflect the norms of the new voices the spokesgroup wished to include, according to their own theories of genetics the current group members might cease to exist.

I don't know of any accepted scientific study which postulates the imminent extinction of the white race. This is the stuff of fevered racist imagination, not of science.

Clearly the group acts out of self preservation in promoting theories which discourage their own reproduction with black females and the reproduction of black males with white females.

Actually I tend to find people in the sciences are more liberal and less likely to chuck a fit over mixed-race families. Again, this is not a rational position and is espoused by no rational person. Phoney theories cooked up at a KKK meeting are not the same as actual science, no matter how much its proponants would like them to be.

Hence the theories of 'AIDS', economic 'scarcity', 'endangered species', the obsession with dinosaurs and the promotion of violent conflict as a social good. Scientists are obviously secretly terrified of their own extinction.

Good gracious me. I had no idea that "endangered species" were merely theoretical. Do you know, I thought we were actually living in a time where species were being driven to extinction at a horrific rate? Silly me! I also thought that AIDS was a real disease caused by an actual virus spread through sexual contact. I'm so happy I was wrong, I'll start having unprotected coitus with multiple partners again immediately. I also wasn't aware of the SCIENCE which states that one is more likely to get AIDS by sexing someone of a different ethnicity; I thought that SCIENCE wanted us to understand that the high rates of infection in (for example) some African nations were down to social and economic factors such as the availability of good sex education, prophylacsis and medical care. I was also under the impression that SCIENCE does not support violence as a social good. Various forms of violence may be tacitly or explicitly supported by the ruling classes, sure, but by scientists? Not so much.

I don't really know what to say about the dinosaurs.

At present, it seems to me, the situation is such that a non typical member can gain entry to the spokesgroup, but only if he or she is prepared to adopt their way of thinking.

Well... yeah. To become a scientist you have to accept the validity of the scientific method. It's a bit like saying "to join the Royal Ballet you have to accept their way of dancing" or "to become a chef you have to know how to cook."

Perhaps if there was some official recognition of the fragility of the status of the white male, this might change.

Maybe my experience is atypical but I have a hard time getting people to shut up about the bloody fragility of the status of the white male. The media is generally very keen to let us all know how fragile that status is, with lots of scare stories about asylum seekers, looney castrating feminists, and so on.

Personally, I don't think this can happen fast enough for the good of everyone else because I for one am fed up of the nonsense. Why should we all suffer on account of their submissive genes?

Wait, wait, I'm confused. I thought they were the ruling elite. Who are they submitting to? The Annukai?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
17:06 / 05.04.08
Is this your way of telling me that my opinions place me amongst the ranks of the mentally ill?

Not at all. Sorry if I gave you that impression.

Nobody cares what I think (although they might feel differently once I've finished my song!) but still, while I have a higher tolerance for hard right material than some, I think you might be going a bit too far at the moment, all the same.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
17:43 / 05.04.08
Maybe my experience is atypical but I have a hard time getting people to shut up about the bloody fragility of the status of the white male

I suppose it can seem a bit rough. To not enjoy the football, the beauty of it. Get In There! Goal!

But maybe this is because you don't really get what it's like being a bloke? A. Normal. Bloke. Have you read any of the Hornby cannon? He's quite good on what it means to be desperate, with nothing, literally nothing, left to lose.
 
 
Supersister
18:47 / 05.04.08
Mordant, since you are disingenuous, almost entirely single minded, unable to see alternate points of view and purport to speak on behalf of all rational people, I can only conclude you must yourself be a scientist. In the nicest possible way, you understand.

The difference between the Royal Ballet, everyone that cooks and SCIENCE, is that scientific method supposedly rests upon the scientist having an entirely open mind as to the outcome of his or her experiments. But as you yourself have conceded, in reality, one must first think like a scientist in order to be accepted as one. And to suggest possible alternative theories to problems, such as that AIDS may be a figment of the white male mind, is not permitted. One would be laughed out of the lab. Although it is a view commonly held amongst the elite in Africa, because they are not white males, they are easily discredited. This is the crux of the paradox.

I could go on...
 
 
Liger Null
19:05 / 05.04.08
Please don't.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:09 / 05.04.08
Best not to though, perhaps?

I understand your anger - I can't deal with those f*cking busters on 'Friends' either. Over coffee, they seem to touch each other, in weird ways.
 
  

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